From Newsgroup: alt.bible
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Sat, 06 Jun 2026 10:18:06 -0400,
<
sm782ldjgqgqcrokm7ue7s24co0mobr2fg@4ax.com>
Satan's Witness <
zebrabible@proton.me> wrote: ========================================
On Sun, 31 May 2026 08:25:31 -0500, Christ Rose
<usenet@christrose.news> wrote:
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Sat, 30 May 2026 17:21:59 -0400,
<u3ml1lt02mhft0u2vunsva47koumq4vkkf@4ax.com>
Satan's Witness <zebrabible@proton.me> wrote:
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(2) Luke 16:22-24
"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'" (Luke 16:22-24 ESV)
Second Proposition: Those who have died physically remain fully conscious after death. They can see, feel, speak, and remember.
You mean like Ps 146:3,4?
3. Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom
there is no help.
4. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very
day his thoughts perish.
So if they can feel, speak, and remember, how did they do those
without thoughts? That's some trick!
Jesus wasn't contradicting anything Psalm 146:3-4 taught when he taught
that men go immediately into conscious torment or comfort upon physical
death (Luke 16). This is how I know you are trying to promote a lie
about Psalm 146:3-4. Instead of understanding it in a way that
harmonizes with what Jesus taught, you have to pretend Luke 16 and
Matthew 10:28 don't exist, and like Psalm 146:3-4 teaches something
which contradicts what those passages plainly show: men go right into conscious torment or comfort upon physical death.
That is a parable. In a parable, anything goes.
rCo Nowhere does Luke 16 say Jesus was speaking in parables.
rCo The Bible consistently mentions it when He does (e.g. Mark
4).
rCo No parable that the Bible identifies as a parable, ever
mentions people by name, including Old Testament saints. Luke
16 does.
Conclusion: there is zero inspired evidence that Jesus was speaking in parables in Luke 16.
Lies. Parables teach truths, not lies.
IF (and it's not), Luke 16 were a parable, it clearly teaches conscious suffering or comfort after physical death, not the contrary idea that
men simply cease to exist after physical death, and therefore do not experience ongoing, conscious comfort or torment.
For Jesus to talk about how men experience conscious torment or comfort
after physical death, as a motivation for people to avoid such
consequences through faith before they die, shows that your contrary
claim men do not experience conscious torment or comfort after they die,
is a Bible-contradicting lie.
It entirely points to the fact
the soul survives the death of the body and either goes to a place of
torment or comfort. Nothing in this passage suggests cessation of
existence after death.
It makes a moral point
using symbols. You can interpret the symbols any way you want.
Thus you disclose your heretical hermeneutic. You think if you say the
word "parable", that means you get to make it mean whatever you want.
Pure lies.
That goes for you also.
I'm not the one stating that parables or symbols mean the exact opposite
of what they say. You are.
This question was posed: What is the meaning of parable in one word?
"AI Overview
An allegory or a fable. "
Merriam-Webster..".a short fictitious story..."
"Synonyms for parable:
allegory
fable
tale"
"A parable is a short, fictitious narrative used to teach a moral
lesson, doctrine, standard of conduct, or religious principle."
(Encyclopedia Britannica)
By your own, secular, cherry-picked definition, the purpose of a parable is:
to teach a moral lesson
to teach doctrine
to teach a standard of conduct
to teach a religious principle
Now, what "doctrine" does Jesus teach when he warns men in Luke 16 that
when they die they will either experience conscious torment or comfort?
A. that when men die they will either experience conscious
torment or comfort.
B. that when men die, they will NOT experience conscious torment
or comfort, but will cease to exist.
By what kind of strong delusion do you propose that warning people about conscious torment or comfort after physical death should be understood
to mean that men will NOT be conscious after physical death, but
instead, will simply cease to exist, and will NOT experience conscious
torment or comfort after death?
Where is Abraham? In Heaven? NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE:
-- Revised Standard
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from
heaven, the Son of man.
Thus Abraham, King David, Moses, Ezekiel, etc. NOT ONE OT PERSON WENT
TO HEAVEN.
You repeat the same, refuted, brain-washed lies over and over:
This claim was made before Jesus ascended. Paradise was in Abraham's
bosom until Christ ascended, then it was moved to heaven.
The Conscious Comfort of Old Testament Saints Before Christ's Resurrection
(1) Luke 16:22rCo"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried." (Luke 16:22 ESV)
"CARRIED... TO ABRAHAM'S SIDE." Before the death and resurrection of
Jesus Christ, departed believers did not immediately ascend to the
highest heaven. Instead, they were carried by angels to a place of
conscious comfort, fellowship, and rest, referred to by our Lord as
"Abraham's side" (or "Abraham's bosom").
(2) Luke 23:43rCo"And he said to him, 'Truly, I say to you, today you will
be with me in paradise.'" (Luke 23:43 ESV)
"TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE." Jesus promised the dying thief
that they would be together in "Paradise" that very day. Since Jesus did
not ascend to the Father's throne until after His resurrection (John
20:17), this "Paradise" was the temporary place of comfort for the
righteous dead, located in the heart of the earth.
First Proposition: Before the resurrection of Christ, departed Old
Testament believers went to a place of conscious, happy rest called
Paradise or Abraham's Bosom, where they eagerly awaited the finished
work of the Messiah.
The Translation of Elijah and Enoch
(1) 2 Kings 2:11rCo"And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots
of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up
by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11 ESV)
"ELIJAH WENT UP... INTO HEAVEN." The Bible records that God made
sovereign exceptions for certain Old Testament prophets, translating
them directly into His heavenly presence without experiencing physical
death.
(2) Hebrews 11:5rCo"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he
was taken he was commended as having pleased God." (Hebrews 11:5 ESV)
"ENOCH WAS TAKEN UP." Just like Elijah, Enoch was taken directly by God
into His presence.
Second Proposition: While the general assembly of Old Testament saints
waited in Paradise, God made sovereign exceptions for Elijah and Enoch, translating them directly into His presence as a testimony to their faith.
The Emptying of Paradise at Christ's Ascension
(1) Ephesians 4:8-9rCo"Therefore it says, 'When he ascended on high he led
a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.' (In saying, 'He
ascended,' what does it mean but that he had also descended into the
lower regions, the earth?)" (Ephesians 4:8-9 ESV)
"HE LED A HOST OF CAPTIVES." When Jesus Christ ascended into heaven
after His resurrection, He did not go alone. He went down into the lower regions (the Paradise of Hades), emptied it of the Old Testament saints
who were waiting there, and escorted them triumphantly into the highest heaven.
(2) 2 Corinthians 12:2-4rCo"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago
was caught up to the third heaven... and he heard things that cannot be
told, which man may not utter." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ESV)
"CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN... INTO PARADISE." The Apostle Paul makes
it clear that Paradise is no longer down in the heart of the earth, but
is now located in the "third heaven"rCothe very presence of God's throne.
(3) Hebrews 11:39-40rCo"And all these, though commended through their
faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had planned
something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made
perfect." (Hebrews 11:39-40 ESV)
"THAT APART FROM US THEY SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." The Old Testament believers could not enter the final, perfected heavenly glory until the
blood of Jesus Christ was shed to pay for their sins. Once that
sacrifice was made, they were made perfect and ushered into heaven.
Third Proposition: At His glorious ascension, Jesus Christ relocated
Paradise from the heart of the earth to the highest heaven, leading the
Old Testament saints out of their temporary abode and into the immediate presence of God.
--
Good News rCa
Jesus is God: christrose.news/Jesus-God.
The true, saving gospel strictly mandates that Christ died for our sins
and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:8-9). All
other gospels are completely false and carry people into conscious,
eternal torment in the lake of fire (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9; John 3:36; Revelation 14:10-11; Revelation 19:20; Revelation 20:10-15). You will certainly die in your sins if you deny Jesus is God (John 8:58).
Christ paid our entire sin debt to God on the cross (Colossians 2:14),
and God gave absolute proof of this by raising Him from the dead (Romans
1:4). God now pardons our sins without compromising His own
righteousness (Romans 3:26), saving us from His coming judgment (1 Thessalonians 1:10). This is a completely free gift reserved for those
who trust in Christ (Romans 6:23). Believe in your heart and call out to
the Lord to be saved (Romans 10:9-13):
How to be saved: christrose.news/salvation
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