The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.ThatrCOs what the ancient Cretans did.
Were those [Cretan] clay tablets used as scratch-pads?
These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.
Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.
Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.
No rabbit-hole. I think itrCOs known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.
In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining
that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (b+2apiru) in the town
of +ainab+2. The Akkadian phrase "ana b+2ap-2r+2tim attab|ui" reflects a shift
into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.
In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
of Israel."
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 05:29:39 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
of Israel."
Enslaved by whom?
Not by the Egyptians.
Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:
These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
(Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and >>> Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.
... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.
Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this
rabbit-hole.
No rabbit-hole. I think itrCOs known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.
No. "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or "outsider." Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
"(from the land of) dust."
Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
to defend from invading Apiru. There is a very intriguing mention of "hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters. Rather than wading through
my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary. Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
Terru was its Governor.
Google's Gemini wrote:
In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining >>> that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (b+2apiru) in the town
of +ainab+2. The Akkadian phrase "ana b+2ap-2r+2tim attab|ui" reflects a shift
into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.
In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves
the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."
side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.
ThatrCOs what the ancient Cretans did.
But every now and then, a house or shed or some such structure with a
bunch of clay tablets in it would burn down, and the clay would get
baked in the fire, so that it couldnrCOt be erased and reused. And so, samples of their writing survived down through the ages for us to
puzzle over.
Linear B (an old form of Greek) has been cracked, Linear A (even
older) is still a puzzle.
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect."
thing the chatbots dredge up.
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
thing the chatbots dredge up.
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
"JA" == John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> writes:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something
you'd say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's
definitely not just some-thing the chatbots dredge up.
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some- >>thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
It's used in one of my favourite poems by Ogden Nash:
'The Cow' The cow is of the bovine ilk; One end is moo, the
other, milk Malcolm
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> writes:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> >>wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say >>>if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some- >>>thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
Not in alt.folklore.computers. Please pay attention to cross
posting in the Newsgroups: header before replying.
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.
Depends. If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk". But, if
he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active vocabulary.
Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.
Of course it's not common.
Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:
"Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.
I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
discussions are very common.
In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory, especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
"racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."
Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
vernacular, is all.
Of course it's not common.
Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
live in Scotland.
The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).
I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
Are the following all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?
Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."
Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
James
[1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered
/Chat- GPT vocabulary/?
[2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same? These are two questions for alt. usage.english.
I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland itif Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
Are the following all essentially the same?
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
- Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior >Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would >Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?
Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
the same name as the surname.
Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, >but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."
Apologies for all the errors!
(And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:
... when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).
I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.
Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of
the Franks, King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the
English (the title Mathilda used). In other words they were King of
a PEOPLE. It was with the increasing dominance of Christianity and
the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles generally changed to be
King of a TERRITORY.
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