• Re: yet more on copyright, Jacobite defeated?

    From Charles Ellson@charlesellson@btinternet.com to uk.railway on Mon Feb 23 21:10:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 02:00:37 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
    <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

    According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
    applies. Similarly surely the UK copyright laws apply in the UK, not
    the US copyright law?

    It does, but since the US federal government does not claim copyright
    on its work, it is in practice in the public domain everywhere.

    of registration. UK is a bit odd because it doesn't require specific >>registration (unlike Trademarks).

    It's not odd, it's required by the Berne convention, no formalities
    are needed for a work to be copyrighted. In the US if you register the >copyright you have more legal recourse agaisnt infringers, dunno how
    that works in the UK.

    Often by either or both of ensuring that a legal deposit copy of a
    relevant work is sent to the British Library and/or causing some other
    evidence of the date of creation. You can do the latter by things like
    sending a copy by registered post for storage unopened by your
    solicitor or other party accepted (as a matter of fact not
    registration) by a court as trustworthy.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.railway on Tue Feb 24 08:23:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    In message <k2gppktpbgg8n9t2atn71r37ept8fp8dqm@4ax.com>, at 21:10:09 on
    Mon, 23 Feb 2026, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
    remarked:
    On Mon, 23 Feb 2026 02:00:37 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
    <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

    According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
    applies. Similarly surely the UK copyright laws apply in the UK, not >>>>the US copyright law?

    It does, but since the US federal government does not claim copyright
    on its work, it is in practice in the public domain everywhere.

    of registration. UK is a bit odd because it doesn't require specific >>>registration (unlike Trademarks).

    It's not odd, it's required by the Berne convention, no formalities
    are needed for a work to be copyrighted. In the US if you register the >>copyright you have more legal recourse agaisnt infringers, dunno how
    that works in the UK.

    Often by either or both of ensuring that a legal deposit copy of a
    relevant work is sent to the British Library and/or causing some other >evidence of the date of creation. You can do the latter by things like >sending a copy by registered post for storage unopened by your
    solicitor or other party accepted (as a matter of fact not
    registration) by a court as trustworthy.

    Registered Post hasn't existed for over a decade. It's also very poor evidence, because you can send an unsealed envelope, and put something
    inside later.
    --
    Roland Perry
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.railway on Tue Feb 24 16:42:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On 24/02/2026 08:23, Roland Perry wrote:

    Registered Post hasn't existed for over a decade. It's also very poor evidence, because you can send an unsealed envelope, and put something inside later.




    Will this do?


    Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed: This is the most secure
    option, offering full tracking, signature on delivery, and higher
    compensation for valuables, money, or important documents.
    Royal Mail Signed For (1st or 2nd Class): Provides confirmation of delivery and a signature, but with lower compensation (up to -u20)
    compared to special delivery.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.railway on Tue Feb 24 17:16:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    In message <10nkkdc$15vh$4@dont-email.me>, at 16:42:20 on Tue, 24 Feb
    2026, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
    On 24/02/2026 08:23, Roland Perry wrote:
    Registered Post hasn't existed for over a decade. It's also very
    poor evidence, because you can send an unsealed envelope, and put >>something inside later.

    Will this do?

    That's the current terminology, but doesn't solve the "post an unsealed
    empty envelope" scam.

    Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed: This is the most secure
    option, offering full tracking, signature on delivery, and higher >compensation for valuables, money, or important documents.

    Royal Mail Signed For (1st or 2nd Class): Provides confirmation of
    delivery and a signature, but with lower compensation (up to u20)
    compared to special delivery.
    --
    Roland Perry
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.railway on Wed Feb 25 22:37:34 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 21:49:33 +0000, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2026 14:54:23 +0000, ColinR
    <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

    On 22/02/2026 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10neuse$24dsq$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:04:12 on Sun, 22 Feb
    2026, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
    On 22/02/2026 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:

    aThat's right. The philosophy is that taxpayers have already paid for >>>>> thea production of the material, and therefore deserve to be able to >>>>> get aa copy free-of-any_extra-charge.

    But as I pointed out, the files are often printed out cheaply and
    sold. They are theoretically only free of copyright in the USA.

    They are probably free of copyright to all US citizens, wherever they live. >>
    You may be right but I suspect not. After all the US "right to bear
    arms" does not apply in the UK, the UK laws relating to firearms
    applies. Similarly surely the UK copyright laws apply in the UK, not the >>US copyright law?

    Just saying!

    If it was published as free of copyright in the USA then that would in
    the UK presumably kick it into "fair dealing" territory in the UK but
    not if the USA wished to limit the public domain status to its own
    territory.

    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention. That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in
    any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Member states are free to set their own ancillary rules about permitted uses
    of copyright works (hence the different, and incompatible, concepts of "fair use" in the US and "fair dealing" in the UK), and they are free to choose to have a longer copyright term than the minimum required by the convention. So there are things you can do with a copyright work in the US that you can't
    do in the UK, and vice versa, and the term of copyright may expire at
    different times in different countries. But a newly published work will
    always have exactly the same copyright status in every signatory territory.

    That said, the US federal government is unusual in placing its works into
    the public domain. The most common approach, taken by the UK and other
    European countries, is to retain copyright but publish the works under a permissive licence (eg, in the UK, the Open Government Licence). That still allows them to be freely copied, but enables the author to retain certain rights (such as the right of attribution) and prevent certain abusive uses
    of the works (such as falsely claiming to be an official publisher).

    Mark
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John Levine@johnl@taugh.com to uk.railway on Thu Feb 26 02:10:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    According to Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>:
    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the >public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention. >That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in >any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every >other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Not quite. It says "Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which
    they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union
    other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective
    laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the
    rights specially granted by this Convention."

    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of
    the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,
    absurd though that sounds. In the Netherlands, you can decline moral
    rights but not other parts of copyright.

    In practice, if someone says "I renounce the copyright on this work
    and I do not care what anyone does with it", the risk of trouble if
    you use it is pretty small, but it's not zero.
    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.railway on Thu Feb 26 07:31:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    In message <10noa22$sei$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 02:10:10 on Thu, 26 Feb
    2026, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
    According to Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>:
    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the >>public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention. >>That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in >>any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every >>other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Not quite. It says "Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which
    they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union
    other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective
    laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the
    rights specially granted by this Convention."

    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in >Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of
    the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,

    There's a big problem with the copyright on abandoned 1980's/90's
    computer software (many of which are video games, much in demand at the moment).

    An exercise for the reader: who owns the copyright on the Sinclair
    Spectrum BASIC, Clive didn't when he sold it to Amstrad!

    absurd though that sounds. In the Netherlands, you can decline moral
    rights but not other parts of copyright.

    In practice, if someone says "I renounce the copyright on this work
    and I do not care what anyone does with it", the risk of trouble if
    you use it is pretty small, but it's not zero.

    A trick that some people use, iirc, when making a reproduction games
    machine, is to use recycled ROMs from original equipment (or even
    ancient spare parts).
    --
    Roland Perry
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Recliner@recliner.usenet@gmail.com to uk.railway on Thu Feb 26 13:45:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 07:31:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <10noa22$sei$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 02:10:10 on Thu, 26 Feb
    2026, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
    According to Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>:
    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the >>>public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention. >>>That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in >>>any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every >>>other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Not quite. It says "Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which
    they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union
    other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective
    laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the >>rights specially granted by this Convention."

    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in >>Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of
    the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,

    There's a big problem with the copyright on abandoned 1980's/90's
    computer software (many of which are video games, much in demand at the >moment).

    An exercise for the reader: who owns the copyright on the Sinclair
    Spectrum BASIC, Clive didn't when he sold it to Amstrad!

    Nine Tiles Networks?
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Certes@Certes@example.org to uk.railway on Thu Feb 26 15:50:00 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On 26/02/2026 13:45, Recliner wrote:
    On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 07:31:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <10noa22$sei$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 02:10:10 on Thu, 26 Feb
    2026, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
    According to Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>:
    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the
    public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention.
    That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in
    any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every >>>> other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Not quite. It says "Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which
    they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union
    other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective
    laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the
    rights specially granted by this Convention."

    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in
    Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of
    the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,

    There's a big problem with the copyright on abandoned 1980's/90's
    computer software (many of which are video games, much in demand at the
    moment).

    An exercise for the reader: who owns the copyright on the Sinclair
    Spectrum BASIC, Clive didn't when he sold it to Amstrad!

    Nine Tiles Networks?

    Good shout. I remember going to a talk 40+ years ago by their founder
    (who sadly didn't answer that question, as far as I recall). I'm very pleasantly surprised to see that they still exist in recognisable form.
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John Levine@johnl@taugh.com to uk.railway on Thu Feb 26 18:19:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in >>Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of
    the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,

    There's a big problem with the copyright on abandoned 1980's/90's
    computer software (many of which are video games, much in demand at the >moment).

    No kidding, and software is the least of the problem.

    Here in the US, anything published after 1930 is potentially still in copyright. Pre-1976 works need a copyright notice and have to have
    been registered and renewed at the Copyright Office, but it's not easy
    to search their records, particularly if you have a few pages of text
    and no idea what book or magazine it came from.

    Compounding the problem, under US law it is not a defence that you
    made a good faith search for the copyright owner. If you look, don't
    find anyone, reuse the material, then the owner comes out of the
    woodwork, you lose and may have to pay potentially enormous damages.

    Everyone agrees that orphan works are a problem but can't agree on
    what to do about it.

    In the UK you have an orphan works registry which is cumbersome but
    at least limits the liability to a small knowable amount:

    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/copyright-orphan-works
    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.railway on Fri Feb 27 07:38:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    In message <ddj0qkp4df1ntbmjig6l8u7amp76u1af0c@4ax.com>, at 13:45:23 on
    Thu, 26 Feb 2026, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
    On Thu, 26 Feb 2026 07:31:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <10noa22$sei$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 02:10:10 on Thu, 26 Feb
    2026, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
    According to Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>:
    Anything that the author explicitly places into the public domain is in the >>>>public domain in any territory which is a signatory to the Berne Convention.
    That's fundamental to the convention requirement that any work published in >>>>any member territory has the same copyright status at publication in every >>>>other territory (via the "country of origin" rule).

    Not quite. It says "Authors shall enjoy, in respect of works for which >>>they are protected under this Convention, in countries of the Union
    other than the country of origin, the rights which their respective
    laws do now or may hereafter grant to their nationals, as well as the >>>rights specially granted by this Convention."

    That is, it has the same status as something written by a local
    author. What makes this complicated is that some countries let an
    author abandon a copyright, some don't. The Intertubes tell me that in >>>Australia the law on abandoned property is unclear and it's not out of >>>the question that "finders keepers" on abandoned copyright applies,

    There's a big problem with the copyright on abandoned 1980's/90's
    computer software (many of which are video games, much in demand at the >>moment).

    An exercise for the reader: who owns the copyright on the Sinclair
    Spectrum BASIC, Clive didn't when he sold it to Amstrad!

    Nine Tiles Networks?

    They originally developed the software, but the copyright has been
    re-assigned to at least five firms subsequently, the current question
    being, is there a sixth.
    --
    Roland Perry
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JMB99@mb@nospam.net to uk.railway on Fri Feb 27 07:57:07 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On 26/02/2026 18:19, John Levine wrote:
    Compounding the problem, under US law it is not a defence that you
    made a good faith search for the copyright owner. If you look, don't
    find anyone, reuse the material, then the owner comes out of the
    woodwork, you lose and may have to pay potentially enormous damages.


    I am involved in a project that adds records to an online register.
    They have many images with unknown source so they are classed as 'Orphan Works'. There is a statement that if the owner contacts them then the
    images will be taken offline.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From John Levine@johnl@taugh.com to uk.railway on Fri Feb 27 20:31:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    According to JMB99 <mb@nospam.net>:
    On 26/02/2026 18:19, John Levine wrote:
    Compounding the problem, under US law it is not a defence that you
    made a good faith search for the copyright owner. If you look, don't
    find anyone, reuse the material, then the owner comes out of the
    woodwork, you lose and may have to pay potentially enormous damages.

    I am involved in a project that adds records to an online register.
    They have many images with unknown source so they are classed as 'Orphan >Works'. There is a statement that if the owner contacts them then the
    images will be taken offline.

    Straying ever farther for British railways, if the site is in the US,
    there is the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act,
    better known as DMCA section 512 after another act which it was part of,
    which makes special rules for web sites. Under OCILLA if the
    copyright owner sends a takedown notice and you take it down, the
    web site operator has no liability, although the person who provided
    the material still does.

    It's not clear to me how much protection the UK orphan rights law
    provides in a similar situation.
    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.railway on Sat Feb 28 06:30:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    In message <10nsuv8$29v$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 20:31:36 on Fri, 27 Feb
    2026, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
    According to JMB99 <mb@nospam.net>:
    On 26/02/2026 18:19, John Levine wrote:
    Compounding the problem, under US law it is not a defence that you
    made a good faith search for the copyright owner. If you look, don't
    find anyone, reuse the material, then the owner comes out of the
    woodwork, you lose and may have to pay potentially enormous damages.

    I am involved in a project that adds records to an online register.
    They have many images with unknown source so they are classed as 'Orphan >>Works'. There is a statement that if the owner contacts them then the >>images will be taken offline.

    Straying ever farther for British railways, if the site is in the US,
    there is the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act,
    better known as DMCA section 512 after another act which it was part of, >which makes special rules for web sites. Under OCILLA if the
    copyright owner sends a takedown notice and you take it down, the
    web site operator has no liability, although the person who provided
    the material still does.

    Ah yes, DMCA a very good bit of legislation piloted by a friend of mine.
    We put much the same idea into article 14 of the Electronic Commerce Directive, giving website operators a safe harbour.

    Not forgetting Article 13(d) which was one of several clauses I drafted,
    which legalises browser caches, and says in practice "if you follow the
    rfcs".

    Without that, there was a very real possibility that every browser
    distributed would have to pay something akin to a 'blank tape levy' to
    a collection agency.

    ObRail: The meeting where agreement for that was sealed, held in Oslo,
    and I took the express train from the airport.

    It's not clear to me how much protection the UK orphan rights law
    provides in a similar situation.

    I don't think blowing potentially orphaned games into a compilation
    cartridge and selling it (I have one here with 400 Nintendo-handheld
    games) is quite the same thing as hosting on a website.
    --
    Roland Perry
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Charles Ellson@charlesellson@btinternet.com to uk.railway on Sun Mar 1 02:24:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    On Fri, 27 Feb 2026 20:31:36 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
    <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

    According to JMB99 <mb@nospam.net>:
    On 26/02/2026 18:19, John Levine wrote:
    Compounding the problem, under US law it is not a defence that you
    made a good faith search for the copyright owner. If you look, don't
    find anyone, reuse the material, then the owner comes out of the
    woodwork, you lose and may have to pay potentially enormous damages.

    I am involved in a project that adds records to an online register.
    They have many images with unknown source so they are classed as 'Orphan >>Works'. There is a statement that if the owner contacts them then the >>images will be taken offline.

    Straying ever farther for British railways, if the site is in the US,
    there is the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act,
    better known as DMCA section 512 after another act which it was part of, >which makes special rules for web sites. Under OCILLA if the
    copyright owner sends a takedown notice and you take it down, the
    web site operator has no liability, although the person who provided
    the material still does.

    It's not clear to me how much protection the UK orphan rights law
    provides in a similar situation.

    The Orphan Works Register - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/copyright-orphan-works#search-the-orphan-works-register
    has dates recorded for applications. That presumably kicks off the
    clock for determining when a civil action can no longer be brought
    (generally 6 years in England and Wales) due to the registration
    counting as equivalent to giving public notice.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Recliner@recliner.usenet@gmail.com to uk.railway on Mon Mar 2 22:41:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.railway

    There may or may not be steam trains to Mallaig this spring, but there will
    be a much more unusual visitor later this month:

    https://midlandpullman.com/journey/west-highland-pullman-27-03-26/
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2