From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Hello all,

I've been dabbing at some 3D stuff using OpenGL, and came across this MS webpage :

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/opengl/glloadmatrixf

The embedded image, and with it its "column first" remark, is less than helpfull/clear to me :

Where should I imagine that the X,Y,Z coordinates are at ? At the bottom
row (a3,7,11,15) or at the rightmost column (a12,13,14,15) ?

If it's supposed to be at the rightmost column (X at the top, Y and Z below it), how is it than different, especially for the above function, from a row-first notation ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

On Sun, 4/5/2026 3:34 AM, R.Wieser wrote:

Hello all,

I've been dabbing at some 3D stuff using OpenGL, and came across this MS webpage :

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/opengl/glloadmatrixf

The embedded image, and with it its "column first" remark, is less than helpfull/clear to me :

Where should I imagine that the X,Y,Z coordinates are at ? At the bottom row (a3,7,11,15) or at the rightmost column (a12,13,14,15) ?

If it's supposed to be at the rightmost column (X at the top, Y and Z below it), how is it than different, especially for the above function, from a row-first notation ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

There's a wiki, something about how they're stored in memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row-_and_column-major_order

Here is a demo of transformation matricies and their effect here.

"OpenGL - There Is Only One Coordinate Space"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQNU5XICGvw

Paul
--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Paul,

Where should I imagine that the X,Y,Z coordinates are at ? At the
bottom
row (a3,7,11,15) or at the rightmost column (a12,13,14,15) ?

...

There's a wiki, something about how they're stored in memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row-_and_column-major_order

The row- and colum-first ordering of the arrays is rather self-explanatory.

What I do not know is how - or even if - they, used as 3D matrices, are different from each other.

Assuming that the row-major matrix has the coordinates at the bottom and the column-major matrix has them on the right than the way both are stored in memory is exactly the same, and *presentation wise* the matrices are just mirrored over the top-left, bottom-right diagonal.

In that case and as far as I can tell even the matrix-multiplication is the same, just with the two input-matrices swapped.

Maybe I asked/started with the wrong question :
I know that a row-major matrix has the coordinates in the bottom row.
Where does a column-major matrix have them ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

On Sun, 4/5/2026 8:39 AM, R.Wieser wrote:

Paul,

Where should I imagine that the X,Y,Z coordinates are at ? At the
bottom
row (a3,7,11,15) or at the rightmost column (a12,13,14,15) ?

...

There's a wiki, something about how they're stored in memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row-_and_column-major_order

The row- and colum-first ordering of the arrays is rather self-explanatory.

What I do not know is how - or even if - they, used as 3D matrices, are different from each other.

Assuming that the row-major matrix has the coordinates at the bottom and the column-major matrix has them on the right than the way both are stored in memory is exactly the same, and *presentation wise* the matrices are just mirrored over the top-left, bottom-right diagonal.

In that case and as far as I can tell even the matrix-multiplication is the same, just with the two input-matrices swapped.

Maybe I asked/started with the wrong question :
I know that a row-major matrix has the coordinates in the bottom row.
Where does a column-major matrix have them ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

For the first article we used, it's best to view that in a modern
browser (which I wasn't using at the time). Depending on your
browser, some of decorations render better in a good browser.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/htmKyMjx/Row-and-column-major-order-Wikipedia.png

*******

It's possible the first link here, has part of an answer for you.
They're trying to make a matrix which makes the treatment of things
more uniform, for all manner of operations. The W can be stripped off
for many purposes, after the transforms have been applied sequentially.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2465116/understanding-opengl-matrices

One thing you notice when reading threads like this, is each person
explaining the thing, has gone through a learning exercise of their own.
Notice how some of them have sufficient background, to know various
ways to develop a scheme which is not the OpenGL way. But generally,
all of them have some amount of trouble justifying all the features
of the 4x4 matrix. And you would be right to complain about this,
if you cannot even find a basic definition of the additional elements.

https://computergraphics.stackexchange.com/questions/8704/why-does-opengl-use-4d-matrices-for-everything

I have no experience with OpenGL. The only stuff I've done like this
is QDGS in the old days. I've only done one 3D scene in software,
and this was back when I still had a brain :-)

Paul


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Paul,

For the first article we used, it's best to view that in a modern
browser (which I wasn't using at the time). Depending on your
browser, some of decorations render better in a good browser.

I have *no* idea why you are bringing that up. Really. No idea.

In my initial post my first question was about where, in a column-major matrix, the coordinates are located. Why don't you just start with answering that one ?

As indicated, I *think* its in the right-most column, with X at the top. Am
I right in that ?

The SECOND question is how the row- and column-major matrices are different.

Remark: as long as I do not have an answer to the first question I won't be able to understand the answer to the second. Just imagine I assume it that the coordinates are at the four corners, while you are talking about them being in the tr,br diagonal. That won't work /at all/. :-)

By the way: that image you posted a link to ? Its 182 pixels wide, and rather unreadable - even when I scale it up.

But why did you post it ? I can see/read the webpage just fine. It just doesn't answer any of my posted questions.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Paul,

For the first article we used, it's best to view that in a modern
browser (which I wasn't using at the time). Depending on your
browser, some of decorations render better in a good browser.

I have *no* idea why you are bringing that up. Really. No idea.

Maybe don't post OT stuff in an inappropriate forum, then. There must be
plenty of places where you can ask on-topic questions about openGL or
graphics matrix manipulations. Like stackoverflow.

--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Chris,

Maybe don't post OT stuff in an inappropriate forum,

I didn't. I posted in a few newsgroups.

must be plenty of places where you can ask on-topic questions

Its always remarkable that people complain, but somehow "forget" to supply a better way to do something. In this case, a better newsgroup.

about openGL or graphics matrix manipulations.

You have not understood the question. Although I've mentioned using
OpenGL, its absolutily not specific to it.

Like stackoverflow.

I rather dislike making one-off accounts.

But now you mention SO, while googleling for the answer (before even
thinking of posting a question here) I got a number of links to webpages presumably having to do something with my question.

But as I wrote to Paul, I first need to know where the coordinates are at.
SO and so many others didn't.

After that I would have liked a (possible) explanation of what really makes them different - beyond what I already mentioned that is.

Complaining is easy. Trying to answer a question is a lot harder.

And by the way : Answers on SO and most like it are often rather language-specific. *C{something}* language specific even. Guess what : I'm not using C{something}.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

R.Wieser <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Chris,

Maybe don't post OT stuff in an inappropriate forum,

I didn't. I posted in a few newsgroups.

None of which are on-topic. You knew this hence your [OT?] subject.

must be plenty of places where you can ask on-topic questions

Its always remarkable that people complain, but somehow "forget" to supply a better way to do something. In this case, a better newsgroup.

It's not for me to do your job for you, given this is not a topic I'm particularly familiar with. If you can't be bothered to identify the most appropriate ng, why should anyone else?

about openGL or graphics matrix manipulations.

You have not understood the question. Although I've mentioned using OpenGL, its absolutily not specific to it.

Like stackoverflow.

I rather dislike making one-off accounts.

Well then, don't complain when you don't get the best answers.

But now you mention SO, while googleling for the answer (before even thinking of posting a question here) I got a number of links to webpages presumably having to do something with my question.

Correct. That's how google works.

But as I wrote to Paul, I first need to know where the coordinates are at. SO and so many others didn't.

After that I would have liked a (possible) explanation of what really makes them different - beyond what I already mentioned that is.

Complaining is easy. Trying to answer a question is a lot harder.

Apparently, writing an on-topic post is hardest of all.

And by the way : Answers on SO and most like it are often rather language-specific. *C{something}* language specific even. Guess what : I'm not using C{something}.

And? Improve your search criteria.

This sounds ideal for a chatgpt or claude conversation. It's actually very
good for helping on technical topics when you're not quite sure how to
frame the question. Look at Ollama if you don't want to create an account. Although, claude might not need one iirc.

When you've got the right framing you can't double check the answer with a google search.
--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Chris,

Maybe don't post OT stuff in an inappropriate forum,

I didn't. I posted in a few newsgroups.

None of which are on-topic. You knew this hence your [OT?] subject.

:-) Tell me, what does a question-mark normally signify ?

So no, I did-and-do not know. And your attempt to make it sound that I did know is not appreciated. Bluntly said: malicious intent is suspected.

must be plenty of places where you can ask on-topic questions

Brilliant ! The good old "there must be" claim.

It's not for me to do your job for you,

Correct. But you claim you know better than me. Its yours to prove.

If you can't be bothered to identify the most appropriate ng,

I already did. You have no idea on which grounds that I made my choices -
and you obviously don't care - but complain nonetheless. iow, all you're doing is sputtering "I don't want that here, sod off with it".

why should anyone else?

:-) Kiddo, you could get me outof your hair by telling me what you think is
a better ng to post my question in. I would take that as a damn good reason for it.

Well then, don't complain when you don't get the best answers.

Ah yes, the old "the thing you do not want to do is the *only* thing that could give you your answer" claim - supported by - again - absolutily
nothing. Stick it kid.

Complaining is easy. Trying to answer a question is a lot harder.

Apparently, writing an on-topic post is hardest of all.

:-) Kiddo, I *made* the topic. It *cannot* be off-topic with itself.

And? Improve your search criteria.

:-) Kiddo, again : you have no idea what I tried and obviously don't care, but won't let that stop you from complaining.

Helping someone finding an answer or even just improve himself ? Ah, no. Your only "addition" to this topic is to complain. Everything else is not your concern.

This sounds ideal for a chatgpt or claude conversation. It's actually very good for helping on technical topics when you're not quite sure how to
frame the question.

:-) You still have not understood what I was-and-am asking, do you ?

What is the chance that my question is the absolute best it could be (and understood by the majority here), but its your understanding that is lacking
? Why don't you put my question thru one-or-more of those AIs and see if
you like their phrasing better.

Besides, you, again, have no idea if I did not already put my question thru one-or-more of those AIs, and could not care less. All you want to do is to complain, an complain you shall. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

On Thu, 9 Apr 2026 10:05:07 +0200, "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid>
wrote:

Besides, you, again, have no idea if I did not already put my question thru >one-or-more of those AIs, and could not care less. All you want to do is to >complain, an complain you shall. :-)

that doesn't matter. If you don't know where to ask your questions
that's not a good excuse to post your questions in this newsgroup.
Ask your questions in a search engine and leave this newsgroup for
windows7 related questions. You are to one who don't understand it and
Chris has the right to complain about your off-topic questions.

--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Lisa,

Besides, you, again, have no idea if I did not already put my question >>thru
one-or-more of those AIs, and could not care less. All you want to do is >>to
complain, an complain you shall. :-)

that doesn't matter. If you don't know where to ask your questions
that's not a good excuse to post your questions in this newsgroup.

And there you are, another one who doesn't know and doesn't care what my considerations where. Just complaining - and as always without even the slightest suggestion of something better. Shove it.

Ask your questions in a search engine

And has reading (comprehension?) problems as well.

I already mentioned I did that before even considering posting here.

and leave this newsgroup for windows7 related questions.

You mean *noone* in the Windows7 ng writes programs or has some maths education that included matrices ? And you know that ...how ?

You are to one who don't understand it

Thats rich, coming from someone who hasn't done *anything* to try to understand my choices.

and Chris has the right to complain about your off-topic questions.

Just like I have the right to call you and Chris out for your *willingly* un-informed complaints.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

On 10/04/2026 10:06, R.Wieser wrote:

You mean*noone* in the Windows7 ng writes programs or has some maths education that included matrices ? And you know that ...how ?

You need to investigate Multi-Dimensional arrays to do any 3D
programming. For example in C# you can write something like this:

using System;

namespace My4DArray
{
class Program
{
static void Main(string[] args)
{
int[,] numbers = { {1, 2, 3, 4}, {5, 6, 7, 8}, {9, 10, 11, 12},
{13, 14, 15, 16} };

for (int i = 0; i < numbers.GetLength(0); i++)
{
for (int j = 0; j < numbers.GetLength(1); j++)
{
Console.Write($"{numbers[i, j], 3}");
}
Console.WriteLine();
}

}

}
}

The above program will produce:
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16

If you have any specific C/C++ GL programming then try posting on:

comp.lang.c++
comp.lang.c

With your OT questions you are driving people crazy on Windows newsgroups!



--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

OT Poster,

You need to investigate Multi-Dimensional arrays to do any 3D programming.

I did better than that : I read up on Matrices, specifically the 4x4 ones.

For example in C# you can write something like this:

Have you taken a look at the image in the link to MS glloadmatrixf I
provided ? Your code is as informative to me (read: not at all). :-|


My first question is simple enough: where are the coordinates located in a column-major matrix ? Can you answer that ?

Without that information all further information to how to handle
column-major matrices is build on quicksand (read: unusable).

*After that* I would like to know how row- and column-major matrices are diffeent - to side-step pitfalls (if any).

And by the way: I've encountered a webpage which described that defining an array as you did and than trying to load it into OpenGL (using the above function) will most likely not give you what you're after (memory order related).

If you have any specific C/C++ GL programming then try posting on:

My question has got zero to do with programming. Also, as already mentioned, I'm not using C{something}. As such my questions would be as OT there as here.

As for GL programming ? Do you know how many newsgroups there are with "OpenGL" in their name on ES ? Four. One is gone and the others have zero posts. When looking for "GL" there seems to be none OpenGL related.

With your OT questions you are driving people crazy on Windows newsgroups!

As I mentioned to Chris, if you know of a better ng to post my question in
than by all means do tell.

As for driving people crazy ? Do you have *any* idea how infuriating it is when people *do not even bother to read* the topics initial question(s) but start to "give their best" nonetheless ? And when I than quote from that initial message they act all injured.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

On Fri, 10 Apr 2026 18:21:44 +0200, "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid>
wrote:

You need to investigate Multi-Dimensional arrays to do any 3D programming. >I did better than that : I read up on Matrices, specifically the 4x4 ones.

yeah, just reading. Other people spend time learning and understand
matrices.

My first question is simple enough: where are the coordinates located in a >column-major matrix ? Can you answer that ?

yes, but that's off-topic in this newsgroup and I doubt if you can
understand the answer reading your answers so far.

As I mentioned to Chris, if you know of a better ng to post my question in >than by all means do tell.

you still don't understand it and you refuse to understand it.

Netiquette refers to the set of guidelines for appropriate and
respectful behavior when communicating online. It helps create a
positive and safe environment for everyone involved in digital
interactions.
Netiquette is something you should respect before posting questions in
a not related newsgroup.
--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.windows7.general

Lisa,

You need to investigate Multi-Dimensional arrays to do any 3D
programming.

I did better than that : I read up on Matrices, specifically the 4x4 ones.

yeah, just reading. Other people spend time learning and understand
matrices.

Girl, your taunts are pitfull. You really can't do better than that ?

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


--- Synchronet 3.21f-Linux NewsLink 1.2