• Are Flock cameras next? Supreme Court rules against police using sprawling cell phone location data

    From Flocked Up@noreply@mixmin.net to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Tue Jul 7 23:25:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    COLUMBUS, Ohio rCo The U.S. Supreme Court's decision restricting law enforcement's ability to use sprawling cell phone location data is
    bringing to light questions about the legitimacy of Flock Safety
    cameras.

    Police use "geofence warrants" to get location data of suspects'
    electronic devices.

    "We just hope that it is not a tool that is removed from our tool belt,"
    Ohio Fraternal Order of Police President Jay McDonald said.

    These can help solve crimes when police run out of options, he added.

    A new Supreme Court decision is shining a spotlight on police
    technology.

    "We need to make apprehensions in those [cases] as quickly as possible
    to prevent other violent crimes from occurring," he said.

    But these search every device in an area, starting from casting a wide
    net to more in-depth data, Case Western Reserve University criminal law professor Mike Benza said.

    "Law enforcement will go to Google with this administrative warrant,
    saying, 'Give us all of the IP addresses of any connected device in this
    area around this time when a crime or some other instance of interest
    has occurred,'" Benza said.

    From there, police are able to expand the warrant and look deeper into
    specific accounts and addresses to get identity information.

    The Supreme Court is making it harder or even impossible to get them.
    The justices ruled that these warrants could constitute an unreasonable
    search and seizure, because oftentimes citizens' data is scooped up and investigated even if they have no connection to the crime.

    "I don't believe my cell number being found in a particular location is particularly troublesome to me if I haven't committed any crimes,"
    McDonald said.

    But just because someone else committed a crime, it doesn't mean that
    there is no longer a right to privacy, Benza said.

    "This could help prevent a surveillance state?" I asked the professor.

    technology basically eliminate the Fourth Amendment protection against
    an unreasonable search and seizure?" Benza responded.

    Police would still be able to get this data, as long as they can prove
    it in a probable cause warrant, not an administrative one. The latter
    have easier standards to obtain.

    surveillance.

    "Flock cameras are extremely important," McDonald said. "I certainly
    hope that this does not have an impact on that."

    The cameras, typically used as license plate readers, have popped up all
    over the state and country. They are facing increasing pushback,
    especially online and at city council meetings.

    Flock No was formed late last year when the City of Cleveland wanted to
    push through the council an emergency proposal to expand Flock's
    footprint beyond license plate readers without giving other companies a
    chance to bid.

    "IrCOm not comfortable knowing that my movements over the last month can
    be reconstructed in very great detail at any given time,rCY Flock NorCOs
    Bryn Adams said.

    the technology and looks to extend the contract

    Benza explains that Flock cameras themselves are likely not violating
    privacy laws if they are just used for plate reading. They could,
    though, depending on how much data the company is collecting and how
    agencies are using it.

    The Shaker Heights Police Department changed its policy regarding Flock
    license plate readers after data revealed that numerous outside agencies
    were using the system for immigration-related searches.

    hundreds of outside immigration searches

    We recently obtained public records chronicling all Shaker's license
    plate reader data requests from Dec. 20, 2025, through the end of April,
    2026.

    The data sets show that Shaker Heights data was accessed more than
    700,000 times, but Shaker Police accessed it only 1,016 times. The
    majority, 693,573 searches, were done by other law enforcement agencies
    in Ohio and across the country.

    A reason was listed for each search. Immigration was listed 282 times.
    I.C.E. was mentioned 32 times.

    Shaker Heights said the city now prohibits searches for "immigration,"
    and any outside agency accessing Shaker Heights' cameras must abide by
    the new rules.

    "If it's used to track you, it now starts to look more like the geofence
    and the location data," Benza said.

    On June 17, the Cleveland City Council Safety Committee voted 3-1
    against renewing the Flock Safety contract for the cityrCOs license plate readers. However, they are expected to have another meeting to discuss
    in mid-July.

    contract expired

    The Flock camera debate could make its way to the justices' desks in the
    coming years.

    In the meantime, Ohioans are taking Flock into their own hands.

    Police in Parma are trying to find out who took down their Flock
    cameras. Two people, who covered their faces, sawed the surveillance
    cameras down.

    News 5 Investigator Tara Morgan contributed to this report.

    Follow WEWS statehouse reporter Morgan Trau on Twitter and Facebook.

    https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/politics/ohio-politics/are-flock-came ras-next-supreme-court-rules-against-police-using-sprawling-cell-phone-lo cation-data
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From J@J@M to alt.privacy on Wed Jul 8 01:51:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On Tue, 7 Jul 2026 23:25:12 +0100, Flocked Up <noreply@mixmin.net> wrote:
    snip
    searches

    recommend posting to only one newsgroup at a time, especially because
    savvy usenet newsgroup subscribers use filters demoting or junkfiling
    x-posts, e.g., "!move(junk) xpost %>1", because x-posted articles are
    usually troll-bait, but because you've posted using genuine anonymous remailers, that, and to the news:alt.privacy newsgroup, that is bound
    to get noticed by subscribers and lurkers . . . can't fight city hall

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Scott Hoge@nospam@nospam.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Wed Jul 8 00:28:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On 2026-07-07, Flocked Up <noreply@mixmin.net> wrote:

    [...]

    From there, police are able to expand the warrant and look
    deeper into specific accounts and addresses to get identity
    information.

    The Supreme Court is making it harder or even impossible to get
    them. The justices ruled that these warrants could constitute
    an unreasonable search and seizure, because oftentimes
    citizens' data is scooped up and investigated even if they have
    no connection to the crime.

    "I don't believe my cell number being found in a particular
    location is particularly troublesome to me if I haven't
    committed any crimes," McDonald said.

    But just because someone else committed a crime, it doesn't
    mean that there is no longer a right to privacy, Benza said.

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    A qualitative distinction should be made between a search that
    /limits physical freedom/ and a search that does not. We are
    approaching an age where there will be /no/ privacy. Everyone
    will know everything about everyone.

    The "right to privacy" does not exist. What people fear is not so
    much an /invasion of privacy/ but the /misuse/ of information
    obtained thereby, whether by a sloping-foreheaded middle school
    blonde idiot who wants to laugh at what brand of adult diapers
    you wear, or in a wrongful arrest and detainment. Or, perhaps,
    they have genuine /malice/ to hide, and they abuse their
    "privacy" so as to conceal their misdeeds.

    Not only is there no "right to privacy," knowledge should be in
    both directions. We can't just let some crew from the military
    sneak behind us without our knowing. Those who monitor should in
    turn be monitored; no one is exempt from the rule of information
    obtainment.

    -- Scott Hoge
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Schlomo Goldberg@schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Tue Jul 14 08:35:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    On 2026-07-07, Flocked Up <noreply@mixmin.net> wrote:

    [...]

    From there, police are able to expand the warrant and look
    deeper into specific accounts and addresses to get identity
    information.

    The Supreme Court is making it harder or even impossible to get
    them. The justices ruled that these warrants could constitute
    an unreasonable search and seizure, because oftentimes
    citizens' data is scooped up and investigated even if they have
    no connection to the crime.

    "I don't believe my cell number being found in a particular
    location is particularly troublesome to me if I haven't
    committed any crimes," McDonald said.

    But just because someone else committed a crime, it doesn't
    mean that there is no longer a right to privacy, Benza said.

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a conspiracy, but
    because the contents belong exclusively to the sender and the receiver.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about deciding who
    gets access to your life. It's a boundary of power, not a shield of
    guilt.

    https://dontgetflocked.com/
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Scott Hoge@nospam@nospam.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Tue Jul 14 16:30:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On 2026-07-14, Schlomo Goldberg <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com>
    wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a conspiracy,
    but because the contents belong exclusively to the sender and
    the receiver.

    That argument appears to be question-begging. Why do we seal the
    envelope? For one, to keep the paper from falling out. But you
    say, additionally, that it's because of /exclusive ownership/,
    not merely of /physical/ property (the letter itself) but of
    /intellectual/ property (what's /written in/ the letter).

    The claim of /intellectual/ property just reduces again to the
    claim of a right to privacy -- thereby begging the question of
    why such a right to privacy exists.

    If someone opened the letter, read the contents, put it back in,
    and sealed it, the harm wouldn't so much be in the intercipient's
    knowledge of the letter as it would be in the tattered, crumpled
    envelope that had to be resealed, which would give the letter an
    ugly appearance.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about
    deciding who gets access to your life. It's a boundary of
    power, not a shield of guilt.

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public) and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of /restorative/
    justice (where instead we just solve the problem).

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about" is
    an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It also
    /disables/ the obtainment of information that is potentially
    useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving process (such as who
    starves from lack of food, where, and why).

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the power
    to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the power to
    know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a crime
    against you.

    That doesn't mean we should just stick a camera in everyone's
    bathrooms on day one. It just means that in an /ideal/ society,
    we would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. No discovered
    misfortune or act would be "humiliating" or "embarrassing"; we
    would just candidly know about each other.

    -- Scott Hoge
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From D. Ray@d@ray to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Tue Jul 14 18:31:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-14, Schlomo Goldberg <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com>
    wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a conspiracy,
    but because the contents belong exclusively to the sender and
    the receiver.

    That argument appears to be question-begging. Why do we seal the
    envelope? For one, to keep the paper from falling out. But you
    say, additionally, that it's because of /exclusive ownership/,
    not merely of /physical/ property (the letter itself) but of
    /intellectual/ property (what's /written in/ the letter).

    The claim of /intellectual/ property just reduces again to the
    claim of a right to privacy -- thereby begging the question of
    why such a right to privacy exists.

    Because none of your business, thatrCOs why.

    If someone opened the letter, read the contents, put it back in,
    and sealed it, the harm wouldn't so much be in the intercipient's
    knowledge of the letter as it would be in the tattered, crumpled
    envelope that had to be resealed, which would give the letter an
    ugly appearance.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about
    deciding who gets access to your life. It's a boundary of
    power, not a shield of guilt.

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public) and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of /restorative/
    justice (where instead we just solve the problem).

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about" is
    an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It also
    /disables/ the obtainment of information that is potentially
    useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving process (such as who
    starves from lack of food, where, and why).

    Pretty sure there is way to find out who starves from lack of food and
    where without sticking a camera in everyonerCOs butt.

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the power
    to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the power to
    know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a crime
    against you.

    No, people already should have power to know rCLwho accessed their liferCY. If itrCOs private citizen, then herCOs committing a crime, and should be prosecuted by a state. If itrCOs not private citizen, then there nothing rCLprivaterCY about their actions, thus there is no expectations of rCLprivacyrCY.
    ThatrCOs why things like FOIA requests exist.

    That doesn't mean we should just stick a camera in everyone's
    bathrooms on day one. It just means that in an /ideal/ society,
    we would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. No discovered
    misfortune or act would be "humiliating" or "embarrassing"; we
    would just candidly know about each other.

    No, in rCLideal societyrCY people wouldnrCOt feel the need to rCLknow about each
    otherrCY because they would be living among other people just like
    themselves. You describing not rCLideal societyrCY, you describing anti-utopia, such as ZamyatinrCOs rCLWerCY where people live in glass houses.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Scott Hoge@nospam@nospam.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Tue Jul 14 19:52:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On 2026-07-14, D Ray <d@ray> wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

    On 2026-07-14, Schlomo Goldberg
    <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com> wrote:

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a
    conspiracy, but because the contents belong exclusively to
    the sender and the receiver.

    That argument appears to be question-begging. Why do we seal
    the envelope? For one, to keep the paper from falling out. But
    you say, additionally, that it's because of /exclusive
    ownership/, not merely of /physical/ property (the letter
    itself) but of /intellectual/ property (what's /written in/
    the letter).

    The claim of /intellectual/ property just reduces again to the
    claim of a right to privacy -- thereby begging the question of
    why such a right to privacy exists.

    Because none of your business, thatrCOs why.

    Points for effort.

    If someone opened the letter, read the contents, put it back
    in, and sealed it, the harm wouldn't so much be in the
    intercipient's knowledge of the letter as it would be in the
    tattered, crumpled envelope that had to be resealed, which
    would give the letter an ugly appearance.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about
    deciding who gets access to your life. It's a boundary of
    power, not a shield of guilt.

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public) and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of
    /restorative/ justice (where instead we just solve the
    problem).

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about"
    is an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It
    also /disables/ the obtainment of information that is
    potentially useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving
    process (such as who starves from lack of food, where, and
    why).

    Pretty sure there is way to find out who starves from lack of
    food and where without sticking a camera in everyonerCOs butt.

    A conceptual distinction should be made between two senses of
    "taking away the right to privacy":

    1. Removing the /universal/ right to privacy, or
    2. Implementing a correspondingly /universal/ right to know.

    To clarify, the sense I intend is (1). A correspondingly
    /universal/ right to know would be a straw man.

    Such a universal right to know -- or, as you rhetorically
    describe it, "sticking a camera in everyone's butt" -- does not
    necessarily inhere in an ideal society, particularly if it
    /limits physical freedom/, which I already guarded against in my
    original claim. Literally sticking a camera in everyone's butt
    would limit the physical freedom to walk with correct, upright
    posture.

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the
    power to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the
    power to know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a
    crime against you.

    No, people already should have power to know rCLwho accessed
    their liferCY. If itrCOs private citizen, then herCOs committing a
    crime, and should be prosecuted by a state. If itrCOs not private
    citizen, then there nothing rCLprivaterCY about their actions, thus
    there is no expectations of rCLprivacyrCY. ThatrCOs why things like
    FOIA requests exist.

    The problem of privacy isn't limited to citizens who "commit
    crimes." It extends to anyone /collectively involved/ in
    potential socioeconomic misfortune, including the "lazy liberals"
    that conservatives scream about, liberals who are /supposedly/
    lazy, but may in fact have reasons justifying their actions.

    That doesn't mean we should just stick a camera in everyone's
    bathrooms on day one. It just means that in an /ideal/
    society, we would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. No
    discovered misfortune or act would be "humiliating" or
    "embarrassing"; we would just candidly know about each other.

    No, in rCLideal societyrCY people wouldnrCOt feel the need to rCLknow
    about each otherrCY because they would be living among other
    people just like themselves.

    What you're describing is /perfect conformity/. Which, if a poor
    little boy in a wheelchair were born, would require tossing him
    into the fire.

    -- Scott Hoge
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From D. Ray@d@ray to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Thu Jul 16 01:31:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-14, D Ray <d@ray> wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

    On 2026-07-14, Schlomo Goldberg
    <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com> wrote:

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a
    conspiracy, but because the contents belong exclusively to
    the sender and the receiver.

    That argument appears to be question-begging. Why do we seal
    the envelope? For one, to keep the paper from falling out. But
    you say, additionally, that it's because of /exclusive
    ownership/, not merely of /physical/ property (the letter
    itself) but of /intellectual/ property (what's /written in/
    the letter).

    The claim of /intellectual/ property just reduces again to the
    claim of a right to privacy -- thereby begging the question of
    why such a right to privacy exists.

    Because none of your business, thatrCOs why.

    Points for effort.

    If someone opened the letter, read the contents, put it back
    in, and sealed it, the harm wouldn't so much be in the
    intercipient's knowledge of the letter as it would be in the
    tattered, crumpled envelope that had to be resealed, which
    would give the letter an ugly appearance.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about
    deciding who gets access to your life. It's a boundary of
    power, not a shield of guilt.

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public) and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of
    /restorative/ justice (where instead we just solve the
    problem).

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about"
    is an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It
    also /disables/ the obtainment of information that is
    potentially useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving
    process (such as who starves from lack of food, where, and
    why).

    Pretty sure there is way to find out who starves from lack of
    food and where without sticking a camera in everyonerCOs butt.

    A conceptual distinction should be made between two senses of
    "taking away the right to privacy":

    1. Removing the /universal/ right to privacy, or
    2. Implementing a correspondingly /universal/ right to know.

    To clarify, the sense I intend is (1). A correspondingly
    /universal/ right to know would be a straw man.

    Such a universal right to know -- or, as you rhetorically
    describe it, "sticking a camera in everyone's butt" -- does not
    necessarily inhere in an ideal society, particularly if it
    /limits physical freedom/, which I already guarded against in my
    original claim. Literally sticking a camera in everyone's butt
    would limit the physical freedom to walk with correct, upright
    posture.

    Are you AI?

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the
    power to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the
    power to know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a
    crime against you.

    No, people already should have power to know rCLwho accessed
    their liferCY. If itrCOs private citizen, then herCOs committing a
    crime, and should be prosecuted by a state. If itrCOs not private
    citizen, then there nothing rCLprivaterCY about their actions, thus
    there is no expectations of rCLprivacyrCY. ThatrCOs why things like
    FOIA requests exist.

    The problem of privacy isn't limited to citizens who "commit
    crimes." It extends to anyone /collectively involved/ in
    potential socioeconomic misfortune, including the "lazy liberals"
    that conservatives scream about, liberals who are /supposedly/
    lazy, but may in fact have reasons justifying their actions.

    And yourCOre going with that exactly where?

    That doesn't mean we should just stick a camera in everyone's
    bathrooms on day one. It just means that in an /ideal/
    society, we would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. No
    discovered misfortune or act would be "humiliating" or
    "embarrassing"; we would just candidly know about each other.

    No, in rCLideal societyrCY people wouldnrCOt feel the need to rCLknow
    about each otherrCY because they would be living among other
    people just like themselves.

    What you're describing is /perfect conformity/. Which, if a poor
    little boy in a wheelchair were born, would require tossing him
    into the fire.

    No, thatrCOs a lie. I guess I also should mention that boyrCOs wheelchair during pregnancy would limit the physical freedom of mother to walk with correct, upright posture.

    rCLPerfect conformityrCY is what *you* call rCLideal societyrCY - with glass houses, where there is rCLnothing to fear and nothing to hiderCY.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Governor Swill@governor.swill@gmail.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Thu Jul 16 03:39:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On Tue, 14 Jul 2026 08:35:28 -0000 (UTC), Schlomo Goldberg wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    On 2026-07-07, Flocked Up <noreply@mixmin.net> wrote:

    [...]

    From there, police are able to expand the warrant and look
    deeper into specific accounts and addresses to get identity
    information.

    The Supreme Court is making it harder or even impossible to get
    them. The justices ruled that these warrants could constitute
    an unreasonable search and seizure, because oftentimes
    citizens' data is scooped up and investigated even if they have
    no connection to the crime.

    "I don't believe my cell number being found in a particular
    location is particularly troublesome to me if I haven't
    committed any crimes," McDonald said.

    But just because someone else committed a crime, it doesn't
    mean that there is no longer a right to privacy, Benza said.

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a conspiracy, but
    because the contents belong exclusively to the sender and the receiver.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about deciding who
    gets access to your life. It's a boundary of power, not a shield of
    guilt.

    https://dontgetflocked.com/

    Butthole COVID Sweeps US!
    <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJwjvNYKuyY>
    --
    <https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bI2CA3XOSk0>

    So now that the idiot in chief has bombed Iran
    and shut down Hormuz *again* . . .

    . . . you guys finally willing to admit voting for that
    rat bastard was a mistake?

    012020298647
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Schlomo Goldberg@schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Thu Jul 16 11:58:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    On 2026-07-14, Schlomo Goldberg <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com>
    wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    Enough with this "right to privacy."

    We seal envelopes not because the letter contains a conspiracy,
    but because the contents belong exclusively to the sender and
    the receiver.

    That argument appears to be question-begging. Why do we seal the
    envelope? For one, to keep the paper from falling out. But you
    say, additionally, that it's because of /exclusive ownership/,
    not merely of /physical/ property (the letter itself) but of
    /intellectual/ property (what's /written in/ the letter).

    The claim of /intellectual/ property just reduces again to the
    claim of a right to privacy -- thereby begging the question of
    why such a right to privacy exists.

    If someone opened the letter, read the contents, put it back in,
    and sealed it, the harm wouldn't so much be in the intercipient's
    knowledge of the letter as it would be in the tattered, crumpled
    envelope that had to be resealed, which would give the letter an
    ugly appearance.

    I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.

    The "nothing to hide" argument is pure corporate/state
    propaganda. Privacy isn't about hiding a crime; it's about
    deciding who gets access to your life. It's a boundary of
    power, not a shield of guilt.

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public)

    Wild imagination you have.

    and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of /restorative/
    justice (where instead we just solve the problem).

    And that "solving", of course, won't involve stomping by "a bigger, more attractive male"?

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about" is
    an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It also
    /disables/ the obtainment of information that is potentially
    useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving process (such as who
    starves from lack of food, where, and why).

    You can try just asking people if they're starving. Or you think they
    won't tell you due to privacy?

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the power
    to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the power to
    know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a crime
    against you.

    No, it does not. I don't remeber Flock providing public access to their cameras, even though they services are already paid for by "public
    servants" such as law enforcement.

    That doesn't mean we should just stick a camera in everyone's
    bathrooms on day one. It just means that in an /ideal/ society,
    we would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. No discovered
    misfortune or act would be "humiliating" or "embarrassing"; we
    would just candidly know about each other.

    Amazing. Is there something else about "ideal society" you would like to
    share with the world?
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Scott Hoge@nospam@nospam.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Thu Jul 16 12:21:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On 2026-07-16, D Ray <d@ray> wrote:

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

    A conceptual distinction should be made between two senses of
    "taking away the right to privacy":

    1. Removing the /universal/ right to privacy, or
    2. Implementing a correspondingly /universal/ right to know.

    To clarify, the sense I intend is (1). A correspondingly
    /universal/ right to know would be a straw man.

    Such a universal right to know -- or, as you rhetorically
    describe it, "sticking a camera in everyone's butt" -- does
    not necessarily inhere in an ideal society, particularly if it
    /limits physical freedom/, which I already guarded against in
    my original claim. Literally sticking a camera in everyone's
    butt would limit the physical freedom to walk with correct,
    upright posture.

    Are you AI?

    No, I'm a real person with a real major in philosophy. I study
    Friedrich Nietzsche, Arthur Schopenhauer, and Immanuel Kant.

    The problem of privacy isn't limited to citizens who "commit
    crimes." It extends to anyone /collectively involved/ in
    potential socioeconomic misfortune, including the "lazy liberals"
    that conservatives scream about, liberals who are /supposedly/
    lazy, but may in fact have reasons justifying their actions.

    And yourCOre going with that exactly where?

    /Collective involvement/ in potential socioeconomic misfortunate,
    such as a drop in food availability due to overconsumption and
    underwork, can be analyzed through /collective monitoring/. If we
    know where all the so-called "lazy liberals" are, what they're
    doing, and why, then we can use that information to solve the
    problem constructively and to thereby prevent starvation of the
    homeless.

    Then conservatives can stop bitching and moaning about what a
    "burden on society" we liberals are.

    No, in rCLideal societyrCY people wouldnrCOt feel the need to rCLknow
    about each otherrCY because they would be living among other
    people just like themselves.

    What you're describing is /perfect conformity/. Which, if a
    poor little boy in a wheelchair were born, would require
    tossing him into the fire.

    No, thatrCOs a lie. I guess I also should mention that boyrCOs
    wheelchair during pregnancy would limit the physical freedom of
    mother to walk with correct, upright posture.

    That's beside the point. I hoped it would be /plainly obvious/
    that by the "birth of a kid in a wheelchair," I meant the birth
    of someone with a congenital disability.

    rCLPerfect conformityrCY is what *you* call rCLideal societyrCY - with glass houses, where there is rCLnothing to fear and nothing to hiderCY.

    Your "glass house" metaphor carries with it the suggestion that
    the house /not only/ permits external observation without a right
    to privacy, but /also/ can be easily shattered. It falsely
    depicts my view as being weaker than it actually is.

    It doesn't imply perfect conformity either. People in glass
    houses can look different.

    -- Scott Hoge
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Scott Hoge@nospam@nospam.com to alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism.community,alt.privacy,sac.politics,talk.politics.guns on Thu Jul 16 14:12:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.privacy

    On 2026-07-16, Schlomo Goldberg <schlomo.goldberg@mailinator.com>
    wrote:

    [...]

    Scott Hoge <nospam@nospam.com> writes:

    "Access to one's life," "power," and "guilt" are, at best,
    incomplete concepts. The concept of /guilt/, additionally, has
    signification only within a system of /retributive/ justice
    (where the "guilty man" is stomped on by a bigger, more
    attractive male for the amusement of the public) and may
    disappear, and disappear entirely, in a system of
    /restorative/ justice (where instead we just solve the
    problem).

    And that "solving", of course, won't involve stomping by "a
    bigger, more attractive male"?

    Not necessarily. That's just what stupid people take pleasure in
    when someone is "proven guilty."

    You say, "Privacy isn't about hiding a crime." Here, "about"
    is an obfuscating term. Privacy /enables/ hiding a crime. It
    also /disables/ the obtainment of information that is
    potentially useful in the socioeconomic problem-solving
    process (such as who starves from lack of food, where, and
    why).

    You can try just asking people if they're starving. Or you
    think they won't tell you due to privacy?

    Asking people /encountered in the course of a day/ whether
    they're starving, and discovering that they're not, won't answer
    whether /anyone else/ may be starving. Nor will it fully explain
    /why/ they're starving.

    Surveillance would remedy this by providing more information
    about resource consumption -- whether by the "lazy liberals"
    decried by conservatives, or by the red-meat-eating,
    gasoline-chugging conservatives themselves.

    "Power," and the boundary thereof, inheres not only in the
    possessor of private information, but in those who have the
    power to know. Removing the right to privacy grants you the
    power to know who "accessed your life" in his commission of a
    crime against you.

    No, it does not. I don't remeber Flock providing public access
    to their cameras, even though they services are already paid
    for by "public servants" such as law enforcement.

    I'll soften my statement. Removing the right to privacy grants
    you the /possibility/ to know who "accessed your life" (assuming
    possibility is broader in extent than power).

    That said, we're not talking about a band of cowardly, stupid,
    weak-minded, poorly-reasoning military thugs monitoring you "from
    above." We're talking about mutual access between adults of equal
    dignity and intellectual respect. So yes, Flock /might/ have to
    let the public view the footage as well.

    -- Scott Hoge
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2