From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

I am studying the Bible with a lady of about my own age (and truth be
told, getting on rather well with her) and she is also studying with a
very nice lady from the church. However a few weeks ago my friend made a comment which seemed to imply that she was desperate to learn as much as
she could about the Bible so that she could be saved.

That rang some alarm bells and I queried her. It appeared that she had
somehow gained the impression that you had to reach a certain standard
of Bible knowledge in order to be saved. I immediately sat her down and
showed her from the Bible that we are not saved by knowledge or good
deeds, but solely by the grace of God. I used the thief on the cross as
the example of someone who couldn't do anything or learn anything, but
was given the assurance of immediate salvation by no less a Person than
the Son of God Himself!

Which, as I said it, gave me a flash of inspiration. What Jesus said is
well known. "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in
paradise."

I have long known that the punctuation there is wrong, because "today" -
Good Friday - Jesus Himself did not ascend to paradise but remained in
the tomb until Sunday morning. What Jesus said, without doubt, was this: "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise."

I have heretofore understood Jesus to be saying, "Today, in My shame and suffering, I nevertheless promise that you will etc." But I suddenly
realised that Jesus was saying something much more profound.

"Today, this very instant, I promise that you will etc."

The moment we believe in Jesus we pass from death into life. There is no period of probation to see if we are worthy or if we will persevere.
Instantly we are saved. And that was what Jesus promised the thief on
the cross.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 01/01/2026 17:34, Kendall K. Down wrote:

I am studying the Bible with a lady of about my own age (and truth be
told, getting on rather well with her) and she is also studying with a
very nice lady from the church. However a few weeks ago my friend made a comment which seemed to imply that she was desperate to learn as much as
she could about the Bible so that she could be saved.

That rang some alarm bells and I queried her. It appeared that she had somehow gained the impression that you had to reach a certain standard
of Bible knowledge in order to be saved. I immediately sat her down and showed her from the Bible that we are not saved by knowledge or good
deeds, but solely by the grace of God. I used the thief on the cross as
the example of someone who couldn't do anything or learn anything, but
was given the assurance of immediate salvation by no less a Person than
the Son of God Himself!

Did your friend accept that salvation is a gift offered through Grace?

Which, as I said it, gave me a flash of inspiration. What Jesus said is
well known. "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise."

I have long known that the punctuation there is wrong, because "today" - Good Friday - Jesus Himself did not ascend to paradise but remained in
the tomb until Sunday morning. What Jesus said, without doubt, was this: "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with Me in paradise."

Punctuation wasn't used by the scribes, so it's conjecture either way.
but if Jesus had said, I tell you the truth today, ... it will be the
first time He is recorded as adding the today bit.

According to Peter He visited the spirits in prison. It's not
inconceivable that he whisked the thief off to paradise first. That's assuming this story is accurate, which I don't think it is.

I have heretofore understood Jesus to be saying, "Today, in My shame and
suffering, I nevertheless promise that you will etc." But I suddenly realised that Jesus was saying something much more profound.

"Today, this very instant, I promise that you will etc."

However, I think you make a valid point here, and I don't discount your reasoning, and as you say below-

The moment we believe in Jesus we pass from death into life. There is no period of probation to see if we are worthy or if we will persevere. Instantly we are saved. And that was what Jesus promised the thief on
the cross.

We discussed not so long ago the inerrancy of the bible, and this
suggests that you can't lose your salvation. Some verses support that,
but there are other verses that don't. Which would you say is correct?



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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 03/01/2026 13:58, John wrote:

Did your friend accept that salvation is a gift offered through Grace?

It was a huge relief for her!

Punctuation wasn't used by the scribes, so it's conjecture either way.
but if Jesus had said, I tell you the truth today, ... it will be the
first time He is recorded as adding the today bit.

Never mind punctuation, the early manuscripts didn't even have spaces
between words!

I can't think of any conversation by Jesus where "today" might have been appropriate. The main reason I reject the conventional punctuation is
that Jesus did not return to paradise when He died. On Sunday He tells
the women not to touch Him "for I am not yet ascended to My Father".

According to Peter He visited the spirits in prison. It's not
inconceivable that he whisked the thief off to paradise first.-a That's assuming this story is accurate, which I don't think it is.

1. Peter's comment is highly problematic and I would hesitate to base
any argument on it.
2. In any case, your claim is contradicted by Jesus' own words, referred
to above.

However, I think you make a valid point here, and I don't discount your reasoning, and as you say below-

Thank you.

We discussed not so long ago the inerrancy of the bible, and this
suggests that you can't lose your salvation. Some verses support that,
but there are other verses that don't.-a Which would you say is correct?

I don't see anything in Jesus' words to suggest "once saved always
saved". That is a doctrine which I do not find in Scripture.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 05/01/2026 07:06, Kendall K. Down wrote:

On 03/01/2026 13:58, John wrote:

Did your friend accept that salvation is a gift offered through Grace?

It was a huge relief for her!

That's good.

I can't think of any conversation by Jesus where "today" might have been appropriate. The main reason I reject the conventional punctuation is
that Jesus did not return to paradise when He died. On Sunday He tells
the women not to touch Him "for I am not yet ascended to My Father".

Is paradise the same as heaven? I know it's a parable but Jesus talks of
the good going to Abrahams bosom and the wicked going to a place of
torment. Is this the paradise Jesus speaks of?

According to Peter He visited the spirits in prison. It's not
inconceivable that he whisked the thief off to paradise first.-a That's
assuming this story is accurate, which I don't think it is.

1. Peter's comment is highly problematic and I would hesitate to base
any argument on it.

In what way is it problematic? (genuine question)

We discussed not so long ago the inerrancy of the bible, and this
suggests that you can't lose your salvation. Some verses support that,
but there are other verses that don't.-a Which would you say is correct?

I don't see anything in Jesus' words to suggest "once saved always
saved". That is a doctrine which I do not find in Scripture.

When you brought up John 10 at the beginning of this thread I read
beyond and noticed something interesting in verses 27-28 and of course
Romans 8:35-39 amongst others. On the other side of the coin there are
other verses that suggest the opposite. I put that down to the writers
bias rather than the inerrancy of the bible as two contradictory
viewpoints can't both be true.





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From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

On 05/01/2026 11:15, John wrote:

Is paradise the same as heaven? I know it's a parable but Jesus talks of
the good going to Abrahams bosom and the wicked going to a place of torment.-a Is this the paradise Jesus speaks of?

"Paradise" is originally a Persian word meaning an enclosed garden. I
suppose one could argue that it is distinct from God's dwelling place,
though I think in Christian terminology the two are synonymous. However
note that Jesus said "You will be with me". Conventional Christian
thinking has Jesus in Hades (the Underworld, the grave) and mediaeval Christianity put emphasis on "the Harrowing of Hell". Neither could
claim to be "paradise".

In what way is it problematic?-a (genuine question)

It appears to teach a second chance of salvation after this life,
whereas Christian theology teaches that this life is the determining
factor in your eternal destiny.

When you brought up John 10 at the beginning of this thread I read
beyond and noticed something interesting in verses 27-28 and of course Romans 8:35-39 amongst others.-a On the other side of the coin there are other verses that suggest the opposite. I put that down to the writers
bias rather than the inerrancy of the bible as two contradictory
viewpoints can't both be true.

No, there is no contradiction at all. No one - human or satanic - can
force us away from God. But we can choose to turn our backs on Him. We
can choose to let go of His hand and go our own ways, for God will not
force us into heaven.

God bless,
Kendall K. Down
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