From Newsgroup: alt.philosophy.taoism
aye posted:
Mahjong fan posted:
aye posted:
Mahjong fan posted:
The hexagram ...
It is uncertain to me if hexagrams are Taoist.
Once upon a time, historically speaking, historians
at the time of the Han dynasty created the Chia.
Now spelled, Jia, presumably to distinguish,
from a scholarly pov, the Hundred Schools
as compared to other types of thinking.
Later on, some authors went so far
as to edit the earlier texts, e.g. Kuo Hsiang
who was said to have removed material from the Chuang-tzu.
So now, the Daoist, Dao Jia, text, the Zhuangzi
received from Guo Xiang is probably not as it was,
having had various and sundry portions edited out.
Given a sense of TTC 38
Here is the translation of the provided text:
**1. Historical Origin: It is "pre-Daoist," not "non-Daoist."**
Well, if prognostication occurs after Dao is lost,
long after De is lost as well, the to say it is
not non-Daoist could be said if a bot says so.
Daoism could be called a fiction at first.
From shamanism to folk religion, Dao Jia never was.
That was, until scholars created what is now known as Taoist Philosophy.
Philosophy and religion can be viewed in Ways.
Whether either contains the other or is contained
could be a matter of discussion among people.
If Daoism is only the religion, what is its philosophy.
If the philosophy is being considered, was it always as such.
When Han historians coined the term Dao Jia,
what was meant and if DDJ 38 refers to using
a technique for prognostication, oracles, etc.,
why talk about the flower and the fruit?
... snip ...
* **Integration with Cosmology:** Daoist scholars
(especially later religious Daoism)
Hence, a distinction exists. Philosophical Daoism
would be, technically, the topic of this group.
Yet, a description suggests, all aspects of Daoism.
That was a quibble decades ago, in the 1990s.
combined the eight-trigram system of the *Yijing*
with the generative theory of "the Dao produces One,
One produces Two, Two produces Three, and Three produces all things,"
DDJ 40, or DDJ 42. I forget which is which.
The other speaks of wan wu emerging from Yu
and Yu being born of Wu naturally.
using the hexagrams to depict the process of the Dao
transforming and generating the myriad things.
Techniques vary.
I'm reminded of Zhuangzi when he was fishing
and was asked if he'd help govern the land.
He spoke to the emissaries about the shell
of a tortoise which was used to tell of things.
His conclusion was he'd rather be alive
and fishing on the banks of a muddy river
than be like that shell at court.
* **Internal Alchemy Practice:** In Daoist Neidan (internal alchemy),
Internal alchemy is fun, imo. Transformations
of consciousness. Self realizations and such.
the hexagrams of the *Yijing* (such as Kan and Li, Qian and Kun)
are used to describe the movement of vital energy (Qi)
and essence within the human body, as well as the
firing process of alchemical refinement.
As a yogi, my preference is for knowing
through meditation, expanding consciousness.
Hexagrams aren't used by me and yet could be
effective for some so-called individuals.
At this point, the hexagrams become a precise operational model.
Maybe. To call them, precise, could be an overstatement.
Precision reminds me of science. I doubt if hexagrams are scientific.
If every consultation results in a different hexagram
than the experiment isn't able to be repeated, precisely.
Intuition isn't very precise
given my own experiences.
**4. Returning to *Tao Te Ching*, Chapter 38:
Ah yes. Use oracles if Dao and De are lost.
Why There's No Conflict**
If there is no conflict, then the list persists.
The "loss" issue you are concerned about has an ingenious solution
within Daoist thought:
Perhaps as ingenious or disingenuous as the rest of the list.
* **Tool and Purpose:** In the eyes of one who has attained the Dao,
the hexagrams are indeed a product of "loss."
Okay.
But those who are "lost" need a "map" to guide the way.
Sounds like a rationalization to me.
What about the rest of the list?
Are they part of the map, to return?
Near the end of the map-list is a saying about folly.
* **Borrow the False to Cultivate the True (Jie Jia Xiu Zhen):**
Daoism believes that people can use the hexagrams, which are "false" (limited symbols), to comprehend the "true" (the unlimited "Dao").
Daoism believes?
Maybe some Daoists believe.
If using hexagrams is folly,
if that's what DDJ 38 is saying,
then perhaps a fool who persists
in folly might be wise at times.
Once you have understood the principles of change through the hexagrams, you can ultimately reach the state where "those who are good at the *Yijing*
do not divine" (Shan Yi Zhe Bu Bu) rCo no longer relying on the hexagrams, because you are already walking in harmony with the Dao.
That makes sense. Practice until perfection arrives.
Yet what of the rest of the list.
**Conclusion**
Therefore, it cannot be said that the *Yijing* is unrelated to Daoism.
Anything can be said to be, related, to Daoism.
Yet a few bu-dao are listed in the Dao De Jing.
A more accurate statement is:
**The *Yijing* is the root; Daoism (and Confucianism) are the trees.**
I disagree as to accuracy.
The root of Daoism is Dao.
* **The Root:** Provided the basic framework of "Yin-Yang,"
"change," and "image-number" (Xiang Shu).
Yin and yang are mentioned once in the DDJ.
DDJ 2 has a list of its own. To say they,
the ideas on the list, are all yin/yang
could be said. But that isn't what is said.
* **Daoism:** Watered it
with the spiritual nutrients of "naturalness" (Zi Ran),
"non-action" (Wu Wei), and "emptiness-stillness" (Xu Jing),
allowing this tree to blossom with unique philosophical flowers.
If Daoism is defined as Dao Jiao, the religion, okay.
If Daoism means, Dao Jia, then perhaps it's the other Way a round.
Daoism's attitude towards the *Yijing* is a kind of "using its force": acknowledging it as ancient wisdom, but needing to harness it
with the higher level of the "Dao."
Religions have their features.
Philosophies have their bugs.
As Zhuangzi said: "The fish trap exists because of the fish;
once you've gotten the fish, you can forget the trap."
Yes. Words have many meanings.
The hexagrams are the "trap," and the "Dao" is the fish.
If hexagrams work for someone, that's great. If that's their Dao.
Dao are dao. Whether any is Chang Dao
could be a matter of definitions or semantics
with contexts being rulers.
- thanks! Cheers!
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