• Re: Whereabouts of J. Friedman ?

    From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 21:14:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 10/06/26 19:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    Recent publicity about social media algorithms has, I believe, left
    the general population with a misunderstanding of the meaning of
    "algorithm". They don't know what the word means, but they have
    the general impression that it refers to something evil.

    That is a lost battle, by now. And indeed, 'algorithms' can be, and
    therefore are evil, when applied for example by state agencies to discriminate.

    What this means, I believe, is that we are seeing a split in the meaning
    of the word. Those who have a mathematical background have one
    understanding of the word "algorithm". Others would define it completely differently.

    We did have a longish discussion on 'algorithm, while Jerry still
    here. He favoured an even stricter definition, due to Donald Knuth,
    which restricts 'algorithm' even further, to processes which are
    known to end in a finite number of steps,

    Jan (I disagreed)

    That disagreement has meaning only to those of us in the mathematical
    camp. Others would see the distinction as irrelevant, and possibly incomprehensible.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From Peter Moylan@peter@pmoylan.org to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 21:20:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    On 10/06/26 19:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:

    AFAIK all this 'quantum conciousness' nonsense
    originates with a joke by Wigner about Schroedinger's cat.

    That cat has had so much publicity that it's probably [1] feeling quite self-satisfied.

    [1] If it's still alive. Which the cat knows, even if we don't.
    --
    Peter Moylan peter@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW
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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 14:11:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

    On 10/06/2026 11:45, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> wrote:

    On 09/06/26 19:55, Adam Funk wrote:
    On 2026-06-09, Peter Moylan wrote:

    Similarly, in social media we seek the company of those whose
    opinions agree with our own prejudices.

    And social media algorithms are generally designed to do that
    anyway.

    Just recently my wife asked my for a definition of "algorithm". Someone
    had told her it meant "recipe", and I confirmed that that was a pretty
    good definition. I supplemented that with a textbook reference to
    Euclid's algorithm for finding the greatest common divisor of two
    numbers. I doubt that she understood the algorithm, but that doesn't
    matter. She did understand that the word didn't refer to a specific
    recipe for a particular kind of cake, but had a wider meaning.

    Recent publicity about social media algorithms has, I believe, left the
    general population with a misunderstanding of the meaning of
    "algorithm". They don't know what the word means, but they have the
    general impression that it refers to something evil.

    That is a lost battle, by now.
    And indeed, 'algorithms' can be, and therefore are evil,
    when applied for example by state agencies to discriminate.

    We did have a longish discussion on 'algorithm,
    while Jerry still here.
    He favoured an even stricter definition, due to Donald Knuth,
    which restricts 'algorithm' even further,
    to processes which are known to end in a finite number of steps,

    Jan
    (I disagreed)

    I agree with your disagreement. How else would one explain recursive algorithms?

    Some recursive algorithms do stop after a finite numbers of steps.
    (provably)

    Jan



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  • From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 12:22:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <1rwhj4c.181jfp710ozus7N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    He favoured an even stricter definition, due to Donald Knuth,
    which restricts 'algorithm' even further,
    to processes which are known to end in a finite number of steps,

    That might be a handy defence against any laws regulating the use of algorithms. Can we expect juries to prove that a process terminates?

    -- Richard
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  • From wollman@wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 13:59:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english

    In article <110bkuv$ikdq$1@artemis.inf.ed.ac.uk>,
    Richard Tobin <richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
    In article <1rwhj4c.181jfp710ozus7N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>,
    J. J. Lodder <nospam@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote:

    He favoured an even stricter definition, due to Donald Knuth,
    which restricts 'algorithm' even further,
    to processes which are known to end in a finite number of steps,

    That might be a handy defence against any laws regulating the use of >algorithms. Can we expect juries to prove that a process terminates?

    I don't think the law takes a position on the Church-Turing Thesis.

    -GAWollman
    --
    Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can, wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
    my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015) --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mike Spencer@mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere to alt.usage.english on Wed Jun 10 20:11:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.usage.english


    nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) writes:

    Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

    So in the era of the enlightenment, 350 years since Newton and
    Leibniz, the score is:

    Monads: 1 [entanglement]

    Atoms: All the rest of physics research

    ???
    Monads and entanglement have nothing to do with each other, afaics.

    Frivolous levity. AIUI (which I may not) Leibniz supposed that monada
    were all, in some sense, *aware* of each other. Othe face of it,
    entanglement appears to be the first & only instance discovered in
    which arbitrarily distant objects might be said to be aware of each other.


    BTW, are you aware that in modern mathematics
    the Newton approach to the calculus (without monads)
    and Leibniz' approach (with monads and differentials)
    have been shown to be completely equivalent?

    Yeah. But (given I'm 84) somewhat belatedly. I was never able to
    make sense of the fact that some math and physics profs used one
    notation while others used a different one. Worse, some of them
    preached that The Other Notation was heresy, alluded to non-existent
    things, misled the innocent etc. I didn't know about the
    Newton/Leibniz bun fight when I was studying calculus.

    (it is called non-standard analysis)

    But not that. I see there's a Wikipedia page....
    --
    Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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