• Re: OT NASA CHAPEA Mars Simulation.

    From a425couple@a425couple@hotmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Sun Jul 21 19:13:30 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    On 7/18/24 09:57, Robert Carnegie wrote:
    On 10/07/2024 05:39, Titus G wrote:

    Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
    at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
    What about water? Gravity?

    There have been previous exercises.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
    :-)

    My daughter took her 7th Grade daughter to the Biosphere
    a couple of months ago.

    As I remember way back when, it was an early dry run on what
    a colony could have been like on Mars (or even the Moon).
    The experiment suffered problems, one major problem was
    all the calculations of oxygen production to meet needs,
    was way off because of concrete curing type issues.

    Any way, the grandaughter did not see any indications that
    it was an experiment on 'off Earth' living.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 06:43:52 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:ffjnO.141237$xL%b.96164@fx17.iad...

    On 7/18/24 09:57, Robert Carnegie wrote:
    On 10/07/2024 05:39, Titus G wrote:

    Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
    at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
    What about water? Gravity?

    There have been previous exercises.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
    :-)

    My daughter took her 7th Grade daughter to the Biosphere
    a couple of months ago.

    As I remember way back when, it was an early dry run on what
    a colony could have been like on Mars (or even the Moon).
    The experiment suffered problems, one major problem was
    all the calculations of oxygen production to meet needs,
    was way off because of concrete curing type issues.

    Any way, the grandaughter did not see any indications that
    it was an experiment on 'off Earth' living.

    ---------------------------------
    I've toured a Boomer, the USS Maine, another closed environment for a place humans can't survive. Missile tubes make the hull large enough for somewhat less cramped accommodations than other narrower subs. A large difference
    from a colony is that they have plenty of electrical power and stored food which can be replenished, they have to produce only their air and water.

    I experienced communal living during Army training though not on the job, I was a computer communications tech making solo repair trips in a foreign country, which suited me just fine.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 09:12:56 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "a425couple" wrote in message news:ffjnO.141237$xL%b.96164@fx17.iad...

    On 7/18/24 09:57, Robert Carnegie wrote:
    On 10/07/2024 05:39, Titus G wrote:

    Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
    at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
    What about water? Gravity?

    There have been previous exercises.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
    :-)

    -------------------------
    Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural
    past:
    https://edepot.wur.nl/58719

    Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house and
    a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the size of the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike cow or sheep manure.

    https://clivusmultrum.com/what-we-do.php

    https://www.mmsd.com/about-us/milorganite
    "Milorganite-< is actually a bag of dried microbes (not poop)!"

    The concept lends itself to a simple DIY greenhouse operation, though that
    may not be enough to qualify for a government grant.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Cryptoengineer@petertrei@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 14:49:54 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    On 7/22/2024 9:12 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"-a wrote in message news:ffjnO.141237$xL%b.96164@fx17.iad...

    On 7/18/24 09:57, Robert Carnegie wrote:
    On 10/07/2024 05:39, Titus G wrote:

    Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
    at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
    What about water? Gravity?

    There have been previous exercises.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
    :-)

    -------------------------
    Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural past:
    https://edepot.wur.nl/58719

    Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike
    cow or sheep manure.

    So does Twain, in 'A Tramp Abroad'.

    pt

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 18:12:27 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "Cryptoengineer" wrote in message news:v7m9ki$p7gu$1@dont-email.me...

    On 7/22/2024 9:12 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol. I never noticed any smell, unlike
    cow or sheep manure.

    So does Twain, in 'A Tramp Abroad'.

    pt
    -------------------------------------
    I bought and read that book in Heidelberg, and having explored parts of the Neckar from below Heilbronn to the Rhine I certainly share his appreciation for that scenic valley. I had a bicycle and an inflatable boat, either of which could carry me plus the other. As the token NCO at an officers'
    banquet I danced with the Colonel's wife on the floor over the huge wine barrel under the Heidelberg Schloss, and took a picture through its small opening, which showed much internal bracing.

    Notburga's Cave is merely a niche in the rock wall with a small overhang.
    The stream beside it was a tiny trickle. The partly ruined castle across the river had a nice small restaurant. Twain greatly inflated that incident to good effect.

    North of Heilbronn a 12th century castle was an unrestrained open air refuge for the largest raptors, which ominously lined the guard rail driving up and eyed us quietly from their perching posts as we nervously walked past.

    Heidelberg wasn't bombed though being prosperous it had been modernized to
    the bland stucco fashion after the war. Heilbronn was bombed to ruin and rebuilt with concrete. The less prosperous small villages around retained their picturesque medieval architecture (Fachwerk), showing what had been
    lost in the cities.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_framing

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From a425couple@a425couple@hotmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 16:32:16 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    On 7/22/24 06:12, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "a425couple"-a wrote in message news:ffjnO.141237$xL%b.96164@fx17.iad...

    On 7/18/24 09:57, Robert Carnegie wrote:
    On 10/07/2024 05:39, Titus G wrote:

    Four people in 1700 square feet for over a year? (If it was a SF story,
    at least two of them would have gone mad or been killed.)
    What about water? Gravity?

    There have been previous exercises.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2
    :-)

    -------------------------
    Creating a self-supporting ecosystem may require going back to the rural past:
    https://edepot.wur.nl/58719

    Note that they built the proverbial two-story outhouse.

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol.

    Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
    I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 21:28:28 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein



    "a425couple" wrote in message news:5_BnO.141677$xL%b.102805@fx17.iad...

    On 7/22/24 06:12, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol.

    Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
    I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.

    --------------------------------
    War as I Knew It?

    My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family,
    the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and
    the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.

    The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script. Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and
    supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Mon Jul 22 22:19:49 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:v7mlht$rc63$1@dont-email.me...

    North of Heilbronn a 12th century castle was an unrestrained open air refuge for the largest raptors, which ominously lined the guard rail driving up and eyed us quietly from their perching posts as we nervously walked past.

    ----------------
    The castle I visited may have been temporary quarters during renovation of
    the permanent one. https://burg-guttenberg.de/en/greifenwarte/flugvorfuehrungen/

    I rarely visited cities because there was so much to see outside them, and
    the Army tactical communications centers I served tended to be hidden in
    some remote forest or mountain top. Shell road maps were like topo maps, showing every farm house and the sites of ancient ruins. Castle ruins had
    been cleaned up and stabilized to be fairly safe for visitors. Germans never damaged anything, or left trash or graffiti.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Paul S Person@psperson@old.netcom.invalid to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Tue Jul 23 08:47:05 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:


    "a425couple" wrote in message news:5_BnO.141677$xL%b.102805@fx17.iad...

    On 7/22/24 06:12, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol.

    Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
    I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.

    --------------------------------
    War as I Knew It?

    My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family, >the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He >described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and >the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.

    The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script. >Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and >supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie >showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.
    The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
    story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:
    1) two couples, one adult, one young
    2) the /adult/ couple thrives
    3) the /young/ couple does not
    /South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
    This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
    romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
    couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).
    Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
    incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
    The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
    herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
    normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
    beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
    made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
    of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
    /Addams Family Values/.
    So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
    ending got dramaticized.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Tue Jul 23 12:56:49 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "Paul S Person" wrote in message news:9fjv9jh83nekl3ofhu27702elru7lrvreh@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:



    "a425couple" wrote in message news:5_BnO.141677$xL%b.102805@fx17.iad...

    On 7/22/24 06:12, Jim Wilkins wrote:

    Even in town, farmers' houses in rural Germany had pigs under the house
    and a "Misthaufen" compost/dung heap outside. Patton commented that the
    size of the heap was a status symbol.

    Yes, it was quite a scathing opinion.
    I'm trying to remember in which of my books that was.

    --------------------------------
    War as I Knew It?

    My favorite observation was by the father of the singing von Trapp family, >the most successful Austrian U-Boot skipper in the Adriatic during WW1. He >described a Montenegrin couple coming to market, the man riding a mule and >the wife on foot, struggling under the bundle of merchandise.

    The family sold all rights to the story and had no say in the movie script. >Actually his and Maria's natures were swapped, he was tolerant and >supportive, she was strict with a bad temper, not the free spirit the movie >showed. They escaped by simply boarding a train.

    The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
    story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

    1) two couples, one adult, one young
    2) the /adult/ couple thrives
    3) the /young/ couple does not

    /South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
    This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
    romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
    couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

    Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
    incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
    The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
    herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
    normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
    beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
    made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
    of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
    /Addams Family Values/.

    So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
    ending got dramaticized.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    ----------------------------------
    Andrews also played strong, short-tempered women very well in Thoroughly Modern Millie, Darling Lili and 10.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Wed Jul 24 12:27:50 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "Paul S Person" wrote in message news:9fjv9jh83nekl3ofhu27702elru7lrvreh@4ax.com...


    The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
    story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

    1) two couples, one adult, one young
    2) the /adult/ couple thrives
    3) the /young/ couple does not

    /South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
    This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
    romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
    couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

    Also, at the time, Julie Andrews had a screen image that was
    incompatible with "strict with a bad temper" (think /Mary Poppins/).
    The film /S.O.B./ makes fun of this by having her play, in effect,
    herself -- and ending up doing something very different from her
    normal image. By or after /Torn Curtain/, she had definitely moved
    beyond her former image. But at the time the play was written/film was
    made, her image was still going strong. Which is why the opening song
    of /Sound of Music/ is used to torture Wednesday and friends in
    /Addams Family Values/.

    So it should be no surprise that the characters got switched and the
    ending got dramaticized.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    ------------------------- https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/winter/von-trapps-html

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Wed Jul 24 18:07:07 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    "Paul S Person" wrote in message news:9fjv9jh83nekl3ofhu27702elru7lrvreh@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
    ...

    The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
    story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

    1) two couples, one adult, one young
    2) the /adult/ couple thrives
    3) the /young/ couple does not

    /South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
    This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
    romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
    couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

    -----------------------------------
    Georg von Trapp's first wife died from scarlet fever. He has a light weight affair with a socialite before Maria snares him. They stayed together until his early death, likely resulting from the poisonous fumes in the gasoline-powered U-Boot. The daughter's romance with the singing Nazi boy ended when they left.

    In "South Pacific" American nurse Nellie Forbush falls for older French plantation owner Emile De Becque who has many children from affairs with various local women, some dark Polynesians who Forbush, from Little Rock, can't separate from Negros. She avoids strife at home by staying with him.
    The other romance is between Lt Cable and a Tonkinese (Vietnamese) girl he knows won't be accepted back home in Philadelphia. His heroic death is the resolution. External events separated both young couples.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Paul S Person@psperson@old.netcom.invalid to rec.arts.sf.written,alt.fan.heinlein,rec.aviation.military on Thu Jul 25 08:43:04 2024
    From Newsgroup: alt.fan.heinlein

    On Wed, 24 Jul 2024 18:07:07 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
    "Paul S Person" wrote in message >news:9fjv9jh83nekl3ofhu27702elru7lrvreh@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 21:28:28 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
    <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
    ...

    The movie I remember (vaguely) was of the musical play based on their
    story. Or, rather, their story as crammed into the Standard Formula:

    1) two couples, one adult, one young
    2) the /adult/ couple thrives
    3) the /young/ couple does not

    /South Pacific/ uses the same formula.
    This is what the 50's (that is, the Greatest Generation) found
    romantic. And re-assuring (they identified, of course, with the adult
    couple, and took joy in the failure of the young whippersnappers).

    -----------------------------------
    Georg von Trapp's first wife died from scarlet fever. He has a light weight >affair with a socialite before Maria snares him. They stayed together until >his early death, likely resulting from the poisonous fumes in the >gasoline-powered U-Boot. The daughter's romance with the singing Nazi boy >ended when they left.
    I don't think he didn't in the film (and so likely not in the play).
    I'm surprised the daughter's romance wasn't made up out of whole
    cloth. But perhaps it was, and you are including real-life and
    fictional elements together willy-nilly in the belief they contradict
    the pattern presented.
    In "South Pacific" American nurse Nellie Forbush falls for older French >plantation owner Emile De Becque who has many children from affairs with >various local women, some dark Polynesians who Forbush, from Little Rock, >can't separate from Negros. She avoids strife at home by staying with him. >The other romance is between Lt Cable and a Tonkinese (Vietnamese) girl he >knows won't be accepted back home in Philadelphia. His heroic death is the >resolution. External events separated both young couples.
    IIRC, a theater in Little Rock was firebombed and burned to the ground
    for daring so show /South Pacific/, a film depicting the products of miscegenation. Semi-fascist ultra-MAGA types have been around for a
    lot longer than a certain D. Trump.
    And the brave Defenders of the White Race who destroyed the theater
    didn't distinguish between "Polynesian" and "African" (or, for that
    matter, "sub-continental Indian") either. They weren't fond of
    Orientals and Roman Catholics (however white). They just hated them
    all. And still do, of course.
    In both cases, the adult couples get married which, in the 50's was
    Success with a capital "S". How long either partner lasted after that
    was not important.
    And, in both cases, the budding love of the younger couple was
    bitterly ended by cruel fate. What, you thought these things ended
    because they broke up over some teenage nonsense? Actually killing the
    Lt off for daring to fall in love with a non-white person was the only
    possible solution. Still didn't compensate for the miscegenation,
    however.
    The singing Nazi boy may or may not have survived the war; the
    relationship did not, and that is all that matters.
    IIRC, /The King and I/ followed the same pattern, although I no longer
    recall how the young couple fared in the Yul Brynner film of the
    musical. In the animated version, of course, both couples do just fine
    but then, that was done for the kiddies. This does make the King look
    better, especially the rescue.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2