Filename: Phoenix1.Thd
Type : Message Thread
Author : Various/Compiled by Ed Stewart
Edited : Dan Brown
Date : 08/08/92 (received)
Desc. : Message thread about the Phoenix Project from a GEnie Forum



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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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So far, the Phoenix Project has released three reports:

* The Dulce Report (Summary file: DULCEDOC.ZIP)
An extensive study of an area that was claimed to have an
underground U.S./Alien base.

* The Ultimate Secret (Summary file: ULTSEC.TXT)
The Majority Agency for Joint Intelligence (MAJI) The Secret

War Against The Aliens Star Wars (SDI) Exposed

* K-2 -- A Secret California Alien Base (Summary file: K2RPT.TXT)
Their discovery of an underground Alien base at Pilot Peak,

Plumas County, California.

More are expected to be released in mid-to-late August.

The following is a message I discovered on Fido:UFO from Jack
Mathias, Phoenix Project Spokesperson, addressed to All:

As stated in the beginning of each of our reports, [excluding
ULTSEC.TXT] the Phoenix Project is a private, civilian, research
organization without any official affiliation to any branch of the
United States government. It came into existence by chance in 1952 when
a group of "buddies" met and discussed their ideas. Even back in the
early days of the UFO flap it was becoming obvious that the truth was
not being released. Because of this the Phoenix Project started. As did
the other organizations. However, unlike these others, we remained in
the shadows, never releasing any information until it was felt the time
had arrived. That time has come.

The Phoenix Project has never and does not seek publicity. And, for
obvious reasons. We also value what every other person does; security
and safety. It is because of this that there is not much more that we
can say regarding our organization.

One of our investigators became involved in the UFO cover-up during
the Mantell incident of 1948 and later became a special investigator
with Project Blue Book until 1952. Two investigators were
members of the Air Force and three were Navy. Each of these people,
was, at one time or another, either attached to or connected with the
intelligence edifice. However, remaining in the shadows mandates
that the organizations, divisions, etc., not be disclosed. It
is through these activities and/or contacts made during the time of
military involvement that the team has been able to obtain much of our
information. These contacts are loyal and trusted personal friends who
we have known for more than twenty years and since every bit of
information supplied by these people has checked out, we firmly
believe that we have not been suppliedany disinformation.

Because of our past intelligence backgrounds and to protect this on
going relationship with these contacts, revealing our true identity
could jeopardize the personal safety of ourselves, our
families and theirs as well. We have all witnessed examples of
"termination with extreme prejudice," a phrase whose meaning is well
known within the intelligence community.

..............

Jack Mathias believes people have a reason to doubt the Phoenix
Project findings, since their identities will remain secret. He did
think Paranet jumped to conclusions about the Dulce and K-2 reports.
Jack recommends getting the reports for reference and go check them
out.

I cannot think of a good reason why the Phoenix Project would be a
hoax. The reports cost between $10.00 and $12.50, so they are not
making much money from this.

If there are some questions about the Phoenix Project and I don't
have the answer, I could forward them to Jack Mathias to see what he
says.

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M. MASTALER [Mike]:
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Paul.... thanks for starting this topic. I just got information of
their reports, and as you said , they are quite reasonable. Here are
some more reports they say will be ready Aug 30, 1992:

K-2 supplemental report.
The NASA presence at Quincy
The Area 51 report
The Joint US/Alien research base # 920815 $10

(opps,that K-2 report # is 920820 $10 )

The"icecaves" report
The Los Alamos US/Alien base # 920830 $12.50

Advent Publishing Company
PO box 3748
Carson City NV. 89702
Send them a S.A.S.E. to get a complete list of their reports.

Mike

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E. STEWART8:
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I am somewhat puzzled by these folks that call themselves the Phoenix
Project. They say they are tight personal friends of each other and
first organized themselves in 1952 after having shared careers together
in military intelligence.

Well, that means they have known each other for at least forty years
and not twenty. Also, that should put them around seventy to eighty
years old. Somehow, I am having a hard time visualing these folks
scurrying around the Plumas National Forest gathering evidence
incognito. It is tough enough for a young hiker to trek through that
country, much less a setpuagenarian.

But, I guess we will never know since they feel their true identities
must remain secret.

Ed

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Name Not Present in Header
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A joint US/Alien reserach base?! Into what are they doing research?

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GDW. SUPPORT:
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Orbital mind control lasers?

Some of the guys must be a least 60, but there might have been some
`additions' later on. From looking at the files, one can see that they
must of had help with the magnetic survey, since I doubt that military
intelligence personnel are familiar with using such equipment. As far
as age goes, they may have had help from family and friends. I had
received the same type of listing as Mike did, but I found out that
people who received their lists just a week ago had a slightly
different list. The differences included a July 30th date (instead of
Aug 30th) and another report called K-3 -- A Secret Alien Base used for
Controlled Humans. For some reason, they had to delay the reports by
one month. I'm still not sure if they are for real, but I don't
understand why anyone would go through such trouble to perpetrate a
hoax. I heard that their logo is not a registered trademark, as the
files suggest, but the source of the info is exceedingly unreliable.

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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Well, Jack Mathias hasn't been on FidoNet for a couple of days which
suggests he is either on a field trip or he is trying to lay low for
awhile. Maybe his `group' doesn't like him to leak information, or
someone is getting close to figuring out that it's one big hoax.

The heliport near Quincy belongs to the forest service and there is a
NASA facility along the restricted road that leads to the heliport. At
night, the NASA people shine a green beam into the sky. Their
experiments are either related to earthquake monitoring or atmospheric
monitoring. The Phoenix Project is creating a report on NASA's presence
there.

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M. MASTALER [Mike]:
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Keep it comin' Paul !!

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G. COX11 [GARY]:
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Paul

You've tricked me again - first time I've been online "live" in
sometime - surprised to see this topic. Someone just dumped me a copy
of the k-2 report today - I haven't had time to read it yet. My off the
cuff comment is that no one - I mean that - could find a superbly
hidden underground base of unknown size with only a general idea of the
location. What would be found - is a series of anolamous readings and
findings and it would cost a small fortune to determine the true source
of these readings. And this includes a fullscale survey by leading
professionals using the very best equipment that exists.

So it would be hard to prove or disprove anything of this nature
without a lot more cash that the total sum of ufo enthusiasts could
raise. I will get back here after I read k-2...

I should would appreciate it if someone could tell me how to subscribe
to this good stuff off of internet? The copy I have originated out of
Pro-Net Australia Board...

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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Gary,

The Phoenix Project claims to have access to all the expensive
equipment necessary to do the survey. Since Phoenix is a secretive
organization, one cannot be sure if they have or don't have access to
specialized equipment.

Someone on FidoNet:UFO is planning to get some of his prospecting
buddies together (one works just 10 miles from K-2) and they will do a
magnetometer survey to check the Phoenix Project's findings.

Why do you have to get your material from Australia? I got the
material from FidoNet:UFO and Compuserve. Jack Mathias, the Phoenix
Project Spokesman, places the reports on both of these nets. From there
it eventually ends up in Australia. I'm not familiar with Internet, but
if you get on a BBS that has it, they probably have hefty useage
charges. There's a BBS called NetCom and they have
UseNet's:alt.alien.visitor . I haven't called them, but the phone no.
is 408-241-9760 and type "Guest". BUT you'll probably get big long
distance bills and they probably charge for access to their BBS. The
important posts that come from there are often reposted on Fido:UFO, so
you might look for a local BBS that has it.

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]: (Forwarded Message By Mike Corbin)
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ParaNet UFO Echo#1726

Dt: 07-26-92 23:56
By: Paranet(sm) Information Service
To: All
Re: Strong Word Of Caution!

Over the last few days we have been posting information supplied by the
Phoenix Project of Carson City, Nevada. This information has been
strongly disclaimed by ParaNet pending the results of our investigation
to determine the validity of the Phoenix Project and its officers.

While the investigation is still ongoing, we have found some highly
disturbing things relating to credibility of the group. This
information will be reported as soon as the investigation is completed.
This should be in the next few days.

Until this investigation is complete and the findings published,
ParaNet wishes to urge everyone not to send any money to the group.

Michael Corbin
Director

--- FD 1.99c
* Origin: ParaNet -- Leading UFO Research Network (1:104/428.0)

[Well, It's been a week since that was posted and so far they have not
reported on their findings. Shortly after this message was posted,
Michael Corbin sent a message to Jack Mathias, telling him to reveal
the names of the Phoenix Project members. ParaNet may just be blowing
smoke. They are trying to set-up an atmosphere in which it is necessary
for them to reveal their identity. They should have already posted the
disturbing information if they had any. Otherwise all they have is
probably a bunch of rumors.]

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G. COX11 [Gary]:
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Paul et al

I've spent some going over the K2 report here and have some general
observations to make.

An uncanny absence of sounds in a wilderness area is hardly unusual -
it would be normal for the local fauna to shut down due to the
intrusion of humans into their turf.

The feeling of being watched is hardly unusual - it occurrs frequently
with city slicker types who feel paranoid without throbbing masses of
humanity surrounding them. Further in sensitive individuals with a
great deal of experience in this phenomena - it can be a very reliable
guage.

The reaction of the local rangers was typical in all respects.

It's not unusual for any area to be non-radar observed - large areas of
the US are void of radar coverage.

The initial tale of the discovery of the K2 site via triangulation of
transmitted signals is a little flakey - someone just happens to hear
an unusual transmission and keeps monitoring it - with SW there are
many such transmissions.

The closed mouthed loggers - this is common in an industry under attack
by greens, etc. Samething for the road improvements coinciding with new
logging in the area.

A magnetometer is old technology at best - the portable kind aren't as
fine tuned and data productive as the report stated. A computer
generated frequency density map of the survey - which I didn't get a
copy of - would be of interest. My interest would be seeing if the
survey produced any unnatural geometry.

Since a mag was used - the formation must be fairly shallow - if so a
portable core drill could be used to sample the formation. If I was
directing the mag team - I would ask for a comparative survey in an
adjacent area to determine if either was anomalous to the area. A third
survey would be fairly conclusive.

Further a professional look at the area would include a fresh aerial
survey - with aerial stereo pix used to generate an AutoCad map of the
site. The next step would be a real look underground with GPR ground
penetrating radar and using an AutoLISP/AutoCad program to produce a 3-
d map. After looking at the results I could decide whether it would be
worth sinking a drill bit in for a log or coring, etc.

Interestingly enough - Phoenix's initial contact was Dr. Peter Sturrock
at SRI...GPR was developed by Dr.Lambert Dolphin at SRI. If NASA truly
shows an interest in K2 - it would be a serious give away if they were
doing aerial photography and toting around some GPR equipment. Further
it might serve someones purpose to fabricate this data and activity at
K2 and wait and see who shows up. If the feds showed a serious interest
it would tend to promote the alien connection whether the site is
authentic or not...The most curious part of the report was the pond -
was this a beaver dam?

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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Gary,

I always feel like someone is watching me.<g> You said a number of
things, so I will respond to your message next time since I am tired.
In the mean time, I stole this message off a Net to show that a group
of people are making an effort to check out K-2.

* Forwarded from "FidoNet UFO Echo"
* Originally from Steve Jones
* Originally to Warren York
* Originally dated 08-01-92, 7:56

[From ] Steve Jones
[To ] Warren York
[Date ] 01 Aug 92 07:56:02
[Subject ] Re: Phoenix project

Greetings Warren- I am not surprised about Thunder, Inc. Jack Mathias
just left me a post that the address for the company puts inside the
base boundaries for Kirkland. So much for that contact, but purhaps he
still might be contacted just for drill.

As I told Jack, even though I'm not from the state (Missouri I think)
I am very much of a "show me" person, and as such, I am still not 100%
convinced about Dulce. He respects that, which to me is a good sign.

I have receved the K2 report and it is most interesting. There are
several pages of X, Y coordinate data from the magnetometer, pictures
of the site and specific locations of the cavern outlets, a blown up
version of the topo map of the location (Bluenose Mountain Quadrangle-
7.5 minute series), a map showing the radar zone coverage for that area
(including the dead spots). These guys are definitely no into this for
the profit. If I were making this packet available, the cost of $12.50
would just about cover my expenses. The audio tape of the original
transmissions that keyed these guys to that location are indeed
strange. They are heavily modulated and overlayed with what sound like
synthesizer signatures of a random sort. I strongly suspect that once
these are lifted, the data tracks can be located. I can see why the
guys at Stanford and at Ames didn't want anything to do with the tapes.
anyone with sound engineering background should have a crack at this
tape. I am looking into that.

I have a group that is going to be doing a long term observation of
the site and I am looking for qualified volunteers. This site
observation will be from August 5 through the end of the month if
possible. It may be shorter due to lack of manpower. This is strictly a
scientific observation expedition and as such there will be absolutely
no hostile intents. From what the report has stated (they did have a
CE4 incident) the greys are just as curious about us as we are about
them and respect those with non-hostile intents. Anyone who is
interested should be over 18 years of age and be prepared for some
possible heavy duty mental activity (as in grilling by the locals and
the government people up there- and according to what I've heard there
may be lots of them). Those interested should leave e-mail for either
myseld or Dan Brown, my co-moderator (of the Sacramento UFO SIG). I am
looking into the possiblity of some anthro graduate students coming
with us. Everyone will be briefed before leaving.

As I am sure that you are aware, I suspect that this transmission is
monitored and I have no discomfort with the idea that they probably
know that we are coming (the government). That is why I am making this
as public as possible. They hate publicity. Even before this post, over
50 friends of mine are fully aware of were I'm going and why.
Warren, I have communicated with you several times over the past two
years and respect you positions. Keep me posted.

TTYL....Steve Jones (co-moderator of the Sacramento UFO Group)

--- FMail 0.90
* Origin: Gates Of Delirium (916)446-7286: (1:203/163)

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G. COX11 [GARY]:
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Thanx Paul - I know what you mean!(g)

What have you heard about the Dulce location? Both the Phoenix reports
were real mind blowers. With a large group of observers at the K2 -
there should be some very interesting stuff coming out fairly
soon...keep up with great info...

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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Gary,

I haven't heard anything further about ParaNet's complaint about the
Dulce report. The report is about 18 pages long, compared to K-2's 60
pages, so it doesn't have much detail in it. The airborn magnetometer
map looks like a shaded contour map. They don't give any examples of
data like they do in the K-2 report.

Now, going back to your message on K-2:

I don't know why the report included useless information such as the
lack of rodents, the feeling of being watched, and "boiling" clouds.
The content of the report suggested they were paranoid.

> unusual transmission and keeps monitoring it - with SW there are many
> such transmissions.

Yes, but these particular transmissions are strange. The
transmissions sound like bizarre music. There is a voice on them
repeating words that I just can't make out. It sounds like "see the
bears"?<g> The transmissions carry no data. It sounds like a bizarre
relaxation or subliminal suggestion tape with strange electronic
sounds, including whale sounds. It has nothing to do with aliens.

> A magnetometer is old technology at best - the portable kind aren't as
> fine tuned and data productive as the report stated.

It depends what type of magnetometer they were using. There is no
mention of what type they used in the report. Modern magnetometers
shouldn't have any problem detecting an alien base, since geologists
use it to discover mineral deposits. I'm not familiar with the
magnetometer's operation, but modern ones use some sort of nuclear
resonance.

>My interest would be seeing if the survey produced any unnatural
>geometry.

They made the conclusion that these tunnels and compartments were
unnatural because they were aligned with magnetic north. They were
apparently rectangular. These compartments were not connected in the
field data, so they think there were adjoining tunnels that are
magnetically disguised by the compartments near the surface.

There were two large entrances that had dead-ends. One was 40 feet
wide at the entrance and narrowed down to 15 feet; the total length was
270 feet into the mountain. The section of the mountain (hill) that was
surveyed included magnetometer readings above the accessable tunnels. I
don't know why these entrances had dead-ends. Greys are suppose to have
the power to pass through walls, so they could pass through the dead-
end, but why is there an entrance tunnel at the surface? Inside the
mountain, the magnetometer readings showed four chambers. One was 20
feet by 75 feet with 10 feet wide tunnels extending 50+ feet to the
north and to the south. This chamber was made of fused rock because the
magnetometer readings above it had dropped. There were two tunnels that
were 160+ and 190 feet long and 10 to 20 feet wide. The readings
increased above them, so they apparently were metallic. On one side of
the surveyed quadrant was a large chamber that extended beyond the 400
foot quadrant and it was metallic. The actual size of the chamber was
not determined. The chambers could be natural deposits, but the
magnetic north-south orientation seems odd.

>Since a mag was used - the formation must be fairly shallow

They made no mention of depth, but I assume they could use a portable
core drill. But, the Phoenix Project seems to be worried about
appearing hostile toward the aliens, so trying to drill into their home
would be a hostile act.

>Further a professional look at the area would include a fresh aerial
>survey with aerial stereo pix used to generate an AutoCad map of the
>site. The next step would be a real look underground with GPR ground
>penetrating radar and using an AutoLISP/AutoCad program to produce a 3-
>d map. After looking at the results I could decide whether it would be
>worth sinking a drill bit in for log or coring, etc.

Gee...you sound like you're familiar with underground surveys. If you
supply the equipment and the money, I'll lend a helping hand <G>.
Well..I doubt the Phoenix Project would have enough money to do a
complete survey. And I doubt anyone else would do that.

>Further it might serve someones purpose to fabricate this data and
>activity at K2 and wait and see who shows up. If the feds showed a
>serious interest it would tend to promote the alien connection whether
>the site is authentic or not...The most curious part of the report was
>the pond - was this a beaver dam?

I don't know why someone would hoax it. Just having the military or
USGS there doesn't really strengthen "the alien connection". If the
USGS wastes their time and finds out it's a mineral deposit or a hoax,
then the Phoenix Project is dead.

They apparently saw a Grey at the site and it `talked' to one of them.

The pond is dyked, so humans created the `dam'.
Paul

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G. COX11 [GARY]:
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Paul

Have they (Phoenix) done a report on the Dulce site? At least with all
the activity at K2 something should come out of it. Maybe we can open a
snack bar there to finance our stay?(g)

On Cooper - the Psi BB had a message regarding a fight he got into with
another UFO researcher - forgot the guys name - Van something - I've
seen him on tv a few times. At least Cooper's story would explain
things like the Landrum incident. With goverment testing of alien
technology.

I read something interesting recently - there are always tales about
strange objects and artificial looking formations on the moon. There is
an artificial appearing object near the crater archimedes and lower
appenine highlands - in the mountains South of the great crater there
appears to be a huge structure located in some foothills. Lunar Orbiter
IV produced a poor photo of the object - and the area was
rephotographed by Apollo 15. People have ordered 5"x48" Apollo 15
mapping photos and have had them examined by high powered stereo
microscopes and determined that the newer NASA photos have been
airbrushed - the object erased. When comparing the various sets of NASA
photos with some done at the Lick Observatory - it's clear NASA
reworked things. Some people think this is done mainly to fool
planetary scientist's here - who accept anything NASA gives them...

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M. MASTALER [Mike]:
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Gary; Can you be VERY speccific on those lunar photos ? Do you have the
nasa numbers of them ? I can go over to the *space topic, and someone
there has access to these photos. then wo can maybe get some scientific
feedback.

Thanks Mike

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Gary,

A snack bar is a good idea. I'm sure those aliens are pretty hungry.
If you want the Dulce Report, there's DULCEDOC.ZIP in the library or,
if you don't have an unZipper, there's DULCEDOC.TXT in the Space
library. The spaceship in the Landrum case is strange, not like your
average E.T. ship. Maybe it was an experimental reactor that caught
fire. Somehow, I think the lawyer might have been able to do a better
job at presenting the case. The judge expected high ranking military
personnel to leak classified information, so the case died when they
didn't. The reason why I don't like Cooper is because he gives out
information that is obviously incorrect. Since he doesn't realize some
things he says are blatantly wrong, it makes me think he is either a
lousy researcher or he is making it up. Disinformation is a no-no for
UFOlogists, it has poisoned his reputation within the UFO community.
Reguarding the Moon pictures; I haven't heard about that, I'll ask
around and see if anyone else has heard about it.

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GRAFFITI [Ric Helton]:
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[1 =very= long message deleted, and the author asked to break it up or
upload to the library....]

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P. MIDDLER [Paul]:
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The Paranet message basically linked the Phoenix Project with America
West Publishers and the Phoenix Liberator. They are known for their
communications with a Commander Hattoon<sp>, who is in a spaceship that
circles the Earth. Jack Mathias has often put down that organization,
so it's funny that he's linked with them. The full story is still
unknown to ParaNet and they are continuing their investigation. I will
upload the ParaNet message and a file on Commander Hattoon into the
library.

---

Jim Singleton
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
http://ricksbbs.synchro.net:8080
---
þ Synchronet þ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23