3rd post - last portion of transcript with Elon Musk
From
a425couple@a425couple@hotmail.com to
alt.astronomy,rec.aviation.military,alt.economics,seattle.politics on Thu Aug 6 08:47:37 2026
From Newsgroup: alt.astronomy
Starlink, Geopolitical Power, and the War in Ukraine
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, the singularity approaching. LetrCOs go back
more immediately to the here and now. WerCOve talked about concentration
of control in your companies. YourCOve made a very good case for why you should have it. You also have, through Starlink, incredible geopolitical power. I mean, IrCOm one of your customers. Excellent product. But without them, the Ukrainians would have been in serious, serious trouble. And
when yourCo
Elon Musk: Yes, the Ukrainian government has publicly thanked Starlink
many times for being instrumental in defending Ukraine.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: And you recently decided to prevent the Russians
in the occupied territories from having access to Starlink.
Elon Musk: Well, no, we were never at any point selling Starlink to
Russians.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But they were grabbing it, right? They were using
it. YourCOve now stopped them from doing that.
Elon Musk: Well, they essentially got Starlink units that they ordered
through Ukraine and then smuggled them into Eastern Ukraine where the
Russians are, and were then using them in some cases for attacks. Now,
in order to address this, we worked with the Ukrainian government to
create a whitelist of approved Starlink terminals. Now, this has some downsides because a whole bunch of people who were just innocent users
of Starlink and just trying to access the internet for work or for
education now donrCOt have Starlink.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: These are geopolitical decisions of consequence.
How do you feel about having that power? You could determine the outcome
of wars. How does that feel? And is it right that you should have that
power?
Elon Musk: Well, IrCOm not sure werCOre determining the ultimate outcome of the war in Ukraine. I do hope that thererCOs some sort of peace agreement reached soon, because for 2 or 3 years now, the border has barely moved,
and every day there are lots of people dying at the front line. I think thererCOs a lot of wishful thinking here of people saying, rCLWell, Russia should completely withdraw,rCY etc., but this is not realistic.
I really think there needs to be a peace that is pragmatic about this.
What I think would be terrible is if thererCOs another 3 years of people
dying senselessly at the front lines. You have to say, rCLHow do you
explain to the children of the men that are dying at the front lines?rCY
On the Russian side too, by the way, theyrCOre being conscripted and sent there.
I am quite offended by fancy diplomats who have 7-course dinners in
luxurious places while people are dying at the front lines, and who pontificate about how Russia should withdraw, but theyrCOre not going to. RussiarCOs not going to withdraw. So there really needs to be an accepted peace along those lines.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: And do you think itrCOs your responsibility to play
a role in tipping the scales towards what you see as the right way to peace?
Elon Musk: IrCOve been advocating peace for a long time. I posted a few
years ago that there really needs to be some concession here to Russia.
This is not me being pro-Russia, IrCOm just being pragmatic, or people
will die for years with nothing achieved. And that is exactly what happened.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I donrCOt know, I mean, the Ukrainians are doing
pretty well right now with their incredible drone capacity hitting
inside Russia. And the general consensus is that the balance of the war
is shifting. But my point is not so much about whatrCOs rightrCo
Elon Musk: Ukraine is not going to retake those territories. It is not
going to happen.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: My interest is really on whether you think, given
that you have through Starlink an incredible power, whether itrCOs
appropriate that you should wield it. ThatrCOs quite rare that an
individual actor has such power by turning on and off a capability to
shape conflict.
Elon Musk: Well, is there something you think I should do differently?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I mean, I think you were right to support Ukraine.
I think that, as it wonrCOt surprise you, I think that the Russian
aggression was, for many, many reasons, an appalling aggression. And I
think that that was an important thing that you did.
Elon Musk: Yeah. I mean, I did a very deep dive into the background of
that conflict to understand exactly what was going on. And IrCOm reminded
of the old adage that there are no angels in war.
DOGE, Domestic Politics, and the Role of Government
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs a similar tone, I think, about domestic
politics where yourCOve played a big role domestically, politically here.
You spent a lot of money on Donald TrumprCOs reelection. After the
election, you got very actively involved, through Doge, you tried to cut
a lot of spending, reshape the government. How do you feel that it
wasnrCOt hugely successful in the sense that there wasnrCOt nearly as much spending cut as you tried? As you look back on that, do you regret
getting so involved in politics? Do you think it was a good thing to do?
Elon Musk: I think I got a little too involved in politics, got carried
away, frankly. The goal with the Doge stuff was to try to do something
about the deficit, which is massive, where the interest payments exceed
the amount of money spent on the Department of War. Basically, if you
add up all the money spent on what is now the Department of War and intelligence in the US, that is smaller than the interest payments on
the debt.
So I thought, well, we need to take a close look at spending and make
sure that money is being spent in sensible ways and that it is not
wasted or spent on fraudulent activities. And I got a lot of flak for
this, obviously.
But people donrCOt understand just how simple it was for the Doge team to approve payments. We literally just asked to have the contact
information of the recipient, or some evidence that money was going to
its intended purpose. But over and over, we were told, oh, we need to
wire money for some sort of important cause in Africa. And werCOre like,
okay, but the wiring instructions are to Deloitte Touche in Washington,
D.C., not to Africa. So we would like to send the money to Africa. Can
you please connect us with the recipients so we can send them the money directly? And then we get silence.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: We donrCOt need to relitigate DOGE. I have no doubt
that thererCOs a lot of waste in the US government.
Elon Musk: I think probably much worse than anyone could possibly imagine.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think it is a fair criticism that the way
you shut down a whole bunch of programs probably, in fact, certainly
caused unnecessary suffering. I mean, norCo you donrCOt buy that at all?
Elon Musk: It caused a lot of complaining.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You donrCOt buy the idea that anybodyrCo to put it really crudely and simplyrCo any kid in Africa died because of the
suddenness with whichrCo
Elon Musk: Zero.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I just donrCOt think thatrCOs right. I mean, IrCOve had people reporting in Africa whorCo
Elon Musk: How many NGOs are there that could step in? Bear in mind, it happened quickly. And there are literally tens of thousands of NGOs.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Not everyone functions as fast as you do. If
funding is cut off for antiretrovirals overnight and it just stops, then people will die when they donrCOt have access to them. And it justrCo
Elon Musk: No, only if they cannot get funding for that. But the Gates Foundation has $50 billion. What about them? What about any one of a
number of organizations? What about MacKenzie Bezos? She gave away $50 billion. What about that?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: LetrCOs be practical. In many of these countries,
USAID was the biggest funder. But I donrCOt want to have a conversation
about this.
Elon Musk: USAID was a political organization.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: It may also have been that, but it was the biggest funder of healthcare systems. It was a very strong funder of regime
change. And there may well be benefits from having changedrCo
Elon Musk: Also, USAID funding was not stopped. It was moved to the
State Department.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: It was stopped. There were huge numbers of things
shut down in Africa that wererCo
Elon Musk: No, there were claims of this. These claims are false.
TheyrCOre nonsense and absolute nonsense. When funding is stopped for fraudulent organizations, do you think theyrCOre going to say, rCLPlease
keep funding the fraudrCY? Or do you think theyrCOre going to come up with a sad story that sounds sympathetic in order to get the funding restored? Obviously, it will be the latter. And thatrCOs exactly what they did. But
zero died because of that.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs what I would take issue with. I actually
have a lot of sympathy for the change of the aid regime that the US
under the Trump administration has precipitated. However, I think the
pace and the suddenness with which it happened will almost certainly
have caused unnecessary suffering and deaths. And I think both of those
can be true.
Elon Musk: No, I think thatrCOs totally false.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, well, letrCOsrCo
Elon Musk: And obviously false because the amount of funding werCOre
talking about is far less than what can be supported via foundations
like the Gates Foundation or MacKenzie BezosrCOs foundation. SherCOs given away tens of billions of dollars. The Gates Foundation has tens of
billions of dollars. They are capable of acting very quickly. And if
they didnrCOt, I would say theyrCOre equally responsible.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I see.
Elon Musk: Okay. Obviously.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right. Fair point.
Elon Musk: Zero people died because of drugs.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I hear you loud and clear. Zero. I hear you loud
and clear.
Elon Musk: Obviously.
Stepping Back from DOGE and Views on the Trump Administration
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Domestically, you stepped away from DOGE. It was
hard to do what you were trying to do, as yourCOve just explained. But
this administration has gone in directions that I suspect you were not expecting two and a half years ago.
Elon Musk: The war on Iran. IrCOm not going to agree with everything any administration does.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you disappointed by this administration?
Elon Musk: No, I think this administration, on balance, is excellent. No administration is perfect, but itrCOs vastly better than the alternative.
Europe, Immigration, and Free Speech
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Can we talk about Europe, a place that you are
very, very focused on?
Elon Musk: IrCOm not that focused on Europe.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think judging by your posts, yourCOre pretty
concerned about Europe. You supportrCo
Elon Musk: I mean, once in a while I post something.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs reasonably frequently, itrCOs not once in a while. But IrCOm genuinely interested in this as someone who lives in
Europe, lives in London. You paint a picturerCo well, first of all, you support not just the populist right but the far right, in fact very
fringe parties in some countries.
Elon Musk: No, I support the normal people. What do you call the far
right falsely?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You think that is the normal person? Okay.
Elon Musk: Yes. Literally, you could go back 10 or 15 years, and these policies were completely normal. In fact, one of the things I think is
funny is to take a speech from Obama and Hillary and then go to someone
who is on what I call the lunatic left, and say, rCLWhat do you think of
the speech by Trump?rCY And theyrCOll say, rCLOh wow, herCOs the worst person ever.rCY And then you say, rCLActually, that was a speech by Obama,rCY or rCLActually, that was a speech by Hillary.rCY
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I agree that the center of gravity in this country
has shifted, certainly in the Democratic Party shifted to the left, but thatrCOs not what IrCOm talking about. IrCOm talking about people like Rupert Low.
Elon Musk: ItrCOs actually just normal people. ItrCOs just normal people.
And here are the principles rCo tell me which of these sound terrible:
that we should have secure borders, that we should have safe cities,
that we should have sensible spending. Which of those three are
far-right fringe? And I would like to admonish you and the media for the absurd characterization of the far right. It is false and misleading and nonsense. Please keep this part in.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: WerCOll keep all of this in. But let merCo
Elon Musk: DonrCOt cut this part.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let me push back on that. Because it is nonsense.
Elon, you have close to 250 million followers on X. You say things like
rCo and IrCOm quoting you rCo rCLCivil war in Britain is inevitable. Just a question.rCY
Elon Musk: Yes.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: When were you last in the UK?
Elon Musk: A few years ago.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Exactly. I live there. IrCOm there the whole time.
That is nonsense.
Elon Musk: You live a cloistered existence.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, I donrCOt, actually. And the numbers also
disprove what you say. All the numbers about crime rCo London is a much
safer city than any city in the United States. Violent crime in the UK
is not where you think it is. In fact, itrCOs coming down. You have
painted, and because you have so many followers, so many Americans
believe it, a kind of view that Europe and the UK are overrun with
terrifying Muslim immigrants. ThererCOs rape on every corner. ThererCOs a
sort of civilizational destruction.
Elon Musk: I havenrCOt said any of those things.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, you said civil war in Britain is inevitable.
Elon Musk: And yes, if current trends continue, it is.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Why?
Elon Musk: Well, if you have a large and growing, rapidly growing, group
of people whose beliefs are antithetical to Western beliefs, at some
point there will be a reckoning. They will try to implement their views,
and those who oppose it will oppose it, and thatrCOs what you call civil
war. And obviously this is the trend. And you absolutely do live in a cloistered existence. And if yourCOd like, we can go on a tour of Britain.
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(Full Transcript)
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Sure, IrCOm very happy to come on a tour of Britain.
You come see my country that I live in all the time and that you havenrCOt been to in a few years.
Elon Musk: IrCOve been there literally 100 times.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when was the last time?
Elon Musk: A few years ago.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You know why this exercises me? Because you have
really shaped opinion about the UK. So many Americans I come across will
say rCo and I just had one the other day rCo rCLOh, LondonrCOs such a dangerous
place. How can you live there? There are grooming gangs everywhere.
ThererCOs violence everywhere.rCY This is a picture that people get from things that you post or that are posted on X.
For example, your posting for 48 hours of Citizen Vigilante, that film
which paints a dystopianrCo IrCOve watched it. I watched it yesterday. ItrCOs not a very good movie, but it also paints a dystopian picture of Europe,
and it glorifies vigilante violence. It glorifies the murdering of a
Muslim immigrant family. I honestly think that it is irresponsible for
you to put that up on X.
Elon Musk: I think itrCOs a movie and itrCOs worth watching.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre clearly suggesting Europe is a dystopian
place and yourCo
Elon Musk: Yes. I mean, why arenrCOt you doing more to fight censorship in Europe? I seem to be doing nothing to fight censorship in Europe.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs not true.
Elon Musk: There are people in prison in the UK for social media posts.
Do you think thatrCOs appropriate?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. And werCOve written editorials against it.
Elon Musk: Okay, great.
Europe, Immigration, and Media Trust
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Then thatrCOs the sort of thing that I think is bad.
And I think if yourCo And I agree with you, but I donrCOt think you have to glorify vigilante violence and kind of post the things that you are
doing and paint an entirely inaccurate picture of Europe.
Elon Musk: I donrCOt think it is.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: We should do a tour of the UK.
Elon Musk: Yes. And one of Brussels too.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because the UK has actually been very good at integrating immigrants. The UK is very effective at doing that. There
are problems. IrCOm the first to admit that there are problems.
Elon Musk: Yes, there are major problems.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: There are problems, but it is notrCo it really is
not what you are describing to or suggesting to your 240 million followers.
Elon Musk: I think it is.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: And I think thererCOs a problem.
Elon Musk: No, I think IrCOm spot on.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, werCOll have torCo
Elon Musk: And thatrCOs why you have freedom of speech, or at leastrCo
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, freedom of speech allows people to say
things that are wrong, but your point is not that. YourCOre not just
saying I have every right to say what I want. YourCOre saying you know, I
am right about Europe, and I really donrCOt think you are.
Elon Musk: I think I am.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you will find that most people in Europe,
or many people in Europe, donrCOt think yourCOre right about it. But letrCOs come to that because the media keeps ignoring whatrCOsrCo
Elon Musk: rCoignoring reality.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I donrCOt think thatrCOs true either. I reallyrCo
Elon Musk: rCoand theyrCOre programmed by the TV and conventional media.
Why Focus on EuroperCOs Problems?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why are yourCo this is, I guess, even to me sort
of the bigger picture questionrCo why do you focus on this? Why are you interested in it? Because on the one hand, we started this conversation
and you described to me this extraordinarily transformative, amazing,
sort of civilizational-changing stuff thatrCOs happening in the next 10
years. And yet yourCOre also an ongoing participant in the worst kind of tribalism, the cesspit of social media. How does that fit? TheyrCOre two
very different views of the world.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I donrCOt think theyrCOre inconsistent.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why do you do the latter one, the tribalism? I
mean, people say that yourCOre a racist. People say that there are all
kinds of things said about you which IrCOm sure you would disagree with.
But I just donrCOt understand what is the motivation for doing that. Are
you fomentingrCo
Elon Musk: My partner is half Indian, and I have 4 children with her.
One of them was named after a famous Indian physicist. So I would say
IrCOm not racist. And also, if you look at the people that are employed at
my companies, we have senior executives of all races. I donrCOt think thererCOs any racism there.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Are you anti-Muslim?
Elon Musk: I am against havingrCo if people are coming to a country with antithetical views, I am against that. IrCOm against rape and murder. IrCOm against the imposition of rules and laws that are contrary to what werCOve come to accept in the West. And I think itrCOs a crying shame that the
sort of traditional media like you donrCOt recognize this.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: First of all, I think that you hugely exaggerate
the challenges that Europe faces. Secondly, in areas I completely agree
with you. I think that the constraints on freedom of speech in the UK in certain areas are problematic. What worries me is that the people you
are supporting are really quite vile people in some areas. Like some
members of the AfD, Alice Weidel, whom IrCOve met, is a perfectly
thoughtful person. But in her party are some real neo-Nazis, some
really, really awful people. And your blanket support of this kind of
party with 240 million followers means that you have a power in Europe
that I think perhaps you donrCOt realize the scale of impact you have.
Elon Musk: I hope I am having a bigger impact.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But why? Why should you? Why should you be able to
shape European politics? You donrCOt even live there.
Elon Musk: I think of it as the West collectively.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you see why this makes people think that
this man who has all this powerrCo herCOs the worldrCOs richest manrCo he thinks
he has a right to influence our politics? ThatrCOs why, you know, we
started this conversation saying superlatives. ItrCOs why people loathe
you. I mean, some people do loathe you.
Elon Musk: Yes, some people do.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But do you understand why? Do you think what
yourCOre doing is helpful for Western democracy?
Elon Musk: Maybe some people do loathe me.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: IrCo
Elon Musk: And thatrCOs probably truerCo I donrCOt care. But the fact that, as you pointed out, a quarter billion people follow me is that I think a
lot more people actually like me than donrCOt. And I think a lot more
people hate you and the media more than you realize. Do you realize the
media is despised? Do you realize that the view of journalists isrCo a favorable view of journalists is like 15%.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I do know that in the United States.
Elon Musk: So the shoe is on the other foot. They hate you. They hate
you far more than they hate me.
Trust in Media and Journalism
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think there is certainly a loss of trust in journalism. I think in part there have been mistakes by journalists and journalism. I totally acknowledge that. But I also think that the kind
of polarized environment, particularly on social media, fostered by the
kinds of things you are pushing on X, actually helps this, makes it worse.
Elon Musk: I donrCOt think so. I think yourCOre the problem, the media. And speaking of loathing, yourCOre loathed far more than I am, and you donrCOt seem to even realize that.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think very few people know who I am relative to
you, so I donrCOt think I play in the same game.
Elon Musk: The media collectivelyrCo yourCOre hated. Do you even know that? You probably donrCOt.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I like to think that IrCOm aware of my own personal shortcomings and The EconomistrCOs shortcomings and our worldview shortcomings. But what we stand for, as you know, is liberal values, traditional classical liberal values, where we worry about
concentrations of power and we believe in the individual and the dignity
of the individual, and individual freedom. I firmly believe that. And I
have long thought that you were a classical liberal. Classical liberal,
J.S. Mill, limited government, individual freedom.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I agree with that.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But when I read what you post on your feed, I
sometimes wonder whether you really do believe in that.
Elon Musk: I literally said, look, I believe in safe cities, secure
borders, and sensible spending with respect to government. That doesnrCOt
make me right-wing at all, in the least.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Does the US or do European countries score better
on those?
Elon Musk: The US is better.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: No. Safe citiesrCo much more dangerous in the US
than the UK. Sensible spendingrCo bigger deficit here, out of control. You managedrCo yourCOve failed to reduce it. Secure bordersrCo now under the Trump administration, I agree with you. Before, not. But on 2 out of 3, unequivocally Europe is in a better place. Yet you seem to paint a
picture of Europe being a hellhole.
Elon Musk: I donrCOt think EuroperCOs a hellhole.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: OK, we can agree on something.
Elon Musk: When did I ever say that?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, the picture you paint of Europe on X is notrCo
Elon Musk: No, yourCOre just making up things.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, IrCOm not.
Elon Musk: You just literally make it up.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: No, IrCOm not. You say civil war in Britain is inevitable, and then you basically proselytize for this citizen
vigilante film, which really does paint Europe as a hellhole. It just
starts with ominous music and it says, rCLEurope.rCY
Elon Musk: Well, there was out-of-control rape and murder.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ItrCOs more dangerous in this country than it is in Europe.
Elon Musk: Where there is danger in this country is because we fail to incarcerate repeat violent offenders. ThatrCOs the classic sort of Soros
DA or judges that fail to incarcerate repeat violent offenders. And if somebody gets arrested 50 times, literally, for violent crimes,
eventually theyrCOre going to kill somebody. So you either incarcerate
them or people will die.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think the prevalence of guns has quite a lot to
do with it too. I mean, this is a much more dangerous country. Murder
rates are much higher, in large part because there are so many guns.
Elon Musk: Well, let me give you an interesting number. There are more
people that die in Europe from heat deaths than people that die from gun deaths in America. Why arenrCOt you writing an article about air conditioning?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: WerCOve done several on air conditioning, and we had
on our cover last week a whole long piece about whyrCo
Elon Musk: Pro-air conditioning?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Yeah, werCOre very pro-air conditioning.
Elon Musk: Okay, good. Well, good.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Very pro. You should read us. Absolutely.
Elon Musk: Credit where itrCOs due.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you have a view of The Economist that is
not entirely accurate. So I willrCo you come look at England, start
reading The Economist, and I will stand corrected on my criticism of you
in this area.
Elon Musk: There are many parts of Britain and Europe which are not
safe. You canrCOt just walk around.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But there are far more in this country. Far more.
Elon Musk: No, I donrCOt think so.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: All right, letrCOs go and get my fact-checkers to
check that.
Elon Musk: Yeah, I donrCOt think thatrCOs true.
MuskrCOs Influence on European Politics
Zanny Minton Beddoes: LetrCOs move on from this because I think IrCOve got a sense of why yourCOre doing what yourCOre doing.
Elon Musk: The point is notrCo the question is not, is America perfect?
The question is, does Europe have a serious and growing problem?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: ThatrCOs where we started this.
Elon Musk: Europe has a serious and growing problem. IrCOm not going to
say that the United States has no problems. Of course it does. But we
should all try to address these issues.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: We can agree on that. We should all try to address
the problems. My point was simply that I think you exaggerate the scale
of EuroperCOs problem and thatrCo
Elon Musk: I think people are asleep at the switch and do not realize
the magnitude of the issue.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I also think that your interventions, however well-intentioned they may be, risk making EuroperCOs problem a lot worse.
Elon Musk: How?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Because you are putting your support behind people
who are proto-authoritarians, who are not trying simply to make sure
there is better integration of Muslims or to secure the borders, but who
have very clear fascist tendencies. And you will cause huge divisions
within Europe.
Elon Musk: I think what yourCOre saying is total fiction. And really, IrCOm simply saying that Europe has to have secure borders.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: On that, we agree.
Elon Musk: And should not let in vast numbers of people with views that
are antithetical to the accepted views in Europe and where there will
not be some level of safe cultural integration. This is simply common sense.
Immigration, Political Views, and the Future
Zanny Minton Beddoes: If all you are saying is Europe should have secure borders, I completely agree with you. Then I have misunderstood what
your interventions have been on social media, because that is not what
the view I have rCo not what I would conclude having seen what the people
you are supporting and the things yourCOre doing. But if thatrCOs your goal,
I share your goal that Europe should have secure borders. Yes. I think thatrCOs perfectly agreeable. That gets me to a question.
Elon Musk: And let me explain what the fundamental forcing function here
is for why the borders are not secure, which is when you have a welfare
state that provides substantial benefits to anyone who comes there, you
create a very powerful economic forcing function for anyone who is below
that standard of living to come to Europe. It is an obvious powerful
driving force. And people will come there if their standard of living
is, from what they get in Europe, is above where they are elsewhere in
the world. ItrCOs very basic.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I completely agree with that. Yes, itrCOs a very
basic incentive structure, economic conditions, economic influences
determine a lot of migration. I think asylum is a separate issue, but I
think yourCOre absolutely right. There are pressures for migration.
However, there are other things that you havenrCOt focused on, which is migration brings a lot of benefits, and it also particularly does so in
a continent like Europe, which is a rapidly aging continent.
So we can agree that completely uncontrolled borders are a bad idea. But
I think Europe benefits from having immigration, controlled immigration.
It brings rCo
Elon Musk: IrCOm in favor of immigration. Obviously, IrCOd be hypocritical
if I wasnrCOt since IrCOm an immigrant to the United States. IrCOm in favor of immigration if the person immigrating is going to be a productive member
of society, if theyrCOre going to be honest, and if theyrCOre not going to mistreat people in that country theyrCOre going to.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I can agree on all of those.
Elon Musk: Yes.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But I think that Europe does better on that than
you give it credit for. ThatrCOs, I think, where we disagree. But letrCOs
move on. Tell me, what do you think people get most wrong about you?
Elon Musk: Well, yourCOve just got a whole bunch of things wrong about me. Pretty much everything in the last rCo just rewind the last 20 minutes,
itrCOs all wrong.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: So I got rCo we got rCo I got wrong your rCo
Elon Musk: LetrCOs not be repetitive here.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Okay, so that political side of you, people get
most wrong.
On Being Labeled rCLFar RightrCY
Elon Musk: Yeah, my political views are very centrist. TheyrCOre not far right. And frankly, calling it far right, I think, is an insult to
history, an insult to many peoples, and it is an outrageous falsehood.
ItrCOs completely absurd. I literally have stated my position, which is
that rCo and IrCOve been very clear about this rCo which is that there need to be secure borders. That if thererCOs an influx of immigrants, then they
need to be people who will agree with Western ideals, with Western values.
And if they donrCOt, and if thererCOs a long-term growth of people who do
not, or in some cases are adamantly opposed to Western values, you are
setting yourself up for civil war. This is obvious. A child can see
this. But this is not a right-wing view. IrCOm simply stating reality.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, I think we can both agree that evidence will
be able to decide which of us is more or less right, and we will find
evidence for both of our views in different parts of Europe. The
question is what the overall rCo
Elon Musk: IrCOm very good at predicting the future. IrCOm not perfect, but IrCOm very good at predicting the future. My batting average is very high
for a human. But this does have somewhat of a Cassandra effect where
people donrCOt believe that what IrCOm saying is likely to be true because I can see into the future with a higher probability of success than most
people rCo not perfectly, but with a higher probability.
And including things that people believe to be in some cases
counterintuitive. Again, IrCOm not saying IrCOm always right. I certainly am not. But my batting average is very good. But this does have, like I
said, a Cassandra effect where people donrCOt realize that what IrCOm saying will come to pass, maybe not exactly in the timing that I thought, but
it will come to pass.
And yeah, history will write the verdict. But I think you will see that
very little of what I have said is inaccurate. And a supermajority of
what IrCOve said is very accurate and will come to pass unless thererCOs
some change in direction.
AI vs. Political Predictions
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you have a higher confidence level in your expectations of the future for AI, the first part of our conversation,
or the latter part, the political part?
Elon Musk: AI is digital superintelligence. ItrCOs called the singularity, like a black hole, because you donrCOt know whatrCOs going to happen after that. It sort of sucks in everything. So I think really in terms of the
really big macro effects here, AI and robots will really dominate
everything, on a timescale that is less than 10 years.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Which probably renders this other stuff that werCOve been talking about less important and less relevant.
Elon Musk: The AI robotics revolution will happen sooner than civil war
in Britain. I would say civil war in Britain is probably 20 years away.
And the AI robot singularity is 10 years away.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Well, hopefully these benign, all-powerful AIs
will prevent such outcomes.
Elon Musk: They probably will.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Elon, I donrCOt agree with everything you say, but itrCOs always absolutely fascinating to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.
Elon Musk: YourCOre welcome. IrCOm not boring.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: YourCOre definitely not boring.
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