• The rhythm of a language

    From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 09:53:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station,
    where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Steve Hayes@hayesstw@telkomsa.net to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 04:50:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On Wed, 17 Jun 2026 09:53:56 +1000, Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org>
    wrote:

    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    In my late teens and early 20s I lived in Johannesburg, which is a
    cosmopolitan city, and so many languages are heard, and code switching
    is common. There are two main groups of African languages in South
    Africa -- Nguni and Sotho-Tswana, and I learnt to distinguish the
    group that people were speaking, if not the actual language, mainly
    through the rhythm, and the kinds of consonants they used.

    Sotho-Tswana used ts where Zulu and Xhosa would use z (notice anything
    simuilar in English-German?). Swazi (SiSwati) used just t, which is
    why what the English called "Swaziland" is now known as "eSwatini").
    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 06:31:33 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 17/06/2026 |a 00:53, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.


    I agree that one can often identify a language or dialect from what I
    think of as its music, even if one hears only a snatch of it. People
    from some parts of the world speak loudly, which makes it easier. To
    them I'd say: you're a nuisance on the bus and - make no mistake - we
    know who you are and we know where you're from. Think on!

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 07:47:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 17/06/2026 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian,

    ...even without the hand gestures? I suppose you're right.


    even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.


    This is a daily pastime for me in Lux. We have the whole gamut of
    languages thanks to the European institutions, and tourism.

    So, even when the language spoken is French, you can pick out the native
    French speakers from the locals speaking it (it's an official language
    here). Ditto German. I don't speak German or Luxembourgish, but the
    difference of rhythm is unmistakable.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 08:45:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:

    On 17/06/2026 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is speaking Italian,

    ...even without the hand gestures? I suppose you're right.

    My wife can identify Argentinians by their gestures even when they are too far away to be heard. I would have said "says she can" rather than "can" if it were not for one case, not long after we were married, when we were in a train in China. At the far end of a long carriage there was a group of people who were clearly not Chinese. My wife said she thought they were Argentinian. How can you possibly tell, I asked, they are too far away to hear them. So she walked to the far end of the carriage and when she came back she said yes, they were Argentinian. I can't always recognize Argentinians by their accent, unless there are strong hints, like pronouncing ll as zh (/-A/], but I can tell when a Chilean is pretending to be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending
    to be Belgian without needing to say "nonante").

    even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I could still tell which was which.


    This is a daily pastime for me in Lux. We have the whole gamut of
    languages thanks to the European institutions, and tourism.

    So, even when the language spoken is French, you can pick out the native French speakers from the locals speaking it (it's an official language
    here). Ditto German. I don't speak German or Luxembourgish, but the difference of rhythm is unmistakable.

    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 09:58:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 17/06/2026 |a 09:45, athel.cb@gmail.com a |-crit :

    [...] but I can tell when
    a Chilean is pretending to be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending
    to be Belgian without needing to say "nonante").


    Or -2 une fois -+.

    <https://www.reddit.com/r/PasDeQuestionIdiote/comments/1mdc2sw/pourquoi_les_belges_disent_souvent_une_fois_%C3%A0_la/>

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 20:27:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> posted:

    On 17/06/2026 01:53, Peter Moylan wrote:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is speaking Italian,

    ...even without the hand gestures? I suppose you're right.

    My wife can identify Argentinians by their gestures even when they are too far away to be heard. I would have said "says she can" rather than "can"
    if it were not for one case, not long after we were married, when we were
    in a train in China. At the far end of a long carriage there was a group
    of people who were clearly not Chinese. My wife said she thought they were Argentinian. How can you possibly tell, I asked, they are too far away to hear them. So she walked to the far end of the carriage and when she came back she said yes, they were Argentinian. I can't always recognize Argentinians by their accent, unless there are strong hints, like
    pronouncing ll as zh (/?/], but I can tell when a Chilean is pretending to
    be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending to be Belgian
    without needing to say "nonante").

    But why would a French person want to impersonate a Belgian?

    Jan

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 17 23:22:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 17/06/2026 06:31, Hibou wrote:
    Le 17/06/2026 |a 00:53, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station,
    where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.


    I agree that one can often identify a language or dialect from what I
    think of as its music, even if one hears only a snatch of it. People
    from some parts of the world speak loudly, which makes it easier. To
    them I'd say: you're a nuisance on the bus and - make no mistake - we
    know who you are and we know where you're from. Think on!


    It can trip you up.
    Why only yesterday I was standing on the White Cliffs of Dover (someone
    has to do it) and heard a couple of women, presumably derived from the
    Indian subcontinent, speaking.
    It was only when I got nearer to them that I realised they were speaking English - but very fast, and with the rhythm of a different language.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 06:48:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 17/06/2026 |a 19:27, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    [...] but I can tell when a Chilean is pretending to
    be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending to be Belgian
    without needing to say "nonante").

    But why would a French person want to impersonate a Belgian?


    To poke fun at them. Pour rire une fois.

    Doesn't everyone have someone like this? Don't the Dutch take the piss
    out of the Belgians too?

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 08:06:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 17/06/2026 |a 23:22, Sam Plusnet a |-crit :
    On 17/06/2026 06:31, Hibou wrote:

    I agree that one can often identify a language or dialect from what I
    think of as its music, even if one hears only a snatch of it. People
    from some parts of the world speak loudly, which makes it easier. To
    them I'd say: you're a nuisance on the bus and - make no mistake - we
    know who you are and we know where you're from. Think on!

    It can trip you up.
    Why only yesterday I was standing on the White Cliffs of Dover (someone
    has to do it) and heard a couple of women, presumably derived from the Indian subcontinent, speaking.
    It was only when I got nearer to them that I realised they were speaking English - but very fast, and with the rhythm of a different language.


    Well, that's just not playing the game.

    Then there's the way people walk. I sometimes gaze out of the window at passers-by - walking quickly, confidently upright, or hunched as if
    trying to be inconspicuous. I'm probably wrong, but I think I can spot American actors pretending to be German sentries in war films. They've
    the wrong kind of swagger.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 17:57:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 18/06/26 17:06, Hibou wrote:

    Then there's the way people walk. I sometimes gaze out of the window
    at passers-by - walking quickly, confidently upright, or hunched as
    if trying to be inconspicuous. I'm probably wrong, but I think I can
    spot American actors pretending to be German sentries in war films.
    They've the wrong kind of swagger.

    I can usually tell the sex of a person at a distance. Men walk with
    elbows out. Women walk with elbows in and hands out.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 10:57:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 18.06.2026 kl. 09.57 skrev Peter Moylan:

    I can usually tell the sex of a person at a distance. Men walk with
    elbows out. Women walk with elbows in and hands out.

    When my eldest daughter was about 2-+ years old and we were walking in
    the city, my late ex-wife suddenly remarked that you could tell that it
    was a girl from the way she walked. My daughter was about 10 meters ahead.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wugi@wugi@brol.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 16:47:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Op 18/06/2026 om 7:48 schreef Hibou:
    Le 17/06/2026 |a 19:27, J. J. Lodder a |-crit :
    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    [...] but I can tell when a Chilean is pretending to
    be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending to be Belgian
    without needing to say "nonante").

    But why would a French person want to impersonate a Belgian?


    To poke fun at them. Pour rire une fois.

    Doesn't everyone have someone like this? Don't the Dutch take the piss
    out of the Belgians too?

    Yes the Dutch are crazy about Belgian jokes (they actually mean Flemish
    jokes but wouldn't know the difference). Know why? Cause they're so
    cheap there.
    --
    guido wugi
    Well, that was some time ago. Things seem to have calmed down since then.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From occam@occam@nowhere.nix to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 17:00:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 18/06/2026 09:06, Hibou wrote:


    Then there's the way people walk. I sometimes gaze out of the window at passers-by - walking quickly, confidently upright, or hunched as if
    trying to be inconspicuous. I'm probably wrong, but I think I can spot American actors pretending to be German sentries in war films. They've
    the wrong kind of swagger.

    Are there many American actors playing German sentry roles in your neck
    of the world? How to verify your claim?
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wugi@wugi@brol.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 17:00:53 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Op 17/06/2026 om 1:53 schreef Peter Moylan:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for
    the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain
    obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding. I've
    thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus or a
    public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.
    --
    guido wugi
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 15:50:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> posted:

    Op 17/06/2026 om 1:53 schreef Peter Moylan:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding. I've
    thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus or a
    public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.

    When I've heard Portuguese spoken in an unexpected place I've sometimes thought it was Russian. Once in a restaurant at Gatwick Airport I spent the whole meal trying to decide if the waiters were speaking Portuguese or Russian among themselves. At one point I was sure that I'd heard the word x-+-C-+-e-+ (fine) and
    concluded that it was Russian. However, they were speaking Portuguese.

    Before you say that I must be an idiot to confuse two rather different languages,
    but I'm not alone, and I've come across plenty of people who have had similar experiences, most notably two Russian scientists that I met in a laboratory in Lisbon who told me that quite often they would be approached by people in the street who heard them speaking and thought they were speaking Portuguese.

    I would add that Brazil is very different. I can understand about 30% of what
    I hear in Brazil, but about 0.5% of what I hear in Portugal. A fluent speaker of Spanish can follow a large proportion of what they hear in Brazil, but almost nothing in Portugal. Even Brazilians sometimes find communication difficult in Portugal.

    Spanish <-> Portuguese is essentially a one-way filter. Much like Swedish <-> Danish, I've been told, with the difference that Portuguese speakers leave
    out the vowels and Danish speakers leave out the consonants.
    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From wugi@wugi@brol.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 18:06:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Op 18/06/2026 om 17:50 schreef athel.cb@gmail.com:

    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> posted:

    Op 17/06/2026 om 1:53 schreef Peter Moylan:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for >>> the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >>> where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations >>> and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain
    obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding. I've
    thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus or a
    public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.

    When I've heard Portuguese spoken in an unexpected place I've sometimes thought
    it was Russian. Once in a restaurant at Gatwick Airport I spent the whole meal

    Deja vu or rather, entendu. Seems a classical one.

    trying to decide if the waiters were speaking Portuguese or Russian among themselves. At one point I was sure that I'd heard the word x-+-C-+-e-+ (fine) and
    concluded that it was Russian. However, they were speaking Portuguese.

    Before you say that I must be an idiot to confuse two rather different languages,
    but I'm not alone, and I've come across plenty of people who have had similar

    Add me in.

    experiences, most notably two Russian scientists that I met in a laboratory in
    Lisbon who told me that quite often they would be approached by people in the street who heard them speaking and thought they were speaking Portuguese.

    I would add that Brazil is very different. I can understand about 30% of what I hear in Brazil, but about 0.5% of what I hear in Portugal. A fluent speaker of Spanish can follow a large proportion of what they hear in Brazil, but almost nothing in Portugal. Even Brazilians sometimes find communication difficult in Portugal.

    Spanish <-> Portuguese is essentially a one-way filter. Much like Swedish <-> Danish, I've been told, with the difference that Portuguese speakers leave out the vowels and Danish speakers leave out the consonants.

    Also Spanish and Greek heard at a distance: similar phonetics and
    rhythm. Wasn't there something alike between Bahasa and Italian?
    --
    guido wugi

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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 18:10:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 18.06.2026 kl. 17.00 skrev wugi:

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station,
    where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations
    and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding.

    I've hear Rumanian in the tv which I thought was Italian.

    I've thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus or a public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.

    Many years ago I turned on the tv and fell into some program. The
    language was incomprehensible for a while until I suddenly realised that
    it was Danish. I had started listening out of sync with the speaker. It
    was quite strange.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

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  • From Bertel Lund Hansen@rundtosset@lundhansen.dk to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 18:15:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Den 18.06.2026 kl. 17.50 skrev athel.cb@gmail.com:
    Spanish <-> Portuguese is essentially a one-way filter. Much like Swedish <-> Danish, I've been told, with the difference that Portuguese speakers leave out the vowels and Danish speakers leave out the consonants.

    We are more broadminded than that. We can leave out anything -
    consonants, vowels, syllables or even words.
    --
    Bertel, Kolt, Danmark

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From athel.cb@gmail.com@user12588@newsgrouper.org.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 16:29:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> posted:

    Op 18/06/2026 om 17:50 schreef athel.cb@gmail.com:

    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> posted:

    Op 17/06/2026 om 1:53 schreef Peter Moylan:
    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV >>> in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through >>> the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for >>> the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >>> where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations >>> and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I >>> could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain
    obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding. I've
    thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus or a
    public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.

    When I've heard Portuguese spoken in an unexpected place I've sometimes thought
    it was Russian. Once in a restaurant at Gatwick Airport I spent the whole meal

    Deja vu or rather, entendu. Seems a classical one.

    trying to decide if the waiters were speaking Portuguese or Russian among themselves. At one point I was sure that I'd heard the word x-+-C-+-e-+ (fine) and
    concluded that it was Russian. However, they were speaking Portuguese.

    Before you say that I must be an idiot to confuse two rather different languages,
    but I'm not alone, and I've come across plenty of people who have had similar

    Add me in.

    experiences, most notably two Russian scientists that I met in a laboratory in
    Lisbon who told me that quite often they would be approached by people in the
    street who heard them speaking and thought they were speaking Portuguese.

    I would add that Brazil is very different. I can understand about 30% of what
    I hear in Brazil, but about 0.5% of what I hear in Portugal. A fluent speaker
    of Spanish can follow a large proportion of what they hear in Brazil, but almost nothing in Portugal. Even Brazilians sometimes find communication difficult in Portugal.

    Spanish <-> Portuguese is essentially a one-way filter. Much like Swedish <->
    Danish, I've been told, with the difference that Portuguese speakers leave out the vowels and Danish speakers leave out the consonants.

    Also Spanish and Greek heard at a distance: similar phonetics and
    rhythm.

    Yes. I've sometimes thought that Greek sounds like Spanish from a distance.

    Wasn't there something alike between Bahasa and Italian?

    Maybe. I've never been exposed to much Bahasa, at least as spoken in Indonesia, but as a small child I heard a lot of Malay, but that was a long time ago (1940s) and at that time I had no idea of what Italian sounded like.

    I've heard of Turkish being compared with Italian, but after visiting Turkey
    I came to the conclusion that there is not much similarity, beyond the lack
    of the harsh throat-clearing sounds so prominent in Arabic and Hebrew. I felt that the best description of how Turkish sounds is "nondescript", and I wouldn't
    say the same of Italian.
    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
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  • From wugi@wugi@brol.invalid to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 18:36:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Op 18/06/2026 om 18:10 schreef Bertel Lund Hansen:
    Den 18.06.2026 kl. 17.00 skrev wugi:

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >>> where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations >>> and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain
    obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for
    another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding.

    I've hear Rumanian in the tv which I thought was Italian.

    I've thought repeatedly I was hearing Flemish or Dutch in, say, a bus
    or a public place, when it turned out to be some alienese. Swedish or
    Norwegian and even Japanese utterances have made me think I was
    listening to West-Flemings. Etc.

    Many years ago I turned on the tv and fell into some program. The
    language was incomprehensible for a while until I suddenly realised that
    it was Danish. I had started listening out of sync with the speaker. It
    was quite strange.


    Yes, that too, discovering you're hearing your own language. Anyway,
    there's the thing with accents, what with Brazilian vs. Portuguese.

    And Dutch vs. Flemish. As a child when visiting the beach at Cadzand in Zeeland just past the Belgian border, I got lost straying in the dunes
    and back to the beach. I started crying, and a friendly young couple
    passed by and asked me what happened. I was well aware of our different accents and, "planing off my wild man's club", explained my distress in
    my best Beschaafd Nederlands. While I could understand them perfectly,
    they obviously couldn't make any sense of my talking and eventually knew nothing better than to turn away and leave me just there. (Later on a
    mounted policeman took charge and after a joyful ride we found my family).
    --
    guido wugi
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  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 20:29:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    [...]
    When I've heard Portuguese spoken in an unexpected place I've
    sometimes thought it was Russian.
    [...]
    but I'm not alone,

    I have also confused those two languages. I once commented that, to me, Portugese sounded like Spanish spoken backwards by a drunk Russian - the
    person I said it to then told me his wife was Portugese....
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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  • From liz@liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 20:29:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Bertel Lund Hansen <rundtosset@lundhansen.dk> wrote:

    Den 18.06.2026 kl. 17.00 skrev wugi:

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >> where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations >> and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.

    That will work only for languages one knows or has some notion of. For
    most people it wouldn't exceed the dozen. All the others would remain obscure.

    OTOH there are languages and accents that can easily be mistaken for another one when heard as a mumble or in a noisy surrounding.

    I've hear Rumanian in the tv which I thought was Italian.

    There is a lot of similarity between them. Our local butcher is
    Romanian and speaks very little English; sometimes I can work out what
    he is trying to tell me because I can recognise the Latin roots of the
    words.
    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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  • From Radey Shouman@shouman@comcast.net to alt.usage.english on Thu Jun 18 17:39:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes:

    On 17/06/2026 06:31, Hibou wrote:
    Le 17/06/2026 |a 00:53, Peter Moylan a |-crit :

    The other day I was sitting at my computer, and my wife was watching TV
    in another room. The sounds of the movie she was watching came through
    the walls, but not loudly enough to allow words to be picked up. Not for >>> the first time, it struck me how easy it is to tell that someone is
    speaking Italian, even if you can't clearly hear the words. Of course
    all languages have some characteristic -- rhythm, tone, and so on --
    that identify them, but Italian is one of the easier ones to pick.

    When I was a student I often travelled by train. Spencer Street station, >>> where most of the country trains departed, was a place where many
    languages could be heard. It used to amuse me to listen to conversations >>> and identify the language. I didn't speak any of those languages, but I
    could still tell which was which.
    I agree that one can often identify a language or dialect from what
    I think of as its music, even if one hears only a snatch of
    it. People from some parts of the world speak loudly, which makes it
    easier. To them I'd say: you're a nuisance on the bus and - make no
    mistake - we know who you are and we know where you're from. Think
    on!


    It can trip you up.
    Why only yesterday I was standing on the White Cliffs of Dover
    (someone has to do it) and heard a couple of women, presumably derived
    from the Indian subcontinent, speaking.
    It was only when I got nearer to them that I realised they were
    speaking English - but very fast, and with the rhythm of a different language.

    Some time ago, in Egypt, I met an Indian fellow. He spoke excellent
    English, with an American accent. He told me he had lived several years
    in Los Angeles, where he picked up the accent and the rhythm. When he
    went back to India, he tried speaking American English. That was a
    failure, no one could understand him. In India, he said, one should
    speak Indian English.
    --

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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Fri Jun 19 10:25:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 19/06/26 01:50, athel.cb@gmail.com wrote:

    I would add that Brazil is very different. I can understand about 30%
    of what I hear in Brazil, but about 0.5% of what I hear in Portugal.
    A fluent speaker of Spanish can follow a large proportion of what
    they hear in Brazil, but almost nothing in Portugal. Even Brazilians sometimes find communication difficult in Portugal.

    Once, at the university, I witnessed a conversation between two South
    American visitors. One was speaking Spanish, the other (Brazilian)
    Portuguese. They seemed to understand each other perfectly.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From Hibou@vpaereru-unmonitored@yahoo.com.invalid to alt.usage.english on Fri Jun 19 06:51:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    Le 18/06/2026 |a 16:00, occam a |-crit :
    On 18/06/2026 09:06, Hibou wrote:

    [...] I'm probably wrong, but I think I can spot
    American actors pretending to be German sentries in war films. They've
    the wrong kind of swagger.

    Are there many American actors playing German sentry roles in your neck
    of the world? How to verify your claim?


    My claim that I think I can spot them? When it comes to what my thoughts
    are, you'll just have to take me at my word, I'm afraid.

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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Fri Jun 19 13:26:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

    Op 18/06/2026 om 7:48 schreef Hibou:
    Le 17/06/2026 a 19:27, J. J. Lodder a ocrit :
    <athel.cb@gmail.com> wrote:

    [...] but I can tell when a Chilean is pretending to
    be Argentinian (a bit like a French person pretending to be Belgian
    without needing to say "nonante").

    But why would a French person want to impersonate a Belgian?


    To poke fun at them. Pour rire une fois.

    Doesn't everyone have someone like this? Don't the Dutch take the piss
    out of the Belgians too?

    Yes the Dutch are crazy about Belgian jokes (they actually mean Flemish
    jokes but wouldn't know the difference). Know why? Cause they're so
    cheap there.

    Shooting back at Hibou?

    Jan


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