I find it ironic that people with no Christian background, reading the
Bible and taking it literally, reach the correct conclusion about the Sabbath. Only those who have been biassed by fellow Christians fail to
see Bible truth.
As usual I turned up at church early and sat in my van reading until
the person with the key arrived. It was as well that I came early, as
about five minutes after I parked a young chap I had not seen before
walked into the car park and looked around. I got out and we had a
short conversation.
His story was that he became a born-again Christian some six years ago
and started to read the Bible. While doing so he discovered that
Saturday was the Sabbath and was disappointed that all the churches he
knew observed Sunday. So for six years he has been keeping the Sabbath
all on his own.
However this past week he came across mention of the SDA church on
YouTube, did a search on Google, and discovered the group which meets
about two miles from his home. Finding out that he was too early for
the service, he went off to have breakfast at a nearby cafe and
returned at the right time. He appeared to enjoy the service and
contributed to the Bible study discussion.
It so happened that the lay-preacher taking the service used to be an
atheist until five years go when, for some reason, he started to read
the Bible. As a result he gave his life to Christ but encountered the
same problem when he began to look for a church home. His Bible
reading had shown him that the Sabbath is Saturday, but all the
churches he encountered worshipped on Sunday.
I'm not sure how he discovered the SDA church, but he and his wife
turned up at the group in Wrexham the week after they began
worshipping in a disused chapel I found for them. Now he is a valued lay-preacher.
I find it ironic that people with no Christian background, reading the
Bible and taking it literally, reach the correct conclusion about the Sabbath. Only those who have been biassed by fellow Christians fail to
see Bible truth.
After all, as I tell my Christian friends, "According to Mark 2:28
Jesus is lord of the Sabbath, so I keep the Lord's Day. You, for
reasons best known to yourself, keep Sunday."
I think it is more complex than that and don't think your argument
follows automatically. The biblical commandments of the sabbath are
being interpreted in a context that different from that they were given
in: they are interpreted in the context of institutionalized
congregational worship, which is a social human construct which is not
at all mandated for the sabbath. e.g.
Christians congretate to worship on sunday. This is a new ritual they
have undertaken as a marker, but it cannot be claimed that this worship
can by any means attempts to fulfil the (biblical) sabbath requirements.
After all, as I tell my Christian friends, "According to Mark 2:28 Jesus
is lord of the Sabbath, so I keep the Lord's Day. You, for reasons best known to yourself, keep Sunday."
Curiously, I have no problem with Christians meeting to worship on
Sunday or any other day of the week. My problem is a) when they attempt
to impose Sabbath-like conditions on Sunday, which has happened in the
past and still happens in many places and among mnay denominations. b)
when they neglect to rest on the Sabbath. As you rightly point out, rest
on the Sabbath is the crux of the fourth commandment.
So by neglecting to rest on the Sabbath and enforcing rest on the
Sunday, most Christians are guilty of a double fault.
On 17/11/2025 15:29, Madhu wrote:
Christians congretate to worship on sunday. This is a new ritual they
have undertaken as a marker, but it cannot be claimed that this worship
can by any means attempts to fulfil the (biblical) sabbath requirements.
Curiously, I have no problem with Christians meeting to worship on
Sunday or any other day of the week. My problem is a) when they attempt
to impose Sabbath-like conditions on Sunday, which has happened in the
past and still happens in many places and among mnay denominations. b)
when they neglect to rest on the Sabbath. As you rightly point out, rest
on the Sabbath is the crux of the fourth commandment.
So by neglecting to rest on the Sabbath and enforcing rest on the
Sunday, most Christians are guilty of a double fault.
My opinion, FWIW, is that this is one of the things covered by the decision made by the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15, where it was
decided that Gentile believers were not bound by Jewish Law. Although the Sabbath isn't explicitly mentioned there, I think it's reasonable to assume that it is included. Given that many Gentile believers lived in locations where Saturday (or whatever it was called in their culture) was a normal working day, requiring them to observe it as a day of rest would, in any case, have been an unreasonable burden of exactly the kind mentioned by
Peter in Acts 15:10.
From that perspective, therefore, Christians are not bound by Law to observe the Sabbath. The normal Christian day of congregational worship is Sunday,
as chosen by the early church to reflect the day of the resurrection, and this is the day that should, as far as possible, be prioritised for meeting together (as mentioned in Hebrews 10:25).
However, although there is no Law of Sabbath rest for Christians, it is
still a practical and valuable principle to observe a day of rest, both from an entirely natural perspective to give mind and body a break from the pressures of work and from a spiritual perspective to have a time of diverting attention away from the things of the world. For the majority of Christians, treating Sunday as that day of rest makes practical sense, even though it is not commanded by Law, becae it is already the day that they
will be prioritising for meeting together in worship (as above). But, precisely because it is not commanded by Law, it is an error to attempt to enforce it on those who make other choices. And it is equally not wrong for Christians who wish to do so to treat Saturday as their day of rest and, if they feel it beneficial, to observe it as the Sabbath.
Mark
On 18/11/2025 12:16, Mark Goodge wrote:
From that perspective, therefore, Christians are not bound by Law to observe
the Sabbath. The normal Christian day of congregational worship is Sunday, >> as chosen by the early church to reflect the day of the resurrection, and
this is the day that should, as far as possible, be prioritised for meeting >> together (as mentioned in Hebrews 10:25).
However, although there is no Law of Sabbath rest for Christians, it is
still a practical and valuable principle to observe a day of rest, both from >> an entirely natural perspective to give mind and body a break from the
pressures of work and from a spiritual perspective to have a time of
diverting attention away from the things of the world. For the majority of >> Christians, treating Sunday as that day of rest makes practical sense, even >> though it is not commanded by Law, becae it is already the day that they
will be prioritising for meeting together in worship (as above). But,
precisely because it is not commanded by Law, it is an error to attempt to >> enforce it on those who make other choices. And it is equally not wrong for >> Christians who wish to do so to treat Saturday as their day of rest and, if >> they feel it beneficial, to observe it as the Sabbath.
It's always been my own view that ideally both days should be kept, that
is, a two-day weekend. The Saturday being a day for recreation and/or >relaxation, and Sunday (morning, preferably) for congregational worship.
But of course that won't be possible for everyone, or in every
circumstance. So I believe at a minimum there should be a day per week
for recreation, 'family' time, etc., and also another time set aside for >worship, even if these cannot be done at the 'ideal' times.
On Wed, 19 Nov 2025 08:01:39 +0000, Timreason <timreason@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 18/11/2025 12:16, Mark Goodge wrote:
From that perspective, therefore, Christians are not bound by Law to observe
the Sabbath. The normal Christian day of congregational worship is Sunday, >>> as chosen by the early church to reflect the day of the resurrection, and >>> this is the day that should, as far as possible, be prioritised for meeting >>> together (as mentioned in Hebrews 10:25).
However, although there is no Law of Sabbath rest for Christians, it is
still a practical and valuable principle to observe a day of rest, both from
an entirely natural perspective to give mind and body a break from the
pressures of work and from a spiritual perspective to have a time of
diverting attention away from the things of the world. For the majority of >>> Christians, treating Sunday as that day of rest makes practical sense, even >>> though it is not commanded by Law, becae it is already the day that they >>> will be prioritising for meeting together in worship (as above). But,
precisely because it is not commanded by Law, it is an error to attempt to >>> enforce it on those who make other choices. And it is equally not wrong for >>> Christians who wish to do so to treat Saturday as their day of rest and, if >>> they feel it beneficial, to observe it as the Sabbath.
It's always been my own view that ideally both days should be kept, that
is, a two-day weekend. The Saturday being a day for recreation and/or
relaxation, and Sunday (morning, preferably) for congregational worship.
But of course that won't be possible for everyone, or in every
circumstance. So I believe at a minimum there should be a day per week
for recreation, 'family' time, etc., and also another time set aside for
worship, even if these cannot be done at the 'ideal' times.
Yes, although it's worth bearing in mind here that the idea of a two-day weekend is very recent in overall terms. Until the industrial revolution, everybody worked every day except their holy days. Over the course of the 19th century it became more common for Saturday to either be a half day or a full day off, but it wasn't until the mid 20th century that the five day working week became the norm. The idea of a separate day of rest and day of worship would have been unknown to the Biblical authors, and for the vast majority of Christian history.
Mark
I do agree with this, and I have recounted previously that, when IApart from keeping the wrong day, I understand and approve of your scruples.
became a Christian, I felt I could no longer work overnight at the
petrol station I worked at part time, as the Saturday shift took me to 8
am on the Sunday morning. They wanted me to stay on for a couple of
weeks but I was insistent I needed to leave immediately, as I couldn't
work on the Sunday due to becoming a Christian. Stupid when I looked
back, but at the time I felt that to relent I would be disobeying God.
My opinion, FWIW, is that this is one of the things covered by the decision made by the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15, where it was
decided that Gentile believers were not bound by Jewish Law. Although the Sabbath isn't explicitly mentioned there, I think it's reasonable to assume that it is included. Given that many Gentile believers lived in locations where Saturday (or whatever it was called in their culture) was a normal working day, requiring them to observe it as a day of rest would, in any case, have been an unreasonable burden of exactly the kind mentioned by
Peter in Acts 15:10.
From that perspective, therefore, Christians are not bound by Law to observe the Sabbath. The normal Christian day of congregational worship is Sunday,
as chosen by the early church to reflect the day of the resurrection, and this is the day that should, as far as possible, be prioritised for meeting together (as mentioned in Hebrews 10:25).
However, although there is no Law of Sabbath rest for Christians, it is
still a practical and valuable principle to observe a day of rest, both from an entirely natural perspective to give mind and body a break from the pressures of work and from a spiritual perspective to have a time of diverting attention away from the things of the world.
For the majority ofThank you. Your lukewarm approval of those who obey God is better than
Christians, treating Sunday as that day of rest makes practical sense, even though it is not commanded by Law, becae it is already the day that they
will be prioritising for meeting together in worship (as above). But, precisely because it is not commanded by Law, it is an error to attempt to enforce it on those who make other choices. And it is equally not wrong for Christians who wish to do so to treat Saturday as their day of rest and, if they feel it beneficial, to observe it as the Sabbath.
It's always been my own view that ideally both days should be kept, that
is, a two-day weekend. The Saturday being a day for recreation and/or relaxation, and Sunday (morning, preferably) for congregational worship.
Yes, although it's worth bearing in mind here that the idea of a two-day weekend is very recent in overall terms. Until the industrial revolution, everybody worked every day except their holy days. Over the course of the 19th century it became more common for Saturday to either be a half day or a full day off, but it wasn't until the mid 20th century that the five day working week became the norm. The idea of a separate day of rest and day of worship would have been unknown to the Biblical authors, and for the vast majority of Christian history.
Agreed. But I believe the Genesis writing suggests a day should be set
apart from the normal routine in that way. Then the early church set a pattern of worship on the day after that day. So although it took
centuries to come about, I still think it fits. But I also agree that it
is not mandated for Christians to keep the Saturday sabbath, although I think it is beneficial.
If you keep the Sabbath you are obeying the Jewish law.
Christians are under no obligation to obey the Jewish law, save for the restrictions in Acts 15.-a Perhaps you can point me to which of the
writers in the NT said Christians should folow the Sabbath.
As the church grew, and with many Christians gathering on the Sunday, to commemorate the day He was ressurected, eventually that became the
Christian Holy day.
As a slight aside, in God's eyes, which 24 hours is Saturday?-a Is it the European one, the American one, the middle Eastern one?-a Should thereI like to think of there being 24 hours during which the Sabbath rolls
even be a Sabbath in Iceland?
On 18/11/2025 12:07, John wrote:
If you keep the Sabbath you are obeying the Jewish law.
In exactly the same way as if I honour my parents I am obeying the
Jewish law. *God's* law was given to God's people, but it is no more restricted to them than is the commant "Thou shalt not kill".
Christians are under no obligation to obey the Jewish law, save for
the restrictions in Acts 15.-a Perhaps you can point me to which of the
writers in the NT said Christians should folow the Sabbath.
Well, Jesus kept the Sabbath and Acts records some of the times that St
Paul kept the Sabbath. There is no record that Christians kept any other day.
As the church grew, and with many Christians gathering on the Sunday,
to commemorate the day He was ressurected, eventually that became the
Christian Holy day.
Yes, after AD 450 at the earliest. Catholics claims that they changed
the day and I think it likely that they are correct. Just as with
Easter, it was a mark of Roman authority.
As a slight aside, in God's eyes, which 24 hours is Saturday?-a Is itI like to think of there being 24 hours during which the Sabbath rolls around the globe (actually, probably something like 36 hours) and praise ascends to God continually starting at the International Date Line
the European one, the American one, the middle Eastern one?-a Should
there even be a Sabbath in Iceland?
(wasn't that created by God?) and ending at the same.
Strangely, Christians in Iceland or northern Norway seem to have no
problem observing Sunday. I am sure they would be equally ingenious if
they kept the Sabbath.
I've copied the above from a Reddit post but it does repudiate your claim.
I kinda got that wrong. I had in mind that the sun doesn't properly set
but I realise it makes no difference as their day will still be a 24
hour one.
On 22/11/2025 02:12, John wrote:
I've copied the above from a Reddit post but it does repudiate your
claim.
No, it doesn't repudiate my claim (I think you mean "disprove"), but it
does show that there was variety of opinion. If the case was as clear as
you claim, then why did the Council of Laodicea in AD 363 feel it
necessary to condemn those who kept the Sabbath? (Canon 29) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea
I'm sure there were some Christians who still kept the Sabbath, but it's obvious Sunday was increasingly regarded as the day to rest and worship
as time went on, and dates back to before AD106
I should say that I have absolutely no objection to you (or anyone else) keeping the Sabbath. I don't, however, believe it's bindng on Christians.I agree. It's about as binding on Christians as the prohibition against adultery or the positive command about honouring one's parents. I
On 22/11/2025 15:51, John wrote:
I'm sure there were some Christians who still kept the Sabbath, but
it's obvious Sunday was increasingly regarded as the day to rest and
worship as time went on, and dates back to before AD106
According to both Sozomen and Socrates Scholasticus, all Christians
apart from those in Rome and Alexandria, kept the Sabbath in their day - which was early 400s. It is legitimate to wonder whether the sources you quoted - and you quoted accurately and correctly - were actually
reflecting the practice of their day or were promoting what they wished
was the practice.
I should say that I have absolutely no objection to you (or anyone
else) keeping the Sabbath. I don't, however, believe it's bindng on
Christians.
I agree. It's about as binding on Christians as the prohibition against adultery or the positive command about honouring one's parents. I
presume you are similarly broad-minded about those legalists who (mistakenly) think that as Christians they should not commit the
occasional murder.
As I posted previously, I don't keep the Jewish Sabbath; I keep the
Sabbath established by God at Creation, commanded by God at Sinai, and observed by God in Nazareth. If you wish to keep the day commanded by
the pope you are welcome to do so - see, I can be broadminded too - but
you had better rehearse in advance the excuses you are going to give God when He asks you why you chose to ignore what He commanded.
Going by the wording, I would suggest it was in practice
Now you do realise that Sozomen is (at least in part) quoting Socrates, don't you?
Which is a minor thing, but do you also realise it's not about
Christians observing the Sabbath in the way God instructed for the Jews.
It was a day of fasting, performed at Easter, in commemoration of Jesus
in the tomb. Chapter 22 is all about the Easter period.
To quote Socrates properly -
And among various nations there are other usages, for which innumerable reasons are assigned. *Since however no one can produce a written
command as an authority, it is evident that the apostles left each one
to his own free will in the matter, to the end that each might perform
what is good not by constraint or necessity.* Such is the difference in
the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in
regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches
throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of
every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of
some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Theba|>s, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the
mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after
having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the
evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.-a (My emphasis)
If it is a factor, I will simply quote Acts 15, which is quite explicit
on which Jewish laws Christians are obliged to follow
You equate not following the Sabbath as a sin against God.-a Are you suggesting therefore, that Christians who don't follow the Sabbath willDisobedience to God is sin. You don't disagree, I trust?
not receive eternal life?-a What are your grounds for believing it's a sin?
On 27/11/2025 11:43, John wrote:
Going by the wording, I would suggest it was in practice
Could be. I'm not going to argue the point.
Now you do realise that Sozomen is (at least in part) quoting
Socrates, don't you?
i have read both authors in full (not just picking out handy quotes) and while I would agree that Sozomen is heavily reliant on the prior author,
I am not convinced that he copied him.
Which is a minor thing, but do you also realise it's not about
Christians observing the Sabbath in the way God instructed for the
Jews. It was a day of fasting, performed at Easter, in commemoration
of Jesus in the tomb. Chapter 22 is all about the Easter period.
Nonsense.
To quote Socrates properly -
I assure you that I am completely familiar with what both of them say.
The link with Easter is that both authors are arguing against
intolerance. "Here is a list of all the ways in which Christians differ
from one another, so why are we getting all uptight about when to
celebrate Easter?" is their basic argument.
If it is a factor, I will simply quote Acts 15, which is quite
explicit on which Jewish laws Christians are obliged to follow
Thank you for pointing that out to me. So according to you Christians
are free to steal, covet, commit murder and utter blasphemies. Life in
your church must be interesting - nasty, brutish and short, but damn interesting.
You equate not following the Sabbath as a sin against God.-a Are you
suggesting therefore, that Christians who don't follow the Sabbath
will not receive eternal life?-a What are your grounds for believing
it's a sin?
However I would also argue that it must be knowing and deliberate disobedience to God. The majority of Christians do not - or so I believe
- keep Sunday in knowing and deliberate defiance of God. God is their
judge, but my opinion is that they are not damned. However, as a general rule, it is always safer to obey God in everything.
Then I suggst you read Socrates chapter 22 agaim, because it's all about Easter.
I know you're blinkered because of your adherance to Adventist
teaching, but he points out himself there is no binding to follow the Sabbath, which was my emphasis.
I would suggest Socrates is talking more
about fasting, but if yoiu choose to ignore the context, that's your problem, not mine.
I'm not a Christian, so your sarcasm was lost on me, but of course,
loving God and your neighbour would prevent you from the things you describe.
If you can show me elsewhere in the bible where it states Christians
should obey the Mosaic law, save for the few in Acts 15, I'll concede
the debate.
If a Christian goes against God, do you believe that the Holy Spirit
will convict them of their sin and lead them to repentance?-a Strange
then that He only guides a certain few to believe you have to be a
Sabbath keeper.
Does God allow someone to persistently sin without leading them to repentance?-a Persistent sin leads to death according to 1 John, so
either you've got it wrong about the Sabbath or there's only going to be
a handful of Sabbath keepers in Heaven.-a You can't say it's disobedience
to God while also saying Sunday worshippers will still go to Heaven.
I should say that I have absolutely no objection to you (or anyone
else) keeping the Sabbath. I don't, however, believe it's bindng on Christians.
I agree. It's about as binding on Christians as the prohibition against adultery or the positive command about honouring one's parents. I
presume you are similarly broad-minded about those legalists who (mistakenly) think that as Christians they should not commit the
occasional murder.
On 28/11/2025 11:22, John wrote:
I know you're blinkered because of your adherance to Adventist
teaching, but he points out himself there is no binding to follow the
Sabbath, which was my emphasis.
Perhaps you would quote that particular statement?
"Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although
almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries
on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at
Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this."
The context makes no difference to what Socrates says about the weekly Sabbath. "Almost all churches" observe the weekly Sabbath. It is the
very throw-away nature of his comment that is so significant; the
Sabbath is not under attack, it is merely evidence that some Christians
- Rome and Alexandria - have a different custom and are not attacked for
it, so diversity rules.
I'm not a Christian, so your sarcasm was lost on me, but of course,
loving God and your neighbour would prevent you from the things you
describe.
1. Love for your neighbour is not mentioned in Acts 15.
2. The Inquisition managed to harmonise love for both God and neighbour
with burning the neighbour to death.
If you can show me elsewhere in the bible where it states Christians
should obey the Mosaic law, save for the few in Acts 15, I'll concede
the debate.
I don't want to split hairs on the issue, but generally speaking the
term "Mosaic law" is not applied to the Ten Commandments. They are
called "Moral Law", as in the 39 Articles. The so-called Mosaic Law
begins in Exodus 21.
And as pointed out above, Socrates says the Apostles left these things
to the will of the individual, the clincher being "Nor is there less variation in regard to religious ceremonies"
No, but it was mentioned by Jesus as being one of two essential commandments, which, as far as I'm aware, are not part of the Mosaic law
but nethertheless, important for the Christian to follow.
Strange then that Jesus only mentioned 5 as necessary for eternal life.
I believe Christians shouldn't do anything that hurts anyone else.-a Most
of the 10 commandments are moral absolutes I agree, but I don't think
the Sabbath one does.
Could you enlighten me as to why the 10 commandments are not part of the mosaic law, but a set of seperate moral absolutes?
I've always seen the 10 commanments as the first of the 613, so that's something new to ne.I am not sufficiently familiar with Jewish teaching to know whether the
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