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Creepy Mike aka MMP aka HarryLime aka Michael Pendragon aka Coco DeSockmonkey aka One Small Voice, etc. wrote:

George J. Dance wrote:

Creepy Mike aka MMP aka HarryLime aka Michael Pendragon aka Coco DeSockmonkey aka One Small Voice, etc. wrote:

I called Pickles a pedophile because he claimed to have had sex with a 14-year-old South American Jewish girl, a 14-year-old Israeli Jewish girl, said that he took NAMBLA members to dinner on at least two different occasions, said that he attended NAMBLA conferences, and claimed that sex between adults and children is a natural part of life and that there should be no legal age.

I called you one when you supported both Pickles and Allen Ginsberg (NAMBLA's poster boy), and when you scolded me for having attacked NAMBLA (which you claimed was the group that has done the most for LGBTQ rights).

Some of that is undeniably true: You "called Pickles a pedophile" and you "called [me] one" as well.

You began by calling Allen Ginsberg a pedophile,

Ginsberg admitted to having sex with minors, and stated that he found 13 and 14-year-old boys most attractive.
Ginsberg was a member, and outspoken supporter of NAMBLA.
In light of this, calling Ginsberg a pedophile is completely justified.

I'll need to see the quotes. IIRC, Ginsbert said that he had never
had sex with anyone under 15, which implies that he had sex with
a 15-year-old. He did not say how old he was at the time; without knowing
that, his statement is not evidence of pedophilia.
Neither is joining or supporting NAMBLA evidence of pedophilia (see below).

which provoked Stephan Pickering
to call you an antisemite. When that led to an ongoing flame war between you and Pickering
(who was already in an ongoing flame war with "NancyGene"), you began calling Pickering a pedophile, too.

Pickles supported Ginsberg (a known pedophile).
Pickles stated that he'd slept with at least two 14-year-old girls, and that he'd impregnated one of them.
Pickles stated that he'd attended NAMBLA conferences, and that he'd taken several NAMBLA members out to dinner.
Pickles stated that there should be no legal age for adults and minors to engage in sex.
Pickles stated that both adult-child sex and incest were natural and claimed that they were both condoned in many societies.
I think it's safe to conclude that Pickles waa a pedophile as well.

Again, I'll need to see quotes. IIRC, Stephan did say he that, at 15 or 16, he'd had a religious marriage with a
14-year-old. I don't recall him saying that he'd impregnated her or even that he'd had sex with her; but even if
he had, that would not be evidence of pedophilia. Since neither Stephan (at the time) nor his parents were
Jewish, I suspect he made the whole thing up, which would explain the geographical inconsistency. I also think he
made up the story of having dinner with people attending the NAMBLA conference: IIRC, he said that happened
at the time of Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue (1975-1976), before NAMBLA existed. I don't remember him
claiming that adult-child sex was "natural" or that there should be no legal age of consent.

And then when I objected to your constantly calling Ginssberg and Pickering pedophiles, which led to an ongoing flame war between you and me, you started calling me a pedophile as well.

False. I started calling you one, not only because you supported Pickles and Ginsberg, but because you championed NAMBLA as the group that had done the most to support LGBTQ rights.

I don't need to see quotes to know what I said. I said I agreed with NAMBLA's position that laws specifically governing oral and *n*l sex should be repealed. I also said I supported the group's First Amendment right to advocate positions I oppose (like lowering or even abolishing the age of consent). Your country's Supreme Court has agreed with me on both points; neither is evidence
of pedophilia.

when Will objected to your constantly calling, Ginsberg, Pickering, and me pedophiles, which led to a flame war between you and him, you began calling Will a pedophile.

Will didn't just support the three above-mentioned pedophiles, but he claimed that sex with, and among, 13-year-olds was common in the "Deep South." He further claimed that he's lost his virginity at the age of 13, which leads one to suspect that some of his sex partners at that time were even younger than him.

Once again, I'll need to see the quotes. IIRC, he said that kids would "get it on" as young as 13. He did not say
whether he meant sex or just foreplay, but sex between children is not evidence of pedophilia. I don't recall him saying he'd lost his virginity at 13, but I doubt he mentioned the age of his partner; even if it were someone younger,
that would not be evidence of pedophilia. OTOH, I do remember you claiming that, at 19, Will had sex with and
impregnated a minor, but I never saw a quote from him about that, either.

And then later you started an ongoing flame war with Zod, and tried to start one with Jordy (though he wouldn't flame back), and you began calling both Zod and Jordy pedophiles.

I don't recall ever having accused Stinky G of being a pedophile. I could be mistaken, as Stinky always gave the impression that he would hump on anything that moved. As to Isaac -- his name was not "Jordy." Jordy was his then teenaged nephew. Isaac claimed he called himself "Jordy" to "honor" his nephew. Sounds seriously pedophilic IMHO and definitely makes my skin crawl.

Neither your impressions of Zod, nor Jordy's internet alias, are evidence of pedophilia either.

So, yeah, there have been several pedophiles in this group (I think we can safely through in Chuck Lysaght as well).

I remember Chuck Lysaght being called a pedophile (by PJ Ross and his ilk) because he wrote a poem about a babysitter being seduced into sex by his female charge. Since the poem didn't mention ages, that's not evidence of pedophilia, either. In fact, so far you've produced zero evidence that anyone in this group past or present is a pedophile.

There seems to be a pattern here: if you get into an ongoing flame war with someone, sooner or later you'll start calling that person a pedophile.

I've gotten into fights with just about everyone here. I haven't called everyone a pedophile.

Names, please. With whom have you been in an ongoing flame war on this group, and not called a pedophile?

That's exactly what your mentor Peter J Ross used to do, as well. That's how he got the nickname "Pedo Ross," and you got the nickname "Pedodragon".

What you mean to say is that's why *you* started calling him "Pedo Ross," and why *you* started calling me "Pedodragon."

??? That is what I said.
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From Newsgroup: alt.arts.poetry.comments

George J. Dance wrote:

Creepy Mike aka MMP aka HarryLime aka Michael Pendragon aka Coco DeSockmonkey aka One Small Voice, etc. wrote:

George J. Dance wrote:

Creepy Mike aka MMP aka HarryLime aka Michael Pendragon aka Coco DeSockmonkey aka One Small Voice, etc. wrote:

I called Pickles a pedophile because he claimed to have had sex with a 14-year-old South American Jewish girl, a 14-year-old Israeli Jewish girl, said that he took NAMBLA members to dinner on at least two different occasions, said that he attended NAMBLA conferences, and claimed that sex between adults and children is a natural part of life and that there should be no legal age.

I called you one when you supported both Pickles and Allen Ginsberg (NAMBLA's poster boy), and when you scolded me for having attacked NAMBLA (which you claimed was the group that has done the most for LGBTQ rights).

Some of that is undeniably true: You "called Pickles a pedophile" and you "called [me] one" as well.

You began by calling Allen Ginsberg a pedophile,

Ginsberg admitted to having sex with minors, and stated that he found 13 and 14-year-old boys most attractive.
Ginsberg was a member, and outspoken supporter of NAMBLA.
In light of this, calling Ginsberg a pedophile is completely justified.

I'll need to see the quotes. IIRC, Ginsbert said that he had never
had sex with anyone under 15, which implies that he had sex with
a 15-year-old. He did not say how old he was at the time; without knowing that, his statement is not evidence of pedophilia.
Neither is joining or supporting NAMBLA evidence of pedophilia (see below).

MMP: The quote was posted in the Ginsberg thread at the time. As the Donkey would say, look it up.

which provoked Stephan Pickering
to call you an antisemite. When that led to an ongoing flame war between you and Pickering
(who was already in an ongoing flame war with "NancyGene"), you began calling Pickering a pedophile, too.

Pickles supported Ginsberg (a known pedophile).
Pickles stated that he'd slept with at least two 14-year-old girls, and that he'd impregnated one of them.
Pickles stated that he'd attended NAMBLA conferences, and that he'd taken several NAMBLA members out to dinner.
Pickles stated that there should be no legal age for adults and minors to engage in sex.
Pickles stated that both adult-child sex and incest were natural and claimed that they were both condoned in many societies.
I think it's safe to conclude that Pickles waa a pedophile as well.

Again, I'll need to see quotes. IIRC, Stephan did say he that, at 15 or 16, he'd had a religious marriage with a
14-year-old. I don't recall him saying that he'd impregnated her or even that he'd had sex with her; but even if
he had, that would not be evidence of pedophilia. Since neither Stephan (at the time) nor his parents were
Jewish, I suspect he made the whole thing up, which would explain the geographical inconsistency. I also think he
made up the story of having dinner with people attending the NAMBLA conference: IIRC, he said that happened
at the time of Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue (1975-1976), before NAMBLA existed. I don't remember him
claiming that adult-child sex was "natural" or that there should be no legal age of consent.

MMP: He was not 15-16 at the time. He claimed it happened in Israel, which he visited during his exile to Canada to avoid the draft). He would have been at least 18.

He would have been, that is, if it were true.

Pick never married any 14-year-old girl, never set foot in Israel (or Canada), and never got his imaginary 14-year-old bride pregnant.

He made the who thing up.

The issue isn't whether he actually impregnated a 14-year-old. It's that he constructed elaborate fantasies about having done so.

As with Ginsberg's quote about 14-year-old boys, it's not a matter of whether he had sex with 14-year-olds, but that he found them sexually desirable.

Pedophilia simply means that one is sexually attracted to children. It doesn't mean that they actually have sex with children.

And then when I objected to your constantly calling Ginssberg and Pickering pedophiles, which led to an ongoing flame war between you and me, you started calling me a pedophile as well.

False. I started calling you one, not only because you supported Pickles and Ginsberg, but because you championed NAMBLA as the group that had done the most to support LGBTQ rights.

I don't need to see quotes to know what I said. I said I agreed with NAMBLA's position that laws specifically governing oral and *n*l sex should be repealed. I also said I supported the group's First Amendment right to advocate positions I oppose (like lowering or even abolishing the age of consent). Your country's Supreme Court has agreed with me on both points; neither is evidence
of pedophilia.

MMP: Good for you.

But that wasn't all that you said.

You also said that you agreed with their alleged First Amendment right not just to lower, but to abolish, the age of consent.

They do *not* have that right. The abolition of a legal age of consent would give predators free rein to sexually assault children. They would just have to argue that it was consensual.

Supporting that doesn't make you a pedophile per se, but it makes you guilty for any sexual assaults against children that would occur after it was passed.

But we've been over all of this before.

when Will objected to your constantly calling, Ginsberg, Pickering, and me pedophiles, which led to a flame war between you and him, you began calling Will a pedophile.

Will didn't just support the three above-mentioned pedophiles, but he claimed that sex with, and among, 13-year-olds was common in the "Deep South." He further claimed that he's lost his virginity at the age of 13, which leads one to suspect that some of his sex partners at that time were even younger than him.

Once again, I'll need to see the quotes. IIRC, he said that kids would "get it on" as young as 13. He did not say
whether he meant sex or just foreplay, but sex between children is not evidence of pedophilia. I don't recall him saying he'd lost his virginity at 13, but I doubt he mentioned the age of his partner; even if it were someone younger,
that would not be evidence of pedophilia. OTOH, I do remember you claiming that, at 19, Will had sex with and
impregnated a minor, but I never saw a quote from him about that, either.

MMP: Here's the full quote:

"Well, most kids from my era were getting it on by that age (13-14) or even earlier, myself included, but with each other, folks of a similar agerCa True, we do things somewhat differently down South."

In context of the discussion, he obviously did not mean foreplay. "Myself included" signifies that he was sexually active at that age.

I don't think Will ever gave "legal age" any thought. He was banging younger girls when he was 13, and I doubt that Kathy was much older than that when the photo with PD Wilson and Cousin Jenny was taken (she looks about 10).

It's the Deep South.

And then later you started an ongoing flame war with Zod, and tried to start one with Jordy (though he wouldn't flame back), and you began calling both Zod and Jordy pedophiles.

I don't recall ever having accused Stinky G of being a pedophile. I could be mistaken, as Stinky always gave the impression that he would hump on anything that moved. As to Isaac -- his name was not "Jordy." Jordy was his then teenaged nephew. Isaac claimed he called himself "Jordy" to "honor" his nephew. Sounds seriously pedophilic IMHO and definitely makes my skin crawl.

Neither your impressions of Zod, nor Jordy's internet alias, are evidence of pedophilia either.

MMP: Like I said, I don't think I ever accused Stinky of pedophilia.

"Jordy's" posts about his nephew, and his claim to be "honoring him" by posting under his name might not be proof, but it's pretty strong circumstantial evidence.

Not that "Jordy" ever molested Jordy. But that "Jordy" finds Jordy attractive.

Again, I remind you that pedophilia is having a sexual attraction to children. A pedophile does not also have to be a sexual predator.

So, yeah, there have been several pedophiles in this group (I think we can safely through in Chuck Lysaght as well).

I remember Chuck Lysaght being called a pedophile (by PJ Ross and his ilk) because he wrote a poem about a babysitter being seduced into sex by his female charge. Since the poem didn't mention ages, that's not evidence of pedophilia, either. In fact, so far you've produced zero evidence that anyone in this group past or present is a pedophile.

MMP: It wasn't a poem. It was a short story.

And it was exactly the type of short story that readers submitted to pornographic magazines (especially Penthouse Forum).

The story wasn't satirical. It wasn't funny. It wasn't presented in a manner to shock the reader or provoke feelings of anger and disgust.

It was simply a pornographic fantasy about a male babysitter being sexually seduced by the child he was babysitting.

There seems to be a pattern here: if you get into an ongoing flame war with someone, sooner or later you'll start calling that person a pedophile.

I've gotten into fights with just about everyone here. I haven't called everyone a pedophile.

Names, please. With whom have you been in an ongoing flame war on this group, and not called a pedophile?

Define "ongoing."

That's exactly what your mentor Peter J Ross used to do, as well. That's how he got the nickname "Pedo Ross," and you got the nickname "Pedodragon".

What you mean to say is that's why *you* started calling him "Pedo Ross," and why *you* started calling me "Pedodragon."

??? That is what I said.

No, it isn't.

You said that PJR and I "got the nickname"(s).

That implies that other people called us by those names.

That never happened.

"Dunce" is a nickname because a large number of the AAPC members past and present have called you "Dunce."

"Donkey" is a nickname because a large number of AAPC members past and present have called Will "Donkey."

You called PJR "Pedo Ross." No one else calls him that now.

You called me Pedodragon. You may have gotten Pickles to call me that (I don't recall), but no one is calling me that now.

You started calling us by "Pedo" names.

We did not get any such *nicknames.*
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