• [OT] Plural countries

    From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 10:36:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/
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  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 09:32:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    What about The Netherlands? OK, we usually treat it as singular in sentences like "The Netherlands is one of the Benelux countries", but on the other hand it is plural in form.

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/
    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
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  • From guido wugi@wugi@brol.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 11:43:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Op 22/09/2026 om 11:32 schreef athel.cb@gmail.com:
    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a
    country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?
    What about The Netherlands? OK, we usually treat it as singular in sentences like "The Netherlands is one of the Benelux countries", but on the other hand it is plural in form.

    I thought this applied to the US as well:
    "The United States has decided by their own." (Same in Dutch, alas)
    What about the United Nations?
    --
    guido wugi

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  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 10:48:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-09-22, occam wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    Masculine singular countries that start with a vowel or "h muet" also
    take "en"; I think l'Iran is one of them.


    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/

    |etats-Unis mexicains, officiellement.
    --
    XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
    try using more of it.
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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 20:57:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/26 18:36, occam wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer
    to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    In this context "plural" means nothing more or less than "grammatically plural". The "aux" is used iff the name (in French) of the country is a
    plural noun, possibly compound. No judgement is made on whether the
    country is united or fragmented. It's a purely grammatical criterion.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab
    Emirates and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of
    island groups (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller entities.
    But the name is singular in Dutch, presumably because the Dutch want to emphasise the country's unity.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 12:57:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/2026 11:32, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:

    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a
    country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    What about The Netherlands? OK, we usually treat it as singular in sentences like "The Netherlands is one of the Benelux countries", but on the other hand
    it is plural in form.


    Yes, Les Pays-Bas (hence 'aux Pays-Bas')

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/



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  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 13:05:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/2026 11:48, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-09-22, occam wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a
    country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    Masculine singular countries that start with a vowel or "h muet" also
    take "en"; I think l'Iran is one of them.



    Yes, that's the part of the rule I left out. Anything with L'<country>
    e.g. L'Irlande gets to have an 'en' pointer. >
    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/

    |etats-Unis mexicains, officiellement.



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  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 13:11:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller entities.
    But the name is singular in Dutch, presumably because the Dutch want to emphasise the country's unity.

    As a counter example of sorts, Le Royaume-Uni (United Kingdom - the
    Union of Wales, Scotland, England, and NI) is singular hence "je vais au Royaume-Uni" (not 'aux').

    Funny old world.


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  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 13:29:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller entities.


    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany, ItalyrCa.

    But the name is singular in Dutch, presumably because the Dutch want to
    emphasise the country's unity.

    As a counter example of sorts, Le Royaume-Uni (United Kingdom - the
    Union of Wales, Scotland, England, and NI) is singular hence "je vais au Royaume-Uni" (not 'aux').

    Funny old world.


    Perhaps the United Kingdom is more united than the Netherlands. Long may
    it remain so!

    (Kingdom? We perhaps need to think about our royals, though. Andrew,
    Harry, and Charlie - three embarrassing Charlies.)

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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 16:19:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 22/09/26 18:36, occam wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer
    to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en', masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    In this context "plural" means nothing more or less than "grammatically plural". The "aux" is used iff the name (in French) of the country is a plural noun, possibly compound. No judgement is made on whether the
    country is united or fragmented. It's a purely grammatical criterion.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab
    Emirates and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of
    island groups (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    Any other obvious plural states I've missed?

    https://lingoculture.com/blog/vocab/countries-in-french/

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller entities.
    But the name is singular in Dutch, presumably because the Dutch want to emphasise the country's unity.

    Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden, plural, still exists.
    It consists at present of Nederland, Aruba, Curatao en Sint Maarten.
    Nederland itself is singular,

    Jan

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  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 17:52:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Tue, 22 Sep 2026 10:36:33 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer to a >country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    'Plural countries' intrigued me. The United States, United Arab Emirates
    and the Philippines come to mind. There are also a host of island groups
    (the Maldives, the Bahamas, the Cook islands etc.)

    As in "The United States or any of them..."
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 16:05:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <118tmv7$pl26$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
    On 22/09/26 18:36, occam wrote:

    I looked up the French rule for using 'en', 'au' or 'aux' to refer
    to a country. So, 'en France', 'au Japon' 'aux Etats-Unis'.

    The rule is simple (and sexist) : Feminine countries require 'en',
    masculine countries require 'au', and plural countries take 'aux'.

    In this context "plural" means nothing more or less than "grammatically >plural". The "aux" is used iff the name (in French) of the country is a >plural noun, possibly compound. No judgement is made on whether the
    country is united or fragmented. It's a purely grammatical criterion.

    Same deal in many other languages. Sometimes there's a choice of
    name, as with "United States of America" and "USA", "United Mexican
    States" and "Mexico", or (more controversially) "Netherlands" and
    "Holland".

    In some languages the question might arise as to whether "USA", being
    an acronym for a phrase that is itself morphologically plural, should
    itself be deemed plural.

    This caused me to look up the US in Finnish Wikipedia -- while I can't
    read Finnish any more, I can recognize the morphology well enough.
    That article *never* uses "USA" except to mention it once in the
    intro. Interestingly, while "Yhdysvallat" is morphologically plural
    (and remains so when declined in any of the 11 other cases) as a
    subject it is often used, in that article anyway, with the 3sg copula
    "on", which makes me wonder why it's not 3pl "ovat", and if the
    Finnish standard took directly from the US practice of singular
    agreement when speaking about the country as a whole.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Aidan Kehoe@kehoea@parhasard.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 18:43:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Ar an dara l|i is fiche de m|! M|-an F||mhair, scr|!obh Garrett Wollman:

    [...] In some languages the question might arise as to whether "USA", being an acronym for a phrase that is itself morphologically plural, should itself be deemed plural.

    This caused me to look up the US in Finnish Wikipedia -- while I can't
    read Finnish any more, I can recognize the morphology well enough.
    That article *never* uses "USA" except to mention it once in the
    intro. Interestingly, while "Yhdysvallat" is morphologically plural
    (and remains so when declined in any of the 11 other cases) as a
    subject it is often used, in that article anyway, with the 3sg copula
    "on", which makes me wonder why it's not 3pl "ovat", and if the
    Finnish standard took directly from the US practice of singular
    agreement when speaking about the country as a whole.

    The Irish Wikipedia article opens oddly:

    rCLIs poblacht fheidear|ilach de 50 st|it iad St|iit Aontaithe Mheirice|i (SAM), ag
    a bhfuil tr|! bhrainse rialtais, mar at|i: craobh na mbreithi||na, an
    Chomhdh|iil,agus an feidhmeanas.[1] Toghtar uachtar|in don bhrainse
    dheireannach dothr|-imhse cheithre bliana, agus |- mar cheann st|iit agus
    ardcheannaire na bhf||rsa|! m|!leata ag an am c|-anna.rCY

    rCLThe United States of America (USA) are a federal republic of fifty states,
    which has[number unspecified] three branches of government: the judicial, the
    Congress, and the executive. The president of the latter branch is elected
    for four year periods, as head of state and commander in chief of the
    military forces at the same time.rCY

    Not how I would have chosen to open an article on the US, but it doesnrCOt annoy
    me enough to change it.

    Anyway, it uses the plural for United States of America and uses the singular for Meirice|i, used synonymously in the article. It barely uses the acronym and not in a context where the verb is marked for number.

    The Scots Gaelic Wikipedia article doesnrCOt open quite as oddly. It does uses the plural throughout. It doesnrCOt seem to use a synonym (the equivalent would be Aimearaga.)

    The Persian Wikipedia article uses the singular; it doesnrCOt use the acronym. --
    rCyAs I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stoutrCO
    (C. Moore)
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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 20:10:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller entities.


    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany, ItalyrCa.

    But the name is singular in Dutch, presumably because the Dutch want to
    emphasise the country's unity.

    As a counter example of sorts, Le Royaume-Uni (United Kingdom - the
    Union of Wales, Scotland, England, and NI) is singular hence "je vais au Royaume-Uni" (not 'aux').

    Funny old world.


    Perhaps the United Kingdom is more united than the Netherlands. Long may
    it remain so!

    The "United Kingdom of the Netherlands" (1815-1839)
    was an English creation. (acting together with the Prussians)
    It consisted of Nederland, Belgi|2, and (halfway) Luxemburg.
    It was supposed to be a buffer against renewed French expansionism.
    When it came to an end, in 1830, the English lacked the courage
    to defend their own creation against French encroachments.

    The French even offered to make Flanders independent,
    as an English protectorate, but they were to cowardly
    to accept even that,

    Jan


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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 10:31:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/26 22:29, Hibou wrote:
    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller
    entities.

    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany,
    ItalyrCa.

    The difference, I think, is in the question of timing. In English terms
    like "the low countries" and "the nether lands" were in general use long
    before the nation of Nederland precipitated out of the mix. That's
    because the regions in question were near neighbours of England and
    Scotland.

    As distance increases, people have a fuzzier understanding of the status
    of remote regions. Even today, most people have a poor understanding of
    the relationship between Germany and Prussia.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rich Ulrich@rich.ulrich@comcast.net to alt.usage.english on Tue Sep 22 23:06:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 10:31:15 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    On 22/09/26 22:29, Hibou wrote:
    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller
    entities.

    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany,
    ItalyrCa.

    The difference, I think, is in the question of timing. In English terms
    like "the low countries" and "the nether lands" were in general use long >before the nation of Nederland precipitated out of the mix. That's
    because the regions in question were near neighbours of England and
    Scotland.

    As distance increases, people have a fuzzier understanding of the status
    of remote regions. Even today, most people have a poor understanding of
    the relationship between Germany and Prussia.

    That plural form seems to me to also invite the word "the" in front of
    a name. The United States

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".
    --
    Rich Ulrich
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 13:50:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 23/09/26 13:06, Rich Ulrich wrote:

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".

    The Russian language doesn't have a definite article, so it's a
    non-issue if you're speaking Russian (or Ukrainian). Similarly, nobody
    is bothered by the article in the French name of the country, because
    French puts an article in front of /every/ country name. It's
    specifically a question of what you call the country in English.

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a country,
    but we do often use an article when referring to a region inside a
    country. So indeed we have the outback, the south-west, the Rockies, the
    Gold Coast, the Midlands, and so on.

    That means that "The Ukraine" sounds like a region, maybe part of
    Greater Russia. So the Russians are happy with that, but the Ukrainians
    are not.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 07:33:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 05.50 skrev Peter Moylan:

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a country,

    What is it then?
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 06:48:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 04:06, Rich Ulrich a |-crit :

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".


    "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says
    Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London. / 'Ukraine is both
    the conventional short and long name of the country,' she says. 'This
    name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and
    Constitution.' / The use of the article relates to the time before independence in 1991 [...] Those who called it 'the Ukraine' in English
    must have known that the word meant 'borderland', says Anatoly Liberman,
    a professor at the University of Minnesota [...] So they referred to it
    as 'the borderland'" -
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844>

    "There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with 'the', such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands,
    Philippines and Bahamas. / But according to several authoritative
    sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas
    of the World, and the US Department of State, only two countries, The
    Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article."

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 09:08:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 22/09/2026 19:43, Aidan Kehoe wrote:

    rCLThe United States of America (USA) are a federal republic of fifty states,
    which has[number unspecified] three branches of government: the judicial, the
    Congress, and the executive. The president of the latter branch is elected
    for four year periods, as head of state and commander in chief of the
    military forces at the same time.rCY

    Not how I would have chosen to open an article on the US, but it doesnrCOt annoy
    me enough to change it.

    Anyway, it uses the plural for United States of America and uses the singular for Meirice|i, used synonymously in the article. It barely uses the acronym and
    not in a context where the verb is marked for number.

    The Scots Gaelic Wikipedia article doesnrCOt open quite as oddly. It does uses
    the plural throughout. It doesnrCOt seem to use a synonym (the equivalent would
    be Aimearaga.)

    The Persian Wikipedia article uses the singular; it doesnrCOt use the acronym.

    Does the latter it mention 'The Great Sheitan'. Just curious </smile>


    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 17:10:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 23/09/26 15:33, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 05.50 skrev Peter Moylan:

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a
    country,

    What is it then?

    This came up recently, although I've forgotten the context. English is
    flexible about the exact position of a "not".

    If I'd been writing more carefully, I might have said "the custom ... is
    to put no article ...". Still, I believe my original wording would be acceptable to most people.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 08:18:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 08:10, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 23/09/26 15:33, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 05.50 skrev Peter Moylan:

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a
    country,

    What is it then?

    This came up recently, although I've forgotten the context. English is flexible about the exact position of a "not".

    If I'd been writing more carefully, I might have said "the custom ... is
    to put no article ...". Still, I believe my original wording would be acceptable to most people.


    Yes.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Aidan Kehoe@kehoea@parhasard.net to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 10:32:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Ar an tr|!|| l|i is fiche de m|! M|-an F||mhair, scr|!obh occam:

    On 22/09/2026 19:43, Aidan Kehoe wrote:

    rCLThe United States of America (USA) are a federal republic of fifty
    states, which has[number unspecified] three branches of government: the
    judicial, the Congress, and the executive. The president of the latter
    branch is elected for four year periods, as head of state and commander
    in chief of the military forces at the same time.rCY

    Not how I would have chosen to open an article on the US, but it doesnrCOt annoy me enough to change it.

    Anyway, it uses the plural for United States of America and uses the singular for Meirice|i, used synonymously in the article. It barely uses the acronym and not in a context where the verb is marked for number.

    The Scots Gaelic Wikipedia article doesnrCOt open quite as oddly. It does uses the plural throughout. It doesnrCOt seem to use a synonym (the equivalent would be Aimearaga.)

    The Persian Wikipedia article uses the singular; it doesnrCOt use the acronym.

    Does the latter it mention 'The Great Sheitan'. Just curious </smile>

    No mention of +|#i+++o+a +?+#+#+>. Also no mention of +a+#+> +?+# +o+a+##i+-+o! --
    rCyAs I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
    How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stoutrCO
    (C. Moore)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 12:29:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 09.10 skrev Peter Moylan:

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a
    country,

    What is it then?

    This came up recently, although I've forgotten the context. English is flexible about the exact position of a "not".

    I'm aware of it, and I don't think that there's anything wrong with your sentence. I would have used a (not-)split infinitive.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 18:18:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 13:50:18 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    On 23/09/26 13:06, Rich Ulrich wrote:

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".

    The Russian language doesn't have a definite article, so it's a
    non-issue if you're speaking Russian (or Ukrainian). Similarly, nobody
    is bothered by the article in the French name of the country, because
    French puts an article in front of /every/ country name. It's
    specifically a question of what you call the country in English.

    The custom in English is not to put an article on the name of a country,
    but we do often use an article when referring to a region inside a
    country. So indeed we have the outback, the south-west, the Rockies, the
    Gold Coast, the Midlands, and so on.

    That means that "The Ukraine" sounds like a region, maybe part of
    Greater Russia. So the Russians are happy with that, but the Ukrainians
    are not.

    "The" Ivory Coast --> C||te d'Ivoire

    or

    the Republic of C||te d'Ivoire
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Rich Ulrich@rich.ulrich@comcast.net to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 13:03:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 06:48:02 +0100, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 04:06, Rich Ulrich a |-crit :

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".


    "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says
    Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London. / 'Ukraine is both
    the conventional short and long name of the country,' she says. 'This
    name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and >Constitution.' / The use of the article relates to the time before >independence in 1991 [...] Those who called it 'the Ukraine' in English
    must have known that the word meant 'borderland', says Anatoly Liberman,
    a professor at the University of Minnesota [...] So they referred to it
    as 'the borderland'" -
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844>

    "There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with >'the', such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands, >Philippines and Bahamas. / But according to several authoritative
    sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas
    of the World, and the US Department of State, only two countries, The >Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article."

    Nice.
    Thanks.
    --
    Rich Ulrich
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 17:27:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> posted:

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 06:48:02 +0100, Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 04:06, Rich Ulrich a |-crit :

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".


    "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says >Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London. / 'Ukraine is both
    the conventional short and long name of the country,' she says. 'This
    name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and >Constitution.' / The use of the article relates to the time before >independence in 1991 [...] Those who called it 'the Ukraine' in English >must have known that the word meant 'borderland', says Anatoly Liberman,
    a professor at the University of Minnesota [...] So they referred to it
    as 'the borderland'" -
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844>

    "There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with >'the', such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands, >Philippines and Bahamas. / But according to several authoritative
    sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas
    of the World, and the US Department of State, only two countries, The >Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article."

    Nice.
    Thanks.

    Far be it from me to diasgree with such august sources as CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, and the US Department of State, but I don't think I've ever seen "Netherlands" or "Philippines" written without "The" or "the" (other than when used adjectivally). Probably "Congo" neither. --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 18:44:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <1790184455-12588@newsgrouper.org>,
    athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
    Far be it from me to diasgree with such august sources as CIA World Factbook, >the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, and the US Department of State, >but I don't think I've ever seen "Netherlands" or "Philippines" written without
    "The" or "the" (other than when used adjectivally). Probably "Congo" neither.

    It's entirely legitimate to disagree with such august sources on what
    is, after all, a question of English usage, not geography, on which
    they have no special authority. They are speaking outside of their
    legitimate teaching domain.

    Congo is a special case because there are two of them. Their formal
    names differ only by one word ("Democratic") and are too long for
    normal speech anyway. For the one whose capital is Kinshasa, "the
    DRC" seems to work on second reference for most media outlets, anyway.

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 21:34:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 19.27 skrev athel.cb@gmail.com:

    Far be it from me to diasgree with such august sources as CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, and the US Department of State, but I don't think I've ever seen "Netherlands" or "Philippines" written without
    "The" or "the" (other than when used adjectivally). Probably "Congo" neither.

    The Danish "Filippinerne" and "Nederlandene" are both definite and
    plural. We don't use an article for that but a suffix. "I've seen
    "Congo" uncountable times just like that.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Silvano@Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 21:38:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Garrett Wollman hat am 23.09.2026 um 20:44 geschrieben:
    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Wed Sep 23 21:47:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 23.09.2026 kl. 21.38 skrev Silvano:

    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?

    In Dictionary.com "arthrous" redirects to "anarthrous":

    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/anarthrous?q=arthrous

    which gives the clue.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Anders D. Nygaard@news2012adn@google.com to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 00:33:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 9/23/2026 8:44 PM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
    Congo is a special case because there are two of them.

    Which makes it even more dubious to refer to either of
    them as "the" Congo.

    /Anders, Denmark
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 09:59:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 24/09/26 05:38, Silvano wrote:
    Garrett Wollman hat am 23.09.2026 um 20:44 geschrieben:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?

    Don't feel bad about it. I suspect that the majority of native English speakers don't knowq the word.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 04:51:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 10:31:15 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    On 22/09/26 22:29, Hibou wrote:
    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller
    entities.

    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany,
    ItalyrCa.

    The difference, I think, is in the question of timing. In English terms
    like "the low countries" and "the nether lands" were in general use long >before the nation of Nederland precipitated out of the mix. That's
    because the regions in question were near neighbours of England and
    Scotland.

    The difference between the Netherlands and the Kingdom thereof is
    similar to that between America and the United States thereof, and
    between South Africa and the Union (or Republic thereof).

    "The Netherlands" or "the Low Countries" can, and sometimes does,
    refer to Benelux. To avoid ambiguity one should speak of the Kingdom
    of the Netherlands (Koninkrijk der Nederlanden).

    "America" could refer to the USA, or it could include neighbouring
    countries as well (Gulf of America could refer to all the nations
    bordering its shores).

    Before 1910 and the formation of the Union of South Africa, the term
    "South Africa" could, and often did, refer to the whole subcontinent.
    Since 1910 people have tended to get around it by referring to the
    subcontinent as "SouthERN Africa", though there is still some
    confusion about whether that refers to Africa south of the equator, or
    only to that part of Africa that is south of the Kunene and Zambesi
    rivers.

    Between 1910 and 1960 people in neighbouring countries referred to the
    Union of South Africa simply as "the Union", and from 1961 as "the
    Republic". In the city of Windhoek the road that leads out of the city
    to the south was called Union Road, and after 1961, "Republic Road".
    But that became confusing after 1966 when the Republic of Botswana
    made its appearance.

    Cf also China, and the Republic and the People's Republic thereof. And
    then there's Korea. And Mongolia (inner and outer).
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 06:57:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 18:27, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :
    Hibou quoted:

    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844> [:]

    "There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with >>> 'the', such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands,
    Philippines and Bahamas. / But according to several authoritative
    sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas
    of the World, and the US Department of State, only two countries, The
    Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article."

    Far be it from me to diasgree with such august sources as CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, and the US Department of State, but I don't think I've ever seen "Netherlands" or "Philippines" written without
    "The" or "the" (other than when used adjectivally). Probably "Congo" neither.


    Yes, I quoted that bit without dwelling on it. It does seem strange.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 08:19:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 24/09/2026 |a 00:59, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 24/09/26 05:38, Silvano wrote:
    Garrett Wollman hat am 23.09.2026 um 20:44 geschrieben:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me
    understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?

    Don't feel bad about it. I suspect that the majority of native English speakers don't know the word.


    I, for one, knew it not.

    Arthrous: "Of a Greek noun: used with the article. Opposed to
    /anarthrous/" - OED.

    So, nothing to do with round tables, then. Just beware of Greeks in the
    Congo.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 15:30:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <0629blp7hnkfopj2lnhu8f09ph0c6ji55m@4ax.com>,
    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
    "The Netherlands" or "the Low Countries" can, and sometimes does,
    refer to Benelux. To avoid ambiguity one should speak of the Kingdom
    of the Netherlands (Koninkrijk der Nederlanden).

    The Kingdom of the Netherlands includes multiple constituent
    countries, only one of which is predominantly in Europe. (Aruba,
    Cura|oao, and Sint Maarten are others -- but Bonaire is a special
    municipality, not a country. This came as a result of the dissolution
    of the Netherlands Antilles about 15 years ago.)

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Radey Shouman@shouman@comcast.net to alt.usage.english on Thu Sep 24 11:44:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    athel.cb@gmail.com <user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid> writes:

    Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> posted:

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 06:48:02 +0100, Hibou
    <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 23/09/2026 |a 04:06, Rich Ulrich a |-crit :

    Until recently, most Americans (including me) spoke of "the Ukraine"
    instead of "Ukraine" -- I saw an explanation once, but I forget it.
    It might have been that Russians spoke of 'the Ukraine" like
    Australians speak of "the Outback".


    "'The Ukraine' is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says
    Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London. / 'Ukraine is both
    the conventional short and long name of the country,' she says. 'This
    name is stated in the Ukrainian Declaration of Independence and
    Constitution.' / The use of the article relates to the time before
    independence in 1991 [...] Those who called it 'the Ukraine' in English
    must have known that the word meant 'borderland', says Anatoly Liberman, >> >a professor at the University of Minnesota [...] So they referred to it
    as 'the borderland'" -
    <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18233844>

    "There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with >> >'the', such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands,
    Philippines and Bahamas. / But according to several authoritative
    sources, such as the CIA World Factbook, the Times Comprehensive Atlas
    of the World, and the US Department of State, only two countries, The
    Bahamas and The Gambia, should officially be referred to with the article." >>
    Nice.
    Thanks.

    Far be it from me to diasgree with such august sources as CIA World Factbook,
    the Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World, and the US Department of State, but I don't think I've ever seen "Netherlands" or "Philippines" written without
    "The" or "the" (other than when used adjectivally). Probably "Congo" neither.

    In my experience it's always "The United States of America" or "The
    USA". Would anyone really say "I'm going to USA"?
    --

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Madhu@enometh@meer.net to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 07:18:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    * Hibou <nhk18cFqgq9U2@mid.individual.net> :
    Wrote on Thu, 24 Sep 2026 08:19:40 +0100:
    Le 24/09/2026 |a 00:59, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 24/09/26 05:38, Silvano wrote:
    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me
    understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?
    Don't feel bad about it. I suspect that the majority of native
    English speakers don't know the word.

    I, for one, knew it not.
    Arthrous: "Of a Greek noun: used with the article. Opposed to
    /anarthrous/" - OED.
    So, nothing to do with round tables, then. Just beware of Greeks in
    the Congo.

    let me submit a usage example, if it helps even if the OED probably won'
    accept it

    %
    The simple fact is that if you are ever mentioned on page 1 of a Dan
    Brown novel you will be mentioned with an anarthrous occupational
    nominal premodifier ("Renowned linguist Geoff Pullum staggered across
    the savage splendor of the forsaken Santa Cruz campus, struggling to
    remove the knife plunged unnaturally into his back by a barbarous
    millionaire novelist"), and you will have died a painful and horrible
    death by page 2, along with several curiously ill-chosen cliches and
    mangled idioms.
    -- Geoffrey K. Pullum
    %


    (GWollman was being literary)

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 06:31:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 25/09/2026 |a 02:48, Madhu a |-crit :

    let me submit a usage example, if it helps even if the OED probably won' accept it

    %
    The simple fact is that if you are ever mentioned on page 1 of a Dan
    Brown novel you will be mentioned with an anarthrous occupational
    nominal premodifier ("Renowned linguist Geoff Pullum staggered across
    the savage splendor of the forsaken Santa Cruz campus, struggling to
    remove the knife plunged unnaturally into his back by a barbarous
    millionaire novelist"), and you will have died a painful and horrible
    death by page 2, along with several curiously ill-chosen cliches and
    mangled idioms.
    -- Geoffrey K. Pullum
    %


    I think I died a painful and horrible death part way through reading that.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 06:39:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Madhu <enometh@meer.net> posted:


    * Hibou <nhk18cFqgq9U2@mid.individual.net> :
    Wrote on Thu, 24 Sep 2026 08:19:40 +0100:
    Le 24/09/2026 |a 00:59, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 24/09/26 05:38, Silvano wrote:
    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me >>> understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?
    Don't feel bad about it. I suspect that the majority of native
    English speakers don't know the word.

    I, for one, knew it not.
    Arthrous: "Of a Greek noun: used with the article. Opposed to
    /anarthrous/" - OED.
    So, nothing to do with round tables, then. Just beware of Greeks in
    the Congo.

    let me submit a usage example, if it helps even if the OED probably won' accept it

    %
    The simple fact is that if you are ever mentioned on page 1 of a Dan
    Brown novel you will be mentioned with an anarthrous occupational
    nominal premodifier ("Renowned linguist Geoff Pullum staggered across
    the savage splendor of the forsaken Santa Cruz campus, struggling to
    remove the knife plunged unnaturally into his back by a barbarous
    millionaire novelist"), and you will have died a painful and horrible
    death by page 2, along with several curiously ill-chosen cliches and
    mangled idioms.
    -- Geoffrey K. Pullum

    Geoffrey Pullum's withdrawal from Language Log is one of the tragedies of
    the age.
    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 10:17:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 24.09.2026 kl. 17.44 skrev Radey Shouman:

    In my experience it's always "The United States of America" or "The
    USA". Would anyone really say "I'm going to USA"?

    I'm always debating with myself whether to have the article or not.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 08:39:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:

    Den 24.09.2026 kl. 17.44 skrev Radey Shouman:

    In my experience it's always "The United States of America" or "The
    USA". Would anyone really say "I'm going to USA"?

    I'm always debating with myself whether to have the article or not.

    Yes, but we're not discussing Danish usage. When my wife refers to "the USA"
    in English it has the article; when she refers to "Usa" in Spanish it doesn't. --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 09:31:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-09-23, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:

    On 9/23/2026 8:44 PM, Garrett Wollman wrote:
    Congo is a special case because there are two of them.

    Which makes it even more dubious to refer to either of
    them as "the" Congo.

    "a Congo" ;-)

    The Congo could also be the river.
    --
    Ninety-nine percent of who you are is invisible and untouchable.
    --Buckminster Fuller
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 08:48:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <11916m0$2la1$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
    Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    -- Richard
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 15:46:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <1195chj$bl7i$1@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>,
    Richard Tobin <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
    In article <11916m0$2la1$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
    Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    "Congo-Kinshasa" is also anarthrous.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Snidely@snidely.too@gmail.com to alt.usage.english on Fri Sep 25 14:13:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    athel.cb@gmail.com scribbled something on Thursday the 9/24/2026:
    Madhu <enometh@meer.net> posted:


    * Hibou <nhk18cFqgq9U2@mid.individual.net> :
    Wrote on Thu, 24 Sep 2026 08:19:40 +0100:
    Le 24/09/2026 a 00:59, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
    On 24/09/26 05:38, Silvano wrote:
    <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arthrous> does not help me >>>>> understand what you mean? Can you help a foreigner?
    Don't feel bad about it. I suspect that the majority of native
    English speakers don't know the word.
    I, for one, knew it not.
    Arthrous: "Of a Greek noun: used with the article. Opposed to
    /anarthrous/" - OED.
    So, nothing to do with round tables, then. Just beware of Greeks in
    the Congo.

    let me submit a usage example, if it helps even if the OED probably won'
    accept it

    %
    The simple fact is that if you are ever mentioned on page 1 of a Dan
    Brown novel you will be mentioned with an anarthrous occupational
    nominal premodifier ("Renowned linguist Geoff Pullum staggered across
    the savage splendor of the forsaken Santa Cruz campus, struggling to
    remove the knife plunged unnaturally into his back by a barbarous
    millionaire novelist"), and you will have died a painful and horrible
    death by page 2, along with several curiously ill-chosen cliches and
    mangled idioms.
    -- Geoffrey K. Pullum

    Geoffrey Pullum's withdrawal from Language Log is one of the tragedies of
    the age.

    It's because the savage splendor of the forsaken Santa Cruz campus has
    worn him down.


    Damn, I need to do more Hiway One ... US 101 goes too far inland at
    that point.

    /dps
    --
    Trust, but verify.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sat Sep 26 08:48:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    It sound dirty.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sat Sep 26 08:49:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.39 skrev athel.cb@gmail.com:

    In my experience it's always "The United States of America" or "The
    USA". Would anyone really say "I'm going to USA"?

    I'm always debating with myself whether to have the article or not.

    Yes, but we're not discussing Danish usage.

    No. I meant when I write English. In Danish there is no debate - we only
    say "USA".
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sat Sep 26 19:55:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sun Sep 27 08:40:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Sep 27 18:11:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-09-26, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo". >>>
    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long
    diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song

    I had to look that up: "The Congo" by Nicholas Vachel Lindsay
    (1915), subtitled "A Study of the Negro Race", part I "Their Basic
    Savagery" --- lovely!


    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese
    --
    You cannot really appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the
    original Klingon. ---Klingon Programmer's Guide
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Sep 27 18:12:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-09-25, Richard Tobin wrote:

    In article <11916m0$2la1$1@usenet.csail.mit.edu>,
    Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is
    not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo".

    Arthur who?
    --
    If we spent just one-tenth of the effort we spend prosecuting the poor
    on prosecuting the rich, it would be a very different world.
    (Bruce Schneier)
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Sun Sep 27 20:11:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 27/09/2026 18:11, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-09-26, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is >>>>>> not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo". >>>>
    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long >>> diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song

    I had to look that up: "The Congo" by Nicholas Vachel Lindsay
    (1915), subtitled "A Study of the Negro Race", part I "Their Basic
    Savagery" --- lovely!


    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese

    May all Thompson gunners be headless.

    P.S. The Wiki article on the Thomson gun lists the (many many) wars in
    which it was utilised. The Congo was isn't mentioned, so Mr Zevon had different sources.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 08:40:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 28/09/26 03:11, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-09-26, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is >>>>>> not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo". >>>>
    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long >>> diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song

    I had to look that up: "The Congo" by Nicholas Vachel Lindsay
    (1915), subtitled "A Study of the Negro Race", part I "Their Basic
    Savagery" --- lovely!


    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese

    Oh, and on a similar topic:

    Papa Kasavubu, he say
    Mister Lumumba, go away
    This is your daddy, oh no
    My danny can't be ugly so.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 08:37:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 28/09/26 03:11, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-09-26, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is >>>>>> not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo". >>>>
    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long >>> diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song

    I had to look that up: "The Congo" by Nicholas Vachel Lindsay
    (1915), subtitled "A Study of the Negro Race", part I "Their Basic
    Savagery" --- lovely!


    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese

    And a little more modern:

    They're rioting in Africa
    They're starving in Spain
    They're hurricanes in Cuba
    And China needs rain

    The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
    The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
    The Yugoslavs hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
    And I don't like Governor Wallace very much
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 04:53:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 27 Sep 2026 20:11:15 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

    On 27/09/2026 18:11, Adam Funk wrote:
    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese

    May all Thompson gunners be headless.

    P.S. The Wiki article on the Thomson gun lists the (many many) wars in >which it was utilised. The Congo was isn't mentioned, so Mr Zevon had >different sources.


    Blood understood the Native mind.
    He said: rCLWe must be firm but kind.rCY
    A Mutiny resulted.
    I never shall forget the way
    That Blood upon this awful day
    Preserved us all from death.
    He stood upon a little mound,
    Cast his lethargic eyes around,
    And said beneath his breath:
    rCLWhatever happens we have got
    The Maxim Gun, and they have not.rCY

    (Hillaire Belloc)

    Or, as Samuel Huntington put it more prosaically:

    The clash of civilizations.

    Source: Huntington 1998:51.
    "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or
    values or religion (to which few members of other
    civilizations were converted) but rather by its superiority in
    applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this
    fact; non-Westerners never do".
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 05:01:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 28 Sep 2026 08:37:57 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    And a little more modern:

    They're rioting in Africa
    They're starving in Spain
    They're hurricanes in Cuba
    And China needs rain

    There's hurricanes in Florida
    And Texas needs rain (in the version I learnt).

    The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
    The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
    The Yugoslavs hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
    And I don't like Governor Wallace very much

    Italians hate Yugoslavs
    South Africans hate the Dutch
    And I don't like anybody very much.

    and to end with, more topically:

    There's hurricanes in Florida
    There's strife in Iran
    What nature doesn't do to us
    Will be done by our fellow person.
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 11:50:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 28 Sep 2026 08:37:57 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    And a little more modern:

    They're rioting in Africa
    They're starving in Spain
    They're hurricanes in Cuba
    And China needs rain

    There's hurricanes in Florida
    And Texas needs rain (in the version I learnt).

    The whole world is festering with unhappy souls
    The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles
    The Yugoslavs hate Yugoslavs, South Africans hate the Dutch
    And I don't like Governor Wallace very much

    Italians hate Yugoslavs
    South Africans hate the Dutch
    And I don't like anybody very much.

    and to end with, more topically:

    There's hurricanes in Florida
    There's strife in Iran
    What nature doesn't do to us
    Will be done by our fellow person.

    Why would South Africans be hating the Dutch?
    (beyond the needs of rhyme)

    Jan

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Mon Sep 28 13:56:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 23 Sep 2026 10:31:15 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    On 22/09/26 22:29, Hibou wrote:
    Le 22/09/2026 |a 12:11, occam a |-crit :
    On 22/09/2026 12:57, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Les Pays-Bas, which is plural in both French and English because
    historically the Netherlands was formed as a union of smaller
    entities.

    I should think that's true of many countries - the UK, Germany,
    ItalyrCa.

    The difference, I think, is in the question of timing. In English terms >like "the low countries" and "the nether lands" were in general use long >before the nation of Nederland precipitated out of the mix. That's
    because the regions in question were near neighbours of England and >Scotland.

    The difference between the Netherlands and the Kingdom thereof is
    similar to that between America and the United States thereof, and
    between South Africa and the Union (or Republic thereof).

    Not really. You are confusing 'The Kingdom....'
    (post 1815, not a federation)
    and The Republic (up to 1795)
    The Republic really was a federation (of a kind)
    between seven united, but independent states.
    For example, Zeeland, Holland, and Friesland each had admiralties
    that supplies ships to the combined fleet. [1]

    "The Netherlands" or "the Low Countries" can, and sometimes does,
    refer to Benelux.

    The Low Countries as an entity (late Middle Ages)
    refers to the region the Burgundians had managed to get control of.
    The Burgundians didn't care that they were in feudal theory
    underlings of both the Kings of France and the German Emperors.
    (the Flemish had defeated the French, the Hollanders the Germans)

    To avoid ambiguity one should speak of the Kingdom
    of the Netherlands (Koninkrijk der Nederlanden).

    'The Benelux' covers the extent of wat was:
    'The Kingdom of the United Netherlands' (1815-1839)
    (not to be confused with 'The Kingdom of The Netherlands)
    So in all, more about it than you wanted to know.

    The Benelux still exists as the core of the EU that it was,
    with some agreements among member states
    that go further than EU treaties.
    The official name is nowadays the 'Benelux Unie',

    Jan

    [1] The Dutch were good at cooperating, also then.
    Despite five separate Dutch admiralties being involved,
    each with their own decision making bodies,
    the Dutch still managed to beat the English with their single admiralty
    in all those Anglo-Dutch wars that the English
    were starting all the time.





    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Adam Funk@a24061@ducksburg.com to alt.usage.english on Thu Oct 1 15:09:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 2026-09-27, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    On 27/09/2026 18:11, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-09-26, Peter Moylan wrote:

    On 27/09/26 04:55, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 26/09/2026 07:48, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
    Den 25.09.2026 kl. 10.48 skrev Richard Tobin:

    "The Republic of the Congo" is arthrous, but "Congo-Brazzaville" is >>>>>>> not.

    Perhaps we should call them "Arthrous Congo" and "The Anarthrous Congo". >>>>>
    It sound dirty.

    On the other hand, I must thank this thread for sending me off on a long >>>> diversion to read about the River Congo. (200 metres deep in places!)

    Then along that riverbank
    A thousand miles
    Tattooed cannibals danced in files;
    Then I heard the boom of the blood-lust song

    I had to look that up: "The Congo" by Nicholas Vachel Lindsay
    (1915), subtitled "A Study of the Negro Race", part I "Their Basic
    Savagery" --- lovely!


    I was thinking of something more recent:

    Through sixty-six and seven
    They fought the Congo war
    With their fingers on their triggers
    Knee-deep in gore

    For days and nights they battled
    The Bantu to their knees
    They killed to earn their living
    And to help out the Congolese

    May all Thompson gunners be headless.

    P.S. The Wiki article on the Thomson gun lists the (many many) wars in which it was utilised. The Congo was isn't mentioned, so Mr Zevon had different sources.


    To be fair, I've never seen any headless people walking around in real
    life either.
    --
    President Business is going to end the world? But he's such a good
    guy! And Octan, they make good stuff: music, dairy products, coffee,
    TV shows, surveillance systems, all history books, voting
    machines... wait a minute! ---Emmet
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2