From Newsgroup: alt.folklore.computers

On 03/09/2026 1:29 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
(Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and >>> Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.

... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.

Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
rabbit-hole.

No rabbit-hole. I think itrCOs known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.

No. "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or "outsider." Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
"(from the land of) dust."

Actually (O^O) -- that's inline A.S.C.I.I. art for a guy pushing up his glasses, so I've included alt.ascii-art in this discussion -- as I've
talked to a real live Jew, there is an ancient tradition among them-
selves that they were a warrior nation, so the etymology should be con-
sidered -- and maybe rejected -- in a new light. That they are the
"Apiru" of Egypt.

Now, we have modern examples of such adaptions of /foreign terms/, as
the very own yearly /Viking Festival/ in Iceland. Of course, that term
didn't get applied to the whole nation, but that can be considered an
accident of history, division between the other Nordic nations, and gen-
eral warfare between themselves; and of coures, having never been sub-
jects to the Bri'ish except for a very short duration during W.W.I.I.

Something maybe not even the Bri'ish of alt.folklore.computers nor alt. english.usage may remember.

Anyway, we now have history thread to uncover. Whether we're successful
or not remains to be seen, as there's ample evidence that Egyptologists
do not like it when people from other fields /butt in/ on their expert-
iese. For a good -- and by Usenet standards -- ancient flamewar, see
Bernal's /Black Athena/ and the relevant counter arguments, all publish-
ed in physical book form; which may also appear an archive.org but I
didn't check this time. Nowadays, real life Egyptologists agree that
the study of classics -- I believe they call themselves classicists wi-
thout any relation to C++ -- was indeed liberally literatted [sic] with
racism; and that without any race horses.

I personally admit little interested in reading the /Amarna Letters/ --
I believe that's the term Egyptologists use for the stash -- because I'm
quite frankly tired of Akhenaten and his ilk; side not for alt.usage.
english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or one of the /ChatGPT voca- bulary/? -- so I will not be undertaking this endeavour [sic] myself.

Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
to defend from invading Apiru. There is a very intriguing mention of "hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters. Rather than wading through
my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary. Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
Terru was its Governor.

Ah, there you confirm my terminology; thank you.

Google's Gemini wrote:

In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining >>> that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (b+2apiru) in the town
of +ainab+2. The Akkadian phrase "ana b+2ap-2r+2tim attab|ui" reflects a shift
into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.

In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves
the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."

That would indeed strengthen my hypothesis, but you're free to refute
me as I am not a Hebrew, nor a Jew.

In addition to the other groups, I've added alt.history.ancient-egypt.


Best wishes, and happy studies of the veritable Amarna letters, sans the English translations!
--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
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On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
thing the chatbots dredge up.

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John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> posted:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect."

As used today by people trying to give an impression of literary culture, it usually just means "sort": "Donald Trump and politicians of that ilk" means "Donald Trump and similarly corrupt politicians". Historically (and today in Scottish clan names) it means "same": the Macduff of that ilk is the Macduff of Macduff.

It's definitely not just some-

thing the chatbots dredge up.

--
athel

Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada
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On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
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On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street vernacular, is all.

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"JA" == John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> writes:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something
you'd say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's
definitely not just some-thing the chatbots dredge up.

It's used in one of my favourite poems by Ogden Nash:

'The Cow' The cow is of the bovine ilk; One end is moo, the
other, milk Malcolm
--
Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au>
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On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 06:49:00 +1000, Malcolm Purvis wrote:

It's used in one of my favourite poems by Ogden Nash:

'The Cow' The cow is of the bovine ilk; One end is moo, the
other, milk Malcolm

I think the traditional phrase is rCLof that ilkrCY:

The cow is a bovine of that ilk;
One end gives moo, the other milk.
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On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

Depends. If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk". But, if
he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
vocabulary.

Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

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On 9/3/26 15:01, Tony Cooper wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.

Depends. If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk". But, if
he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active vocabulary.

Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

Of course, "ilk" is always pejorative (except in the Nash couplet).
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On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

Of course it's not common.

Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.

I believe there is a place called Hayes in a place that used to be
called Middlesex, and perhaps if I lived there I might, in a jocular
manner, refer to myself as "Hayes of that Ilk" but even then the
occasions for using it would be few.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: alt.folklore.computers


Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory,
especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
"racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

Of course it's not common.

Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.

The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

Are the following all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
James
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On 04/09/2026 12:27 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:

Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.

In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory, especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
"racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."

Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.

Of course it's not common.

Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.

The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

Are the following all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
James

Dear James,

Nothing at all, and thank you for a wonderful exposition [1] of the nom- enclature [2] of Scottish clan names.

Are you by any chance a relation of [3] James P. Allen, the author of
several books on Egyptology? This is his academic profile.

https://vivo.brown.edu/display/jpallen


Best wishes, and happy studies of Egyptology in alt.usage.english!



[1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered /Chat-
GPT vocabulary/?

[2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same? These are two questions for alt. usage.english.

[3] Unrelated to schemas in relational databases. After all, alt.folk- lore.computers needs to have something to discuss, and why not the re-
lational schemas of Scottish clan names? Perhaps in I.B.M's. [4] D.B.2?
Or SQlite? Or PostgreSQL?

[4] I'm taking several liberations [sic] with typography here.
--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;
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On Fri, 4 Sep 2026 12:52:28 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

[1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered
/Chat- GPT vocabulary/?

[2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same? These are two questions for alt. usage.english.

"Nomenclature" is considered technical, but still in active use.
"Exposition" is pretty common, though it's mostly used in the sense of (dialogue the author is consciously using to establish information
about the background of their story;) the sense of (a methodical
presentation of a subject in all its aspects) is, AFAIK, mainly used in
a theological context these days.

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On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,

if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

Are the following all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior >Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would >Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, >but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

When English-speaking people came to South Africa they thought the
social system of the Zulus was similar to that of the Highland Scots,
and so they used Scottish terminology to describe it -- chiefs, clans
etc.

For example the place where the Biyela clan lived was known as
kwaBiyela, and most of the people living there had the surname Biyela,
so the inhabitants of kwaBiyela could probably be quite properly known
as "Biyela of that Ilk". I at one time had a colleague and mentor
called Peter Biyela. He didn't live in kwaBiyela, so he wasn't of that
Ilk, but his ancestors may have been. On comparing family histories we discovered that his grandfather and my great grandfather had fought on
opposite sides in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 and so could have
encountered each other on the battlefield.

Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)

I'm not sure. What do the Amarna letters have to do with English
usage?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

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Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:

On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

... when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

I don't think so.

Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of the Franks, King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the English (the title Mathilda used). In other words they were King of a PEOPLE. It was with the increasing dominance of Christianity and the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles generally changed to be King of a TERRITORY.

Of course, that may seem irrelevant here, since we're speaking of Clan Chiefs rather than Kings. Lesser nobles were associated with places rather than people long before the "Divine Right" transition. BUT that did NOT
apply to Gaelic Clan Chiefs. A Clan is specifically a group of PEOPLE
not a group of BUILDINGS. Colin Mor Campbell was
- Chief of Clan Campbell -- a people
- Lord of Lochow (Loch Awe) -- a place
His ggg-grandson Duncan built Inveraray Castle - a residence for the Clan Chiefs.
It was Duncan's grandson Colin who first used the title Earl of Argyll (a
LARGE TERRITORY). The Earls of Argyll were also Chiefs of Clan Campbell,
but felt no need to point this out.

As just one more example to punctuate the point the Chiefs of Clan Drummond
may have titled themselves "of That Ilk" (PEOPLE) in the 14th century
but when they came into possession of 2 pieces of LAND they were known
as the Drummond Lords of Cargill and/or Stobhall.

Thank you for your attention to this matter. :-) :-) -- JDA



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