• Raymond Williams's [Keywords]

    From HenHanna@HenHanna@dev.null to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Mon Oct 28 22:54:11 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature] was used differently in
    the past?

    Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and
    social dimensions.

    Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the
    physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________


    Here are some key examples from Raymond Williams's Keywords
    that illustrate his observations about the historical usage of specific
    terms:

    ______________Culture:

    Original Meaning: Initially related to agriculture (from the Latin
    cultura), referring to the cultivation of the earth.

    Evolution: Over time, it expanded to include the arts, intellectual achievements, and the overall way of life of a society.


    ______________Democracy:

    Historical Context: Originally referred to the rule of the people in
    ancient Greece.

    Current Usage: The term has evolved to encompass various forms of governance, often associated with rights, representation, and
    participation, reflecting struggles for civil rights and social justice.


    ______________Nature:

    Etymology: Traditionally related to the inherent qualities or essence
    of things.

    Shift: In contemporary usage, it often refers specifically to the
    physical environment, separating it from human culture, which contrasts
    with its broader historical interpretation.


    ______________Class:

    Initial Connotation: Originally denoted a group or category based on
    shared characteristics.

    Modern Understanding: The term has developed to encompass
    socio-economic divisions and conflicts, reflecting the dynamics of
    power, privilege, and identity in society.


    ______________Industry:

    Early Use: Initially referred to diligence and hard work.

    Contemporary Meaning: Now primarily associated with manufacturing
    and economic production, often linked to discussions of labor,
    capitalism, and economic structures.


    ______________Community:

    Original Sense: Related to common ownership or shared interests.

    Current Interpretation: The concept has become more complex, often reflecting various social and cultural identities, as well as issues of belonging and exclusion.


    ______________Freedom:

    Historical Roots: Originally linked to the idea of being free from
    bondage or constraint.

    Modern Nuances: Today, it encompasses various dimensions,
    including political rights, personal autonomy, and economic freedom, highlighting ongoing struggles and differing interpretations.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Mon Oct 28 19:50:19 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On 10/28/2024 4:54 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in
    the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist, discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________


    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a Here are some key examples from-a-a Raymond Williams's-a Keywords
    that illustrate his observations about the historical usage of specific terms:

    ______________Culture:

    Original Meaning: Initially related to agriculture (from the Latin
    cultura), referring to the cultivation of the earth.

    Evolution:-a-a-a Over time, it expanded to include the arts, intellectual achievements, and the overall way of life of a society.


    ______________Democracy:

    Historical Context:-a-a-a Originally referred to the rule of the people in ancient Greece.

    Current Usage:-a-a-a-a-a The term has evolved to encompass various forms of governance, often associated with rights, representation, and
    participation, reflecting struggles for civil rights and social justice.


    ______________Nature:

    Etymology:-a-a-a Traditionally related to the inherent qualities or essence of things.

    Shift:-a-a-a-a In contemporary usage, it often refers specifically to the physical environment, separating it from human culture, which contrasts
    with its broader historical interpretation.


    ______________Class:

    Initial Connotation:-a-a-a-a Originally denoted a group or category based on shared characteristics.

    Modern Understanding:-a-a-a-a The term has developed to encompass socio-economic divisions and conflicts, reflecting the dynamics of
    power, privilege, and identity in society.


    ______________Industry:

    Early Use:-a-a-a Initially referred to diligence and hard work.

    Contemporary Meaning:-a-a-a-a-a-a Now primarily associated with manufacturing and economic production, often linked to discussions of labor,
    capitalism, and economic structures.


    ______________Community:

    Original Sense:-a-a-a-a Related to common ownership or shared interests.

    Current Interpretation:-a-a-a-a-a The concept has become more complex, often reflecting various social and cultural identities, as well as issues of belonging and exclusion.


    ______________Freedom:

    Historical Roots:-a-a-a-a Originally linked to the idea of being free from bondage or constraint.

    Modern Nuances:-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Today, it encompasses various dimensions, including political rights, personal autonomy, and economic freedom, highlighting ongoing struggles and differing interpretations.

    I believe that at sometime in the past, the term implied/included human
    waste products (toilet) and their production. I seem to remember this
    usage in some things I have read but can't recall specific examples.
    --
    Jeff Barnett

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From HenHanna@HenHanna@dev.null to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Tue Oct 29 02:21:38 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 1:50:19 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 4:54 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in
    the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist, >> discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and
    social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the
    physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________


    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a Here are some key examples from-a-a Raymond Williams's-a Keywords
    that illustrate his observations about the historical usage of specific
    terms:

    ______________Culture:

    Original Meaning: Initially related to agriculture (from the Latin
    cultura), referring to the cultivation of the earth.

    Evolution:-a-a-a Over time, it expanded to include the arts, intellectual
    achievements, and the overall way of life of a society.


    ______________Democracy:

    Historical Context:-a-a-a Originally referred to the rule of the people in >> ancient Greece.

    Current Usage:-a-a-a-a-a The term has evolved to encompass various forms of >> governance, often associated with rights, representation, and
    participation, reflecting struggles for civil rights and social justice.


    ______________Nature:

    Etymology:-a-a-a Traditionally related to the inherent qualities or essence >> of things.

    Shift:-a-a-a-a In contemporary usage, it often refers specifically to the
    physical environment, separating it from human culture, which contrasts
    with its broader historical interpretation.


    ______________Class:

    Initial Connotation:-a-a-a-a Originally denoted a group or category based on >> shared characteristics.

    Modern Understanding:-a-a-a-a The term has developed to encompass
    socio-economic divisions and conflicts, reflecting the dynamics of
    power, privilege, and identity in society.


    ______________Industry:

    Early Use:-a-a-a Initially referred to diligence and hard work.

    Contemporary Meaning:-a-a-a-a-a-a Now primarily associated with manufacturing
    and economic production, often linked to discussions of labor,
    capitalism, and economic structures.


    ______________Community:

    Original Sense:-a-a-a-a Related to common ownership or shared interests.

    Current Interpretation:-a-a-a-a-a The concept has become more complex, often >> reflecting various social and cultural identities, as well as issues of
    belonging and exclusion.


    ______________Freedom:

    Historical Roots:-a-a-a-a Originally linked to the idea of being free from >> bondage or constraint.

    Modern Nuances:-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Today, it encompasses various dimensions,
    including political rights, personal autonomy, and economic freedom,
    highlighting ongoing struggles and differing interpretations.



    I believe that at sometime in the past, the term implied/included human
    waste products (toilet) and their production. I seem to remember this
    usage in some things I have read but can't recall specific examples.
    --
    Jeff Barnett



    re: free, freedom -- my AI(assistant) doesn't think so.



    ____________ >>> The term "free" has never directly meant urination or defecation in a formal sense. However, it may have been used in
    certain contexts or euphemisms related to bodily functions. The word
    "free" generally denotes liberation or lack of restriction.

    The closest related term would be "relief," which can
    imply the act of relieving oneself.

    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCBut "free" itself has not been historically linked to those
    specific bodily functions.pCCpCCpCCpCC It primarily conveys ideas of freedom, absence of cost, or lack of constraints.


    ___________________________

    Raymond Williams's [Keywords] --- i had this book, but pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCmaybe i was too young, when i tried to read it.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From HenHanna@HenHanna@dev.null to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Tue Oct 29 19:49:57 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:46:48 +0000, HenHanna wrote:

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:02:48 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:

    On 29/10/2024 11:54 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in
    the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist, >>> discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and >>> social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the >>> physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________






    It's a great book -- I recommended it to generations of students as a
    model of how to tell the history of a word's meanings. Much of Williams'
    raw material can be found in OED's entries, but he weaves it masterfully
    into a narrative, with very sparing use of actual citations.
    Unfortunately AI reduces it all to mulch.






    Mulch, or Bilge?


    More or more, we can only absorb sound-bites
    ... or written text
    in 140- or 280-char units.


    ___________________

    The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

    The Atlantic
    https://www.theatlantic.com
    Oct 1, 2024 rCo In a recent EdWeek Research Center survey of
    about 300 third-to-eighth-grade educators, only 17 percent said they primarily teach whole texts.

    ...........

    But the student told Dames that, at her public high school, she had
    never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned
    excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to
    cover.

    ...........


    Twenty years ago, DamesrCOs classes had no problem engaging in
    sophisticated discussions of Pride and Prejudice one week and Crime and Punishment the next.

    ...........


    Anthony Grafton, a Princeton historian, said his students arrive on
    campus with a narrower vocabulary and less understanding of language
    than they used to have.



    Daniel Shore, the chair of GeorgetownrCOs English department, told me that
    his students have trouble staying focused on even a sonnet.


    ----------- Sonnets are often Really Boring !!!
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ed Cryer@ed@somewhere.in.the.uk to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Tue Oct 29 20:59:08 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:46:48 +0000, HenHanna wrote:

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:02:48 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:

    On 29/10/2024 11:54 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in >>>> the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over >>>> time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a >>>> broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the
    idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral
    and
    social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the >>>> physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________






    It's a great book -- I recommended it to generations of students as a
    model of how to tell the history of a word's meanings. Much of Williams' >>> raw material can be found in OED's entries, but he weaves it masterfully >>> into a narrative, with very sparing use of actual citations.
    Unfortunately AI reduces it all to mulch.






    Mulch,-a or-a Bilge?


    More or more,-a-a we can only absorb-a sound-bites
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ... or written text
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a in 140- or 280-char-a units.


    ___________________

    The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

    The Atlantic
    https://www.theatlantic.com
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Oct 1, 2024 rCo In a recent EdWeek Research Center survey of
    about 300 third-to-eighth-grade educators, only 17 percent said they
    primarily teach whole texts.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........

    But the student told Dames that, at her public high school, she had
    never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned
    excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to
    cover.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    -aTwenty years ago, DamesrCOs classes had no problem engaging in
    sophisticated discussions of Pride and Prejudice one week and Crime and
    Punishment the next.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    Anthony Grafton, a Princeton historian, said his students arrive on
    campus with a narrower vocabulary and less understanding of language
    than they used to have.



    Daniel Shore, the chair of GeorgetownrCOs English department, told me that his students have trouble staying focused on even a sonnet.


    -a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!

    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of
    Shelley's?

    I met a traveller from an antique land,
    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
    And on the pedestal, these words appear:
    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ed Cryer@ed@somewhere.in.the.uk to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Tue Oct 29 21:24:27 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    Ed Cryer wrote:
    HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:46:48 +0000, HenHanna wrote:

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:02:48 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:

    On 29/10/2024 11:54 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in >>>>> the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over >>>>> time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally
    encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the >>>>> essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the
    idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including
    moral and
    social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the
    physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________






    It's a great book -- I recommended it to generations of students as a
    model of how to tell the history of a word's meanings. Much of
    Williams'
    raw material can be found in OED's entries, but he weaves it
    masterfully
    into a narrative, with very sparing use of actual citations.
    Unfortunately AI reduces it all to mulch.






    Mulch,-a or-a Bilge?


    More or more,-a-a we can only absorb-a sound-bites
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ... or written text
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a in 140- or 280-char-a units.


    ___________________

    The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

    The Atlantic
    https://www.theatlantic.com
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Oct 1, 2024 rCo In a recent EdWeek Research Center survey of
    about 300 third-to-eighth-grade educators, only 17 percent said they
    primarily teach whole texts.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........

    But the student told Dames that, at her public high school, she had
    never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned
    excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to
    cover.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    -aTwenty years ago, DamesrCOs classes had no problem engaging in
    sophisticated discussions of Pride and Prejudice one week and Crime and
    Punishment the next.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    Anthony Grafton, a Princeton historian, said his students arrive on
    campus with a narrower vocabulary and less understanding of language
    than they used to have.



    Daniel Shore, the chair of GeorgetownrCOs English department, told me that >> his students have trouble staying focused on even a sonnet.


    -a-a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!

    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of Shelley's?

    I met a traveller from an antique land,
    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
    And on the pedestal, these words appear:
    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.



    Those old, Romantic poems expand the mind. They lead it outwards and
    upwards.
    Compare them with something like;
    April is the cruellest month, breeding
    Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
    Memory and desire, stirring
    Dull roots with spring rain.

    That's claustrophobic; shut in and limited.

    Another from the days of Shelley, by Byron;
    The isles of Greece, the Isles of Greece!
    Where burning Sappho loved and sung,
    Where grew the arts of war and peace,
    Where Delos rose, and Phoebus sprung!

    Outgoing; expansive; flowering.

    Ed
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Tue Oct 29 15:32:22 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On 10/28/2024 8:21 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 1:50:19 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 4:54 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in
    the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and >>> social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the >>> physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________


    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Here are some key examples from-a-a Raymond Williams's-a Keywords
    that illustrate his observations about the historical usage of specific
    terms:

    ______________Culture:

    Original Meaning: Initially related to agriculture (from the Latin
    cultura), referring to the cultivation of the earth.

    Evolution:-a-a-a Over time, it expanded to include the arts, intellectual >>> achievements, and the overall way of life of a society.


    ______________Democracy:

    Historical Context:-a-a-a Originally referred to the rule of the people in >>> ancient Greece.

    Current Usage:-a-a-a-a-a The term has evolved to encompass various forms of >>> governance, often associated with rights, representation, and
    participation, reflecting struggles for civil rights and social justice. >>>

    ______________Nature:

    Etymology:-a-a-a Traditionally related to the inherent qualities or essence >>> of things.

    Shift:-a-a-a-a In contemporary usage, it often refers specifically to the >>> physical environment, separating it from human culture, which contrasts
    with its broader historical interpretation.


    ______________Class:

    Initial Connotation:-a-a-a-a Originally denoted a group or category based on
    shared characteristics.

    Modern Understanding:-a-a-a-a The term has developed to encompass
    socio-economic divisions and conflicts, reflecting the dynamics of
    power, privilege, and identity in society.


    ______________Industry:

    Early Use:-a-a-a Initially referred to diligence and hard work.

    Contemporary Meaning:-a-a-a-a-a-a Now primarily associated with manufacturing
    and economic production, often linked to discussions of labor,
    capitalism, and economic structures.


    ______________Community:

    Original Sense:-a-a-a-a Related to common ownership or shared interests. >>>
    Current Interpretation:-a-a-a-a-a The concept has become more complex, often
    reflecting various social and cultural identities, as well as issues of
    belonging and exclusion.


    ______________Freedom:

    Historical Roots:-a-a-a-a Originally linked to the idea of being free from >>> bondage or constraint.

    Modern Nuances:-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Today, it encompasses various dimensions,
    including political rights, personal autonomy, and economic freedom,
    highlighting ongoing struggles and differing interpretations.



    I believe that at sometime in the past, the term implied/included human
    waste products (toilet) and their production. I seem to remember this
    usage in some things I have read but can't recall specific examples.
    --
    Jeff Barnett



    re:-a free,-a freedom-a -- my AI(assistant) doesn't think so.



    ____________ >>>-a The term "free" has never directly meant urination or defecation in a formal sense.-a-a-a-a-a-a-a However, it may have been used in certain contexts or euphemisms related to bodily functions. The word
    "free" generally denotes liberation or lack of restriction.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a The closest related term would be "relief," which can
    imply the act of relieving oneself.

    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCBut "free" itself has not been historically linked to those
    specific bodily functions.pCCpCCpCCpCC It primarily conveys ideas of freedom, absence of cost, or lack of constraints.


    ___________________________

    Raymond Williams's [Keywords] --- i had this book, but pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCmaybe-a i was-a too young,-a when i tried to read it.

    Sorry - my above attempted contribution was for "nature". I inserted
    remarks in the wrong place. Sorry.
    --
    Jeff Barnett
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ed Cryer@ed@somewhere.in.the.uk to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Wed Oct 30 10:36:08 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in
    the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist, discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over
    time.


    <snipped>

    Did Raymond Williams' analysis cover other languages and cultures? Or
    was it merely English usage? How far back in time did he go?

    Ed

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From HenHanna@HenHanna@dev.null to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Wed Oct 30 17:54:59 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:59:08 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote:

    HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 19:46:48 +0000, HenHanna wrote:

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 11:02:48 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:

    On 29/10/2024 11:54 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in >>>>> the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over >>>>> time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a >>>>> broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the >>>>> essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the
    idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral >>>>> and
    social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the
    physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________






    It's a great book -- I recommended it to generations of students as a
    model of how to tell the history of a word's meanings. Much of Williams' >>>> raw material can be found in OED's entries, but he weaves it masterfully >>>> into a narrative, with very sparing use of actual citations.
    Unfortunately AI reduces it all to mulch.






    Mulch,-a or-a Bilge?


    More or more,-a-a we can only absorb-a sound-bites
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ... or written text
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a in 140- or 280-char-a units.


    ___________________

    The Elite College Students Who Can't Read Books

    The Atlantic
    https://www.theatlantic.com
    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Oct 1, 2024 rCo In a recent EdWeek Research Center survey of
    about 300 third-to-eighth-grade educators, only 17 percent said they
    primarily teach whole texts.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........

    But the student told Dames that, at her public high school, she had
    never been required to read an entire book. She had been assigned
    excerpts, poetry, and news articles, but not a single book cover to
    cover.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    -aTwenty years ago, DamesrCOs classes had no problem engaging in
    sophisticated discussions of Pride and Prejudice one week and Crime and
    Punishment the next.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a ...........


    Anthony Grafton, a Princeton historian, said his students arrive on
    campus with a narrower vocabulary and less understanding of language
    than they used to have.



    Daniel Shore, the chair of GeorgetownrCOs English department, told me that >> his students have trouble staying focused on even a sonnet.


    -a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!

    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of Shelley's?

    I met a traveller from an antique land,
    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone
    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
    And on the pedestal, these words appear:
    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
    The lone and level sands stretch far away.


    That would be an exception....

    a rare Sonnet to be recited in a recent SciFi movie.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From HenHanna@HenHanna@dev.null to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Wed Oct 30 18:03:52 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 21:32:22 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 8:21 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 1:50:19 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 4:54 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in >>>> the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over >>>> time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally encompassed a >>>> broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the
    essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including moral and >>>> social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the >>>> physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________ .................



    I believe that at sometime in the past, the term implied/included human
    waste products (toilet) and their production. I seem to remember this
    usage in some things I have read but can't recall specific examples.
    --
    Jeff Barnett



    re:-a free,-a freedom-a -- my AI(assistant) doesn't think so.



    ____________ >>>-a The term "free" has never directly meant urination or
    defecation in a formal sense.-a-a-a-a-a-a-a However, it may have been used in
    certain contexts or euphemisms related to bodily functions. The word
    "free" generally denotes liberation or lack of restriction.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a The closest related term would be "relief," which can
    imply the act of relieving oneself.

    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCBut "free" itself has not been historically linked to those
    specific bodily functions.pCCpCCpCCpCC It primarily conveys ideas of freedom,
    absence of cost, or lack of constraints.


    ___________________________

    Raymond Williams's [Keywords] --- i had this book, but
    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCmaybe-a i was-a too young,-a when i tried to read it.

    Sorry - my above attempted contribution was for "nature". I inserted
    remarks in the wrong place. Sorry.
    --
    Jeff Barnett


    __________________

    my AI(assistant) agrees with that... but can't give me a good example.


    >>> In Hamlet, there are several instances where "nature"
    is used in a context that evokes human instincts and bodily realities.
    One notable passage is from Act 1, Scene 2, where Hamlet speaks about
    the "unweeded garden," which can suggest a neglect of natural functions
    and the state of humanity:


    "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
    When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
    Must give us pauserCothere's the respect
    That makes calamity of so long life."



    From Act 1, Scene 2:

    "O, that this too too solid flesh would melt,
    Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew!
    Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
    His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
    How weary, stale, flat, and profitless
    Seem to me all the uses of this world!
    Fie on't! O, fie! 'tis an unweeded garden
    That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
    Possess it merely."
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Barnett@jbb@notatt.com to sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.language.latin on Wed Oct 30 15:06:43 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On 10/30/2024 12:03 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 21:32:22 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 8:21 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 1:50:19 +0000, Jeff Barnett wrote:

    On 10/28/2024 4:54 PM, HenHanna wrote:
    Raymond Williams said that the word [nature]-a was used differently in >>>>> the past?

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Yes, Raymond Williams, a prominent cultural theorist,
    discussed the concept of "nature" and how its meaning has evolved over >>>>> time.

    In his work, particularly in Keywords: A Vocabulary of Culture and
    Society, Williams noted that the word "nature" originally
    encompassed a
    broader range of meanings, including one's inherent qualities and the >>>>> essence of a thing.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Historically, "nature" was often associated with the
    idea of
    the natural world and human beings' place within it, including
    moral and
    social dimensions.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Over time, the term became more narrowly focused on the
    physical environment and the biological aspects of life, often
    separating human culture from the natural world.

    ________________________________-a-a .................



    I believe that at sometime in the past, the term implied/included human >>>> waste products (toilet) and their production. I seem to remember this
    usage in some things I have read but can't recall specific examples.
    --
    Jeff Barnett



    re:-a free,-a freedom-a -- my AI(assistant) doesn't think so.



    ____________ >>>-a The term "free" has never directly meant urination or >>> defecation in a formal sense.-a-a-a-a-a-a-a However, it may have been used in
    certain contexts or euphemisms related to bodily functions. The word
    "free" generally denotes liberation or lack of restriction.

    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a The closest related term would be "relief," which can
    imply the act of relieving oneself.

    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCBut "free" itself has not been historically linked to >>> those
    specific bodily functions.pCCpCCpCCpCC It primarily conveys ideas of
    freedom,
    absence of cost, or lack of constraints.


    ___________________________

    Raymond Williams's [Keywords] --- i had this book, but
    pCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCpCCmaybe-a i was-a too young,-a when i tried to read it.

    Sorry - my above attempted contribution was for "nature". I inserted
    remarks in the wrong place. Sorry.
    --
    Jeff Barnett


    __________________

    my AI(assistant)-a agrees with that...-a but can't give me a good example.


    -a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a >>>-a-a-a In Hamlet, there are several instances where "nature"
    is used in a context that evokes human instincts and bodily realities.
    One notable passage is from Act 1, Scene 2, where Hamlet speaks about
    the "unweeded garden," which can suggest a neglect of natural functions
    and the state of humanity:


    "For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
    When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
    Must give us pauserCothere's the respect
    That makes calamity of so long life."



    From Act 1, Scene 2:

    "O, that this too too solid flesh would melt,
    Thaw, and resolve itself into a dew!
    Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
    His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
    How weary, stale, flat, and profitless
    Seem to me all the uses of this world!
    Fie on't! O, fie! 'tis an unweeded garden
    That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
    Possess it merely."

    Well there is also the well known phrase "Nature calls!".
    --
    Jeff Barnett

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.language.latin on Mon Dec 23 16:14:44 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On 2024-10-29 20:59:08 +0000, Ed Cryer said:



    -a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!



    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of

    Shelley's?



    I met a traveller from an antique land,

    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone

    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,

    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

    And on the pedestal, these words appear:

    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare

    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

    It's wonderful. I need to memorize the whole of it, not just a few lines.

    I often think of it when I think of some of our present leaders.
    --
    Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
    in England until 1987.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ed Cryer@ed@somewhere.in.the.uk to alt.language.latin on Mon Dec 23 15:51:52 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
    On 2024-10-29 20:59:08 +0000, Ed Cryer said:



    -a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!



    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of
    Shelley's?



    I met a traveller from an antique land,

    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone

    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,

    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,

    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,

    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read

    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,

    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;

    And on the pedestal, these words appear:

    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!

    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare

    The lone and level sands stretch far away.

    It's wonderful. I need to memorize the whole of it, not just a few lines.

    I often think of it when I think of some of our present leaders.


    It is overwhelmingly moving. I suspect Shelley must have polished and repolished it for ages to get that beautiful finished product.

    There's an ode in Latin by Horace that moves me as much; https://www.pantheonpoets.com/poems/horaces-monument/

    Ed

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Athel Cornish-Bowden@me@yahoo.com to alt.language.latin on Mon Dec 23 18:36:52 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.language.latin

    On 2024-12-23 15:51:52 +0000, Ed Cryer said:

    Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

    On 2024-10-29 20:59:08 +0000, Ed Cryer said:







    -a-a ------------a Sonnets-a are often Really Boring !!!







    The best of human times are past. Who could ever top this sonnet of

    Shelley's?







    I met a traveller from an antique land,



    Who saidrCorCLTwo vast and trunkless legs of stone



    Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,



    Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,



    And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,



    Tell that its sculptor well those passions read



    Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,



    The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;



    And on the pedestal, these words appear:



    My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;



    Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!



    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay



    Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare



    The lone and level sands stretch far away.



    It's wonderful. I need to memorize the whole of it, not just a few lines.



    I often think of it when I think of some of our present leaders.





    It is overwhelmingly moving. I suspect Shelley must have polished and

    repolished it for ages to get that beautiful finished product.



    There's an ode in Latin by Horace that moves me as much;

    https://www.pantheonpoets.com/poems/horaces-monument/

    Agreed (on the basis of the English translation). With the help of the
    latter (and a knowledge of Spanish) I can follow the Latin, but my
    Latin lessons were so long ago (65 years ago) that I couldn't have
    hoped to make my own translation.
    --
    Athel cb

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2