From Newsgroup: alt.bible
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Wed, 24 Jun 2026 12:23:41 -0400,
<
sogn3lhh9itd1ft462s1kt0dhg1bgl0qc6@4ax.com>
Satan's Witness <
zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================
On Tue, 23 Jun 2026 14:31:55 -0500, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:
The"Good News" is that God can remain just while delivering you from
eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire, through faith in Christ's
death and resurrection for your sins (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; 2
Thessalonians 1:8-9).
And all those millions of people who have died before Jesus came,
according to you, they are tortured forever because of their sins.
Where is the "just" God for them?
rCo Eternal, conscious torment IS the just consequence of sin
(Romans 6:23; Revelation 14:11; 20:10-15). The injustice would
be if people who deserve eternal conscious torment for their
sins, were allowed to cease to exist, simply because that
wouldn't be pleasant for them. You promote lies, a false,
emotional-support god of your own invention, and a false
gospel.
rCo Read Romans 4. The delivering seed was promised to Adam and Eve
(Genesis 3:15). Abraham was justified by faith in God's promise
of blessing, hundreds of years before the Law was even given
(Romans 4:13). Christ is the fulfillment of that promise. He is
the "seed" (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:16) who crushes the head
of the serpent. So no one who believed God's promise of a
coming seed (see Genesis 3:15), was consigned to the conscious,
eternal torment they deserved.
There isn't. They never knew Jesus, so thir 'gospel' was a different
one from today.The apostle Paul shows the REAL Bible teaching on that.
Almost everything you say is a demonstrable, twisted contradiction to
what the Bible plainly states. Romans 1 declares the justice of God in
the condemnation of pagans, since they deliberately suppress the
knowledge of God that's evident to them in creation (Romans 1:19-20).
- New King James
Romans 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
That Scripture shows the real justice from a loving God. As Paul also
said:
- New King James
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Idem. We've already been through this half a dozen times or more. You
may not agree, but to present the same refuted arguments over and over,
as if it's the first time I've heard them or that you've responded to
them, just confirms to me your pattern of intentional deceit. Observe again:
The Nature Of The Death Mentioned In Romans 6
(1) Romans 6:3-4rCo"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized
into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore
with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised
from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness
of life." (Romans 6:3-4 ESV)
This death is a baptism "into Christ Jesus." It is not the natural end
of physical life that every man experiences, but a specific spiritual
union. The result of this death is "newness of life," which is a present spiritual reality for the believer, not a post-mortem state for the unbeliever.
Bible: "baptized into Christ"
Lie: "physical expiration"
(2) Romans 6:5rCo"For if we have been united with him in a death like his,
we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."
(Romans 6:5 ESV)
This death is described as being "united with him." It is a shared
experience with Christ. Those who claim physical death alone frees a man
from sin's penalty ignore that this passage requires a union with the
person of Jesus Christ.
Bible: "united with him"
Lie: "united with the grave"
(3) Romans 6:6rCo"We know that our old self was crucified with him in
order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would
no longer be enslaved to sin." (Romans 6:6 ESV)
The "death" here is defined as the "old self" being "crucified with
him." The purpose is the cessation of slavery to sin in the present
life. Physical death does not "crucify the old self" with Christ; faith
in the gospel does.
Bible: "crucified with him"
Lie: "died in a hospital or bed"
(4) Romans 6:7-8rCo"For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now
if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with
him." (Romans 6:7-8 ESV)
While verse 7 states a general principle that death ends legal
obligations, verse 8 immediately qualifies this for the Christian
context: "if we have died with Christ." The freedom from sin described
in this chapter is predicated entirely upon being "with Christ."
Bible: "died with Christ"
Lie: "died alone in sin"
(5) Romans 6:11rCo"So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and
alive to God in Christ Jesus." (Romans 6:11 ESV)
We are commanded to "consider" or reckon ourselves dead to sin. A man
who has died physically cannot "consider" himself anything; this is an
act of the mind and heart of a living person who has placed their faith
in Jesus.
Bible: "consider yourselves dead to sin"
Lie: "be corpses in the ground"
The Purpose Of This Death Is Deliverance From Sin's Power
(1) Romans 6:12-13rCo"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies,
to make you obey their passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those
who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness." (Romans 6:12-13 ESV)
This death results in a choice of the will regarding "mortal bodies." If
the death mentioned were physical death, there would be no "mortal body"
left in which to resist sin. The passage is clearly speaking to living
people who have died to sin's authority through Christ.
Bible: "brought from death to life"
Lie: "staying dead to pay a debt"
(2) Romans 6:22-23rCo"But now that you have been set free from sin and
have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and
its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:22-23 ESV)
The "wages of sin" is deathrCothe very thing the legalist claims pays the debt. But the Bible contrasts this "wages" (what we earn) with the "free
gift" (what Christ gives). If physical death paid the debt of sin,
eternal life would be a receipt for payment, not a "free gift."
Bible: "free gift of God"
Lie: "payment through physical death"
Proposition: The death described in Romans 6 is not the physical death
of the body which all men suffer, but the spiritual crucifixion of the
old nature through union with Jesus Christ by faith. It is this union
alone that sets a person free from the slavery and penalty of sin.
So let me make it clear, the part that you don't get:
EVERYONE who wants eternal life MUST accept Jesus.
EVERYONE who wants eternal life MUST accept Jesus.
EVERYONE who wants eternal life MUST accept Jesus.
EVERYONE who wants eternal life MUST accept Jesus.
You're talking about someone you call "Jesus", but it's not the same
Jesus who is proclaimed by the Bible. The Jesus who is revealed in
Scripture is clearly declared to be "God", not "a god" (eisegesis).
He was both with God and was God (not "was a god") in the beginning
(John 1:1-2). In Him all the fullness of the godhead dwells in bodily
form (Colossians 2:9). He is our great God and Savior (Titus 2:13). He
is "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28). He received worship that angels
reject (Revelation 22:8-9; Matthew 14:33). The Jews attempted to stone
Him for making himself equal to God (John 10:33). "All things" were
created through Him, not all "other" things (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16).
He did not consider equality with God something to cling to, but emptied Himself and became obedient to provide an atonement for our sins
(Philippians 2:6-8). The disciples repeatedly equated Jesus Christ with
the "Kyrios" the OT attributed to YHWH (Romans 10:9-13; Philippians
2:11; 1 Corinthians 12:3).
You promote a false Jesus who can save no one, since only God could
become a man without sin, and only God can meet the infinite demands of
God's righteousness against our infinite sin.
Those who have died long before Jesus, never heard of him. So how is
it justice to torture them?
Idem. It's not my duty to disprove something you've never demonstrated
from the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible teach it would be unjust for
fallen, sinful mankind to come under God's condemnation, or experience eternal, conscious torment. That's you fabricating an emotional-support
god and worshiping your own lies.
To begin, given man's fall, God would have to cease to be just to let
anyone escape eternal conscious torment. It's only by providing a
propitiating atonement for our sin in the death of Christ, that He can
justly forgive and save anyone from ongoing condemnation (John 3; Romans 3).
The false gospel that leads people to conscious, eternal torment in the
lake of fire, is the lie that you can escape this justice without
relying exclusively on Christ's death and resurrection as the atonement
for your sins:
I guess you never will go right by the Bible. As I said multiple
times, NO ONE gets eternal life without going through Jesus. But you
keep forgetting that:
idem. You deny Jesus is God, which would therefore disqualify Him from providing a sinless substitute for or paying the infinite debt of our
sin. Further, you claim man's own death atones for his sins, by flat-out
lying and twisting an idiotic contradiction to almost everything Romans
6 actually says (see above).
-- King James
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the
life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
idem.
The Biblical Reality Of the lake of fire
Proposition 1: God is a God of love, but He is also a God of holy
justice who punishes sin, and the devil is the one punished in the lake
of fire, not the one in charge of it.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into
the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were,
and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation
20:10, ESV)
The argument that the devil is the god of torture contradicts the plain
statement of Scripture. The devil does not rule the lake of fire, nor
does he torture people there. He is cast into the lake of fire to be
tormented himself. God is the one who executes this righteous judgment.
Actually, your way is unrighteous judgment. For example, what about
all those people who died in ancient Egypt? They had many false gods
who they worshipped. Their view of the afterlife was not according to
the Bible. Yet you would have them tortured?
You demonstrate no such thing. Since the fall of man, justice calls for eternal, conscious torment, not for relief from it. If they believed in
the promise of the "seed", they were saved (Romans 4; Galatians 3;
Genesis 3:15). If they didn't, they get the eternal, conscious torment
they deserve.
Proposition 2: Jesus Christ taught that the lake of fire is a place of
conscious suffering and agony, not simply a cold, painless grave.
I never said that the Lake of Fire is a grave. You are getting that
mixed up with "hell". Hell is the grave. (Hades) For more proof, many
Bible translators when they ran into Hades, exchanged it for "grave"
or something similar. for example compare these 3:
-- King James
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see
corruption.
-- New King James
Acts 2:31 "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of
the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
CEV
David knew this would happen, and so he told us Christ would be raised
to life. He said God would not leave him in the grave or let his body
decay.
Thus hell= Hades= grave.
Hell is also tossed into the Lake of Fire and is tortured.
So these are tossed into the torture of the Lake of Fire:
Hell (grave), beast, death, etc. How are they tortured?
You promote confusion. The Bible teaches eternal, conscious torment in
the lake of fire for those who do not believe:
The Bible teaches eternal, conscious torment in the lake of fire for
those who do not believe:
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10, ESV)
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was
thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15, ESV)
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for
murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars,
their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which
is the second death. (Revelation 21:8, ESV)
he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into
the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in
the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the
smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest,
day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. (Revelation 14:10-11, ESV)
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into
the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' (Matthew 25:41,
ESV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into
eternal life. (Matthew 25:46, ESV)
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his
kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the
fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of
teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42, ESV)
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to
enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown
into hell, 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
(Mark 9:47-48, ESV)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the
presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, (2 Thessalonians
1:9, ESV)
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise
indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7, ESV)
Matthew 13:41-42 - The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will
gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and
throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping
and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42, ESV)
Yes, those things are done away with.
He reads "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth", and concludes
they will be "done away with". The weeping and gnashing of teeth will
not be "done away with". It will go on "day and night", "forever and
ever", so that they will be without "rest".
Mark 9:43 - And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better
for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to the lake of
fire, to the unquenchable fire. (Mark 9:43, ESV)
Why isn't there a lot of Christians maimed? Since we all sin, we are
supposed to cut out the sin. Esp a lot of castrations.
To begin, He said it would be "better" to cut off your hand than be
thrown into the Lake of fire. This supports the conclusion that going to
the lake of fire is worse than merely being separated from your physical
body. As bad as being separated from your body sounds, going to the lake
of fire is far worse.
Second, the command regarding the hand is conditional: "if" your hand
causes you to sin. Scripture systematically identifies that physical appendages are not the root cause of sin. Christ explains in Matthew
15:19, For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. A physical hand cannot act independently of a corrupt heart. Therefore, physical amputation fails
to fulfill the condition of Mark 9:43. Removing the hand leaves the true
cause of sin completely intact. A blind man can still lust, and a
handless man can still murder in his heart.
Jesus Christ spoke of the lake of fire as a fiery furnace and a place of
unquenchable fire. He specifically mentioned weeping and gnashing of
teeth. A person in a cold, painless, unconscious grave does not weep or
gnash their teeth. These are the actions of someone in conscious distress.
You are getting confused again. I never said the Lake of Fire was the
grave. Hell is the grave. And the Lake of Fire is not hell. (Hades)
The Lake of Fire represents the "second death". DEATH not life.
You are the one promoting confusion, since you deny that the lake of
fire means conscious eternal torment. It directly says they will suffer "torment", that this will occur "day and night", and that it will go on "forever and ever", so that they will be without "rest". This is not the condition of one who ceases to exist.
Proposition 3: The account of the rich man and Lazarus depicts a
literal, conscious existence in torment after death.
Luke 16:23-24 - And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes
and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out,
Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his
finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
(Luke 16:23-24, ESV)
Yes, we have gone over that a hundred times.
That we have, exposes your ongoing pattern and effort to avoid and
confuse the situation:
========================================
Mon, 8 Jun 2026 11:04:29 -0500,
<1106p6d$3bhsj$
1@christrose.eternal-september.org
Christ Rose <
usenet@christrose.news wrote: ========================================
Jesus did not say no Old Testament person went to heaven. That lie has
also been repeatedly refuted from Scripture. Jesus spoke there before
the cross. At that time, paradise was in Abraham's bosom. After He
ascended, paradise was moved to heaven.
You repeat the same, refuted, brain-washed lies over and over:
This claim was made before Jesus ascended. Paradise was in Abraham's
bosom until Christ ascended, then it was moved to heaven.
The Conscious Comfort of Old Testament Saints Before Christ's Resurrection
(1) Luke 16:22"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried." (Luke 16:22 ESV)
"CARRIED... TO ABRAHAM'S SIDE." Before the death and resurrection of
Jesus Christ, departed believers did not immediately ascend to the
highest heaven. Instead, they were carried by angels to a place of
conscious comfort, fellowship, and rest, referred to by our Lord as
"Abraham's side" (or "Abraham's bosom").
(2) Luke 23:43"And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will
be with me in paradise.'" (Luke 23:43 ESV)
"TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE." Jesus promised the dying thief
that they would be together in "Paradise" that very day. Since Jesus did
not ascend to the Father's throne until after His resurrection (John
20:17), this "Paradise" was the temporary place of comfort for the
righteous dead, located in the heart of the earth.
First Proposition: Before the resurrection of Christ, departed Old
Testament believers went to a place of conscious, happy rest called
Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, where they eagerly awaited the finished
work of the Messiah.
The Translation of Elijah and Enoch
(1) 2 Kings 2:11"And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots
of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up
by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11 ESV)
"ELIJAH WENT UP... INTO HEAVEN." The Bible records that God made
sovereign exceptions for certain Old Testament prophets, translating
them directly into His heavenly presence without experiencing physical
death.
(2) Hebrews 11:5"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see
death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he
was taken he was commended as having pleased God." (Hebrews 11:5 ESV)
"ENOCH WAS TAKEN UP." Just like Elijah, Enoch was taken directly by God
into His presence.
Second Proposition: While the general assembly of Old Testament saints
waited in Paradise, God made sovereign exceptions for Elijah and Enoch, translating them directly into His presence as a testimony to their faith.
The Emptying of Paradise at Christ's Ascension
(1) Ephesians 4:8-9"Therefore it says, 'When he ascended on high he led
a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.' (In saying, 'He
ascended,' what does it mean but that he had also descended into the
lower regions, the earth?)" (Ephesians 4:8-9 ESV)
"HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES." When Jesus Christ ascended into heaven
after His resurrection, He did not go alone. He went down into the lower regions (the Paradise of Hades), emptied it of the Old Testament saints
who were waiting there, and escorted them triumphantly into the highest
heaven.
(2) 2 Corinthians 12:2-4"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago
was caught up to the third heaven... and he heard things that cannot be
told, which man may not utter." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ESV)
"CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN... INTO PARADISE." The Apostle Paul makes
it clear that Paradise is no longer down in the heart of the earth, but
is now located in the "third heaven"the very presence of God's throne.
(3) Hebrews 11:39-40"And all these, though commended through their
faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had planned
something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made
perfect." (Hebrews 11:39-40 ESV)
"THAT APART FROM US THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." The Old Testament believers could not enter the final, perfected heavenly glory until the
blood of Jesus Christ was shed to pay for their sins. Once that
sacrifice was made, they were made perfect and ushered into heaven.
Third Proposition: At His glorious ascension, Jesus Christ relocated
Paradise from the heart of the earth to the highest heaven, leading the
Old Testament saints out of their temporary abode and into the immediate presence of God.
========================================
These points are brought
out:
-Hell (Hades) is within visual sight of Heaven. Thus people in Heaven
would see people being constantly tortured in hell. So much for peace
in Heaven!
Idem. See the "100 times" you admit we've already been over this, such
as the one cited above.
--What's Abraham doing in Heaven, when Jesus said that no one went to
Heaven?
idem.
--Those in the Lake of Fire are burning up alive, yet a DROP of water
would cool him down.
--Hades is the grave. There is no literal torturing going on in the
grave. It is cold, dark, and silent.
idem.
Even if one considers this account a parable, Jesus Christ never used
parables to teach falsehoods. Parables use real-life circumstances, such
as sowing seed or baking bread, to illustrate spiritual truths. Jesus
did not invent a mythical, false universe where people suffer after
death simply to make a point. The rich man was in conscious anguish in a
flame.
You forgot what a parable is:
Lies. Parabola, in the Greek, is a compound word meaning "along side"
and "to throw". Wikipedia shows contemporary, secular usage of the word,
not theological Greek usage of the Bible. Nevertheless, even the
secular, contemporary, English definition you cherry-picked, exposes
your effort to contradict the plain teaching of Luke 16:
"A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, that
illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. It differs
from a fable in that fables employ animals, plants, inanimate objects,
or forces of nature as characters, whereas parables have human
characters.[1] A parable is a type of metaphorical analogy.[2]"
(Wikipedia)
Metaphorical= "Being metaphorical means describing something
figuratively or symbolically, rather than literally."
(Wikipedia)
Even by your cherry-picked secular definition, a parable illustrates "principles". If one wanted to convey the principle that men will not
suffer eternal, conscious torment in the lake of fire (as you contend),
the last parable Luke 16 would tell, would be one where people
experience conscious torment or comfort after they die physically.
Meanwhile, nothing in Luke 16 says or necessitates that must be a
"parable" rather than a literal account. When Jesus spoke in parables,
he never used people's names, or referred to actual, historical Bible characters.
Further, the Bible repeatedly and directly says Jesus spoke in parables
when He spoke in parables. For example:
Luke 5:36
He spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new
garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and
the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall
they not both fall into the ditch?
Luke 8:4
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of
every city, he spake by a parable:
Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom
of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and
hearing they might not understand.
Luke 12:16
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich
man brought forth plentifully:
Luke 13:6
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luke 14:7
And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked
how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Luke 15:3
And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to
pray, and not to faint;
Luke 18:9
And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that
they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 19:11
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he
was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God
should immediately appear.
Luke 20:9
Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted
a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country
for a long time.
Luke 21:29
And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Conclusion: Parables teach truths and principles that are consistent
with the story, not which contradict the story. Your lies contradict the principles taught in Luke 16. A parable which shows that men experience conscious torment or comfort after physical death (as Luke 16 does),
does NOT teach the principle that men do NOT experience conscious
torment or comfort after death. Your lies flatly and obviously
contradict what the Bible plainly states.
Proposition 4: The Lake of Fire is the final, literal destination for
the wicked, which is entirely distinct from the temporary grave.
OK.
Which means men don't cease to exist when they die physically. They
experience literal, conscious, eternal torment, have no rest "day or
night", and are tormented "forever and ever". Nothing about that is
consistent with the lie that men will NOT experience conscious torment
after they die physically, but will simply cease to exist.
Revelation 20:13-15 - And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death
and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each
one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were
thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of
fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he
was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13-15, ESV)
The argument that all people get out of the lake of fire misrepresents
the Scripture.
I never said that. The Lake of Fire is PERMANATE. You are confusing it
with HELL. Hell does empty out its dead. (Rev 20:13)
Hades, which is the temporary holding place of the dead,
gives up the dead so that they may stand before the Great White Throne
Judgment. Those whose names are not in the book of life do not go free.
They are cast into the eternal lake of fire.
You again forgot that the inspired apostle Paul said that death erases
all sins. Thus when people get out of hell, they are sinless. My God
is just, and would not judge them right then. The churches sadistic, torturious god would.
Lies. See "The Nature Of The Death Mentioned In Romans 6" above. You've already admitted we've been through that 100 times. Yet you still keep promoting the same, dumb, refuted lies about Romans 6. You contradict
almost everything that passage says with your lies.
Proposition 5: The torment of the wicked in the final judgment is
eternal and without rest.
Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and
ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast
and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. (Revelation
14:11, ESV)
OK.
Then that's what happens. You claim that means the cease to exist and do
not experience conscious torment. To say "OK" to that, then claim men
don't experience conscious eternal torment is a self-evident contradiction.
The Bible clearly states that those under God's wrath have no rest, day
or night, and their torment goes up forever and ever. It is impossible
to reconcile this clear statement with the idea that the wicked merely
cease to exist or rest peacefully in a painless grave.
See above. I never said the Lake of Fire was the grave. (hell)
Actually, the grave (hell) is tossed into it, which showed that it is destroyed for all time. Hence there will be no more graves. Which also
means that death is done away with.
You promote obvious lies. It doesn't say death and hell are "destroyed"
in the lake of fire. It says they are cast into it. Further, the word "destroy", in the Bible, does not mean "cease to exist". It means to
exist in a state of ruin. This has been demonstrated repeatedly from
many Scriptures:
The biblical terms translated "destroy" or "destruction" do not mean to
cease to exist, but rather to exist in a state of ruin, loss, or
separation from its proper purpose.
"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them,
does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one
that is lost, until he finds it?" (Luke 15:4, ESV)
"Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not
light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds
it?" (Luke 15:8, ESV)
"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is
found." (Luke 15:24, ESV)
"you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh,
so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord." (1 Corinthians
5:5, ESV)
In the Greek Scriptures, the word for "lost" in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and lost son is the exact same word translated
elsewhere as "destroy" or "perish" (apollumi). The lost sheep did not
cease to exist; it was physically present in the wilderness, but it was
ruined for its master's use. The lost coin did not turn to dust; it
remained in the house, but was out of service. The prodigal son was
"lost" and "dead" to his father, yet he was actively eating with pigs. Similarly, when the Apostle Paul speaks of delivering a man to Satan for
the "destruction" (olethros) of his flesh, he does not mean the physical annihilation of his body, but the ruin of his fleshly desires and the chastisement of his physical form.
To "destroy" something in biblical terms is not to end its being, but to
ruin its well-being. The destruction of the wicked is their eternal
exclusion from the presence of GodrCoexisting in a permanent state of spiritual ruin, separation, and usefulness.
--
Good News rCa
Jesus is God: christrose.news/Jesus-God.
To be saved, one must believe the only true gospel: Christ died for our
sins and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:8-9).
Every false gospel leads individuals to conscious, eternal torment in
the lake of fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; John 3:18-19; Revelation
14:9-11; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:14-15). Denying that Jesus is
God means dying in your sins (John 8:24).
The crucifixion of Christ completely satisfied the debt of our sins
toward God (Colossians 2:14), which God verified by bringing Him back to
life (Romans 1:4). As a result, God is proven just when He forgives
believers (Romans 3:26) and delivers them from the approaching wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10). Eternal salvation is a free gift appropriated by
faith (Romans 6:23). If you believe in Him, call on the Lord for your deliverance (Romans 10:9-13):
How to be saved: christrose.news/salvation
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