===========================================================================


The following file contains selected excerpts from phone
conversations I had with Robert Swan during the month of December.
Bill Cooper both supplied me with his name, whereabouts, and "code"
by which Robert Swan was to know that it was okay to divulge information
to me regarding his knowledge of what Bill Cooper had discussed with him.

As Bill Cooper did not have Swan's phone number, I had to find
that out for myself. Additionally, Bill has asked that I not print Swan's address, as he does not want this individual "harassed". For those who
are serious about getting to the truth of the matter, they will know how
to find this individual.

There will be no commentary from myself, as the file should
speak for itself. Anything in [ ] brackets will represent clarification
of speech where necessary. Although several calls were made to Robert
Swan, I have only included the most revelant material from 2 of them here.

The purpose of my communicating with Robert Swan was to verify
whether or not Bill Cooper had indeed shown him certain UFO-related
documents (ie. Project Aquarius papers) back in 1972.

-Tom Mickus 1/22/89


Note: "........" indicates conversation not reproduced here.



Selected Excerpts from Phone Conversation (A) (WITHOUT KNOWING "CODE") ----------------------------------------------------------------------

........

<MICKUS> "Of course you don't know me. I've been speaking with
Bill Cooper".

<SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "And you knew him from a while back?"

<SWAN> "Yes."
........

<MICKUS> "There's one thing I wanted to ask you. Bill has decided to
go public with all he knows, and has been getting from his
sources; about what he knows about the U.S. gov't cover-up..."

<SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "...with UFOs, that type of thing..."

<SWAN> "Un-huh."

<MICKUS> "...and as one of the coroborating sources, he had mentioned
your name to myself, and one other person as far as I know,
about both of you seeing an Aquarius telex document back in
'72. And I just wanted to find out, get confirmation from
youf that that was true, that the content in there was what
Bill has reproduced."

<SWAN> "You know I can't um...I can't verify that. I don't recall
that."

<MICKUS> "So you don't remember ever seeing anything like that?"

<SWAN> "No. I may have. But off the top [of my head], you know thats
been years and years. And I don't, I don't at the present time
remember...you know if I remember the circumstances or
something...if you could let me know what the circumstances
were, then I could piece it back together. To all of a
sudden to try and remember something like that... I mean,
there's all kinds of discussions that we've had in the past,
lengthy...and so on."

<MICKUS> "You mean related to this?"

<SWAN> "Ahh, well there was a lot of stuff just as far as the carriers
[aircraft] and stuff like that. But..."

<MICKUS> "Just dealing with the military though?"

<SWAN> "Yeah. ...but not anything that... He was always very above-board
with stuff. As far as classified stuff, when I was on the...I
think he was on the Enterprise...I don't remember, but I was on
board one time, and we were going through...he was showing me
around and stuff, and there was areas that he had access to that
naturally I wouldn't. I know his knowledge is definitely there."

<MICKUS> "So you can attest to that he has, or did have this, high
security rating that would give him access to..."

<SWAN> "Oh yeah. Sh*t yeah.

<MICKUS> "...cause he's come out and said that he's got 4 different
military intelligence sources."

<SWAN> "Right. Well he was in the Air Force, the Navy... anyway,
right now I can't really recall the...if I remember the
circumstances maybe I could piece it back together...I'll
think about it...but as far as the UFO stuff, that...that
was pretty much hearsay from what was going on on the
carriers and stuff."

<MICKUS> "You mean from Bill, or from other people?"

<SWAN> "From Bill, yeah."

<MICKUS> "Okay, this is the one thing he mentioned. The year was 1972
and it was an Aquarius-telex. Now I imagine if you did see
this thing, it would probably stick in your mind..."

<SWAN> "Yeah..."

<MICKUS> "you know, about exchange of technology between Alien groups,
Project Plato, then there was a Project Sigma about establishing
communications, Project Redlight to test fly Alien aircraft,
then there was the Project Snowbird to cover that up, and that
was about all that was in the Aquarius document."

<SWAN> "Yeah."

<MICKUS> "But that doesn't ring a bell?"

<SWAN> "No it doesn't."
........

<MICKUS> "But you say it could be true though?"

<SWAN> "Oh yeah, it could be true, sure. He was really into that.
You know, I mean as far as... yeah he was really interested
in that kind of sh*t. But I don't recall seeing that. And
like you said, if I had, it probably would stick in my mind.
However, if I remember the circumstances, like I said, maybe
I could piece it back together, but right now..."

<MICKUS> "About Bill's involvement, would you say that he's pretty
level-headed about it? Was he talking about it all the time?"

<SWAN> "No, I'd say he was pretty level headed about it."
........

<SWAN> "Well he certainly had access to a lot of information. I'm
aware of that."
........

<SWAN> "Basically what I had gathered from him is on the space shots
and so on, from tracking and so on...the sightings that have
been seen from astronauts in space, you know, communications
on board...just the sightings and so on. And I think thats
what got his interest going on the thing. Navigation, he was
a navigator I believe, and so he had all that front-line
communication stuff going."

<MICKUS> "I'm just curious, but is he bound by any,...I know there
are various regulations and this type of thing. But
conceivably could he be in any hot water over..."

<SWAN> "I would say so. Right off the top [of my head]". He's no
longer in the military is he?

<MICKUS> "No..."
........


=====================================================================

Selected Excerpts from Phone Conversation (B) (WITH "CODE" THIS TIME) ---------------------------------------------------------------------

........

<MICKUS> "The reason why Bill doesn't want you to get in touch with
him in the immediate interim, is because he has to get
independent verification that he did see these particular
documents so many years ago. Now you personally haven't
spoken with him, or corresponded for how long would you
say?"

<SWAN> "Twelve, thirteen years."
........

<MICKUS> "...the night before he was to get married, he apparently
told you "on the eve of his wedding", that was to be the
code or whatever,...that you originally weren't supposed
to tell anyone about this because it was just confidential
between both of you. But he was telling me about when he
had his house up on Aeia Heights Dr....[Bill Said] " I
lived only a few houses below him, it was at night, we
had a few drinks, I showed him the documents and gave him
a copy of it. And we talked for about an hour about it.
I asked him to never to discuss it with anyone as it was
Top Secret. And then we never discussed it again after
that."

<SWAN> "Right."

<MICKUS> "So do you remember that?"

<SWAN> "I remember something to that effect, yup."

<MICKUS> "And he said in the document, the coversheet said Majesty,
it had Sigma, Redlight, Snowbird, Luna, Delta, NRO, Pluto,
Plato, Pounce and a description of the aliens and other
info in it..."
.......

<SWAN> "There's been lots of discussion and stuff, but as far as
anything other than like you just said...really minor
momentarily talking about...that's all well and good. But
as far as going into depth and knowing exactly what all that
stuff is, I don't."

<MICKUS> "He said he did give you a copy of something."

<SWAN> "You know, I don't recall that. He possibly could have. The
instance [of the meeting] I remember that occuring. But I
don't remember him giving me a copy of anything because of
his involvement with...he was with CINCPACFLT then, and I
don't really... He might have shown me that, but I don't...
he never gave me a copy of it that I recall. If he had of,
I would have definitely had it stashed some place, and
probably would have lost it by now anyway."

<MICKUS> "But theoretically it could be buried away somewhere in
your old records?"

<SWAN> "I've been through stuff over the last ten - fifteen years,
and I a haven't come across it. But there's been stuff that
Bill's shown me on UFO stuff so..."

........

<MICKUS> "...is there anything that you can specifically remember
that can be shown... Basically what I'm trying to determine
is; Yes, you did see this particular document. Now I want
to know that besides the fact that; Yes, you and Bill were
talking about the subject of...and..., this type of thing."

<SWAN> "We were talking about the subject of UFOs quite a bit, and
his interest in them and all that. As far as all of the stuff
that was Top Secret, whatever, there was stuff that he had
told me and that he couldn't say anything about, and so...
And as far as getting a copy of some document, I don't
really recall that, I may have seen it...but... And that
period right before his wedding and all that, I remember
that quite well."

<MICKUS> "So if I take you back to that specific evening on Aeia
Heights, and you are both talking over drinks, and Bill
comes out and shows you this one set of documents. Do
you not specifically recall that? Because that is
important."

<SWAN> "I specifically recall him showing me something, but as
far as him giving me a copy, I don't recall."

<MICKUS> "Well, forget about the copy part..."

<SWAN> "As far as the exact Project and all of that, I can't
really...if there was something in court or something
and they would say, 'positively do you remember reading
blah blah blah', and honestly I cannot."

<MICKUS> "So how would you characterize those documents? If you
were to put it into your own sentence as to what he
showed you, what would you say?"

<SWAN> "Right off the top,\ 'He showed me some papers with a
bunch of stuff on it.' But as far as what it was, as
far as what the Projects and stuff that you were
talking about...that doesn't ring a bell to me."

<MICKUS> "Like I said before, I don't want to involve you..."

<SWAN> "Hey I'll tell you something, if I remembered, and if
I had a copy of it, I wouldn't hesitate to get involved.
I could careless about...where a person hangs out. I'm
not squeamish in any ways, about what you're talking
about, all kinds of supernatural stuff. If I had some
knowledge of it, and I saw it...hell yeah man, I would
get right into it."

<MICKUS> "Actually, I was thinking more of the...you know
theoretically what some intelligence service could do
to a person who... I thought that maybe you might not
want to talk for that reason."

<SWAN> "No no. After I talked with you the other time, I kinda
gone back and re-lived conversations and stuff. As far
as the contents of the document you are talking about...
I know that we discussed a bunch of stuff as far as
different things, but I don't know anything about the
documents."

<MICKUS> "Do you remember discussing events connected with...
Now, some of those Project names do they ring a bell
at all? Or discussion of UFOs? Do you remember that
as being central to what you were discussing, as
opposed to just military..."

<SWAN> "Well, if I got into the particulars of the different
operations or something, I would probably remember what
was said. As far as the code names and all of that kind
of stuff, they really don't mean anything to me. As far
as some of the things that were going on, I recall
discussions on that. Its trying to piece together stuff
that far back, and at that point in time it was fascinating
to what was going on, but I didn't have any extreme
interest in it."

<MICKUS> "Would you say, thinking back to that time...that Yes, the
impression left is that this stuff that you saw dealt with
UFOs. Was that..."

<SWAN> "Oh yeah."

<MICKUS> "That's clear then, right?"

<SWAN> "Oh yeah."

<MICKUS> "You're just talking specifics now. And although you may
not remember what was on the pages, whatever, can you
think back in your mind, and actually see Bill passing
something over for you to look at...or referring to
something in front of him, specific documents."

<SWAN> "Yeah, I remember that. I remember that, but its like I said,
as far as the contents and so on, that was just discussed.
As far as a copy, I don't recall getting one."
.......

========================================================================

[ - End of File - ]


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