• "Parallel societies"

    From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Sat Jun 27 08:00:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
    'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the term
    was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.

    According to Wiki:

    "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
    least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well as
    other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."
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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 11:07:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:

    I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
    'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
    term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
    it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.

    According to Wiki:

    "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
    least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
    as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."

    It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
    undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
    up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.

    In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
    between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
    Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and
    within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
    communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
    the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that
    community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the
    whole reason.

    In this country we're very conscious of the backwards status of
    indigenous people. They suffer from poor health, poor education,
    poverty, domestic violence, high rates of imprisonment, and so on. The
    main reason is that all these factors are interlinked. Poverty leads to
    poor education, which leads to unemployment, more poverty, crime, etc.
    It's a vicious cycle. Attempts to break the cycle have mostly failed.
    But at least there's recognition that there is a problem, which gives
    hope for the future.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 06:11:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 28/06/2026 |a 02:07, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:

    I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
    'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
    term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
    it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.

    According to Wiki:

    "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
    least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
    as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."

    It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
    up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.


    I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the
    Jewish ghettos on the Continent. 'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of interaction.

    In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
    between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
    Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and
    within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
    communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
    the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the
    whole reason. [rCa]


    Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British people
    on the Continent:

    "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French on
    a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
    translate documents and even accompany them to hospital appointments.
    However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being integrated.

    What surprised me was how creative people became when articulating a
    sense of what it meant to be integrated - for them. One couple, whose
    low level of French limited their activities, skimmed over their lack of socialising and emphasised their compliance with French residency laws.
    They contrasted themselves with the 'part-timers' who still drove around
    with UK registration plates. [rCa]

    The same people had proudly told me that they filled the car with bacon
    and teabags on their twice yearly trips home, just a few minutes after describing other Britons as sad and wrong for continuing to eat British
    foods" - <https://www.open.ac.uk/blogs/news/education-languages-health/languages/britons-reluctant-to-appear-part-of-a-british-expat-community-in-france-brexit-could-change-that/>

    And it's true of migrants who come here and stick to their own language, foods, religion, customs, and even laws. Parallel societies.

    Language is key. Without it, integration is impossible.

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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 10:40:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 28.06.2026 kl. 03.07 skrev Peter Moylan:

    It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
    up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.

    We have a ghetto-list in Denmark. Anumber of criteria must be met to
    deserve an entry on the list. Most if not all areas on the list consist
    of multiple floor blocks. The solution is to tear down a number of these blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses instead. This way the number of problematic inhabitants is rduced and -
    lo and behold - the area is no longer on the list.

    It's less stupid than I make it sound. The mix of inhabitants may have a positive influence.

    In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
    between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In
    Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out.

    I have the impression that Vietnamese people also integrate well. But
    then those people fleeing from Vietnam already have positive attitude
    towards the European (Western) style.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 10:42:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 28.06.2026 kl. 07.11 skrev Hibou:

    It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an
    undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
    up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.


    I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the
    Jewish ghettos on the Continent. 'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of interaction.

    We use both words in Denmark. "Ghetto" just signals problems. "Parallel society" suggests what the problems are.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 11:01:47 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Hibou <vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:

    Le 28/06/2026 |a 02:07, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 27/06/26 16:00, occam wrote:

    I came across this term 'parallel society' to describe the US term
    'ghetto' while watching a documentary about Denmark. Apparently the
    term was coined in the 1990s by sociologist Wilhelm Heitmeyer, hence
    it's a euphemism with European origins, for a change.

    According to Wiki:

    "Denmark has used the term to define social housing estates where at
    least half the residents are from "non-Western" countries, as well
    as other factors such as high crime and unemployment rates."

    It's more than just a euphemism. The word "ghetto" carries with it an undertone of "this problem will always be with us". A new term does open
    up the possibility of asking what we can do about the problem.


    I agree that they're different. For one thing, 'ghetto' evokes the
    Jewish ghettos on the Continent.

    Easily said, by the English. There were no ghettos in England
    because the English had expelled and/or massacred all Jews in 1290.
    (while confiscating most of their possessions of course)
    This was an European first, fully 200 years
    before the Inquisition started becoming real nasty.

    'Parallel societies' suggests a lack of interaction.

    They certainly had 'a lack of interaction' after that.

    In the case of migrant communities, there's a definite difference
    between cultures that work hard to succeed and those that don't. In Australia the ethnic Chinese stand out. They work hard, they teach their children to work hard, the children are high achievers at school, and within one generation they have moved up socially. Some other
    communities shrink within their own group, limit their interaction with
    the wider community, and discourage their children from joining that community. Religion is part of the reason for this, but it can't be the whole reason. [rCa]


    Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British people
    on the Continent:

    "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French on
    a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
    translate documents and even accompany them to hospital appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being integrated.

    Some even write books on it.
    <https://www.undutchables.com>
    (and run a help agency with the same name)

    Jan
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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 21:08:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:

    Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
    people on the Continent:

    "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
    on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
    translate documents and even accompany them to hospital
    appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being integrated.

    I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
    My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
    food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
    at the time was an Australian thing to do.

    Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
    speak American. At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
    spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 13:41:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:
    On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:

    Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
    people on the Continent:

    "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
    on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
    -atranslate documents and even accompany them to hospital
    appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being
    integrated.

    I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
    My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
    food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
    at the time was an Australian thing to do.

    Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
    speak American.

    <smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?

    QUOTE: (P. Moylan, 20/05/2026, thread 'Logorreah')

    "The silly thing was that in my son's class there was only one speaker
    of white American"


    At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
    spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.


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  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 14:46:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 28/06/2026 |a 12:08, Peter Moylan a |-crit :
    On 28/06/26 15:11, Hibou wrote:

    Some migrants don't mix, it's true. This is true of some British
    people on the Continent:

    "Many of those I spoke to felt that they managed quite well in French
    on a 'need to know basis', relying on more competent acquaintances to
    -atranslate documents and even accompany them to hospital
    appointments. However, such dependency contradicts the idea of being
    integrated.

    I was partly guilty of this during the year in which I lived in the USA.
    My friends were mostly from British Commonwealth or former Commonwealth countries At times we used to sit around griping about the difficulty of understanding those crazy Americans. My mother-in-law often mailed us
    food parcels (although not on my request). I drove a Japanese car, which
    at the time was an Australian thing to do.

    Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning to
    speak American. At Thanksgiving I ate pumpkin pie without grimacing. I
    spoke to people at bus stops. So I'll give myself a score of 50%.


    There are temporary stays for work (I recall I was invited to go to
    Boulder for a while, but never did) and permanent migration by choice. I
    admit to being suspicious of those who move to a country for its
    prosperity, climate, freedom, democracy, or healthcare, while disdaining
    its culture. It feels somehow insulting.

    Yet here I am in Scotland, after a wee migration a long time ago. What
    about the culture? Whisky, yes. Bagpipes, sometimes, when I'm in the
    mood. The kilt? No. Scotch pies? Not any more, at least not cheap ones; they're heart attacks on a plate. (I eat fruit and veg, which is a bit
    dodgy.) Jack Vettriano? Yes. Charles Rennie Mackintosh? No. I mix with
    the locals, though, married a Scotswoman, and we usually understand each other.

    (Here's tae us! Wha's like us?
    Gey few - an they're a' deid!

    What a depressing toast!)

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  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 15:32:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:


    ...The solution is to tear down a number of these
    blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses instead.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to build the houses first?
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Sun Jun 28 17:24:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 28.06.2026 kl. 16.32 skrev Liz Tuddenham:

    ...The solution is to tear down a number of these
    blocks forcing the inhabitants to move elsewhere, and then build houses
    instead.

    Wouldn't it make more sense to build the houses first?

    The plan is not to have the unhomed inhabitants live in the area. That
    would prevent the status from changing to non-ghetto.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Mon Jun 29 10:14:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 28/06/26 21:41, occam wrote:
    On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning
    to speak American.

    <smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?

    Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.
    People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
    local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
    what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.

    The black people in that area speak a rather different dialect. I learnt
    to understand that, but not to speak it.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Mon Jun 29 00:55:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <111sdd7$3v62q$1@dont-email.me>,
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.
    People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from >outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
    local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
    what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.

    I suspect the late Bill Labov would strongly dispute that assertion,
    although to be fair CalE is not particularly noticeably distinct from
    the other west-coast states as it is from other dialect regions.
    Minnesota is (certainly was, when you were in Berkeley) much whiter
    than California and it has and had a very different local accent.
    Likewise Western New England (my native accent).

    That said, dialectologists often exclude people who have moved in
    adulthood from accent surveys specifically because of the phenomenon
    you are describing, that it is difficult to tell what's accommodation
    and what's substrate for non-natives.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Mon Jun 29 15:04:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> posted:

    On 28/06/26 21:41, occam wrote:
    On 28/06/2026 13:08, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Still, I made some effort to integrate. I worked hard at learning
    to speak American.

    <smile> Would that be white American, or some other variety of AmE?

    Berkeley is a place where you don't often meet a native Californian.

    (I thought I had already commented on this, but apparently I forgot to press post. So I try again. If I did in fact post it, but for reason my computer is not displaying it, then I apologize for repeating myself.)

    In 1968 I went with my fianc|-e to a party in the house of my boss, at which there were about 40 people. Of that 40 there was just one native Californian, my fianc|-e, born in Vallejo to parents from Texas and Illinois. For a long time I thought that my boss was also a native Californian, but no: although
    he came from a family that made a fortune in California during the gold rush (think Levi-Strauss), he was born in New York.

    Of my daughters, the oldest lives in California and was born in Oakland, so
    she is a native Californian, but you wouldn't think it to listen to her: she sounds completely English. The second sounds American, but was born in Birmingham. THe third sounds completely French when she speaks French, primarily
    English when she speaks English, and Chilean when she speaks Spanish. Professor
    Henry Higgins would have a job placing them all by their accents.

    People have migrated there from all over the country, and of course from outside the country as well. As a result, there's not a well-defined
    local dialect. It's a mixture of multiple influences, and I guess that[s
    what I learnt to speak. "White American" is as good a description as any.

    The black people in that area speak a rather different dialect. I learnt
    to understand that, but not to speak it.

    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
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