From Newsgroup: alt.bible
========================================
Fri, 11 Sep 2026 01:27:43 -0700,
<
v4c7all08s7pq5dh8h8tt5hf8qvqsbneeq@4ax.com>
Roger Rhino <
not@my.home> wrote:
========================================
People see they want to see, everything
else is only symbolic.
A perfect summary of "Jehovah's Witness" heresy hermeneutics. If they
don't like what the Bible says, they call it a "parable" or a "symbol",
then claim "anything goes", and that they can ascribe whatever meaning
they want to it. They DEPEND on the Bible not meaning what it says, but
what they want it to mean:
========================================
Sat, 30 May 2026 17:21:59 -0400
<
u3ml1lt02mhft0u2vunsva47koumq4vkkf@4ax.com>
Satan's Witness (SW) James <
zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================
That is a parable. In a parable, anything goes.
...You can interpret the symbols any way you want.
========================================
LIES. Parables and symbols always teach truths which are consistent with
what the parable or symbol shows, not something which is the exact
opposite. This is how they try to work their way around what the Bible
says to promote a FALSE GOSPEL which tries to "comfort" men with the LIE
that they can reject Christ as Savior, and still escape eternal,
conscious torment without Him:
========================================
Thu, 11 Jun 2026 14:36:38 -0400,
<
dmbl2l1osulua32fhs2oksci4gt1dpbsfr@4ax.com>
Satan's Witness <
zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================
[Christrose wrote]
Everything you try to brainwash people with in here is a calculated
denial of the true gospel and an effort to lure men into the comfort of
believing they can reject Christ till death and still somehow either be
saved or not experience conscious eternal torment.
Now you got it.
======================================== ========================================
Sun, 25 May 2025 15:43:16 -0400
<
utf63k1dfrbnvt1j8147hjcgrala3eusuk@4ax.com>
"Sincerely", "soley from the Bible" and
"Honestly is my middle name"
James <
zebrabible@proton.me> wrote:
========================================
First of all, the Lake of Fire is SYMBOLIC, representing eternal
destruction. The proof is "death" and "hell" are tossed in there. (Rev
20:14)
rCo Where does the text say the fire is "SYMBOLIC"? Nowhere. The
text doesn't say the lake of fire is "symbolic". You do.
rCo When Revelation uses symbols, it explains what the symbols mean
(Revelation 1:20; Revelation 17:9rCo12). Revelation doesn't
explain what "lake of fire means", if it means something
other than what it states.
rCo "symbolic" never means "the exact opposite of what it states".
It means something which is consistent with what the symbol
points to (Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17). So even if "lake of
fire" were symbolic, it wouldn't point to the relative comfort
of ceasing to exist (see "Judas" example below).
rCo "Destruction" (olethera) in no way necessitates the concept of
annihilation, but points to continued existence in a state of
ruin. For example,
"Deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so
that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord" (1
Corinthians 5:5, ESV).
"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a
snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge
people into ruin and destruction" (1 Timothy 6:9, ESV).
The people are being plunged into ruin and destruction in this
life. They clearly continue to exist after the olethros.
When Jesus says of Judas,
"It would have been better for that man if he had not been born"
(Mark 14:21, ESV),
He speaks of a fate worse than birth and existence. If Judas were to
simply cease to exist, that would not be "worse" than having never
existed at all. It would be equal. Non-existence and never having
existed are functionally identical. But Jesus says Judas would have been better off never existing. That means his fate after this life involves something worse than ceasing to exist.
This makes sense only if Judas continues to exist after death in a
conscious state, experiencing judgment. The warning only has force if
his punishment is real, personal, and ongoing. Jesus is not talking
about momentary pain followed by annihilation. He is describing
something so fearsome that it makes mere existence a liability.
This confirms the same truth taught elsewhere. Jesus says of unrepentant
towns like Chorazin and Bethsaida,
rCLIt will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and
Sidon than for yourCY* (Matthew 11:22, ESV).
And again of Capernaum:
rCLIt will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of
Sodom than for yourCY* (Matthew 11:24, ESV).
This makes no sense if all are simply annihilated. Non-existence is not
a scalable punishment. One person canrCOt be rCLmore nonexistentrCY than another. Yet Jesus says some will experience a less tolerable judgment
than others. That only works if the punishment is conscious and has
degrees of severity.
This same reasoning appears again in Luke 12:47rCo48:
rCLIt will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of
Sodom than for yourCY* (Matthew 11:24, ESV).
This teaches degrees of punishment based on knowledge and response.
*Romans 2:5rCo6 confirms:
rCLYou are storing up wrath for yourselfrCa He will render to each
one according to his works.rCY
This implies proportional judgment. But if annihilation were the
outcome, then everyone receives the same ultimate result.
These statements don't make sense if everyone receives the same
"punishment" of "non-existence". It only make sense if the outcome is
not only conscious, but measured. A just judge takes into account
opportunity, knowledge, and response. The Judge of all the earth will do
right (Genesis 18:25). Scripture says His judgment has degrees.
That fact completely dismantles the idea that all unbelievers simply
stop existing. Annihilationism cannot account for more tolerable, severe beatings, or being judged according to worksrCobecause those require an ongoing experience.
Jesus said,
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous
into eternal life" (Matthew 25:46, ESV).
This shows an opposite but parallel outcome for the righteous and
unrighteous. The righteous go consciously into God's presence, with a
quality of existence defined as "eternal life". The unrighteous go away
from the presence of God into a quality of existence defined as "eternal punishment", which has varying degrees of severity.
Watchtower has claimed that the soul is extinguished at death, and that
the "punishment" is simply the state of non-being. That would mean
Judas, Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum would all be in the same equal
state as if they were never born. Jesus contradicts that. He shows they
will suffer varying degrees of punishment, and that it would have been
better for these people if they had never been born. That shows that non-existence is not what Jesus is talking about. Punishment means
conscious tormentrConot simply ceasing to exist.
Reconsider what Christ Himself said. He is the one who spoke more about
hell than anyone else in Scripture, and He warned of a place where the
"worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48, ESV).
ThatrCOs not metaphorical language for vanishing. ThatrCOs a solemn warning
of eternal judgmentrCoso serious that Christ gave His life to save us from it.
Can "death" be tossed in a literal fire?
"Death" means separation (Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23). There will be no
"death" or separation from God in the New Heavens and earth (Revelation
21:4). The only place where separation from God will exist after God
throws the damned and their abode into the lake of fire, is the lake of
fire. So yes, "death" (separation from God) will be quite literally
confined to a literal lake of literal fire when the damned are tossed
into it.
a literal fire?
rCo Define "literal fire". Do you mean to say that you would define
anything which does not operate on the principles of earth
physics as you know it, as "not literal"?
rCo If so, then the question becomes, by your definition of
"literal", is God the Father a "literal" being, since He is
spirit, and His body can't be burned in an earthly fire? Would
you not agree that of course He's a literal being? A soul or a
spirit is a literal being, even though it is not subject to the
flames of an earthly fire (Matthew 10:28).
rCo Does God not exist in a spiritual environment that is suitable
for His spiritual body? Isn't it true that He is no less
literally God, simply because He doesn't have the kind of
physical body you understand on earth, or operate in an
environment which is governed by the same earth-physics and
laws you understand?
rCo Thus, the "lake of fire" is a literal lake of fire, suitable
for burning whatever kind of bodies will be thrown into it, yet
without totally consuming them, just as the bush Moses saw
burned in flames without being consumed (Exodus 3:2).
Can "hell"?
Is Gehenna not the abode or holding place of the lost (Matthew 10:28;
Mark 9:43; Luke 12:5)? Yes it is. Why would God be incapable of throwing
it into the lake of fire?
Can they be tortured?
The Bible doesn't say Gehenna will be tortured. It says the damned souls
in the lake of fire will be tormented day and night and have no rest (Revelation 14:11; Revelation 20:10):
rCLAnd another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud
voice, rCLIf anyone worships the beast and its image and receives
a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the
wine of GodrCOs wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his
anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the
presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And
the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they
have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and
its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.rCYrCY
(Revelation 14:9rCo11, ESV)
--
Good News rCa
The crucifixion of Christ completely satisfied the debt of our sins
toward God (Colossians 2:14), which God verified by bringing Him back to
life (Romans 1:4). As a result, God is proven just when He forgives
believers (Romans 3:26) and delivers them from the approaching wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10). Eternal salvation is a free gift appropriated by
faith (Romans 6:23). If you believe in Him, call on the Lord for your deliverance (Romans 10:9-13):
How to be saved: christrose.news/salvation
--- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2