To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants,
and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its
related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates?
Le 10/08/2026 |a 07:16, occam a |-crit :
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint.-a Why?-a Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary,
saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants,
and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its
related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates?
Devil's advocates now oppose ideas in order to test them. Historically,
an advocatus diaboli took a sceptical view of people's lives before they
were declared saints.
The Devil is unfairly demonised, in my opinion. Look at God's actions as reported in the Bible: sending the Flood to kill almost everyone (that
was genocide, surely?); obliterating cities with fire and brimstone;
sending plagues and killing firstborn sonsrCa. I mean, Jesus!
The Devil's actions are not in the same league. By comparison, He's a
bit of a saint.
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes te form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positiverole in the proces.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? [1]
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary,
saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Certainly not.
Early on the church fathers decreed at one of their councils
that the christian god is all powerful, all knowing, all everything.
So the devil has no powers of his own, beyond what god allows him.
All and any dualism is heresy, (of Manichaeism)
and so a good reason for burning all kinds of Gnostics at the stake.
Unfortunately many protestants, in particular American ones,
have forgotten this deep christian truth,
Jan
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 08:16:40 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
The devil *is* an advocate.
The English word "devil" comes from the Greek "diavolos", which means adversary or opponent,
and is itself a translation of the Hebrew
"satan" which refers to an accuser or prosecutor in a court of law.
In other words, the job of the prosecutor (satan/devil) is to list all
the bad things that the accused is alleged to have done, and present
evidence that they have done them.
If you want a biblical example, see Zechariah chapter 3.
The term "devil's advocate" is a technical term used by the Roman
Catholic Church when trying to decide whether a person should be
commemorated as a Saint (with a capital S).
The "devil's advocate" brings to the attention of the tribunal (ad
vocare) all the bad things the person has done, thus doing in an
earthly church court what the devil is said to do in the heavenly
court.
On 10/08/2026 10:41, J. J. Lodder wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible >> is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes te form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positiverole in the proces.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? [1]
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, >> saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Certainly not.
Early on the church fathers decreed at one of their councils
that the christian god is all powerful, all knowing, all everything.
So the devil has no powers of his own, beyond what god allows him.
All and any dualism is heresy, (of Manichaeism)
and so a good reason for burning all kinds of Gnostics at the stake.
Unfortunately many protestants, in particular American ones,
have forgotten this deep christian truth,
Jan
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
All this does not explain why we invoke the Devil in the name of this function.
The functions of defence (and prosecution) are well
established in law, where normal advocates argue their respective cases. Invoking the Devil for the sanctification of a person appears to be divisive, with malicious intent. (The technique was originally used by
the Roman Catholic church, so understandable. The RC church is the
source of most sinful activities, after all.)
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes te form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positiverole in the proces.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh? [1]
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary, saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Certainly not.
Early on the church fathers decreed at one of their councils
that the christian god is all powerful, all knowing, all everything.
So the devil has no powers of his own, beyond what god allows him.
All and any dualism is heresy, (of Manichaeism)
and so a good reason for burning all kinds of Gnostics at the stake.
Unfortunately many protestants, in particular American ones,
have forgotten this deep christian truth,
Jan
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes the form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positive role in the process.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh?
You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print.
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
On 10/08/2026 11:05, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 08:16:40 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible >>> is a bad thing?
The devil *is* an advocate.
So, he should be capable of representing himself, without needing an
(human) advocate?
The English word "devil" comes from the Greek "diavolos", which means
adversary or opponent,
Well, actually '????????' (vb.) (diab|ill?, rCLto slanderrCY). Hence >'diavolos' is a slanderer (n.)
and is itself a translation of the Hebrew
"satan" which refers to an accuser or prosecutor in a court of law.
The court of law appears to have come later. God's court came first. If
the devil was its first prosecutor, then we should afford his the same >courtesy as other prosecuting attorneys. After all, we do not vilify >prosecutors in a court of law, no matter how saintly a client they are >prosecuting. It's their job.
Yet, the Devil has such a bad reputation, thanks to Christianity.
In article <1rzmfjk.14kfw561nryg39N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
I've attended many a thesis defense, and never seen an opposition.
There's a *committee* but they're a jury, not the prosecution.
Normally three people, at least one of whom is not directly involved
in supervising the student, often from another school entirely. After
the defense, they deliberate privately, but students are almost never
allowed to schedule a defense until their principal advisor is
satisfied that their thesis merits it. The nature of the deliberation
is (I am told) largely about what additional writing the student
should be asked to do prior to final submission of the thesis.
-GAWollman
Le 10/08/2026 |a 07:16, occam a |-crit :
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint.-a Why?-a Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
own support hierarchy, just as God has his - Son, holy ghost, holy Mary,
saints, seraphim, angels, cherubs, etc.
Surely the devil's anti-hierarchy must have some lawyers, accountants,
and heating engineers to see to the running of the inferno and its
related affairs? Why does he need Earthly advocates?
Devil's advocates now oppose ideas in order to test them. Historically,
an advocatus diaboli took a sceptical view of people's lives before they were declared saints.
The Devil is unfairly demonised, in my opinion. Look at God's actions as reported in the Bible: sending the Flood to kill almost everyone (that
was genocide, surely?); obliterating cities with fire and brimstone;
sending plagues and killing firstborn sonsrCa. I mean, Jesus!
The Devil's actions are not in the same league. By comparison, He's a
bit of a saint.
Hmm. Are Donald Trump's lawyers a new sort of devil's advocate?
[1] Typical example: Canterbury became very rich
after Thomas Becket was sainted, and pilgrims came flooding in.
(but eventually Henry VIII swiped the loot)
The court of law appears to have come later. God's court came first. If
the devil was its first prosecutor, then we should afford his the same courtesy as other prosecuting attorneys. After all, we do not vilify prosecutors in a court of law, no matter how saintly a client they are prosecuting. It's their job.
Yet, the Devil has such a bad reputation, thanks to Christianity.
BTW, all this has changed in recent times. Parkinson's Law applies.
Once the number of members of a body has exceeded a certain bound
much of the resistance to further growth ceases. Sainthood is
nowadays granted on sufficient popular demand. (like to recently dead previous popes) The original requirement for sainthood, that of
having performed three authentic miracles has been dropped. They may
even make a saint out of Gaudi, if the Catalans really insist. (and
perhaps donate enough)
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit.
'he lies*as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies
like a tombstone')
In article <1rzmfjk.14kfw561nryg39N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>, J. J.
Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
[1] His role is similar to that of the opposition at universties
where they still have a public PhD defense.
I've attended many a thesis defense, and never seen an opposition.
There's a *committee* but they're a jury, not the prosecution.
Normally three people, at least one of whom is not directly involved
in supervising the student, often from another school entirely.
After the defense, they deliberate privately, but students are almost
never allowed to schedule a defense until their principal advisor is satisfied that their thesis merits it. The nature of the
deliberation is (I am told) largely about what additional writing the
student should be asked to do prior to final submission of the
thesis.
On 10/08/2026 10:48, occam wrote:
The court of law appears to have come later. God's court came first. If
the devil was its first prosecutor, then we should afford his the same
courtesy as other prosecuting attorneys. After all, we do not vilify
prosecutors in a court of law, no matter how saintly a client they are
prosecuting. It's their job.
Yet, the Devil has such a bad reputation, thanks to Christianity.
Counter question:
Isn't the devil being discussed here simply a construct of (some
versions of) Christianity? Your suggestion implies that he has a
independent existence.
Counter question:
Isn't the devil being discussed here simply a construct of (some
versions of) Christianity? Your suggestion implies that he has a
independent existence.
The names for the devil (Satan, Beelzebub, Lucifer, etc.) are from
earlier Jewish writings. In other words, they existed before
Christianity. And those, if I remember correcly, were the names of the
gods of rival tribes.
On 10/08/26 23:41, J. J. Lodder wrote:
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit.
'he lies*as if*-a it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies
like a tombstone')
There is a comparable saying in English using something like "as if it
were printed in black and white". Unfortunately a mantal block is
preventing me from giving the details.
Of some politicians we say "He cannot lie straight in bed".
On 10/08/2026 08:02, Hibou wrote:
Hmm. Are Donald Trump's lawyers a new sort of devil's advocate?
A junior or trainee barrister who assists a more senior barrister is
called a devil - but I suspect you knew that.
All the people who enable Trump's behaviour...
On 10/08/26 21:58, J. J. Lodder wrote:
BTW, all this has changed in recent times. Parkinson's Law applies.
Once the number of members of a body has exceeded a certain bound
much of the resistance to further growth ceases. Sainthood is
nowadays granted on sufficient popular demand. (like to recently dead
previous popes) The original requirement for sainthood, that of
having performed three authentic miracles has been dropped. They may
even make a saint out of Gaudi, if the Catalans really insist. (and
perhaps donate enough)
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that promoted
her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three seriously ill
people who prayed to her, and recovered. They completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for her and recovered, and those
who prayed to her and did not recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show that
praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome.
It seems to be a
case where the devil's advocate didn't understand statistics.
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that promoted
her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three seriously ill
people who prayed to her, and recovered. They completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for her and recovered, and those
who prayed to her and did not recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show that
praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It seems to be a
case where the devil's advocate didn't understand statistics.
The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and
inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans
is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the
stupidity of an animal" (ibid.).
I worry about humanity's future.
Le 11/08/2026 |a 01:47, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that
promoted her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three
seriously ill people who prayed to her, and recovered. They
completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for
her and recovered, and those who prayed to her and did not
recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show
that praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It
seems to be a case where the devil's advocate didn't understand
statistics.
Did the patients in question pray to her before she was made a saint?
Why would they pray to a non-saint?
On 11/08/26 17:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 11/08/2026 |a 01:47, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that
promoted her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three
seriously ill people who prayed to her, and recovered. They
completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for
her and recovered, and those who prayed to her and did not
recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show
that praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It
seems to be a case where the devil's advocate didn't understand
statistics.
Did the patients in question pray to her before she was made a saint?
-aWhy would they pray to a non-saint?
Anyone who is being considered for sainthood is probably already
renowned for their piety or other positive attributes. Those people
would have considered her to be a pre-saint.
The Catholic Church's requirements for sainthood boil down to a
confident judgement that the candidate is in Heaven and has some sort of access to senior management. That is, it is a confirmation of a fact
that already exists. There could be many people who satisfy the
conditions, but who aren't called saints because the Church isn't
absolutely sure that they're in heaven. I think that church dogma allows praying to those "maybe-saints".
On 10/08/26 21:58, J. J. Lodder wrote:
BTW, all this has changed in recent times. Parkinson's Law applies.
Once the number of members of a body has exceeded a certain bound
much of the resistance to further growth ceases. Sainthood is
nowadays granted on sufficient popular demand. (like to recently dead previous popes) The original requirement for sainthood, that of
having performed three authentic miracles has been dropped. They may
even make a saint out of Gaudi, if the Catalans really insist. (and
perhaps donate enough)
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that promoted
her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three seriously ill
people who prayed to her, and recovered. They completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for her and recovered, and those
who prayed to her and did not recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show that
praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It seems to be a
case where the devil's advocate didn't understand statistics.
Le 11/08/2026 a 01:52, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
On 10/08/26 23:41, J. J. Lodder wrote:
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat' (lit.
'he lies*as if* it is printed', or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies
like a tombstone')
There is a comparable saying in English using something like "as if it
were printed in black and white". Unfortunately a mantal block is preventing me from giving the details.
Of some politicians we say "He cannot lie straight in bed".
There's "gospel truth" too (parole d'ovangile), a term often used
without irony.
Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary).
On 11/08/26 17:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 11/08/2026 a 01:47, Peter Moylan a ocrit :
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that
promoted her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three
seriously ill people who prayed to her, and recovered. They
completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for
her and recovered, and those who prayed to her and did not
recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show
that praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It
seems to be a case where the devil's advocate didn't understand
statistics.
Did the patients in question pray to her before she was made a saint?
Why would they pray to a non-saint?
Anyone who is being considered for sainthood is probably already
renowned for their piety or other positive attributes. Those people
would have considered her to be a pre-saint.
The Catholic Church's requirements for sainthood boil down to a
confident judgement that the candidate is in Heaven and has some sort of access to senior management. That is, it is a confirmation of a fact
that already exists. There could be many people who satisfy the
conditions, but who aren't called saints because the Church isn't
absolutely sure that they're in heaven. I think that church dogma allows praying to those "maybe-saints".
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes the form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positive role in the process.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh?
You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print.
No probem, I guess.
In those long past days only the truth was printed,
and what was printed was the truth.
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat'
(lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed',
or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone')
"Satan" is not so much a name as a job description,
On 11/08/26 17:39, Hibou wrote:
Le 11/08/2026 |a 01:47, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
Australia has just one saint, and I remember the process that
promoted her. Under the "three miracles" rule, they found three
seriously ill people who prayed to her, and recovered. They
completely ignored two important groups: those who didn't pray for
her and recovered, and those who prayed to her and did not
recover.
I'm pretty certain that a proper statistical analysis would show
that praying to her is unlikely to have a positive outcome. It
seems to be a case where the devil's advocate didn't understand
statistics.
Did the patients in question pray to her before she was made a saint?
-aWhy would they pray to a non-saint?
Anyone who is being considered for sainthood is probably already
renowned for their piety or other positive attributes. Those people
would have considered her to be a pre-saint.
The Catholic Church's requirements for sainthood boil down to a
confident judgement that the candidate is in Heaven and has some sort of access to senior management. That is, it is a confirmation of a fact
that already exists. There could be many people who satisfy the
conditions, but who aren't called saints because the Church isn't
absolutely sure that they're in heaven. I think that church dogma allows praying to those "maybe-saints".
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
There's "gospel truth" too (parole d'ovangile), a term often used
without irony.
Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary).
There are coppery meters too?
Coppery - like copper; irony - like iron (Uxbridge English Dictionary).
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend
the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes the form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positive role in the process.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh?
You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print.
No probem, I guess.
In those long past days only the truth was printed,
and what was printed was the truth.
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat'
(lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed',
or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone')
I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil
a diabolical job.
That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy
to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the
fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a >dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he
fooled so many people?
On 11/08/26 16:00, Hibou wrote:
The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and
inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans
is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the
stupidity of an animal" (ibid.).
I worry about humanity's future.
That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy
to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the
fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he
fooled so many people?
Just recently I was reading an article about the general decline of
reading and writing skills, caused by an excessive dependence on getting
the answers from computers. Just in passing the author mentioned that
the USA had already entered the post-literate period. So maybe the
country's political ills arise from a failure of education.
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend
the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that
these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the
indefensible is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes the form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positive role in the process.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh?
You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print.
No probem, I guess.
In those long past days only the truth was printed,
and what was printed was the truth.
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat'
(lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed',
or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone')
I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil
a diabolical job.
I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
(the little setting devil)
He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors
that become meaningful in unsuspected ways.
He long predates Freud.--
Jan
On 11/08/2026 08:45, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 11/08/26 16:00, Hibou wrote:Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show up
The astonishing thing about Mr Trump is that he's so brazen (and
inept) in doing this, and the astonishing thing about the Americans
is that so many of them swallow his nonsense "easily, with the
stupidity of an animal" (ibid.).
I worry about humanity's future.
That has bothered me too. There's nothing subtle about Trump. It's easy
to tell when he's lying (his mouth is open), and he doesn't hide the
fact that he doesn't have a clue what is going on. Not long ago he did a
dementia assessment and he thought it was an IQ test. So why has he
fooled so many people?
Just recently I was reading an article about the general decline of
reading and writing skills, caused by an excessive dependence on getting
the answers from computers. Just in passing the author mentioned that
the USA had already entered the post-literate period. So maybe the
country's political ills arise from a failure of education.
in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC).
It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to show
up in right wing media.
Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a carefully >curated version of the current White House.
On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 15:41:45 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Aug 2026 10:41:29 +0200
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend
the devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that >>>>>> these advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the >>>>>> indefensible is a bad thing?
Not at all, this is just a popular name for the functionary.
Creating saints takes the form of a trial.
His role is to be critical of the evidence,
so this is a positive role in the process.
We wouldn't want a false saint to be proclaimed, eh?
You'd have a devil of a time getting that into print.
No probem, I guess.
In those long past days only the truth was printed,
and what was printed was the truth.
By a Dutch set expression: 'hij liegt alsof het gedrukt staat'
(lit. 'he lies *as if* it is printed',
or more idiomatic perhaps, 'he lies like a tombstone')
I was alluding to the Printer's Devil (a junior imp in the works)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer's_devil
a diabolical job.
I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
(the little setting devil)
He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors that become meaningful in unsuspected ways.
When they later show up in plagiarised work?
Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show up
in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC).
It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to show
up in right wing media.
Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a carefully curated version of the current White House.
But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for
example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran
is nearly over:
<https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has-said/>
2026-06-11
That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to
him, and set the little grey cells in motion.
Le 11/08/2026 |a 20:46, Sam Plusnet a |-crit :
Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show
up in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC).
It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to
show up in right wing media.
Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a
carefully curated version of the current White House.
But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for
example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran
is nearly over:
<https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has-said/>
2026-06-11
That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to
him, and set the little grey cells in motion.
I quoted from Orwell. Here he is again:
"Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four
hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the stupidity of an animal. The eyeless creature at the other table
swallowed it fanatically, passionately, with a furious desire to track
down, denounce, and vaporise anyone who should suggest that last week
the ration had been thirty grams. Syme, too - in some more complex way, involving doublethink - Syme swallowed it."
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
(the little setting devil)
He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors
that become-a meaningful in unsuspected ways.
When they later show up in plagiarised work?
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
[...] I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure that didn't say anything sensible.
After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck together.
On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
correcting) the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
that didn't say anything sensible.
After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck together.
On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
correcting)-a the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
that didn't say anything sensible.
After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck together.
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
"Satan" is not so much a name as a job description,
There's a long article on how the word is used in the Bible in the
Dictionary of Deities and Demons (DDD), which is available from Amazon
at an absurd price or for borrowing at archive.org.
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
To be clear, 'devil's advocates' are normally humans who defend the
devil's viewpoint. Why? Isn't the implicit assumption that these
advocates are defending a bad thing, and that defending the indefensible
is a bad thing?
I haven't done much bible research, but I'm guessing the devil has his
Le 11/08/2026 |a 20:46, Sam Plusnet a |-crit :
Stories which portray Trump in a good light are rarely going to show
up in left-leaning US media - MS Now for example, (formerly MSNBC).
It is equally unlikely for anything which does not flatter Trump to
show up in right wing media.
Those on the right who _do_ follow politics are going to see a
carefully curated version of the current White House.
But but, Mr Trump's assertions are not self-consistent. He has, for
example, repeatedly said, over months and months, that his war in Iran
is nearly over:
<https://www.cbsnews.com/news/when-will-the-iran-war-end-what-trump-has- said/> 2026-06-11
That article was published in June and here we are in August. Mr Trump's supporters don't need any other source. All they have to do is listen to him, and set the little grey cells in motion.
I quoted from Orwell. Here he is again:
"Was it possible that they could swallow that, after only twenty-four
hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Parsons swallowed it easily, with the stupidity of an animal. The eyeless creature at the other table
swallowed it fanatically, passionately, with a furious desire to track
down, denounce, and vaporise anyone who should suggest that last week
the ration had been thirty grams. Syme, too - in some more complex way, involving doublethink - Syme swallowed it."
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
On 11/08/2026 22:02, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 11/08/2026 14:56, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I know. Dutch has 'het zetduveltje', from the days of lead.
(the little setting devil)
He, in his unseen devilish ways, introduces all those typesetting errors >>> that become-a meaningful in unsuspected ways.
When they later show up in plagiarised work?
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism of
the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or correcting) the
grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward typo ('het
zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was, nevertheless, proof of
cut 'n copy.
On 12/08/2026 12:14, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 12/08/26 19:09, occam wrote:
I am not sure if this is a reference of the recent case of plagiarism
of the Cambridge professor Jason Arday? One of the pieces of evidence
that highlighted the case was text that he had copied from another
source and pasted it into his Thesis - without noticing (or
correcting)-a the grammatical error. OK, it wasn't a straightforward
typo ('het zetduveltje') but a grammatical error that was,
nevertheless, proof of cut 'n copy.
I once had a similar case when grading a student essay. Mostly it was
well written, but there was a strange sentence in the middle that made
no sense. Not a typo, not sloppy writing, but a weird sentence structure
that didn't say anything sensible.
After a bit of searching I found a library book with two pages stuck
together.
That last sentence worries me. I hope you washed your hands thoroughly.
In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
You mean the _real_ enemy.
Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems!
I havenrCOt ever had any desire to cheat in academic work, but it did
occur to me that, if yourCOre comfortable in multiple languages, an
approach that would be difficult to detect automatically would be to translate relevant source material in a language that is not that of
the assessment and plagiarise that way. Automated translation is good
enough for the major languages these days that even doing it that way
might work.
An example I noticed many years ago concerns one of the most famous
papers in biochemistry, written by Leonor Michaelis and Maud Menten
in 1913. In 1934 it was cited in another famous paper by Hans
Lineweaver and Dean Burk. Unfortunately they had an error (wrong page
number, I think, but no matter) in the reference. Afterwards I
noticed that many of the papers that cited Michaelis and Menten had
exactly same error as Lineweaver and Burk, making it clear that they
cited the 1913 paper without actually reading it or even taking it
off the shelf in the library. (It was in German, but that's no
excuse.)
In article <q96l7l98bpre0snkko1epreug0n7poad6l@4ax.com>,
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
"Satan" is not so much a name as a job description,
There's a long article on how the word is used in the Bible in the
Dictionary of Deities and Demons (DDD), which is available from Amazon
at an absurd price
or for borrowing at archive.org.
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote:
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
You mean the _real_ enemy.
Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems!
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, apparently.
Le 13/08/2026 |a 02:02, Garrett Wollman a |-crit :
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote:
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
You mean the _real_ enemy.
Not Iran or China or North Korea etc.-a It's them Dems!
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man.-a Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
And those with less than $1x10rU| are just 'losers'?
It's bleak, isn't it?
(I'm amused to hear that, when scared, the bugger hides among the burgers:
"The revelation comes after reports that Trump boarded Air Force One on
8 July in view of television cameras, before hiding in a catering truck
to be transported to a military aircraft" - <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c980r4wpl9lo>)
In article <cA5fS.3880$yTD7.2941@fx12.ams1>, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com>:
On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote:
In article <ne2dqtFnph1U1@mid.individual.net>,
Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
Are Trump's supporters just stupid or are they using doublethink?
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to
hurt the same people as they do.
You mean the _real_ enemy.
Not Iran or China or North Korea etc. It's them Dems!
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners, apparently.
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Garrett Wollman wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
-GAWollman
Remember when Garrett Wollman bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
-GAWollman
There does seem to be a genetic test for how European your ancestors are (and
even suggestions of which European country). I would not be surprised that as the number of folks tested increases, the data on other continents will become as refined.
/dps
Snidely wrote on 8/13/2026 :
Remember when Garrett Wollman bragged outrageously?-a That was Thursday:
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian >>>>> American cis man.-a Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
There does seem to be a genetic test for how European your ancestors
are (and even suggestions of which European country).-a I would not be
surprised that as the number of folks tested increases, the data on
other continents will become as refined.
/dps
The genes related to lactose tolerance are probably part of the tracing. -aMaybe also genes related to chloresterol.
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' .
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It's time for an albino president, a person of no colour.
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt.
On 13/08/2026 09:37, Hibou wrote:
Le 13/08/2026 |a 02:02, Garrett Wollman a |-crit :
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 12/08/2026 16:25, Garrett Wollman wrote:
The only thing that matters to Trump's supporters is that he wants to >>>>> hurt the same people as they do.
You mean the _real_ enemy.
Not Iran or China or North Korea etc.-a It's them Dems!
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man.-a Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
And those with less than $1x10rU| are just 'losers'?
It's bleak, isn't it?
(I'm amused to hear that, when scared, the bugger hides among the burgers: >>
"The revelation comes after reports that Trump boarded Air Force One on
8 July in view of television cameras, before hiding in a catering truck
to be transported to a military aircraft" -
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c980r4wpl9lo>)
Even more telling is that the rest of the Air Force One passengers (journalists etc) were allowed to travel on the suspect airplane, and
take the risk on behalf of the Orange One.
Le 13/08/2026 a 15:26, Garrett Wollman a ocrit :
J. J. Lodder wrote:
Garrett Wollman wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It's time for an albino president, a person of no colour.
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
Remember when Garrett Wollman bragged outrageously? That was Thursday:
In article <1rzrwrf.1phijl31wwmcz5N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:
Garrett Wollman <wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
No, in his case it means anyone who isn't a straight white Christian
American cis man. Well, they'll make an exception for Afrikaners,
apparently.
Without genetic testing for how 'white' they really are,
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
-GAWollman
There does seem to be a genetic test for how European your ancestors
are (and even suggestions of which European country). I would not be surprised that as the number of folks tested increases, the data on
other continents will become as refined.
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
In article <ne6itiFdku0U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' .
Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
In the late 19th century, Irish people whose skin was as pasty as mine
were not considered "white". Light-skinned people from the
Mediterranean and Middle East are not today considered "white",
especially if they speak Arabic, Maltese, or Turkish. (The French
have always gotten a pass, despite being Catholic. The Italians, not
so much.)
-GAWollman
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african' DNA,
or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
There is also the Dulux colour chart of 'whiteness'.
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' . That sounds too
woke, unless there is another definition of social I'm unaware of. Some biological mechanism is determining the colour of our skin. It is
independent of where we are born, where we are educated, our religion or
what what music we listen to.
Den 13.08.2026 kl. 18.11 skrev Hibou:
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It's time for an albino president, a person of no colour.
They would be seen as white - very white actually.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Johnny+Winter+American+blues+guitarist+and+singer+%281944%E2%80%932014%29&ia=images&iax=images&atb=v536-1
In article <ne6itiFdku0U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' .
Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
In the late 19th century, Irish people whose skin was as pasty as mine
were not considered "white". Light-skinned people from the
Mediterranean and Middle East are not today considered "white",
especially if they speak Arabic, Maltese, or Turkish. (The French
have always gotten a pass, despite being Catholic. The Italians, not
so much.)
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on steroids) square.
The whitest non-albino person I ever met was of Circassian ancestry.
Le 13/08/2026 |a 20:06, occam a |-crit :
There is also the Dulux colour chart of 'whiteness'.
Oh, that's a shaggy-dog story.
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' . That sounds too
woke, unless there is another definition of social I'm unaware of.-a Some
biological mechanism is determining the colour of our skin. It is
independent of where we are born, where we are educated, our religion or
what what music we listen to.
Skin colour is determined genetically, and culture correlates with it.
Birds with similar feathers flock together. Wherever you're born (Auchtermuchty, Bamako, ChihuahuarCa), you're likely to have the
predominant local skin colour (i.e. genes), customs, and beliefs.
* (J. J. Lodder) <1rzssj6.p9n7tx1ihaqfnN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
Wrote on Thu, 13 Aug 2026 22:40:28 +0200:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african' DNA,
or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
did you know neanderthaler is an anagram of nederlaenther
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on steroids) square.
* (J. J. Lodder) <1rzssj6.p9n7tx1ihaqfnN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
Wrote on Thu, 13 Aug 2026 22:40:28 +0200:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african' DNA,
or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
did you know neanderthaler is an anagram of nederlaenther
On 14/08/2026 10:09, Hibou wrote:
Birds with similar feathers flock together. Wherever you're born
(Auchtermuchty, Bamako, ChihuahuarCa), you're likely to have the
predominant local skin colour (i.e. genes), customs, and beliefs.
Again, the wrong premise for arguing for culture affecting colour of
skin. A statement worthy of a social scientist.
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
On 14/08/2026 10:22, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
The whitest non-albino person I ever met was of Circassian ancestry.
Is that someone who's ancestors were Circus people ? Those creepy
tunnels of horror are enough to make anyone turn white-as-a-sheet.
On 14/08/26 20:00, occam wrote:
On 14/08/2026 10:09, Hibou wrote:
Birds with similar feathers flock together. Wherever you're born
(Auchtermuchty, Bamako, ChihuahuarCa), you're likely to have the
predominant local skin colour (i.e. genes), customs, and beliefs.
Again, the wrong premise for arguing for culture affecting colour of
skin. A statement worthy of a social scientist.
Did Hibou ever argue that culture affects skin colour? I seem to have
missed this extraordinary claim.
On 14/08/2026 08:47, Madhu wrote:
* (J. J. Lodder) <1rzssj6.p9n7tx1ihaqfnN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> :
Wrote on Thu, 13 Aug 2026 22:40:28 +0200:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african' DNA,
or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
did you know neanderthaler is an anagram of nederlaenther
Neither of which appear to be English words.
Is there a specific word to describe cross-linguistic anagrams?
On 14/08/2026 13:13, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/08/26 20:00, occam wrote:
On 14/08/2026 10:09, Hibou wrote:
Birds with similar feathers flock together. Wherever you're born
(Auchtermuchty, Bamako, ChihuahuarCa), you're likely to have the
predominant local skin colour (i.e. genes), customs, and beliefs.
Again, the wrong premise for arguing for culture affecting colour of
skin. A statement worthy of a social scientist.
Did Hibou ever argue that culture affects skin colour? I seem to have
missed this extraordinary claim.
Hibou QUOTE: "Skin colour is determined genetically, and culture
correlates with it. "
I believe he is confusing 'correlation' with 'causation'. Otherwise why
would he add that unnecessary statement at the end of a (correct)
statement that colour is determined genetically.
[Please recall that this argument started with the spurious statement,
from Garrett Wollman that: "There is no genetic test for whiteness;
it's social, not biological." ]
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on steroids) square.
Den 13.08.2026 kl. 21.31 skrev Aidan Kehoe:
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt.
I thought that earwax had an important function. Is it just a superfluous byproduct?
On 14/08/26 06:40, J. J. Lodder wrote:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
I test out as 3% neanderthal, which is a bit on the high side. However,
it makes sense that having a predominantly Western European ancestry
should correlate with a high neanderthal component; they occupied the
same lands.
> > It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
> > develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt.
>
> I thought that earwax had an important function. Is it just a superfluous
> byproduct?
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I donrCOt deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
On 14/08/2026 10:09, Hibou wrote:
Le 13/08/2026 |a 20:06, occam a |-crit :
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' . That sounds too
woke, unless there is another definition of social I'm unaware of.-a Some >>> biological mechanism is determining the colour of our skin. It is
independent of where we are born, where we are educated, our religion or >>> what what music we listen to.
Skin colour is determined genetically, and culture correlates with it.
How so 'culture correlates with it' have anything to do with skin? You
know that correlation is not the same as causality.
Birds with similar feathers flock together. Wherever you're born
(Auchtermuchty, Bamako, ChihuahuarCa), you're likely to have the
predominant local skin colour (i.e. genes), customs, and beliefs.
Again, the wrong premise for arguing for culture affecting colour of
skin.
A statement worthy of a social scientist. [...]
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
Aidan Kehoe wrote in article <27263.5943.31390.496632
@parhasard.net>:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
It's a minor point which I know you're not seriously asserting,
but for the record, white people don't need silly ear treatments.
If we did, we couldn't have existed until PoC invented ear irrigation to let us.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Aidan Kehoe wrote in article <27263.5943.31390.496632
@parhasard.net>:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear
irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
It's a minor point which I know you're not seriously asserting,
but for the record, white people don't need silly ear treatments.
If we did, we couldn't have existed until PoC invented ear
irrigation to let us.
If we did, we couldn't have existed until PoC invented ear irrigation to let
us.
People of Color?
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear
irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
One's skin colour depends on where one is from,
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear >> >> irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
The vast majority of people use Q-tips without issue.
In fact, I think you're the first (real) person I've ever communicated with
who had an issue with swabbing his ears.
To me, that seems more like a freak accident than a reason to
reevaluate Q-tips. I'm not saying you should switch back, though.
If you're happy this way, bless you.
Ar an tri|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on steroids)
square.
I hadnrCOt known there was indigenous sickle cell in southern Italy; thanks. Unsurprisingly thatrCOs the bit with Arab genetics. DoesnrCOt seem to be any in
Spain.
In article <MPG.44e8fa5a7b2190d98a30b@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Doctors say that here, and they aren't selling anything.
What's more, the instructions on the box say the same.
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 11:12:18 -0400, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
If you want to advance an argument, it's more effective if you stick
to realism.
Doctors do not "sell" ear irrigation. Doctors treat patients who come
to them with a problem, and they provide the treatment that they feel
is the safest and most effective way of treating the problem.
In fact, the makers of the Q-Tips brand state this on thepackage:
"WARNING DO NOT INSERT SWAB INTO EAR CANAL. ENTERING THE EAR CANAL
CAN CAUSE INJURY"
The vast majority of people use Q-tips without issue.
True, and the vast majority of people do something stupid quite
frequently.
To me, that seems more like a freak accident than a reason to
reevaluate Q-tips. I'm not saying you should switch back, though.
If you're happy this way, bless you.
A "freak accident" is usually the excuse someone gives to describe
something they did that caused harm to themselves or others that they
didn't expect to cause harm.
AFAIK, people with sickle cell anemia tend to be more resistant to
malaria, which was widespread in parts of Italy for centuries. I think
that's the real correlation.
Den 14.08.2026 kl. 16.00 skrev The True Melissa:
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Q.tips are fine,
but my fingernails are useless in this regard.
I never did anything but ordinary wash until I started using hearing aids. Now I have to rinse my ears carefully regularly.
You've seen those cardboard boxes with the oblong holes in the
side to use as handles, haven't you? Examine the box. There is
usually text insisting that those handles are "access holes" and
not to be used for carrying.
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear >>>> irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
The vast majority of people use Q-tips without issue. In fact, I
think you're the first (real) person I've ever communicated with
who had an issue with swabbing his ears.
To me, that seems more like a freak accident than a reason to
reevaluate Q-tips.
I'm not saying you should switch back, though.
If you're happy this way, bless you.
I never did anything but ordinary wash until I started using hearing
aids. Now I have to rinse my ears carefully regularly.
For a while I was using a nasal syringe from the baby department, but
the squeeze bottle from a sinus rinse kit is my tool of choice now.
Hibou hat am 14.08.2026 um 15:31 geschrieben:
One's skin colour depends on where one is from,
Thanks for the laugh.
Three blonde and fair-skinned grandparents, the
fourth one had an olive skin, judging from old photos. All four and
their parents from the same region in Northern Italy. Sorry, I never
went back farther than that.
Result: at least one aunt and one cousin visibly inherited his skin colour.
Tony Cooper wrote in article <lbdu7lti1kbkc09kgakt2vp329082vlf8t@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 11:12:18 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
If you want to advance an argument, it's more effective if you stick
to realism.
I'll continue to do so, thanks. :-)
Doctors do not "sell" ear irrigation. Doctors treat patients who come
to them with a problem, and they provide the treatment that they feel
is the safest and most effective way of treating the problem.
Doctors absolutely do sell their services. So do dentists,
physical therapists, and all others in the health care field.
That's how they make a living.
In fact, the makers of the Q-Tips brand state this on the package:
"WARNING DO NOT INSERT SWAB INTO EAR CANAL. ENTERING THE EAR CANAL
CAN CAUSE INJURY"
I've already addressed this. I don't feel like typing it again,
so just consult the other message if you want.
The vast majority of people use Q-tips without issue.
True, and the vast majority of people do something stupid quite
frequently.
A stupid plan that works isn't stupid.
If something almost everyone does frequently were genuinely
dangerous, we wouldn't need text on the box to tell us about it.
To me, that seems more like a freak accident than a reason to
reevaluate Q-tips. I'm not saying you should switch back, though.
If you're happy this way, bless you.
A "freak accident" is usually the excuse someone gives to describe
something they did that caused harm to themselves or others that they
didn't expect to cause harm.
Clean your ears any way you like, my friend.
Yes, they do. Companies don't like being sued.
I feel confident that Tony is making a smart choice, and notmisjudging
the risks.
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote or quoted:
Yes, they do. Companies don't like being sued.
In 2020, I published this German-language side of a(n invented)
package of cotton swabs. It says, "EAR CANAL SWABS, 200 pieces,
Warning! Do not insert into the ear canal!".
On 13/08/2026 21:14, Garrett Wollman wrote:
In article <ne6itiFdku0U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' .
Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what social 'scientists' say.
When I first arrived in the UK, I heard the terms "banana" (yellow on
the outside, white on the inside) to describe a Chinese student, and "coconut" (brown on the outside, white on the inside) to describe a
Malaysian friend. These terms are are a reaction to your woke
definition of skin colour.
In the late 19th century, Irish people whose skin was as pasty as mine
were not considered "white". Light-skinned people from the
Mediterranean and Middle East are not today considered "white",
especially if they speak Arabic, Maltese, or Turkish. (The French
have always gotten a pass, despite being Catholic. The Italians, not
so much.)
-GAWollman
Richard Tobin wrote in article <115nd6v$aeuq$1
@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>:
In article <MPG.44e8fa5a7b2190d98a30b@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Doctors say that here, and they aren't selling anything.
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
What's more, the instructions on the box say the same.
Yes, they do. Companies don't like being sued.
You've seen those cardboard boxes with the oblong holes in the
side to use as handles, haven't you?
Examine the box. There is
usually text insisting that those handles are "access holes" and
not to be used for carrying. This is so you can't sue them if the
cardboard rips, not because they think anyone could use those
dinky holes for useful access. They're obviously handles, but
we're still warned not to use them.
Similarly, Q-tips are not really for cleaning the exterior of
ears. Washclothes do a fine job of that.
The vast majority of people use Q-tips without issue.
True, and the vast majority of people do something stupid quite
frequently.
A stupid plan that works isn't stupid.
On 14/08/26 19:53, occam wrote:
On 14/08/2026 10:22, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
The whitest non-albino person I ever met was of Circassian ancestry.
Is that someone who's ancestors were Circus people ? Those creepy
tunnels of horror are enough to make anyone turn white-as-a-sheet.
Amoung the Circussians, the people with the whitest faces are the clowns.
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe wrote in article <27263.5943.31390.496632
@parhasard.net>:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear
irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips. I did at one time,
but learned my lesson when the tip detached in my ear. Efforts to
extract it just pushed it in more, and it had to be removed at an
Urgent Care.
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 11:12:18 -0400, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear >>>>> irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
If you want to advance an argument, it's more effective if you stick
to realism.
Doctors do not "sell" ear irrigation. Doctors treat patients who come
to them with a problem, and they provide the treatment that they feel
is the safest and most effective way of treating the problem.
The people who make OTC ear irrigation products do "sell" it by
designing packaging information that suggests that it is the better treatment. So do the makers of alternative products. The charge for
a doctor visit would be the same if he/she used a Q-Tip or suction/irrigation.
In fact, the makers of the Q-Tips brand state this on the package:
"WARNING DO NOT INSERT SWAB INTO EAR CANAL. ENTERING THE EAR CANAL
CAN CAUSE INJURY"
Ar an tri|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
> Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
>
> > It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological.
> > Whites develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop
> > sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
>
> Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people from
> Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on steroids)
> square.
I hadnrCOt known there was indigenous sickle cell in southern Italy; thanks. Unsurprisingly thatrCOs the bit with Arab genetics. DoesnrCOt seem to be any in
Spain.
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:time,
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips. I did at one
but learned my lesson when the tip detached in my ear. Efforts to
extract it just pushed it in more, and it had to be removed at an
Urgent Care.
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
One end of that device looks very much like something you would use to
serve up honey.
On 14/08/2026 13:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/08/26 06:40, J. J. Lodder wrote:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
I test out as 3% neanderthal, which is a bit on the high side. However,
it makes sense that having a predominantly Western European ancestry
should correlate with a high neanderthal component; they occupied the
same lands.
Also well known is that there was cross-breeding between Neanderthals
and Homo Sapiens 40000 - 50000 years ago. Normally I'd say "let's forget
it ever happened", but apparently genes are not so good at forgetting.
An AI search says: "Modern non-African humans carry about 1-2%
Neanderthal DNA in their genomes." So, your 3% is on the high side.
There is a good reason why I have never tested my DNA. Privacy issues
aside, I'd hate to be irked by a doubtful statistic for the rest of my
life, knowing that I paid for the self-inflicted irritation.
On 14/08/2026 14:25, occam wrote:
On 14/08/2026 13:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/08/26 06:40, J. J. Lodder wrote:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
I test out as 3% neanderthal, which is a bit on the high side. However,
it makes sense that having a predominantly Western European ancestry
should correlate with a high neanderthal component; they occupied the
same lands.
Also well known is that there was cross-breeding between Neanderthals
and Homo Sapiens 40000 - 50000 years ago. Normally I'd say "let's forget
it ever happened", but apparently genes are not so good at forgetting.
An AI search says: "Modern non-African humans carry about 1-2%
Neanderthal DNA in their genomes." So, your 3% is on the high side.
There is a good reason why I have never tested my DNA. Privacy issues
aside, I'd hate to be irked by a doubtful statistic for the rest of my
life, knowing that I paid for the self-inflicted irritation.
I haven't troubled to do such testing, but why would it "irk" you?
Could there be anything you might find, from such a test, which would
alter your opinion of yourself?
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe wrote in article <27263.5943.31390.496632
@parhasard.net>:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry;
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear >>>> irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips. I did at one time,
but learned my lesson when the tip detached in my ear. Efforts to
extract it just pushed it in more, and it had to be removed at an
Urgent Care.
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
One end of that device looks very much like something you would use to
serve up honey.
Sam Plusnet wrote in article <duKfS.2259$B5g9.188@fx14.ams1>:
time,
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips. I did at one
but learned my lesson when the tip detached in my ear. Efforts to
extract it just pushed it in more, and it had to be removed at an
Urgent Care.
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
One end of that device looks very much like something you would use to
serve up honey.
This device also says that it should not be inserted in the ear
canal.
# Directions for cleaning the entrance area to the ear canal and
# the outer ear do not enter the ear canal beyond the indicated
# stop line in the illustration on back of product packaging.
I watched their little video to learn the stop line. They'll let
you insert it a bit, but only a bit.
On 14/08/2026 14:25, occam wrote:
On 14/08/2026 13:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/08/26 06:40, J. J. Lodder wrote:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
I test out as 3% neanderthal, which is a bit on the high side. However,
it makes sense that having a predominantly Western European ancestry
should correlate with a high neanderthal component; they occupied the
same lands.
Also well known is that there was cross-breeding between Neanderthals
and Homo Sapiens 40000 - 50000 years ago. Normally I'd say "let's forget
it ever happened", but apparently genes are not so good at forgetting.
An AI search says: "Modern non-African humans carry about 1-2%
Neanderthal DNA in their genomes." So, your 3% is on the high side.
There is a good reason why I have never tested my DNA. Privacy issues
aside, I'd hate to be irked by a doubtful statistic for the rest of my
life,-a knowing that I paid for the self-inflicted irritation.
I haven't troubled to do such testing, but why would it "irk" you?
Could there be anything you might find, from such a test, which would
alter your opinion of yourself?
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians), and, of
course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and communist on
the inside.
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East
Asians to dry; I donrCOt deal with enough East Asians to know whether
this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed
there.
Den 14.08.2026 kl. 16.00 skrev The True Melissa:
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Q.tips are fine, but my fingernails are useless in this regard.
I never did anything but ordinary wash until I started using hearing
aids. Now I have to rinse my ears carefully regularly.
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians), and, of course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and communist on
the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the red
states feel about that?
There is a good reason why I have never tested my DNA. Privacy
issues aside, I'd hate to be irked by a doubtful statistic for the
rest of my life, knowing that I paid for the self-inflicted
irritation.
I have never considered checking my DNA. I don't know how I would
benefit in any way by doing so.
What I don't want to know is if I'm related to someone I don't
already know I'm related to. Or, for them to find they are related
to me.
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters. The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'. And yes, it has changed his opinion of his Scottish-ness .
Peter Moylan wrote in article <115o8f3$2ud77$1@dont-email.me>:
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians), and, of
course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and communist on
the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the red
states feel about that?
I heard that "communist" as a child and teenager, along with
"pink" to mean communist sympathies. People my age didn't use the
term seriously, but our elders did, so we learned it.
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians), and, of
course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and communist on
the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the red
states feel about that?
Richard Tobin wrote in article <115nd6v$aeuq$1
@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>:
In article <MPG.44e8fa5a7b2190d98a30b@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Doctors say that here, and they aren't selling anything.
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 09:30:42 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians),
and, of course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and
communist on the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the
red states feel about that?
A "red" state is a state that votes Republicans. "Reds" was a term
used to describe communists. The "red scare" - associated with Sen
Joe McCarthy in the 1950's - was finding commies under everyone's
bed, but "reds" in that context hasn't been a term in vogue for
several years.
The "red states", "blue states" designation didn't catch on until
about 2000. "Purple states" - the swing states - followed.
On 14/08/2026 18:24, The True Melissa wrote:
Richard Tobin wrote in article <115nd6v$aeuq$1
@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>:
In article <MPG.44e8fa5a7b2190d98a30b@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Doctors say that here, and they aren't selling anything.
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in this context?
To this BrE speaker it sounds as though someone wanders around an office >building offering to wash out employee's ears.
Perhaps a variant on the Telephone Sanitisers of yesteryear?
P.S. The company I worked for finally decided to cut the monthly(?) >telephone cleansing routine on cost grounds.
Since everyone had their own phone, rarely used by others, I couldn't--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
see why they should be a particular vector for spreading disease.
(The sickly employee could manage that task without help.)
In Australia blue is the colour of the Liberal Party (right-wing) and
red is the colour of the Labor Party (left-wing). Similar statements can
be made in several other countries. The US seems to be the only country
that has flipped the colour code.
On 15/08/26 10:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 09:30:42 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians),
and, of course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and
communist on the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the
red states feel about that?
A "red" state is a state that votes Republicans. "Reds" was a term
used to describe communists. The "red scare" - associated with Sen
Joe McCarthy in the 1950's - was finding commies under everyone's
bed, but "reds" in that context hasn't been a term in vogue for
several years.
The "red states", "blue states" designation didn't catch on until
about 2000. "Purple states" - the swing states - followed.
In Australia blue is the colour of the Liberal Party (right-wing) and
red is the colour of the Labor Party (left-wing). Similar statements can
be made in several other countries. The US seems to be the only country
that has flipped the colour code.
On 14/08/26 23:25, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East
Asians to dry; I donrCOt deal with enough East Asians to know whether
this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed
there.
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
instead, and see how that works out.-- Katy Jennison
In article <ne6itiFdku0U1@mid.individual.net>,
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
I can't believe the colour of the skin is 'social' .
Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
In the late 19th century, Irish people whose skin was as pasty as mine
were not considered "white". Light-skinned people from the
Mediterranean and Middle East are not today considered "white",
especially if they speak Arabic, Maltese, or Turkish. (The French
have always gotten a pass, despite being Catholic. The Italians, not
so much.)
What does "woke" mean?Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what >social 'scientists' say.
I never did anything but ordinary wash until I started using hearing
-aaids. Now I have to rinse my ears carefully regularly.
In my younger days I had to have my ears washed out every summer.
Apparently salt water makes the wax solidify.
On 15/08/26 09:56, The True Melissa wrote:
Peter Moylan wrote in article <115o8f3$2ud77$1@dont-email.me>:
On 15/08/26 05:05, Radey Shouman wrote:
In the US I have heard "oreo" (black/white, and probably the
original. "Banana", "apple" (red/white, of American Indians), and, of
course, "watermelon", meaning green on the outside and communist on
the inside.
Do Americans still use "red" to mean "communist", then? How do the red
states feel about that?
I heard that "communist" as a child and teenager, along with
"pink" to mean communist sympathies. People my age didn't use the
term seriously, but our elders did, so we learned it.
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
On 14/08/2026 18:24, The True Melissa wrote:
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in this context?
To this BrE speaker it sounds as though someone wanders around an office building offering to wash out employee's ears.
Perhaps a variant on the Telephone Sanitisers of yesteryear?
P.S. The company I worked for finally decided to cut the monthly(?) telephone cleansing routine on cost grounds.
Since everyone had their own phone, rarely used by others, I couldn't
see why they should be a particular vector for spreading disease.
(The sickly employee could manage that task without help.)
Yes, they do. Companies don't like being sued.
Yes, that's the legal defense theory known as "We can't believe we
need to tell you this." Places where coffee is sold to go in paper
cups put "Contents may be hot" to prevent lawsuits.
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in this context?
It comes across as awkward, but I know what she meant. She is saying
that ear irrigation was originally something done by a doctor* in
his/her office, but can now be done with an OTC (over-the-counter)
products.
I'm not sure she's right. Bulb syringes may have been used at home
before doctor started doing the procedure, but I really don't know.
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
I have never figured out how to shorten URLs. I have "Tiny URL", but
people object to that being used.
I have never figured out how to shorten URLs. I have "Tiny URL", but
people object to that being used.
What I don't want to know is if I'm related to someone I don't
already know I'm related to.-a Or, for them to find they are related
to me.
My wife discovered a new half-sister a couple of days ago. She was
pleased to discover the connection, and the two have already had a
couple of phone calls.
It doesn't particularly bother me, except for one detail. In this
country, people with dementia cannot apply for voluntary assisted dying.
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 01.42 skrev Peter Moylan:
I never did anything but ordinary wash until I started using
hearing aids. Now I have to rinse my ears carefully regularly.
In my younger days I had to have my ears washed out every summer.
Apparently salt water makes the wax solidify.
We (my childhood family) didn't notice that. We swam in the sea as
much as our mother would allow. She had some strange notion about
swimming too much or getting too cold that should be harmful. But we
went to the sea a lot, especially after my parents bought a lot for
a summer cottage. But maybe we don't produce much earwax?
Den 14.08.2026 kl. 21.44 skrev Tony Cooper:
Yes, they do. Companies don't like being sued.
Yes, that's the legal defense theory known as "We can't believe we
need to tell you this." Places where coffee is sold to go in paper
cups put "Contents may be hot" to prevent lawsuits.
One company was actually sued because their coffee was hot, and they
lost. It's the case where an elder woman took the coffee in the car (as passenger) and it spilled all over her thighs and burned her badly. In
the circles that I interacted with, we laughed at the thought of hot
coffee being a surprise, but it wasn't as stupid as it looked. As far as
I know coffe to-go in USA is not as hot as the coffe you brew at home,
so it was a genuine surprise for her that is was so hot.
The coffe I buy at the resting areas at the motor way is hot enough to--
cause serious burns. That is no surptise to me, but cars today have
holders for coffee mugs, so such an accident is not likely to happen.
Anyway, for mine own part, I use cotton pads rolled up. Seem to work fine.
But then I grew up inland and swam in a river. I was in my twenties
before I swam in the ocean.
There's a coffee shop near me, on a main road, that has no seating. They sell-a coffee for people to drink while they're driving. That always
struck me as a bad idea.
[...] AFAIK, people with sickle cell anemia tend to be more resistant to malaria, which was widespread in parts of Italy for centuries. I think that's the real correlation.
Actually, I was thinking about thalassemia and even after reading the Wikipedia articles I don't really understand the difference between thalassemia and sickle cell.
On 14/08/2026 18:24, The True Melissa wrote:
Richard Tobin wrote in article <115nd6v$aeuq$1
@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>:
In article <MPG.44e8fa5a7b2190d98a30b@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
Doctors say that here, and they aren't selling anything.
It began as an in-office treatment. Later, people notice there
really wasn't that much to it.
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in this context?
To this BrE speaker it sounds as though someone wanders around an office building offering to wash out employee's ears.
Perhaps a variant on the Telephone Sanitisers of yesteryear?
P.S. The company I worked for finally decided to cut the monthly(?) telephone cleansing routine on cost grounds.
Since everyone had their own phone, rarely used by others, I couldn't see why--
they should be a particular vector for spreading disease.
(The sickly employee could manage that task without help.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper wrote in article <lbdu7lti1kbkc09kgakt2vp329082vlf8t@
4ax.com>:
[...] Doctors do not "sell" ear irrigation. Doctors treat patients who come to them with a problem, and they provide the treatment that they feel is the safest and most effective way of treating the problem.
Doctors absolutely do sell their services. So do dentists,
physical therapists, and all others in the health care field.
That's how they make a living.
On 14/08/26 23:25, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to dry; I donrCOt deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
When I had a DNA test, for genealogical reasons, I discovered that I
have a double expression of the Alzheimer's gene. (The bad combination.)
I went to see a geriatrician about it. He said "There's no point in
seeing me. You'll either get it or you wont. Wait until them."
It doesn't particularly bother me, except for one detail. In this
country, people with dementia cannot apply for voluntary assisted dying.
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
It began as an in-office treatment.
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in
this context?
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Peter Moylan:
But then I grew up inland and swam in a river. I was in my twenties
before I swam in the ocean.
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that you could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Peter Moylan:
But then I grew up inland and swam in a river. I was in my twenties
before I swam in the ocean.
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that you could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 08:02:55 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
What does "woke" mean?Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what
social 'scientists' say.
My take on it here: <https://methodius.blogspot.com/2023/03/woke-wokeness-and-wokeism.html>
But please write your definition before reading mine (or anyone else's
in this thread).
Sam Plusnet wrote:
Is "in-office treatment" a conventional phrase for use in
this context?
It is in the United States. It simply means that it's something
the doctor (or a nurse, or a tech) does in the office, as opposed
to something prescribed for home or a referral elsewhere.
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
Peter Moylan wrote in article <115ob66$2v9df$1@dont-email.me>:
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
Interesting!
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Peter Moylan:
But then I grew up inland and swam in a river. I was in my twenties
before I swam in the ocean.
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that you
could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No
spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.40 skrev Peter Moylan:
There's a coffee shop near me, on a main road, that has no seating.
They sell coffee for people to drink while they're driving. That
always struck me as a bad idea.
I routinely have a cup of coffee at my favourite resting area. I have a special mug of thick plastic (keeps it warm a bit) with a lid that is
screwed on. There's a tiny hole in the lid for air and a small lid for drinking. I have a special hole in my armlean (?)
in my car that fits
perfectly to the mug. It's quite safe. Here is a photo of a similar kind (steel):
https://images.nexusapp.co/assets/33/80/a8/127190719.jpg
Doctors absolutely do sell their services.
So do dentists,
physical therapists, and all others in the health care field.
That's how they make a living.
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
In article <115o8vv$2ud77$2@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
Refined olive oil was - perhaps still is - sold by pharmacists for
this purpose. Whether extra-virgin is advisable I don't know.
In article <115o8vv$2ud77$2@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
Refined olive oil was - perhaps still is - sold by pharmacists for
this purpose. Whether extra-virgin is advisable I don't know.
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters. The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'. And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution. >>
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a
shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. >>> Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop
sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on
steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
On 15/08/26 20:54, occam wrote:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish
contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a
shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit).-a When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
It could be worse. Imagine being an American and discovering through a
DNA test that Donald Trump was your father.
I am and was aware that Italians and Greeks (and other Mediterraneans) tend to
thalassaemia. Thalassaemia doesnrCOt give the severe pain crises of sickle cell,
above.
On 15/08/26 18:30, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that you
could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No
spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
We have one thing in common. Lots of drowned tourists here too.
Ar an c.igi. lb doag de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh Peter Moylan:
On 14/08/26 23:25, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East Asians to
dry; I donAt deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
oMicrosuctiono is the local term. SpecSavers (a chain of optometrists who also >offer hearing aids) have it. I have considered getting the machine since it is >endorsed in cases where youAre worried about perforation of the drum or in >small children.
The usual approach in a GP surgery here is this machine:
https://www.promed.ie/propulse-ear-irrigator-ear-irrigation-system-inc-10-qrx-tips.html
Passes in water at a controlled pressure level. Ideally with luke-warm water.
Uptodate.com suggests to me that the usual US approach, if microsuction is not >used, is with a syringe.
I tried this once in a Emergency Department (when it--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
was not too busy); didnAt work particularly well, but this may have been >because the patient didnAt have the ten days of olive oil ahead of time that I >usually recommend.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
ThatAs sensible.
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. >>> Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop
sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on
steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.40 skrev Peter Moylan:
There's a coffee shop near me, on a main road, that has no seating. They
sella coffee for people to drink while they're driving. That always
struck me as a bad idea.
I routinely have a cup of coffee at my favourite resting area. I have a >special mug of thick plastic (keeps it warm a bit) with a lid that is >screwed on. There's a tiny hole in the lid for air and a small lid for >drinking. I have a special hole in my armlean (?) in my car that fits >perfectly to the mug. It's quite safe. Here is a photo of a similar kind >(steel):
https://images.nexusapp.co/assets/33/80/a8/127190719.jpg
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that youThere are an astonishing number of drownings in France -- 925 between the 1st May
could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No
spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
and the 28th July. By no means all tourists. There are lots of stupid locals.
My car is well supplied with cup holders, but I would still stop the car before drinking a hot drink. No matter how safe the cup holder, you have
to lift the cup to drink, taking one hand off the steering wheel. And Murphy's Law guaranteees that it will be precisely at that time that you
hit a pothole.
I have yet to explicitly have the receptionistsrCO phone cleaned at my surgery.
Perhaps I should.
In article <MPG.44e91a8c49c4c8198a30d@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Doctors absolutely do sell their services.
In America.
I've never had a doctor suggest anything that would involve paying
them.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution. >>>
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a
shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any Turkish genes.
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations were Irish.
It could be worse. Imagine being an American and discovering through a
DNA test that Donald Trump was your father.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. >>>>> Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop
sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >>>> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any
persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France begins. Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence is much closer
to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel, it is the point at which one senses one is no longer in the south of France. Lyon, for example, is clearly of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west, the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse,
which feels northern even though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles.
I see what you mean, but hasn't historically a revolution always bin an effort to get rid of a ruler?
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
On 15/08/2026 15:59, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop >>>>> sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people >>>> from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >>>> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any >> persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France begins. Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence is much closer
to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel, it is the point at which one senses one is no longer in the south of France. Lyon, for example,
is clearly of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west, the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse,
which feels northern even though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles.
<smile> You asked the wrong person. Ask a Parisian where south of France starts. I bet the answer will be "Boulevard p|-riph|-rique (sud)"
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 12.46 skrev Richard Tobin:
In article <MPG.44e91a8c49c4c8198a30d@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa-a <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Doctors absolutely do sell their services.
In America.
I've never had a doctor suggest anything that would involve paying
them.
Their salary might depend on which services they provide free for you.
We have night service doctors which you can call around the clock. Some
of them spend less tham two minutes at each patient and have an annual income of several millions (kroner) because they get a fixed rate for standard treatments. A large portion of their 'treatments' consists of: "Take a pain killer and consult you GP in the morning".
On 15/08/2026 15:59, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. >>>>>> Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop >>>>>> sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people >>>>> from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >>>>> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any >>> persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if >> not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France begins. >> Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence is much closer
to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel, it is the point at >> which one senses one is no longer in the south of France. Lyon, for example, >> is clearly of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west, >> the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse,
which feels northern even though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles.
<smile> You asked the wrong person. Ask a Parisian where south of France starts. I bet the answer will be "Boulevard p|-riph|-rique (sud)"
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological. Whites
develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell >anaemia, whites donrCOt.
In article <27262.7040.918455.651810@parhasard.net>,
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
It's a social construct, based on various features some of which are
genetic. One might suspect that some of them are the genetic features
of the person making the judgment.
While on holiday in Portugal (years ago) I saw the slogan "white rule" >painted in English on a wall. I wondered who was demanding to rule
whom.
Le 15/08/2026 |a 16:46, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing
so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic] 'a territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would 'pretty soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global trade, through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil supplies
typically pass rCo a US territory" - <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait- hormuz-us-territory>
Watch out, Greenland!
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution. >>>
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a
shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any Turkish genes.
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations were Irish.
On 15/08/26 19:31, The True Melissa wrote:And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Peter Moylan wrote in article <115ob66$2v9df$1@dont-email.me>:
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
Interesting!
Those words were written by someone in England, I believe, but the
situation in Australia is similar: a government that is nominally
left-wing, but which has drifted away from its socialist principles.
For those who don't know, the actual first lines of "The Red Flag" are
The people's flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead.
On 14/08/2026 13:19, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 14/08/26 06:40, J. J. Lodder wrote:
No, but you can test for the percentage of 'european' or 'african'
DNA, or even for the percentage of 'neanderthaler'.
I test out as 3% neanderthal, which is a bit on the high side. However,
it makes sense that having a predominantly Western European ancestry
should correlate with a high neanderthal component; they occupied the
same lands.
Also well known is that there was cross-breeding between Neanderthals
and Homo Sapiens 40000 - 50000 years ago. Normally I'd say "let's forget
it ever happened", but apparently genes are not so good at forgetting.
An AI search says: "Modern non-African humans carry about 1-2%
Neanderthal DNA in their genomes." So, your 3% is on the high side.
There is a good reason why I have never tested my DNA. Privacy issues--
aside, I'd hate to be irked by a doubtful statistic for the rest of my
life, knowing that I paid for the self-inflicted irritation.
On 15/08/2026 16:05, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 12.46 skrev Richard Tobin:One of my wife's uncles said that to a patent on the phone in the early
In article <MPG.44e91a8c49c4c8198a30d@news.eternal-september.org>,
The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Doctors absolutely do sell their services.
In America.
I've never had a doctor suggest anything that would involve paying
them.
Their salary might depend on which services they provide free for you.
We have night service doctors which you can call around the clock.
Some of them spend less tham two minutes at each patient and have an
annual income of several millions (kroner) because they get a fixed
rate for standard treatments. A large portion of their 'treatments'
consists of: "Take a pain killer and consult you GP in the morning".
hours of the morning. The patient made a formal complaint that he
needed to go to A&E because the doctor wouldn't make a house call. He
was asked what treatment he was given: "Given a pain killer and told to
see his GP in the morning.".
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling anyOr people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if >not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
On 14/08/26 23:25, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
I misrepresented this slightly. Whites tend to wet ear wax, East
Asians to dry; I don't deal with enough East Asians to know whether
this means the ear irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed
there.
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
Perhaps a variant on the Telephone Sanitisers of yesteryear?
P.S. The company I worked for finally decided to cut the monthly(?) telephone cleansing routine on cost grounds.
Since everyone had their own phone, rarely used by others, I couldn't
see why they should be a particular vector for spreading disease.
(The sickly employee could manage that task without help.)
On 15/08/2026 07:38, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 08:02:55 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
What does "woke" mean?Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what
social 'scientists' say.
My take on it here:
<https://methodius.blogspot.com/2023/03/woke-wokeness-and-wokeism.html>
But please write your definition before reading mine (or anyone else's
in this thread).
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets >'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
On 15/08/2026 16:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry. >>>> It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he >>>> had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a >>> shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any
Turkish genes.
Show your workings, Sir. I bet have less Turkish genes that bloke Boris Johnson <spit!>
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations were Irish.
The True Melissa explained on 8/14/2026 :
Tony Cooper wrote in article <lbdu7lti1kbkc09kgakt2vp329082vlf8t@
4ax.com>:
A stupid plan that works isn't stupid.
If something almost everyone does frequently were genuinely
dangerous, we wouldn't need text on the box to tell us about it.
"Why do I need a bicycle helmet? I've been riding for years without a problem!"
and
"Hold my beer!"
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'.
It's meant to hurt.
Bertel Lund Hansen speculated:
Den 14.08.2026 kl. 16.00 skrev The True Melissa:
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Q.tips are fine,
As long as everything you put in comes out. There are yewtewbs of 20 year-old cotton being removed from ears.
And even when the Qtip comes out intact, it can ram the wax in deeper.
The nurse had to use several pots of warm water in my case, and
before that was successful my bad ear was working better than my good
ear.
On 15/08/2026 16:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry. >>>> It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he >>>> had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a >>> shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any
Turkish genes.
Show your workings, Sir. I bet have less Turkish genes that bloke Boris Johnson <spit!>
On 14/08/2026 17:07, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 11:12:18 -0400, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Tony Cooper wrote in article <ahau7ll43s3b8q8rql4ahueibv23qt1epv@
4ax.com>:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 10:00:59 -0400, The True Melissa
<thetruemelissa@gmail.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[quoted text muted]
I don?t deal with enough East Asians to know whether this means the ear >>>>> irrigation to remove wax is routinely needed there.
White people don't need ear irrigation, either. Q-tips work fine,
and for that matter so will your fingernail.
Most doctors strongly suggest not using Q-Tips.
Yes, they do, but they're also the people selling ear irrigation.
If you want to advance an argument, it's more effective if you stick
to realism.
Doctors do not "sell" ear irrigation. Doctors treat patients who come
to them with a problem, and they provide the treatment that they feel
is the safest and most effective way of treating the problem.
The people who make OTC ear irrigation products do "sell" it by
designing packaging information that suggests that it is the better treatment. So do the makers of alternative products. The charge for
a doctor visit would be the same if he/she used a Q-Tip or suction/irrigation.
In fact, the makers of the Q-Tips brand state this on the package:
"WARNING DO NOT INSERT SWAB INTO EAR CANAL. ENTERING THE EAR CANAL
CAN CAUSE INJURY"
Most people couldn't find the Ear Canal on a map.
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry.
It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters. The results showed that he
had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'. And yes, it has changed his opinion of his Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and--
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
--
Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
On 15/08/2026 07:38, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 08:02:55 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
What does "woke" mean?Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what
social 'scientists' say.
My take on it here: <https://methodius.blogspot.com/2023/03/woke-wokeness-and-wokeism.html>
But please write your definition before reading mine (or anyone else's
in this thread).
'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets 'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
Le 15/08/2026 |a 16:46, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing
so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic] 'a territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would 'pretty soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global trade, through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil supplies
typically pass rCo a US territory" - <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait-hormuz-us-territory>
Watch out, Greenland!
I contest that statement. To me, "sell their service" means taking
out advertising or using other avenues to directly attract patients.
That simply isn't done in the US.
Because there is no universal health care system in the US, what
usually determines which doctor/doctors a person uses is the patient's >insurance provider. A patient wants to add a doctor that accepts the >insurance the patient has.
If the need is something the primary care doctor feels a specialist
should handle, either the primary care doctor will provide a referral
or the insurance company will provide a list of doctors in their
network.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. My cardiologist recommends that I
have a stress test every few years. That is done at her office and
there is a charge for it. My insurance covers part of the charge, but
not all of it.
Dentists sometimes do "sell their services", but in a restained way.
They will place an advertisement saying they are now accepting new
patients, now offer some service they didn't offer before, or
announcing a new associate in the practice.
There are a lot of advertisements now for places that do dental
implants. Permanent implants rather than removable dentures.
Dentists must have some self-imposed rule about those ads. The
dentist is not featured in the ad; just the procedure.
frames and lenses. An optometrist may be on staff to provide exams,
but they are not advertising his/her services.
By the way, I never needed a doctor in the UK, but my chances to see a
GP in Germany (not_my_ GP where I live, I mean any GP in the whole
country) on Sundays and Saturdays are exactly zero, unless I happen to
know their private phone number and he or she is a_very_ good friend.
@ Tony: to me, "sell their service", when talking about a doctor, means
that they also serve private patients. The only doctors who don't do
that in Germany are those who work in a hospital, retirement home etc.
and get a fixed monthly income from their employer.
Le 15/08/2026 a 12:06, occam a ocrit :
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Isn't it the Watford Gap, not Watford town?
"In popular culture, the Watford Gap is often considered to be a
dividing line that separates the north and the south of England. The
phrase 'north of the Watford gap' may be shortened to 'north of
Watford', inviting confusion with the larger town of Watford further
south in Hertfordshire [...]" - <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_Gap_services>
As to the label hurting, it depends on which side you are. Southerners
have been known to despise Northerners, but also vice versa.
If it's not in the North and not in the South, then isn't it in the Midlands?
@ Tony: to me, "sell their service", when talking about a doctor, means
that they also serve private patients. The only doctors who don't do
that in Germany are those who work in a hospital, retirement home etc.
and get a fixed monthly income from their employer.
On Thu, 13 Aug 2026 19:55:02 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <27262.7040.918455.651810@parhasard.net>,
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
It's a social construct, based on various features some of which are >genetic. One might suspect that some of them are the genetic features
of the person making the judgment.
While on holiday in Portugal (years ago) I saw the slogan "white rule" >painted in English on a wall. I wondered who was demanding to rule
whom.
Someone asked a question on the Q&A web site Quora: what is the
difference between a black man and a white man?
My answer was "albedo".
That's it.
Any questions?
See here:
https://khanya.wordpress.com/2018/12/03/racism-and-prejudice/
[...] By the way, I never needed a doctor in the UK, but my chances to see a GP in Germany (not _my_ GP where I live, I mean any GP in the whole country) on Sundays and Saturdays are exactly zero, unless I happen to know their private phone number and he or she is a _very_ good friend.
@ Tony: to me, "sell their service", when talking about a doctor, means
that they also serve private patients. The only doctors who don't do
that in Germany are those who work in a hospital, retirement home etc.
and get a fixed monthly income from their employer.
[...] There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and of Armenian descent.
But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
On 15/08/2026 15:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
[...] On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations were Irish.
but that might include survivors of the Spanish Armada or other shipwrecked Europeans
On 15/08/2026 11:07, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
I am and was aware that Italians and Greeks (and other Mediterraneans) tend to thalassaemia. Thalassaemia doesnrCOt give the severe pain crises of
sickle cell, above.
I've heard it mentioned in the same phrase, as "sick cell thalassimia". Common in Cyprus too. It was thought to be an import via sailors (hence
the sea, 'thalassa').
This is not a subject where I'd know the "usual" method, but an
otologist in this area uses water irrigation and suction with a system similar to what every dentist has in the office: a line that provides warmish water and a line that provides suction.
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
[...] By the way, I never needed a doctor in the UK, but my chances to see a
GP in Germany (not _my_ GP where I live, I mean any GP in the whole country)
on Sundays and Saturdays are exactly zero, unless I happen to know their private phone number and he or she is a _very_ good friend.
My understanding had been that all -+niedergelassene-2 doctors in Germany who take public insurance have to participate in an out of hours rota, including pathologists and radiologist.
On Thu, 13 Aug 2026 20:31:12 +0100, Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
It is social, certainly, but itrCOs inaccurate to say itrCOs not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians donrCOt. Blacks and Arabs develop >sickle-cell anaemia, whites donrCOt.
Do all blacks and Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, including those
whose ancestors lived in areas where malaria was not endemic?
Aidan Kehoe hat am 15.08.2026 um 22:18 geschrieben:
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
[...] By the way, I never needed a doctor in the UK, but my chances to see a GP in Germany (not _my_ GP where I live, I mean any GP in the whole country) on Sundays and Saturdays are exactly zero, unless I happen to know their private phone number and he or she is a _very_ good friend.
My understanding had been that all -+niedergelassene-2 doctors in Germany who take public insurance have to participate in an out of hours rota, including pathologists and radiologist.
Your source, please? That's true for pharmacies in Germany, but for GP?
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 12.36 skrev Peter Moylan:
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
Interesting!
Those words were written by someone in England, I believe, but the
situation in Australia is similar: a government that is nominally
left-wing, but which has drifted away from its socialist principles.
It's the same in Denmark.
But perhaps you could say that the MAGA crowd are also revolutionaries,
because they overthrew the old power structure in order to create a
dictatorship. The difference is that King Trump rules for the benefit
of the maga-rich.
I see what you mean, but hasn't historically a revolution always bin an effort to get rid of a ruler?
On 15/08/2026 07:38, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Fri, 14 Aug 2026 08:02:55 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
What does "woke" mean?Whiteness is not about the color of one's skin, it is about being
considered the social default, unmarked, kind of person.
That is the wokest definition I have heard, given a physical reality
that is the colour (pigment content) of skin. "Being considered the
social default" is the washy-liberal way of saying "let the people
decide". Wrong. There is real biology behind skin pigment, despite what
social 'scientists' say.
My take on it here:
<https://methodius.blogspot.com/2023/03/woke-wokeness-and-wokeism.html>
But please write your definition before reading mine (or anyone else's
in this thread).
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets 'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
On Thu, 13 Aug 2026 19:55:02 -0000 (UTC), richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
(Richard Tobin) wrote:
In article <27262.7040.918455.651810@parhasard.net>,
Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> wrote:
There is no genetic test for whiteness; it's social, not biological.
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
It's a social construct, based on various features some of which are
genetic. One might suspect that some of them are the genetic features
of the person making the judgment.
While on holiday in Portugal (years ago) I saw the slogan "white rule"
painted in English on a wall. I wondered who was demanding to rule
whom.
Someone asked a question on the Q&A web site Quora: what is the
difference between a black man and a white man?
My answer was "albedo".
That's it.
Any questions?
In article <i7r08lt6jdrnc682ufjbcbo359ijkl2afo@4ax.com>,
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
I contest that statement. To me, "sell their service" means taking
out advertising or using other avenues to directly attract patients.
That simply isn't done in the US.
As always, your mileage may vary. Cosmetic surgeons advertise quite a
lot, as do some other specialists. So too do hospitals, to make sure
that everyone in the area knows that this hospital has "the orthopedic >experts" and that hospital is "ranked #1 in $STATE for cardiovascular
care".
Because there is no universal health care system in the US, what
usually determines which doctor/doctors a person uses is the patient's >>insurance provider. A patient wants to add a doctor that accepts the >>insurance the patient has.
If the need is something the primary care doctor feels a specialist
should handle, either the primary care doctor will provide a referral
or the insurance company will provide a list of doctors in their
network.
It's a bit more complicated than that, because there are many
different types of health plans, and most people between the ages of
22 and 65 are at the mercy of their employer for both the types of
available plans and the provider networks available. (I had to change >primary care physicians about 15 years ago because my employer dropped
the only insurance plan he was in-network for.) My current plan, a
PPO, allows me to see any provider, but only some providers will
directly bill the plan, and it's only those providers who have agreed
to charge no more than the standard fee.
This is different from my old plan where I could only get care from--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
providers in a particular network and had to get a referral for any
specialty care. Referrals can still be useful, especially if the
specialist is in a different medical system and doesn't have access to
one's records, but there's no point in me wasting my primary care
doctor's time when it's clear that I need to see the orthopedist
anyway -- I can just schedule an appointment directly.
Historically, many people had "indemnity" plans, where the plan would
pay for 80% of any "medically necessary" service from any provider,
but these have almost entirely gone by the wayside now as they were
just too expensive and employers and governments (for the public
systems) both demanded cost control.
Well, that's not entirely accurate. My cardiologist recommends that I
have a stress test every few years. That is done at her office and
there is a charge for it. My insurance covers part of the charge, but
not all of it.
When I did a stress test (both times), my primary-care provider wrote
an order for me at a local hospital where they had privileges. But I
don't have a cardiologist, so maybe a specialist practice would be
able to do those things in house. Certainly my gastroenterologist has
a financial interest in the facility where he does colonoscopies.
There are legal rules about this, as well as insurer contracts, but
I'm not sure what the limits are.
Dentists sometimes do "sell their services", but in a restained way.
They will place an advertisement saying they are now accepting new >>patients, now offer some service they didn't offer before, or
announcing a new associate in the practice.
Dentists advertise sedation, implants, and cosmetic dentistry all the
time. (Every dentist I've had has done lots of cosmetic dentistry,
although they never tried to pressure me into it. Implants used to be >something requiring multiple visits to different specialists and a
long wait for lab work, but can now be done in a single appointment by
a dental office equipped with a subtractive manufacturing device.)
Large national practice groups like Aspen Dental advertise for new
patients all the time. Many dentists advertise financing options,
because even with insurance, a root canal and crown can still cost
upward of $2000.
It's understandable, because lots of people don't see their dentists
nearly enough, due to fear, pain, or expense, so there's a large
underserved market that needs to be convinced to get their teeth
checked. It's unfortunate that dentists have been able to lobby
themselves into a carve-out from health insurance, so the landscape of >insurers and plans is completely separate, and someone might have a
great medical plan and lousy dental coverage.
There are a lot of advertisements now for places that do dental
implants. Permanent implants rather than removable dentures.
Dentists must have some self-imposed rule about those ads. The
dentist is not featured in the ad; just the procedure.
I think it's just that the ads are made by the companies selling the >equipment and the certifications, and then only lightly customized for
a specific dental office.
frames and lenses. An optometrist may be on staff to provide exams,
but they are not advertising his/her services.
Some states have strict laws prohibiting dispensing opticians from
employing optometrists or vice versa. Some states prohibit physicians
from being employed by a limited liability corporation (a similar
prohibition often applies to other "learned professions" such as
lawyers and accountants), which is why specialized business structures
like the Professional Corporation (PC) and Limited Liability
Partnership (LLP) were created.
-GAWollman
Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> posted:
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Peter Moylan:There are an astonishing number of drownings in France -- 925 between the 1st May
But then I grew up inland and swam in a river. I was in my twenties
before I swam in the ocean.
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in Denmark that you
could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it for pleasure. No
spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50 km, so all Danes are
used to the sea. Most of the drowning accidents happen to tourists.
and the 28th July. By no means all tourists. There are lots of stupid locals.
I've never had a doctor suggest anything that would involve payingWell, that's not entirely accurate. My cardiologist recommends that I
them.
have a stress test every few years. That is done at her office and
there is a charge for it. My insurance covers part of the charge, but
not all of it.
Le 14/08/2026 |a 21:24, Tony Cooper a |-crit :
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
I have never figured out how to shorten URLs.-a I have "Tiny URL", but
people object to that being used.
One can indicate any Amazon product with a URL of the form Sam has given above. The last bit is the ASIN (Amazon Standard Identification Number), which is shown on the product page under 'Product details' and is always present somewhere in Amazon URLs (though it may be lost in a wealth of tracking information).
Tiens ! One can use a smartphone for wax removal:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0GLGSR69D/>
Whatever will they think of next?
On 15/08/2026 01:39, Peter Moylan wrote:
There's a wax removal clinic in my area that uses a new system. Instead
of washing the wax out, they pick it out with ... well, I don't know
what, but it resembles a needle.
More expensive than the old system, so I put olive oil in my ears now
and then to keep the wax levels down.
My grandmother (RIP) would be proud of you. Once, when my doctor
proposed olive oil for my ear ache, I said "That's straight out of my grandma's book". "Wise woman, your gran" was his response.
CAVEAT: In Mediterranean countries, olive oil is a remedy for a lot of things.
My wife's mother used to rub olive oil on my first-born son. She was
adamant that it was better than Johnson & Johnson baby oil. So my son
smelled of salad-dressing whenever I changed his nappy.
Le 15/08/2026 |a 16:46, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing
so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic] 'a territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would 'pretty soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global trade, through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil supplies
typically pass rCo a US territory" - <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait- hormuz-us-territory>
Watch out, Greenland!
Le 15/08/2026 |a 12:06, occam a |-crit :
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any
persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Isn't it the Watford Gap, not Watford town?
"In popular culture, the Watford Gap is often considered to be a
dividing line that separates the north and the south of England. The
phrase 'north of the Watford gap' may be shortened to 'north of
Watford', inviting confusion with the larger town of Watford further
south in Hertfordshire [...]" - <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_Gap_services>
As to the label hurting, it depends on which side you are. Southerners
have been known to despise Northerners, but also vice versa.
If it's not in the North and not in the South, then isn't it in the Midlands?
On 15/08/2026 15:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
but that might include survivors of the Spanish Armada or other
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry. >>>>> It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he >>>>> had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by
calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish
contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and
then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a >>>> shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit).-a When you think you are one thing, and it >>> turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and
of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't
have any
Turkish genes.
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my
mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known
ancestors for
three or four generations were Irish.
shipwrecked Europeans
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 20:36:28 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 15/08/26 19:31, The True Melissa wrote:And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold
Peter Moylan wrote in article <115ob66$2v9df$1@dont-email.me>:
The people's flag is palest pink
It's not as red as you may think
White-collar workers stand and cheer
The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit
So nobody will notice it
And just to show that we're sincere
We'll sing the Red Flag once a year.
Interesting!
Those words were written by someone in England, I believe, but the
situation in Australia is similar: a government that is nominally
left-wing, but which has drifted away from its socialist principles.
For those who don't know, the actual first lines of "The Red Flag" are
The people's flag is deepest red
It shrouded oft our martyred dead.
Their hearts'-blood dyed its every fold
So raise the scarlet standard high
Within its shade we'll live or die
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
And the Italian version:
The people on the march the road are treading
That leads to freedom (x2)
The hour of struggle's here, our courage needing
Our banner leading to victory.
Raise then the scarlet flag triumphantly (x3)
It leads to peace and progress and our liberty.
(Silvano can correct me, but I think it was called "Bandiera Rossa").
I was somewhat bemused (only because it was my first encounter) to
see a toilet block (in OZ) with an entrance marked "ambulatory" or
some such - it took a while for me to work out it was to avoid
labelling the other one as "wheelchair friendly" - or worse -
"disabled",
On 15/08/2026 06:59, Hibou wrote:
Le 14/08/2026 |a 21:24, Tony Cooper a |-crit :An arms race between 'ear cameras'.
Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 14/08/2026 15:52, Tony Cooper wrote:
I now use these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C46K13I
I snipped the rest of the URL because it isn't needed.
I have never figured out how to shorten URLs.-a I have "Tiny URL", but
people object to that being used.
One can indicate any Amazon product with a URL of the form Sam has
given above. The last bit is the ASIN (Amazon Standard Identification
Number), which is shown on the product page under 'Product details'
and is always present somewhere in Amazon URLs (though it may be lost
in a wealth of tracking information).
Tiens ! One can use a smartphone for wax removal:
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0GLGSR69D/>
Whatever will they think of next?
How many pixels does your ear camera have?
Someone asked a question on the Q&A web site Quora: what is the
difference between a black man and a white man?
My answer was "albedo".
Den 15.08.2026 kl. 11.47 skrev athel.cb@gmail.com:
Theoretically there is one perhaps two small rivers in DenmarkThere are an astonishing number of drownings in France -- 925
that you could swim in but I don't think that anyone has done it
for pleasure. No spot in Denmark is further from the sea than 50
km, so all Danes are used to the sea. Most of the drowning
accidents happen to tourists.
between the 1st May and the 28th July. By no means all tourists.
There are lots of stupid locals.
I'm not surprised. You can't live in Denmark without learning to swim
and be aware of dangerous water. In countries where there's a long
way to the sea, people will have less experience with it.
On 15/08/2026 16:25, occam wrote:
On 15/08/2026 15:59, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of
France begins. Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even
though Valence is much closer to the Mediterranean than it is to
the English Channel, it is the point at which one senses one is
no longer in the south of France. Lyon, for example, is clearly
of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west,
the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly
southern), and Toulouse, which feels northern even though it's
at the same latitude as Marseilles.
<smile> You asked the wrong person. Ask a Parisian where south of
France starts. I bet the answer will be "Boulevard p|-riph|-rique
(sud)"
"A Valence, le Midi commence." I learned that in my school days (70
years ago)
On 15/08/2026 16:54, Hibou wrote:
As to the label hurting, it depends on which side you are.What _can_ hurt is when someone who has always thought of themselves
Southerners have been known to despise Northerners, but also vice
versa.
If it's not in the North and not in the South, then isn't it in the
Midlands?
as "a Northerner", is called "a Southerner" - by people who live
further north.
It's a complicated business.
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations.
On my mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known
ancestors for three or four generations were Irish.
On 15/08/2026 16:15, Charles Hope wrote:
On 15/08/2026 15:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for fivebut that might include survivors of the Spanish Armada or other
generations. On my mother's side the records are much more
sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations
were Irish.
shipwrecked Europeans
Families living in or near a sea port are more likely to pick up some
DNA from foreign parts.
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 10:12:39 +1000 Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:Mebe a smidge of celt? or do you see them as the same as picts? Ah
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his
ancestry. It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters. The results
showed that he had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends
tease him now by calling him 'Paddy'. And yes, it has changed
his opinion of his Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish
contribution.
they (picts) probably were https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts
On 15/08/2026 16:54, Hibou wrote:
Le 15/08/2026 |a 16:46, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :I could declare it to be my garden ornament - a declaration which is
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing
so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic]
'a territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would
'pretty soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global
trade, through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil
supplies typically pass rCo a US territory" -
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait-
hormuz-us-territory>
Watch out, Greenland!
just as effective as his.
On 16/08/26 08:14, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/08/2026 16:54, Hibou wrote:
As to the label hurting, it depends on which side you are.What _can_ hurt is when someone who has always thought of themselves
Southerners have been known to despise Northerners, but also vice
versa.
If it's not in the North and not in the South, then isn't it in the
-aMidlands?
as "a Northerner", is called "a Southerner" - by people who live
further north.
It's a complicated business.
I once accompanied my wife to a conference in Glasgow. At the conference dinner there was a pipes-and-drums band. At some stage the band leader
called out "Is there anyone here from the south?" My wife called out "Newcastle", so they invited her up to dance with them.
I don't think they realised that it wasn't the Newcastle they were
thinking of.
On 16/08/26 08:26, Sam Plusnet wrote:
On 15/08/2026 16:15, Charles Hope wrote:
On 15/08/2026 15:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for fivebut that might include survivors of the Spanish Armada or other
generations. On my mother's side the records are much more
sparse, but all known ancestors for three or four generations
were Irish.
shipwrecked Europeans
Families living in or near a sea port are more likely to pick up some
-aDNA from foreign parts.
Even in modern times. We recently discovered that my wife's half-brother
has a Swedish father. He was a sailor, and it seems likely that he was
only in Australia for a very brief time.
On 15/08/2026 18:53, Steve Hayes wrote:
Someone asked a question on the Q&A web site Quora: what is the
difference between a black man and a white man?
My answer was "albedo".
That's it.
Any questions?
Yes. Did anyone respond and ask why you were bringing sex drive into
the discussion?
On 15/08/2026 17:54, Hibou wrote:
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic] 'a
territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would 'pretty
soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global trade,
through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil supplies
typically pass rCo a US territory" -
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait-
hormuz-us-territory>
I think it should also be renamed 'Straight of America". That should
seal it.
occam hat am 15.08.2026 um 13:06 geschrieben:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any
persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'.
No, it's 100 times worse, I think. But of course I'm wrong, if there is
a widespread movement among Londoners to secede from England north of >Wattord.
Grave robbing has demonstrated that ancient Egyptians had no admixture from >sub-Saharan Africans, and modern genetic testing demonstrates that most Muslim >Arabs have some admixture from sub-Saharan Africa. Given the eagerness of Muslim
Arabs to enslave sub-Saharan Africans, this is unshocking.
I was somewhat bemused (only because it was my first encounter) to
see a toilet block (in OZ) with an entrance marked "ambulatory" or
some such - it took a while for me to work out it was to avoid
labelling the other one as "wheelchair friendly" - or worse -
"disabled",
The ones with wheelchair access are always labelled "disabled",
I'm not surprised. You can't live in Denmark without learning to swim
-aand be aware of dangerous water. In countries where there's a long
way to the sea, people will have less experience with it.
Here we're repeatedly told "Swim between the flags". The flags indicate
that there's a life saver on duty. (And there are other kinds of flags meaning things like "beach closed".) It seems that many tourists are not aware of the meaning of the flags, and they prefer to swim in less
crowded parts of the beach. In addition Australia has many unpatrolled beaches, which are safe only if you have a good eye for where the
dangerous currents are.
We get a few drownings in inland waters, too, including where I used to
swim as a child.
(Silvano can correct me, but I think it was called "Bandiera Rossa").
Vogliam le fabbriche, vogliam la terra
E non pi* guerra, e non pi* guerra
Vogliam le fabbriche, vogliam la terra
Bandiera rossa trionfera.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 15:59, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop >>>>>>> sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people >>>>>> from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >>>>>> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any >>>> persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if >>> not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France begins. >>> Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence is much closer
to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel, it is the point at >>> which one senses one is no longer in the south of France. Lyon, for example,
is clearly of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west, >>> the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse,
which feels northern even though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles. >>>
<smile> You asked the wrong person. Ask a Parisian where south of France
starts. I bet the answer will be "Boulevard p|-riph|-rique (sud)"
Twenty years or so ago someone we used to see at lunch said that she was going to a place in France more or less at the latitude of Marseilles. Toulouse?
I asked. No. Biarritz? No. It turned out to be St Pierre et Miquelon, definitely
in France (but don't tell the orange loon that), which is indeed just a little
further north than here but no one in their right mind would call it southern.
Most French people would never think of going there, let alone doing so. Anyway,
it means that Greenland is closer to France than it is to the USA.
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 15.08.2026 um 22:18 geschrieben:
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh Silvano:
[...] By the way, I never needed a doctor in the UK, but my chances to
see a GP in Germany (not _my_ GP where I live, I mean any GP in the whole country) on Sundays and Saturdays are exactly zero, unless I happen to know their private phone number and he or she is a _very_ good friend.
My understanding had been that all -+niedergelassene-2 doctors in Germany
who take public insurance have to participate in an out of hours rota, including pathologists and radiologist.
Your source, please? That's true for pharmacies in Germany, but for GP?
I gave a link, to the Deutsches |arzteblatt, and cited from it. The link once more:
https://www.aerzteblatt.de/archiv/dienstvertrag-behandlungspflicht-des-arztes-46978eb6-d226-4453-9302-165bd1bbeca4
You are not by any means guaranteed to see a GP but it is possible (and if the
relative proportions of GPs to consultants here holds in Germany, probable). Have you ever attempted this?
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 16:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry. >>>>>> It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he >>>>>> had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by >>>>>> calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and >>>>> then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a >>>>> shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it >>>> turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and >>>> of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any
Turkish genes.
Show your workings, Sir. I bet have less Turkish genes that bloke Boris
Johnson <spit!>
You have forgotten the one-drop rule beloved of American racists: one Turkish ancestor out of 32 and you're Turkish! (Don't worry, I'm being tiresome).
How common is it for Armenian people to have fa
On my father's side I'm unambiguously English for five generations. On my >>> mother's side the records are much more sparse, but all known ancestors for >>> three or four generations were Irish.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:Balladur.
On 15/08/2026 16:16, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 15/08/2026 02:12, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 15/08/26 07:24, occam wrote:
Sam, a proudly Scottish friend of mine recently tested his ancestry. >>>>>> It was a gift 'kit' from his daughters.-a The results showed that he >>>>>> had 70% Irish ancestry. His daughters and friends tease him now by >>>>>> calling him 'Paddy'.-a And yes, it has changed his opinion of his
Scottish-ness .
It shouldn't. The Scots originally reached Scotland from Ireland.
They're the same people, apart from some English and Pictish contribution.
My own ancestry shows up as 56% Irish, about a quarter Scottish, and >>>>> then bits and pieces from places like Normandy and Belgium. I did get a >>>>> shock, though, to discover that I had an English ancestor.
There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it >>>> turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and >>>> of Armenian descent. But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Be prepared to spit, then. It would be quite surprising if you don't have any
Turkish genes.
Show your workings, Sir. I bet have less Turkish genes that bloke Boris
Johnson <spit!>
You have forgotten the one-drop rule beloved of American racists: one Turkish ancestor out of 32 and you're Turkish! (Don't worry, I'm being tiresome).
How common is it for Armenian people to have family names that are not obviously
Armenian? The ones I have known in Marseilles have been called Khanoyan, Mesropian, Hatchikian etc., all obviously Armenian. (I realize, of course, that "Occam" is not your real name, so it doesn't count.) However, I was thinking
of |edouard Balladur. I had always thought that it was probably a shortened form of Balladurian, but I can't find any evidence of that in the English, French or Armenian Wikipedia articles: all of them give his family as
The Armenian article is disappointing: it seems to be just a translation of the
French. (I know this will come as surprise, but I can't read Armenian; however,
Google Translate can.)
Ar an c||igi|| l|i d|-ag de m|! L||nasa, scr|!obh occam:
[...] There you go (that last bit). When you think you are one thing, and it
turns out you are tainted by another. My parents are both Armenian, and of Armenian descent.
Huh, you come across as a Briton -2-ade souche-a-+. Do you have any Armenian?
But who knows what else lurks in those Middle
Eastern genes? (I'd have to spit at my reflection in the mirror if I
knew there were <spit!> Turkish genes in me.)
Helpful specifically, in knowing the risk of thalassaemia in offspring (which might be an issue if parents are Armenian and Greek.) But given werCOre on Usenet
I suspect any children you have had are grown.
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 12:18:07 +0200
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets
'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
I was somewhat bemused (only because it was my first encounter) to see a toilet block (in OZ) with an entrance marked "ambulatory" or some such -
it took a while for me to work out it was to avoid labelling the other one
as "wheelchair friendly" - or worse - "disabled",
[...] In fact my mother
warned us about almost anything that humans might do.
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological.
Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop
sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France begins. Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence is much--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
closer to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel, it is the point at which one senses one is no longer in the south of France. Lyon,
for example, is clearly of the north and feels nothing like the south. Travelling west, the north begins somewhere between Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse, which feels northern even though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles.
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not biological. >>> Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and Arabs develop
sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people
from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on
steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
On 15/08/2026 16:25, occam wrote:
On 15/08/2026 15:59, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:Or people who say that "Wogs begin at Calais".
Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
Aidan Kehoe hat am 13.08.2026 um 21:31 geschrieben:
It is social, certainly, but it's inaccurate to say it's not
biological. Whites develop ear wax, East Asians don't. Blacks and >>>>>> Arabs develop sickle-cell anaemia, whites don't.
Sorry, but that's bullshit on steroids, unless you claim that people >>>>> from Southern Italy are Blacks or Arabs. If you do, that's (bullshit on >>>>> steroids) square.
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any >>> persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'. It's meant to hurt.
Seriously, though, where does the north begin if you start from London, if >> not at Watford? Where does it start to feel northern?
When we were first here we asked someone where the north of France
begins. Valence she, a native of Marseilles, said. Even though Valence
is much closer to the Mediterranean than it is to the English Channel,
it is the point at which one senses one is no longer in the south of
France. Lyon, for example, is clearly of the north and feels nothing
like the south. Travelling west, the north begins somewhere between
Carcassonne (clearly southern), and Toulouse, which feels northern even
though it's at the same latitude as Marseilles.
<smile> You asked the wrong person. Ask a Parisian where south of France starts. I bet the answer will be "Boulevard poriphorique (sud)"
"A Valence, le Midi commence." I learned that in my school days (70
years ago)
Bandiera rossa trionfer|a.
Hmm. Point of usage: is a 'motherfucker' just a father?
On 15/08/2026 21:20, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 12:18:07 +0200
occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
<snip>
'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets
'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
I was somewhat bemused (only because it was my first encounter) to see a toilet block (in OZ) with an entrance marked "ambulatory" or some such -
it took a while for me to work out it was to avoid labelling the other one as "wheelchair friendly" - or worse - "disabled",
Doesn't 'ambulatory' allow for anyone to amble in? I would.
Den 16.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Silvano:
Bandiera rossa trionfer|a.
What does the accent mean for the pronunciation?
On 15/08/2026 11:18, occam wrote:
'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present. Calling midgets
'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
Words can surprise you.
RE: "people of restricted growth" (aka "Porg")
This term was first introduced back in the 1970s - so "in vogue at
present" is slightly misleading.
If you mean the Notfalldienst (Bereitschaftsdienst) and if it is
something different from the A&E in German hospitals (several names used there: Notaufnahme, Rettungsstelle, Notfallaufnahme, Notfallambulanz, Notfallstation, Nothilfe, Notfallzentrum, Erste-Hilfe-Station), I have
no idea how to reach it.
If the article means that every doctor has to work some time in an A&E,
I don't know the details. It's quite possible that I was visited also by
a GP when I had to go to an A&E, but I didn't notice. You tell at the entrance why you're there, then you're sent to a waiting room and wait
until they find out who is the most appropriate doctor for your case and when they're available.
Ar an so. lb doag de m0 L.nasa, scr0obh Silvano:
If you mean the Notfalldienst (Bereitschaftsdienst) and if it is
something different from the A&E in German hospitals (several names used there: Notaufnahme, Rettungsstelle, Notfallaufnahme, Notfallambulanz, Notfallstation, Nothilfe, Notfallzentrum, Erste-Hilfe-Station), I have
no idea how to reach it.
https://www.116117.de/de/aerztlicher-bereitschaftsdienst.php suggests
"Sie sind krank und die Arztpraxen sind zu? Sie sind nicht
lebensbedrohlich erkrankt, k%nnen jedoch nicht bis zur nEchsten
Sprechzeit warten? Dann helfen Haus- und FachErzte im Erztlichen
Bereitschaftsdienst.[...]
Sie k%nnen entweder direkt eine ge%ffnete Bereitschaftspraxis in Ihrer
NEhe aufsuchen oder die 116117 wEhlen. Die Mitarbeitenden der 116117
kennen -rzte und -rztinnen in Ihrer NEhe oder schicken bei Bedarf einen
Arzt oder eine -rztin zu Ihnen nach Hause. Sie erhalten die Erztliche
Hilfe, die Sie brauchen."
It's not something I've needed in my time in Germany, and I haven't worked
as a doctor there, so I have no direct experience of it.
I work in the equivalent here a certain amount. I quite like it, a higher proportion of people I can actually help compared to the day job. No-one is calling GP out of hours because the time to see a rheumatologist to manage their likely rheumatoid arthritis is nine to twelve months.
If the article means that every doctor has to work some time in an A&E,
I don't know the details. It's quite possible that I was visited also by
a GP when I had to go to an A&E, but I didn't notice. You tell at the entrance why you're there, then you're sent to a waiting room and wait until they find out who is the most appropriate doctor for your case and when they're available.
My understanding is that most doctors will work in the Notaufnahme as part of their training, though I would be surprised if this holds for radiologists and
pathologists.
Le 16/08/2026 |a 07:16, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
[...] In fact my mother
warned us about almost anything that humans might do.
You'd think that mothers would do that on 'Mothering Sunday' and take
the rest of the year off. Perhaps I'm missing somethingrCa.
Hmm. Point of usage: is a 'motherfucker' just a father?
Den 16.08.2026 kl. 09.36 skrev Hibou:
Hmm. Point of usage: is a 'motherfucker' just a father?
I've read an explanation for the expression that sound plausible, but I
do not know if it is true.
It was explained as the word that slave-children used about the master
who had raped their mother. They didn't want to call him "father".
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 22:29:54 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com>'
wrote:
RE: "people of restricted growth" (aka "Porg") This term was first
introduced back in the 1970s - so "in vogue at present" is slightly
misleading.
Gulf of America is more recent, however.
Le 16/08/2026 |a 07:16, Bertel Lund Hansen a |-crit :
[...] In fact my mother
warned us about almost anything that humans might do.
You'd think that mothers would do that on 'Mothering Sunday' and take
the rest of the year off. Perhaps I'm missing somethingrCa.
Hmm. Point of usage: is a 'motherfucker' just a father?
On 15/08/2026 11:18, occam wrote:
'Politically correct' thinking. The particular sort of wokery that I
dislike is linguistic PC that is in vogue at present.-a Calling midgets
'people of restricted growth' is one example. Similarly, calling
disabled people 'differently abled' is another. And the list goes on.
Words can surprise you.
RE: "people of restricted growth" (aka "Porg")
This term was first introduced back in the 1970s - so "in vogue at
present" is slightly misleading.
Bertel Lund Hansen hat am 16.08.2026 um 10:15 geschrieben:
Den 16.08.2026 kl. 08.37 skrev Silvano:
Bandiera rossa trionfer|a.
What does the accent mean for the pronunciation?
The stress goes on that vowel and not (as usual) on the last but one or
(not so usual) even further back.
They use the same system in Spanish and Portuguese, but they are much
more consistent.
an accent to show the unusual place of the word stress.--
It's a curious term. There must be many, many men - and quite a few
women - who have slept with mothers.
On 16/08/26 16:16, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 16.08.2026 kl. 01.37 skrev Peter Moylan:
I'm not surprised. You can't live in Denmark without learning to
swim and be aware of dangerous water. In countries where there's
a long way to the sea, people will have less experience with it.
Here we're repeatedly told "Swim between the flags". The flags
indicate that there's a life saver on duty. (And there are other
kinds of flags meaning things like "beach closed".) It seems that
many tourists are not aware of the meaning of the flags, and they
prefer to swim in less crowded parts of the beach. In addition
Australia has many unpatrolled beaches, which are safe only if you
have a good eye for where the dangerous currents are.
We don't have flags in the sea (there could be a few places) but we
do have flags to signal the quality of the water and to signal "No bathing". We also have life savers on some beaches.
We generally have them on all city beaches. They might be less common in small seaside towns that attract tourists.
One of the duties of lifeguards, at the beginning of the day, is to
assess the roughness of the surf and look for rips -- the ocean currents
that carry the unwary out to sea -- and to decide on the basis of that
where to put the flags to tell people where to swim. The dangerous
sections can move depending on weather and things like shifting sandbanks.
One of the duties of lifeguards, at the beginning of the day, is to
assess the roughness of the surf and look for rips -- the ocean currents
that carry the unwary out to sea -- and to decide on the basis of that
where to put the flags to tell people where to swim. The dangerous
sections can move depending on weather and things like shifting sandbanks.
On 16/08/26 16:16, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
Den 16.08.2026 kl. 01.37 skrev Peter Moylan:
I'm not surprised. You can't live in Denmark without learning to
swim and be aware of dangerous water. In countries where there's
a long way to the sea, people will have less experience with it.
Here we're repeatedly told "Swim between the flags". The flags
indicate that there's a life saver on duty. (And there are other
kinds of flags meaning things like "beach closed".) It seems that
many tourists are not aware of the meaning of the flags, and they
prefer to swim in less crowded parts of the beach. In addition
Australia has many unpatrolled beaches, which are safe only if you
have a good eye for where the dangerous currents are.
We don't have flags in the sea (there could be a few places) but we
do have flags to signal the quality of the water and to signal "No
bathing". We also have life savers on some beaches.
We generally have them on all city beaches. They might be less common in small seaside towns that attract tourists.
One of the duties of lifeguards, at the beginning of the day, is to
assess the roughness of the surf and look for rips -- the ocean currents
that carry the unwary out to sea -- and to decide on the basis of that
where to put the flags to tell people where to swim. The dangerous
sections can move depending on weather and things like shifting sandbanks.
In article <115s5fb$461v$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
One of the duties of lifeguards, at the beginning of the day, is to
assess the roughness of the surf and look for rips -- the ocean currents
that carry the unwary out to sea -- and to decide on the basis of that
where to put the flags to tell people where to swim. The dangerous
sections can move depending on weather and things like shifting sandbanks.
I'm not a beachgoer so I don't know if ours do the same thing, but I
do know that our weather service issues more generalized warnings for
rip currents when conditions are favorable (usually this means a storm
is well offshore in the Atlantic, so there's no obvious local weather
but the offshore hurricane is churning up large waves).
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 19:53:04 +0200, occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 15/08/2026 17:54, Hibou wrote:
I almost fell of my perch when I heard about this:
"Donald Trump has threatened to declare the strait of Hormuz as [sic] 'a >>> territory of the United States' as his administration struggles to
conclude the war with Iran. / During a speech at a police academy on
Long Island, New York, on Friday, the US president said he would 'pretty >>> soon' designate the waterway rCo a crucial chokepoint for global trade,
through which about a fifth of the worldrCOs seaborne oil supplies
typically pass rCo a US territory" -
<https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/aug/14/trump-threat-strait-
hormuz-us-territory>
I think it should also be renamed 'Straight of America". That should
seal it.
On all the maps I've ever seen it has a disinct kink in it.
On Sat, 15 Aug 2026 20:47:52 +0200, Silvano
<Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> wrote:
occam hat am 15.08.2026 um 13:06 geschrieben:
On 14/08/2026 13:04, J. J. Lodder wrote:
I've heard Northern Italians claim just that.
'Africa starts below Rome", they told me,
Now there's an insult if I ever saw one. It's like Londoners calling any >>> persons north of Watford as 'Northerners'.
No, it's 100 times worse, I think. But of course I'm wrong, if there is
a widespread movement among Londoners to secede from England north of
Wattord.
The book to read is:
Wise, Arthur. 1969. The day the Queen flew to Scotland for the
grouse shooting: a document. London: Hodder.
A football riot which breaks up the
Newcastle-Chelsea final at Wembley escalates
into civil war between the North and the
South.
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:
One of the duties of lifeguards, at the beginning of the day, is
to assess the roughness of the surf and look for rips -- the ocean
currents that carry the unwary out to sea -- and to decide on the
basis of that where to put the flags to tell people where to swim.
The dangerous sections can move depending on weather and things
like shifting sandbanks.
You have runaway sandbanks?
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