• Holy doors

    From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Wed Dec 24 07:17:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    According to the Daily Mail, over the next couple of days the pope is
    going to be busy bricking up four doors - literally - and a fifth (metaphorically). These are the Jubilee doors. I already knew about the
    one in the front of St Peters, but apparently there are others at St
    John Lateran and elsewhere.

    A jubilee should be every 50 years, but the popes found the doors such a money-spinner that back in 1457 they decided to open the doors every 25
    years. Thousands of the faithful flock to Rome to walk through these
    doors, with consequent time off purgatory.

    Other places have noted the financial benefits of such shennanigans.
    There is a shrine to the Madonna in Croatia which has installed its own Jubilee Door (closed when I visited, so I'm stuck with my original
    period in purgatory).

    Fortunately I prefer the holy door mentioned in John 10:9, which not
    only does not require me to visit Rome or Croatia or anywhere else, but
    which is far more effective than the pope's bricks and mortar.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Fri Dec 26 15:33:07 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 24/12/2025 07:17, Kendall K. Down wrote:

    Fortunately I prefer the holy door mentioned in John 10:9, which not
    only does not require me to visit Rome or Croatia or anywhere else, but which is far more effective than the pope's bricks and mortar.

    What your take on verse 8? Who were the ones who came before Jesus, as
    I thought He was supposed to be the only one to lay claim to be the Messiah?



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  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.religion.christian on Fri Dec 26 16:20:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 26/12/2025 15:33, John wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 07:17, Kendall K. Down wrote:

    Fortunately I prefer the holy door mentioned in John 10:9, which not
    only does not require me to visit Rome or Croatia or anywhere else,
    but which is far more effective than the pope's bricks and mortar.

    What your take on verse 8?-a Who were the ones who came before Jesus, as
    I thought He was supposed to be the only one to lay claim to be the
    Messiah?



    I think there were quite a few claims of Messiah-hood at around that time.

    'Josephus mentions a dozen or more rCLmessiahrCY figures beginning with Hezekiah/Ezekias c. 45 BCE whom the young Herod defeated whom he
    variously labels as rCLbrigandsrCY (++++-a-a+<-e) or rCLimpostersrCY'

    https://jamestabor.com/messiahs-in-the-time-of-jesus/



    Given this history, you can perhaps have some sympathy with verses 19-20:

    19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them
    said, rCLHe is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?rCY







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  • From Graham Nye@nospam@thenyes.org.uk to uk.religion.christian on Fri Dec 26 23:19:18 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 2025-12-24 07:17, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    According to the Daily Mail, over the next couple of days the pope is
    going to be busy bricking up four doors - literally - and a fifth (metaphorically). These are the Jubilee doors. I already knew about the
    one in the front of St Peters, but apparently there are others at St
    John Lateran and elsewhere.

    There are Jubilee doors at the four major basilicas in Rome, the two
    already mentioned as well as Santa Maria Maggiore (St Mary Major) and
    St Paul's outside the walls.

    This past year there has been a fifth door at the Rebibbia prison in
    Rome, already closed.

    More detail: https://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=67907

    (I've visited, as a tourist, St Peter's and Santa Maria Maggiore, where
    Pope Francis is now buried.)
    --
    Graham Nye
    news(a)thenyes.org.uk



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 05:55:33 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 26/12/2025 15:33, John wrote:

    What your take on verse 8?-a Who were the ones who came before Jesus, as
    I thought He was supposed to be the only one to lay claim to be the
    Messiah?
    What on earth gives you that idea? There have been false prophets and
    false messiahs all down through history. However Jesus' words are not particularly about false messiahs, they refer to any person who claims
    to be the special path to God, whether or not they claim to be a (or
    the) messiah.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 05:59:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 26/12/2025 23:19, Graham Nye wrote:

    This past year there has been a fifth door at the Rebibbia prison in
    Rome, already closed.

    It does seem rather odd to put a Jubilee Door in a prison, where access
    was, I presume, limited to prisoners! Why that particular prison? Why
    this particular year?

    All very odd.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 05:57:54 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 26/12/2025 16:20, GB wrote:

    'Josephus mentions a dozen or more rCLmessiahrCY figures beginning with Hezekiah/Ezekias c. 45 BCE whom the young Herod defeated whom he
    variously labels as rCLbrigandsrCY (++++-a-a+<-e) or rCLimpostersrCY'

    Indeed. One of the Roman authors (I'd have to look it up) states that
    there was a widespread expectation "in the east" that the messiah was
    due to appear. The expression seems to indicate that it wasn't only the
    Jews who had messianic expectations.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 14:36:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 28/12/2025 05:55, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 26/12/2025 15:33, John wrote:

    What your take on verse 8?-a Who were the ones who came before Jesus,
    as I thought He was supposed to be the only one to lay claim to be the
    Messiah?

    What on earth gives you that idea? There have been false prophets and
    false messiahs all down through history. However Jesus' words are not particularly about false messiahs, they refer to any person who claims
    to be the special path to God, whether or not they claim to be a (or
    the) messiah.

    All who came before me would indicate those who came as the Messiah, not
    just the ones who claim to be a path to be a special path to God. If
    that were the case you'd have to discount every prophet previous to Jesus.

    Can you name any false Messiah's, either pre or post Jesus (the man)?
    The only one I can think of is Simon bar Kokhba, who came about a
    century after Jesus.



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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 14:40:21 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 26/12/2025 16:20, GB wrote:
    On 26/12/2025 15:33, John wrote:
    On 24/12/2025 07:17, Kendall K. Down wrote:

    Fortunately I prefer the holy door mentioned in John 10:9, which not
    only does not require me to visit Rome or Croatia or anywhere else,
    but which is far more effective than the pope's bricks and mortar.

    What your take on verse 8?-a Who were the ones who came before Jesus,
    as I thought He was supposed to be the only one to lay claim to be the
    Messiah?



    I think there were quite a few claims of Messiah-hood at around that time.

    'Josephus mentions a dozen or more rCLmessiahrCY figures beginning with Hezekiah/Ezekias c. 45 BCE whom the young Herod defeated whom he
    variously labels as rCLbrigandsrCY (++++-a-a+<-e) or rCLimpostersrCY'

    https://jamestabor.com/messiahs-in-the-time-of-jesus/



    Given this history, you can perhaps have some sympathy with verses 19-20:

    19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them
    said, rCLHe is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?rCY

    Thanks GB, my OT knowledge is very sparse, so I wasn't aware of it. It
    reminds me of the 1800's a bit, when there was a huge expectation of the return of Jesus, which spawned 3 major sects still in existence today.



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  • From Graham Nye@nospam@thenyes.org.uk to uk.religion.christian on Sun Dec 28 23:28:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 2025-12-28 05:59, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 26/12/2025 23:19, Graham Nye wrote:

    This past year there has been a fifth door at the Rebibbia prison in
    Rome, already closed.

    It does seem rather odd to put a Jubilee Door in a prison, where access
    was, I presume, limited to prisoners!

    And apparently prison visitors: https://www.facebook.com/thecatholictraveler/posts/this-is-rebibbia-prison-it-has-the-highest-prisoner-capacity-in-all-of-italy-and/1201045031400006/

    Why that particular prison? Why this particular year?

    It's Italy's largest. It was Pope Francis' wish, expressed in the bull
    linked from the link I posted.
    --
    Graham Nye
    news(a)thenyes.org.uk



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Dec 29 06:20:14 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 28/12/2025 14:40, John wrote:

    Thanks GB, my OT knowledge is very sparse, so I wasn't aware of it. It reminds me of the 1800's a bit, when there was a huge expectation of the return of Jesus, which spawned 3 major sects still in existence today.

    In both cases, I believe, the expectations were based upon Bible
    prophecy. In the 1st century AD it would have been the prophecy of
    Daniel 9, which was understood to mean that there would be 490 years
    from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the Messiah. In the 19th century
    it was the prophecy of Daniel 8, which was understood to mean that from
    the same starting point - the rebuilding of Jerusalem - there would be
    2,300 years until "the sanctuary shall be cleansed".

    The "sanctuary" which required cleansing was believed to be the earth,
    and the "cleansing" would be the return of Christ. The trouble is that
    this ignores the two facts that in the 19th century (and still today)
    there is no earthly sanctuary - and hasn't been since AD 70, and
    secondly that Christian belief focusses on the sanctuary in heaven as described in Hebrews 8.

    Two of the sects referred to above are the SDA and the JWs. I'm not sure
    which is the third. Can you elucidate, John?

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Dec 29 06:25:04 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 28/12/2025 14:36, John wrote:

    All who came before me would indicate those who came as the Messiah, not just the ones who claim to be a path to be a special path to God.-a If
    that were the case you'd have to discount every prophet previous to Jesus.

    I'm not convinced that a claim to Messiahship is necessary.

    Can you name any false Messiah's, either pre or post Jesus (the man)?
    The only one I can think of is Simon bar Kokhba, who came about a
    century after Jesus.
    GB has given you one. I seem to recall that at least one of the leaders
    of the AD 70 revolt claimed to be the messiah. Gamaliel referred to a
    couple by name in Acts 5:36, 37 and specifies that they were before Jesus.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Mon Dec 29 06:26:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 28/12/2025 23:28, Graham Nye wrote:

    It's Italy's largest. It was Pope Francis' wish, expressed in the bull
    linked from the link I posted.
    It may be the largest, but it is by no means the only. It does seem odd
    that prisoners there should be given grace not extended to other prisons
    and prisoners.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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  • From John@megane.06@gmail.com to uk.religion.christian on Tue Dec 30 11:14:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 29/12/2025 06:20, Kendall K. Down wrote:
    On 28/12/2025 14:40, John wrote:

    Thanks GB, my OT knowledge is very sparse, so I wasn't aware of it. It
    reminds me of the 1800's a bit, when there was a huge expectation of
    the return of Jesus, which spawned 3 major sects still in existence
    today.

    In both cases, I believe, the expectations were based upon Bible
    prophecy. In the 1st century AD it would have been the prophecy of
    Daniel 9, which was understood to mean that there would be 490 years
    from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the Messiah. In the 19th century
    it was the prophecy of Daniel 8, which was understood to mean that from
    the same starting point - the rebuilding of Jerusalem - there would be
    2,300 years until "the sanctuary shall be cleansed".

    The "sanctuary" which required cleansing was believed to be the earth,
    and the "cleansing" would be the return of Christ. The trouble is that
    this ignores the two facts that in the 19th century (and still today)
    there is no earthly sanctuary - and hasn't been since AD 70, and
    secondly that Christian belief focusses on the sanctuary in heaven as described in Hebrews 8.

    Thanks for the summary Ken.

    Two of the sects referred to above are the SDA and the JWs. I'm not sure which is the third. Can you elucidate, John?

    I had in mind the Christadelphians as well, but probably could also
    include the Plymouth Brethren, although they aren't as prolific as the
    other three.



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  • From Kendall K. Down@kendallkdown@googlemail.com to uk.religion.christian on Thu Jan 1 04:58:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.religion.christian

    On 30/12/2025 11:14, John wrote:

    I had in mind the Christadelphians as well, but probably could also
    include the Plymouth Brethren, although they aren't as prolific as the
    other three.
    Thanks. I wasn't aware that either of them were spawned by the
    millennial expectations of the 1840s, but you may be right.

    God bless,
    Kendall K. Down
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com



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