• Re: (9) Churches say Jesus is God. Then explain these:

    From zebrabible@zebrabible@proton.me to alt.bible,alt.christnet.bible on Sun Sep 27 20:19:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.bible

    (9) Churches say Jesus is God. Then explain these:

    ***Jesus doesn't know what God knows.

    -- Revised Standard
    Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the
    angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

    ***Jesus died, but God always lived:

    -- Revised Standard
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have
    fallen asleep.

    *** New King James
    Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
    formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting,
    You are God.

    ***Jesus is subordinate to God:

    -- New King James
    John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming
    back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am
    going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

    ***When Jesus went back in Heaven, was still subordinate:

    -- New King James
    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man
    is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    ***Jesus' God is Jehovah:

    -- King James
    Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is
    Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.

    -- New King James
    John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet
    ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am
    ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'''
    ***In his prehuman existence, Jesus was created by God:

    -- Revised Standard
    Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write:
    'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning
    of God's creation.

    -- Revised Standard
    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born
    of all creation;

    " How Can the Bible Help You?
    Find out with our free interactive Bible study program."
    Go to: jw.org (9/27/2026)
    zebrabible@proton.me

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  • From Christ Rose@usenet@christrose.news to alt.bible,alt.christnet.bible on Mon Sep 28 08:47:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: alt.bible

    ========================================
    Sun, 27 Sep 2026 20:19:29 -0400,
    <pgcjblh1qr0lq3lv32gal4dt5c3sda6n4k@4ax.com>
    Satan's Witness <zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================

    (9) Churches say Jesus is God. Then explain these:


    Liar. To begin, you keep ignoring and denying the fact that all of your objections have been repeatedly explained in dozens of articles. I've
    shown you this many times, yet you keep coming back as if no one has
    refuted your satanic lies, challenging them to "explain" something that
    has already been explained. By challenging someone to "explain", you
    deny the reality that they already have been explained repeatedly. That
    shows you are a liar.


    The _Bible_ itself says Jesus is God. That you try to portray it as some doctrine of "Churches", just shows you deny what the Bible plainly
    teaches. The NWT heresy Bible, designed by Watchtower to corroborate
    their heresy, modifies the Bible to omit or insert whatever words are necessary to deny the plain teaching Jesus is God (see
    christrose.news/nwt). That you keep trying to portray this as a doctrine
    of the "churches", shows you are a liar who denies it's what the Bible
    plainly says.


    Jesus is God

    christrose.news/Jesus-is-God

    Jesus is God. The Bible teaches clearly, from beginning to end, that
    Jesus shares the divine nature, authority, and glory of God. Those who
    deny this truth reject what God has revealed about His Son. To
    understand why we say Jesus is God, we must walk through the BiblerCOs testimony.

    The Old Testament prepared the way for the coming of God in the flesh.
    The prophet Isaiah foretold that a child would be born called rCLMighty
    GodrCY (Isaiah 9:6). In the same book, Isaiah said the coming voice in the wilderness would prepare the way of Yahweh Himself (Isaiah 40:3). When
    John the Baptist fulfilled this, he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew
    3:3), showing that Jesus is Yahweh in human form.

    The New Testament makes this even more clear. The Gospel of John begins
    by calling Jesus rCLthe Word,rCY saying, rCLIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GodrCY (John 1:1, ESV). He was not created. He existed from the beginning with God and as God. Then John
    tells us, rCLAnd the Word became flesh and dwelt among usrCY (John 1:14,
    ESV). Jesus, the eternal Word, took on human nature without ceasing to
    be God.

    Jesus claimed divine identity many times. In John 8:58, He said, rCLBefore Abraham was, I amrCY (John 8:58, ESV). This statement echoes GodrCOs name in Exodus 3:14rCorCLI AM WHO I AM.rCY The Jews understood this clearly. They picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy because He made Himself equal
    with God (John 8:59).

    Jesus also forgave sins, something only God can do. When He told a
    paralytic, rCLYour sins are forgivenrCY (Mark 2:5, ESV), the scribes said, rCLWho can forgive sins but God alone?rCY (Mark 2:7, ESV). Jesus did not
    deny their logic. Instead, He healed the man to prove His divine
    authority (Mark 2:10).

    Jesus accepted worship that belongs only to God. After His resurrection, Thomas fell before Him and said, rCLMy Lord and my God!rCY (John 20:28,
    ESV). Jesus did not correct him. He affirmed ThomasrCOs faith. In
    contrast, when others tried to worship angels or apostles, they were
    stopped immediately (Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 22:8-9).

    The apostle Paul also testified clearly. He said, rCLFor in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodilyrCY (Colossians 2:9, ESV). Jesus does not merely reflect God. He is fully God in human flesh. Paul also called
    Jesus rCLour great God and SaviorrCY (Titus 2:13, ESV) and said that Jesus, though equal with God, humbled Himself to become a man (Philippians
    2:6-7). His name is above every name, and every knee will bow to Him (Philippians 2:10-11), echoing Isaiah 45:23rCoa passage that speaks of
    Yahweh alone.

    The author of Hebrews speaks the same way. Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus
    is rCLthe radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his
    naturerCY (Hebrews 1:3, ESV). He upholds the universe by His word. In
    Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to the Son, rCLYour throne, O God, is
    forever and everrCY (Hebrews 1:8, ESV). This is a direct call to the Son
    as God.

    Peter also confessed this truth. He opened his second letter by
    addressing believers who have received faith rCLby the righteousness of
    our God and Savior Jesus ChristrCY (2 Peter 1:1, ESV). This pairing of
    rCLGod and SaviorrCY refers to one PersonrCoJesus Christ.

    Even the Old Testament titles and actions of God are applied to Jesus.
    God is called the first and the last (Isaiah 44:6). Jesus takes this
    same name in Revelation 22:13. God says He created everything alone
    (Isaiah 44:24), yet John says all things were made through Jesus (John
    1:3), and Paul agrees (Colossians 1:16-17). Jesus is not a lesser god.
    He is the Creator and sustainer of all things.

    Jesus also bears the name above every name. In Philippians 2:10-11, all creation bows to Him and confesses Him as Lord. This word rCLLordrCY (Greek: kurios) often translates the Hebrew name Yahweh in the Septuagint.
    Romans 10:13 quotes Joel 2:32, saying, rCLEveryone who calls on the name
    of the Lord will be saved.rCY Paul applies that to Jesus (Romans 10:9-13), showing that calling on Jesus is calling on Yahweh.

    JesusrCOs resurrection proves His claims. God raised Him from the dead to
    show that He is the Son of God in power (Romans 1:4). He now sits at
    GodrCOs right hand (Hebrews 1:3), receives worship from angels (Hebrews
    1:6), and will return to judge the world (Acts 17:31), a role that
    belongs to God alone (Genesis 18:25).

    Some try to deny His deity by saying He prayed to the Father or called
    the Father His God. But these truths show His humanity and His
    relationship to the Father, not a denial of deity. Jesus became fully
    man without ceasing to be fully God. He lived in perfect dependence on
    the Father as the second Adam (Romans 5:18-19; Philippians 2:6-8). He
    prayed, submitted, and obeyed to accomplish our salvation. The eternal
    Son added human nature so He could die for sins, rise again, and bring
    many sons to glory (Hebrews 2:10).

    The Trinity explains this. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are
    distinct Persons, but each is fully God. The Son is not the Father, but
    He shares the same divine nature. The Son came in the flesh. The Spirit applies His work. The Father sent the Son, the Son obeyed, and the
    Spirit testifies (John 14rCo16).

    To reject Jesus as God is to reject the gospel. Unless He is truly God,
    He cannot save (John 8:24). A creature cannot bear the infinite wrath of
    God for our sins. Only God can save sinners (Isaiah 43:11). Jesus, fully
    God and fully man, bore our punishment and rose again. This gospel
    centers on who He is (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    The Scriptures speak with one voice: Jesus is God. He is the eternal
    Word made flesh, the Son of God who shares the nature, works, titles,
    and worship of the Father. He is not just a good teacher or a powerful prophet. He is rCLour great God and SaviorrCY (Titus 2:13, ESV). To believe
    in Him is to believe in God. To deny Him is to reject the only hope of salvation.


    ***Jesus doesn't know what God knows.

    -- Revised Standard
    Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the
    angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.


    Liar. Philippians 2 shows that Jesus, though equal to God, temporarily
    emptied Himself of His divine rights during His time of humiliation on
    earth.


    ***Jesus died, but God always lived:

    -- Revised Standard
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have
    fallen asleep.

    *** New King James
    Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had
    formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting,
    You are God.


    Satanic liar. Jesus was God before He became a man (John 1). It was only
    His human body which died, not His eternally existing divine nature.



    ***Jesus is subordinate to God:

    -- New King James
    John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming
    back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am
    going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

    ***When Jesus went back in Heaven, was still subordinate:

    -- New King James
    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man
    is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


    Satanic liar. You seek to confuse role and function with essence of
    being. For example, one human being doesn't cease to be a human being,
    simply because he submits to another human being. By such reasoning, a
    woman could not be a human being or a child of God, because she fulfills
    a role of submission to the husband. Women are human beings and children
    of God in essence, but they are voluntarily subordinate in role and
    function. In the same way, Jesus is equal to God in His essence and
    being (Philippians 2), but voluntarily submissive in role and function.
    You seek to confuse role and function with essence of being.


    ***Jesus' God is Jehovah:

    -- King James
    Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is
    Jehovah, art the most high over all the earth.


    The fact that Holy Spirit inspired Apostles translate the Old Testament
    "YHWH" as "kyrios" ("Lb|A-Cb|a"), and consistently apply that name to Jesus Christ, confirms Jesus is YHWH God:

    1. Joel 2:32 raA Romans 10:13
    rCo Joel 2:32 (LXX): rCLEveryone who calls on the name of the LORD
    (*Kurios*) will be saved.rCY

    rCo Romans 10:13: rCLEveryone who calls on the name of the LORD
    (*Kurios*) will be saved.rCY

    Paul applies this to Jesus in Romans 10:9, identifying Him as the
    *Kurios* on whom we call for salvation.

    2. Isaiah 45:23 raA Philippians 2:10rCo11

    rCo Isaiah 45:23 (LXX): rCLTo Me every knee shall bow, every tongue
    shall confess to God.rCY

    rCo Philippians 2:10rCo11: rCLAt the name of Jesus every knee should
    bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD
    (*Kurios*).rCY

    Paul applies this passage about YHWH to Jesus, calling Him *Kurios*.

    3. Deuteronomy 6:4 raA 1 Corinthians 8:6

    rCo Deuteronomy 6:4 (LXX): rCLThe LORD (*Kurios*) our God, the LORD
    (*Kurios*) is one.rCY

    rCo 1 Corinthians 8:6: rCLYet for us there is one God, the Father...
    and one LORD (*Kurios*), Jesus Christ.rCY

    Paul affirms monotheism and includes Jesus as *Kurios* within the divine identity.

    4. Psalm 34:8 raA 1 Peter 2:3

    rCo Psalm 34:8 (LXX): rCLTaste and see that the LORD (*Kurios*) is
    good.rCY

    rCo 1 Peter 2:3: rCLIf indeed you have tasted that the LORD
    (*Kurios*) is good.rCY

    Peter quotes the psalm about YHWH and applies it to Jesus as *Kurios*.

    5. Isaiah 8:13rCo14 raA 1 Peter 3:15; Romans 9:33

    rCo Isaiah 8:13: rCLBut the LORD (*Kurios*) of hosts, Him you shall
    honor as holy...rCY

    rCo 1 Peter 3:15: rCLHonor Christ the LORD (*Kurios*) as holy in your
    hearts.rCY

    rCo Isaiah 8:14: rCLAnd He will become a sanctuary and a stone of
    stumbling...rCY

    Romans 9:33 and 1 Peter 2:8 apply this stumbling stone to Christ,
    identifying Him as the *Kurios*.

    6. Psalm 102:25rCo27 raA Hebrews 1:10rCo12

    rCo Psalm 102:25 (LXX): rCLYou, LORD (*Kurios*), laid the foundation
    of the earth in the beginning.rCY

    rCo Hebrews 1:10: rCLYou, LORD (*Kurios*), laid the foundation of the
    earth in the beginning.rCY

    The writer explicitly says this was spoken rCLof the Son,rCY identifying
    Jesus as *Kurios*.

    7. Deuteronomy 10:17 raA Revelation 19:16

    rCo Deuteronomy 10:17 (LXX): rCLFor the LORD (*Kurios*) your God is
    God of gods and LORD (*Kurios*) of lords.rCY

    rCo Revelation 19:16: rCLKing of kings and LORD (*Kurios*) of lords.rCY

    The title for YHWH is applied to Jesus, who bears the name *Kurios* of all.

    The New Testament authors consistently affirm *Kurios* as the proper translation of YHWH and deliberately apply passages about the *Kurios*
    of the Old Testament to Jesus Christ. You have been shown this time and
    again, and have no reasonable or convincing explanation.


    -- New King James
    John 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, `I am
    ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'''
    ***In his prehuman existence, Jesus was created by God:


    Stupid liar. The Father also refers to the Son as God:

    rCLYour throne, O God, is forever and ever. The scepter of your kingdom is
    a scepter of uprightness;rCY (Psalm 45:6, ESV)

    rCLBut of the Son he says, rCLYour throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.rCY (Hebrews 1:8, ESV)

    The Father also acknowledges the Son as God.


    -- Revised Standard
    Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write:
    'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning
    of God's creation.


    The word translated "beginning" means the author and originator of
    creation, not the first created being. You've been shown that again and
    again.


    -- Revised Standard
    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born
    of all creation;


    "First-born" is repeatedly used in the Bible as a title of authority,
    not to show an order of creation:

    Psalm 89:20, 27

    "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him...
    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth."

    David was historically the youngest of Jesse's eight sons (1 Samuel
    16:10-13, 17:14), yet God declared He would appoint David as His
    "firstborn." The text explicitly defines what this means: he is elevated
    to preeminence, "higher than the kings of the earth." Because David was
    born last in his family and was made firstborn later in life, the term
    denotes supreme status, covenant headship, and royal supremacy, not
    biological birth order or chronological origin.

    Exodus 4:22

    "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son,
    even my firstborn."

    Israel (Jacob) was not the first nation created on the earth; numerous
    nations and empires existed centuries before the descendants of Jacob
    became a nation. God designating the corporate nation of Israel as His "firstborn" signifies their covenant priority, special election, and privileged status above all other nations, not that they were the first
    human society brought into existence.

    Jeremiah 31:9

    "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them:
    I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
    wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim
    is my firstborn."

    Chronologically, Manasseh was the firstborn son of Joseph, and Ephraim
    was the younger brother (Genesis 41:50-52, 48:13-14). Jacob deliberately crossed his hands to bestow the primary blessing and rights of the
    firstborn upon Ephraim over Manasseh. When the Lord confirms centuries
    later that Ephraim is His "firstborn," it demonstrates that the status
    of firstborn is an assigned position of headship and spiritual
    inheritance, entirely distinct from birth sequence.

    Colossians 1:15, 18

    "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every
    creature... And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the
    beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have
    the preeminence."

    In verse 15, Christ as the "firstborn of all creation" (prototokos) does
    not mean He is part of creation, because verses 16 and 17 state that all things were created by Him and that He is before all things. Verse 18
    defines the purpose and meaning of the title: "that in all things he
    might have the preeminence." Furthermore, as the "firstborn from the
    dead," Christ was not the first person chronologically resurrected in
    human history (prophets such as Elijah and Elisha raised individuals
    from death, and Jesus raised Lazarus prior to His own resurrection).
    Instead, He is the firstborn from the dead because He holds ultimate
    supremacy and sovereign authority over death itself.

    Hebrews 1:6

    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he
    saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

    God commands all created beingsrCospecifically the angelic realmrCoto
    worship the "firstbegotten" (firstborn). In biblical theology, created
    beings are never to receive divine worship; worship belongs exclusively
    to God. Designating the Son as the firstborn while commanding angels to worship Him establishes that the title denotes His exalted rank,
    rightful inheritance of all things, and divine authority over creation,
    rather than membership among created things.

    Hebrews 12:23

    "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written
    in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men
    made perfect."

    Believers gathered in heaven are collectively described as the "assembly
    and church of the firstborn" (plural in the Greek, prototokon). These individuals were born across thousands of years of human history, with millions born after others. Calling the entire body of redeemed people "firstborn" identifies them by their legal standing as full heirs of God
    and joint-heirs with Christ, endowed with the supreme privileges and inheritance of the firstborn, irrespective of chronological age or time
    of birth.

    Again and again, this Satan's Witness promotes lies to deny Jesus is
    God, and to promote a false gospel which seeks to comfort men with the
    lie they can reject Christ as Savior, yet still escape conscious eternal torment:

    ========================================
    Thu, 11 Jun 2026 14:36:38 -0400,
    <dmbl2l1osulua32fhs2oksci4gt1dpbsfr@4ax.com>
    Satan's Witness <zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================

    [Christrose wrote]

    Everything you try to brainwash people with in here is a calculated
    denial of the true gospel and an effort to lure men into the comfort of
    believing they can reject Christ till death and still somehow either be
    saved or not experience conscious eternal torment.

    [Watchtower James wrote]

    Now you got it.
    --
    Good News rCa

    Jesus is God: christrose.news/Jesus-God.

    The exclusive, saving gospel states that Christ died for our sins and
    rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:8-9). All other
    gospels are counterfeit and doom people to conscious, eternal torment in
    the lake of fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; John 3:36; Revelation 14:11; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15). If you deny that Jesus is God,
    you will perish in your sins (John 8:24).

    Jesus fully satisfied our sin debt to God through His crucifixion
    (Colossians 2:14), a truth confirmed by His resurrection (Romans 1:4). Consequently, God maintains His perfect justice while pardoning
    believers (Romans 3:26) and rescuing them from imminent judgment (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This salvation is an unearned gift received through
    faith (Romans 6:23). Trust in Christ and call upon Him for your
    salvation (Romans 10:9-13):

    How to be saved: christrose.news/salvation
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