The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need
to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and >the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking >risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport >does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the >capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:30, Recliner wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our >>>>>>>>> colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you >>>>>> need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations.
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the >>>>>> Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale
linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could >>>>>> reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued >>>>>> up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train >>>>>> would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last >>>>>> arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a >>>>> miserable experience.
Other than the sadly unavoidable international formalities and checks, in >>>> what way are they more miserable than UK domestic rail travel?
Herding into those toiletless refreshmentless pens before boarding.
ThatrCOs certainly not true of Eurostar. There are toilets and multiple food >> outlets in the departure waiting area. And a bureau de change.
Most airports have toilets near the gates. Refreshment provision varies,
but thererCOs usually some sort of machine or food kiosk near the gates. And >> airport business lounges are far better than first class lounges at
stations. The relatively few first class lounges, like the Concorde Room in >> T5, are even better. Not only is the freshly cooked food delicious, but I
find itrCOs served really quickly, ideal if your flight time is approaching. >>
https://owenbargreen.com/blog/2025/1/27/review-british-airways-concorde-room-lounge-london-heathrow-terminal-5
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-british-airways-club/2179439-lhr-concorde-room-ccr-menus-2025-a.html
The arrivals lounge is pretty good, too, though I seldom use it, preferring >> to go straight home instead.
The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need
to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and >the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking >risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport >does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the >capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
In message <10jg6g3$2nrts$3@dont-email.me>, at 11:15:15 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already >>>queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as
the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such
a miserable experience.
Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded and >>loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.
The problem is, unless you use such techniques, you can't get the rapid >turn-round, so aircraft maybe do only two return trips a day instead of >three, and that will be reflected in the prices.
If you want to be treated like royalty, pick Business Class on a carrier >like Emirates.
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already >>>queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as
the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax, >>>whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal
building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's >re-provisioning the catering.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them >>beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight.
I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 11:54:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan >2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already >>>queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as >>>the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax, >>>whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal >>>building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's >re-provisioning the catering.
Yes, indeed, but those activities can happen while passengers are either still departing the platform, or arriving for
the next service.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them >>beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight.
I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once, usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
In message <10je1vv$2o54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:46:07 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to
build the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is >>>very long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you
don't need to make that particular interchange. For example, change
from the Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that. >>Hardly convenient.
But closer than at new St Pancras
The old one was closed because the platforms were very narrow, and got >>>dangerously overcrowded in the rush hours.
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was never >>crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to build >>> the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is very
long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you don't need >>> to make that particular interchange. For example, change from the
Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that.
Hardly convenient.
So take the lift.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 13:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:30, Recliner wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan >>>>>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our >>>>>>>>>> colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you >>>>>>> need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations. >>>>>>>
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the >>>>>>> Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale >>>>>>> linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could >>>>>>> reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued >>>>>>> up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train >>>>>>> would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last >>>>>>> arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a >>>>>> miserable experience.
Other than the sadly unavoidable international formalities and checks, in >>>>> what way are they more miserable than UK domestic rail travel?
Herding into those toiletless refreshmentless pens before boarding.
ThatrCOs certainly not true of Eurostar. There are toilets and multiple food
outlets in the departure waiting area. And a bureau de change.
Most airports have toilets near the gates. Refreshment provision varies, >>> but thererCOs usually some sort of machine or food kiosk near the gates. And
airport business lounges are far better than first class lounges at
stations. The relatively few first class lounges, like the Concorde Room in >>> T5, are even better. Not only is the freshly cooked food delicious, but I >>> find itrCOs served really quickly, ideal if your flight time is approaching.
https://owenbargreen.com/blog/2025/1/27/review-british-airways-concorde-room-lounge-london-heathrow-terminal-5
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-british-airways-club/2179439-lhr-concorde-room-ccr-menus-2025-a.html
The arrivals lounge is pretty good, too, though I seldom use it, preferring >>> to go straight home instead.
The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need >> to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and >> the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking >> risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport >> does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the
capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
There's also a fair amount of seating by the E* departures area. I think
it's enough for normal circumstances, but soon
gets overwhelmed if e* services are disrupted. But you could hardly have
lots more eateries that only made money when
trains were disrupted!
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 11:54:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already
queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>> train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as
the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax,
whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal
building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's
re-provisioning the catering.
Yes, indeed, but those activities can happen while passengers are either still departing the platform, or arriving for
the next service.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them
beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight.
I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once,
usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no
option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 16:17:23 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to build >>>> the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is very >>>> long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you don't need >>>> to make that particular interchange. For example, change from the
Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that.
Hardly convenient.
So take the lift.
What lift?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 13:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:ThererCOs scope for more seating landside though. ThererCOs very little >provided.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:30, Recliner wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan >>>>>>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our >>>>>>>>>>> colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>>>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you
need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations. >>>>>>>>
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the
Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale >>>>>>>> linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could >>>>>>>> reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued
up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train >>>>>>>> would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last >>>>>>>> arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a
miserable experience.
Other than the sadly unavoidable international formalities and checks, in
what way are they more miserable than UK domestic rail travel?
Herding into those toiletless refreshmentless pens before boarding.
ThatrCOs certainly not true of Eurostar. There are toilets and multiple food
outlets in the departure waiting area. And a bureau de change.
Most airports have toilets near the gates. Refreshment provision varies, >>>> but thererCOs usually some sort of machine or food kiosk near the gates. And
airport business lounges are far better than first class lounges at
stations. The relatively few first class lounges, like the Concorde Room in
T5, are even better. Not only is the freshly cooked food delicious, but I >>>> find itrCOs served really quickly, ideal if your flight time is approaching.
https://owenbargreen.com/blog/2025/1/27/review-british-airways-concorde-room-lounge-london-heathrow-terminal-5
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-british-airways-club/2179439-lhr-concorde-room-ccr-menus-2025-a.html
The arrivals lounge is pretty good, too, though I seldom use it, preferring
to go straight home instead.
The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need >>> to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and >>> the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking >>> risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport
does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the
capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
There's also a fair amount of seating by the E* departures area. I think
it's enough for normal circumstances, but soon
gets overwhelmed if e* services are disrupted. But you could hardly have
lots more eateries that only made money when
trains were disrupted!
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no
option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:23:40 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 16:17:23 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to build >>>>> the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is very >>>>> long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you don't need >>>>> to make that particular interchange. For example, change from the
Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that. >>>> Hardly convenient.
So take the lift.
What lift?
Obviously, the ones from the Finsbury Park Tube and rail platforms! Which >ones did you think I meant?
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no
option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and exit. But >there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak times.
In message <10je1vv$2o54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:46:07 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to
build the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line
is very long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you
don't need to make that particular interchange. For example, change
from the Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that.
Hardly convenient.
But closer than at new St Pancras
Apparently the old one was closed due to not being able to lengthen
the platforms for 10 car trains, but why they couldn't simply have
used selective door opening on a walk through train beats me.
The old one was closed because the platforms were very narrow, and
got dangerously overcrowded in the rush hours.
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was never
crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree it
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk at >>>>> first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate
arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line
platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as
possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why
they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through
train
beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to
the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek through the
Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a
shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of
the tube lines have pass through at present.
is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops to
increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to stay
in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to the end
of the queue again.
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree. The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate
arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but
whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why they >>> couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through train >>> beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to the
Piccadilly line. That would also save the awful trek through the
Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a shopping
area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of the tube
lines have pass through at present.
The deep level Tubes are much better accessed from the northern LU ticket hall, which doesnrCOt involve TL pax walking through the Eurostar area.
a short distance. Of course that hasn't deterred them from having City >Thameslink open similarly close to Farringdon and Blackfriars.
In message <mrv0rjFpmjsU2@mid.individual.net>, at 11:22:27 on Sun, 4 Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:Yes, they are indeed (they are the area originally assigned for storage
On 04/01/2026 07:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <mrt3m4FcgddU1@mid.individual.net>, at 17:58:29 on Sat, 3
Jan-a 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
-aUnfortunately, apart from the spatial discontinuity (for example the-aI wonder if the whole arrivals process, including the surveillance >>>>> corridor, could be moved to the first floor? That would make it
similar to
GdN and Midi, where the inspection point is at the platform end.
Then-a have
ample escalator and lift capacity to disperse the arriving passengers >>>>> (those heading for EMR could stay on the same level, and there
could be
direct lifts down to TL. Maybe also lifts directly down to the LU
ticket
hall below?-a That would also provide a route to Kings Cross. And lifts >>>>> directly down to the taxi rank on Midland Road.
I agree that the arrivals could be speeded up by doing it on the
first-a floor - but lifts aren't very practical when a train of
several-a hundred people comes in.-a What's needed are more ramps or
escalators.
taxis and routes to Kings Cross are at the lower level), there simply
isn't the square footage. Unless you want to sacrifice the area
surrounding the kissing statue and evict the hospitality locations
beyond.
My preference would be to get rid of nearly all of the shopping centre
and have all of the station returned to railway purposes.
Sadly for your plan, those shops are one floor below the E* platforms.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:30, Recliner wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our >>>>>>>>> colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you >>>>>> need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations.
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the >>>>>> Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale
linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could >>>>>> reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued >>>>>> up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train >>>>>> would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last >>>>>> arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a >>>>> miserable experience.
Other than the sadly unavoidable international formalities and checks, in >>>> what way are they more miserable than UK domestic rail travel?
Herding into those toiletless refreshmentless pens before boarding.
ThatrCOs certainly not true of Eurostar. There are toilets and multiple food >> outlets in the departure waiting area. And a bureau de change.
Most airports have toilets near the gates. Refreshment provision varies,
but thererCOs usually some sort of machine or food kiosk near the gates. And >> airport business lounges are far better than first class lounges at
stations. The relatively few first class lounges, like the Concorde Room in >> T5, are even better. Not only is the freshly cooked food delicious, but I
find itrCOs served really quickly, ideal if your flight time is approaching. >>
https://owenbargreen.com/blog/2025/1/27/review-british-airways-concorde-room-lounge-london-heathrow-terminal-5
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-british-airways-club/2179439-lhr-concorde-room-ccr-menus-2025-a.html
The arrivals lounge is pretty good, too, though I seldom use it, preferring >> to go straight home instead.
The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need
to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:06, Recliner wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Yes, several more, plus extra space in the depot for a couple of trains
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>
being quick serviced.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
Yes, and when you think about it, it probably takes about 5-10 minutes for >>> all passengers to get off an arriving train. It might then take them
another 10 minutes to all depart the platform, but the carriage doors can >>> be closed, and cleaning started, while passengers are still on the
platform. In Japan, clearly uniformed cleaning teams are waiting with their >>> cleaning materials by the doors of arriving trains, and board as soon as >>> the last passenger steps off.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26438556090/in/album-72157665887082104
They clean the train and rotate the seats very quickly, leaving a polite >>> notice hanging in the open doorways while they work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26713775270/in/album-72157665887082104/
Polite but rather cryptic. "Just Moment Please" and a chicken(?) waving
a flag at some seafood doesn't really shout "cleaning in progress". No
doubt the Japanese text is clearer, but I can't type it in to translate.
With Eurostar, boarding currently starts 20 minutes before departure, but >>> the proposal is to increase this to perhaps 30 minutes, thus reducing the >>> crowding in the lounge, and allowing a more relaxed, leisurely boarding
experience. So, out of a 60 minutes turnaround time, the train would need >>> to be in the platform for 40 minutes anyway. Taking a 400m train out, and >>> bringing in another 400m train, doesnrCOt happen instantly, so there would be
hardly anything to be gained by going to the depot for cleaning and
restocking, even if the space was available.
HS1 to Stratford already has up to 7 tph domestic services, and if itrCOs to
have up to 6 tph international services, thatrCOs already almost up to full >>> capacity. There certainly wouldnrCOt be room for another 6 ECS trains. So the
idea of returning trains to the depot for cleaning and re-supply is a
non-starter.
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere that's
not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could sensibly
reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever they go to.
The Temple Mills depot is accessed via a single track connection from Stratford International. I very much doubt that this could handle 12 tph (6 tph in both directions).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9Avq7nuniE6iiCF28?g_st=ic
Another bottleneck that would prevent international trains returning to the depot for servicing is the complex pointwork in the station throat that connects the nine SPI platforms to the two-track HS1 covered bridge over
the ECML. There is also a junction to the link to the NLL. That arrangement certainly couldnrCOt manage almost 20 tph in each direction; even 13 will be a stretch.
I must admit that I have no recollection of such a suggestion, and the facilities for cleaning and re-stocking trains at St Pancras make clear
that it was not the plan when the station was designed. So in the absence
of some evidence from Roland, I think we can assume that there never was
such a plan. Perhaps it was just an idea circulating on social media?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 11:54:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already
queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>>> train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as >>>>> the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax, >>>>> whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal
building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's
re-provisioning the catering.
Yes, indeed, but those activities can happen while passengers are either
still departing the platform, or arriving for
the next service.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them >>>> beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight. >>>I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once,
usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
Both EMR and Scotrail, at least on the trains I use, have someone coming round with a rubbish bag.
On 04/01/2026 16:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10je1vv$2o54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:46:07 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to
build the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line
is very long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you >>>> don't need to make that particular interchange. For example, change
from the Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that.
Hardly convenient.
But closer than at new St Pancras
Apparently the old one was closed due to not being able to lengthen >>>>> the platforms for 10 car trains, but why they couldn't simply have
used selective door opening on a walk through train beats me.
The old one was closed because the platforms were very narrow, and
got dangerously overcrowded in the rush hours.
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was never
crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
I too used King's Cross Thameslink a few times a week for all the years
that it was open, sometimes at rush hours. I saw it pretty crowded at times, especially when trains were cancelled (this is Thameslink we are talking about so that was quite often). But I don't recall it ever
being crowded to the point of being unsafe - but of course anecdotes
don't prove that this never occurred.
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of folks like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or vice-versa.
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree it
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk at >>>>>> first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line
platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as >>>>> possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why >>>>> they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through
train
beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to
the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek through the >>>> Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a
shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of >>>> the tube lines have pass through at present.
is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops to
increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to stay
in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to the end
of the queue again.
It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many wheely-bags of
Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
On 04/01/2026 11:35, Recliner wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:Well my wife and I have tried both routes many many times, and I've
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree. The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate
arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why they >>>> couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through train >>>> beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to the >>> Piccadilly line. That would also save the awful trek through the
Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a shopping
area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of the tube
lines have pass through at present.
The deep level Tubes are much better accessed from the northern LU ticket
hall, which doesnrCOt involve TL pax walking through the Eurostar area.
timed it quite often, and though the northern ticket hall route is less congested with Eurostar passengers it does generally take a bit longer.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:35:10 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:23:40 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 16:17:23 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to build
the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is very >>>>>> long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you don't need
to make that particular interchange. For example, change from the >>>>>> Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that. >>>>> Hardly convenient.
So take the lift.
What lift?
Obviously, the ones from the Finsbury Park Tube and rail platforms! Which >> ones did you think I meant?
I mean I've never seen a lift on the northbound vic/pic platforms. Must be well hidden.
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 16:05:58 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10je1vv$2o54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:46:07 on Sun, 4 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to >>>>build the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line
is very long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so
you don't need to make that particular interchange. For example, >>>>change from the Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that. >>>Hardly convenient.
But closer than at new St Pancras
And being poked with a sharp stick is better than being hit by a flamethrower. >Hardly much consolation.
The old one was closed because the platforms were very narrow, and
got dangerously overcrowded in the rush hours.
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was never >>>crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
The old one was closed because the platforms were very narrow, and >>>>got dangerously overcrowded in the rush hours.
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was
never crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
I too used King's Cross Thameslink a few times a week for all the years
that it was open, sometimes at rush hours. I saw it pretty crowded at >times, especially when trains were cancelled (this is Thameslink we are >talking about so that was quite often). But I don't recall it ever
being crowded to the point of being unsafe - but of course anecdotes
don't prove that this never occurred.
I think it was closed just because the rail authorities thought that St >Pancras International Low Level (SPILL) would be a good enough
replacement,
and because they didn't want trains stopping twice in such a short
distance. Of course that hasn't deterred them from having City
Thameslink open similarly close to Farringdon and Blackfriars.
I think it could usefully be re-opened but advertised as an interchange
for Victoria and Piccadilly Lines only.
For the Circle/Met/H&C and for Northern it's not much closer than
SPILL.
And of course for those wanting mainline trains or the full retail >experience then SPILL is the one to use. But stopping there would
delay all through trains by a minute or two and that would mess up a
whole lot of timetables, so I doubt that it will ever happen. Pity.
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no
option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and exit. But >>there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a short >distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a subway from
TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the gates? Penny pinching
no doubt.
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you
need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations.
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the
Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale
linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could
reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued
up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train
would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last
arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a miserable experience.
Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded and loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line platformsI entirely agree. The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why they >>>> couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through train >>>> beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to the >>> Piccadilly line. That would also save the awful trek through the
Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a shopping
area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of the tube
lines have pass through at present.
The deep level Tubes are much better accessed from the northern LU >>ticket hall, which doesnrCOt involve TL pax walking through theWell my wife and I have tried both routes many many times, and I've
Eurostar area.
timed it quite often, and though the northern ticket hall route is less >congested with Eurostar passengers it does generally take a bit longer.
It is instructive to watch the operations on platform 1 at St.Pancras,
used by the trains to/from Corby (also called Luton Airport Express). >Typically a fullish 8-coach train arrives and passengers get off, the
driver changes ends, the cleaning staff get on board and collect litter >etc., and then a new load of passengers gets on. This is all done in
under 20 minutes, with typically 10 or 15 mins for the new load of >passengers to board. They have to, as the timetabled dwell time in
platform 1 is usually under 25 minutes. Of course a Eurostar train has
more carriages, but with more cleaning staff surely it could also be
cleaned in 10 or 15 minutes?
Both EMR and Scotrail, at least on the trains I use, have someone coming >round with a rubbish bag.
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of folks
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree it
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk at >>>>>>> first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line >>>>>> platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient as >>>>>> possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why >>>>>> they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through >>>>>> train
beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to >>>>> the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek through the >>>>> Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a
shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any of >>>>> the tube lines have pass through at present.
is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops to
increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to stay
in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to the end
of the queue again.
like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or vice-versa.
It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many wheely-bags of
Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
If yourCOre walking from SPILL to the Tube lines, why would you walk past the Eurostar entrance?
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and
exit. But
there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak
times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a
short
distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a subway
from
TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the gates? Penny pinching
no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern
end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
In message <ms26l5F9poqU6@mid.individual.net>, at 16:19:49 on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
It is instructive to watch the operations on platform 1 at St.Pancras,
used by the trains to/from Corby (also called Luton Airport Express).
Typically a fullish 8-coach train arrives and passengers get off, the
driver changes ends, the cleaning staff get on board and collect
litter etc., and then a new load of passengers gets on.-a This is all
done in under 20 minutes, with typically 10 or 15 mins for the new
load of passengers to board.-a They have to, as the timetabled dwell
time in platform 1 is usually under 25 minutes.-a Of course a Eurostar
train has more carriages, but with more cleaning staff surely it could
also be cleaned in 10 or 15 minutes?
I think that faster boarding of E* trains at StP would be frustrated by
the much longer walks to the designated carriage, plus having to
negotiate all the service vehicles parked haphazardly on the platforms.
On 05/01/2026 18:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >>>>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and >>>>exit. But there's plenty of other trains that serve that station,
so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a >>>short distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a >>>subway from TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the
gates? Penny pinching no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the
southern end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either
money or the crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the
Fleet River prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having
been diverted round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of
the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern >passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The
re-design of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of
it as a medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms
set around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the >importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
If yourCOre walking from SPILL to the Tube lines, why would you walk >>past the Eurostar entrance?Because it is the faster route. Not by much, but maybe half-a-minute
faster than going via the Northern ticket hall. For the Northern Line
it's much the same I agree,
but for the Picc and Victoria lines the route south then east is just a--
bit faster. Provided not too many Eurostar passengers get in the way.
I have measured it several times.
On 05/01/2026 18:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ms26l5F9poqU6@mid.individual.net>, at 16:19:49 on Mon, 5
Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
It is instructive to watch the operations on platform 1 at
St.Pancras, used by the trains to/from Corby (also called Luton
Airport Express). Typically a fullish 8-coach train arrives and >>>passengers get off, the driver changes ends, the cleaning staff get
on board and collect litter etc., and then a new load of passengers >>>gets on.a This is all done in under 20 minutes, with typically 10 or
15 mins for the new load of passengers to board.a They have to, as
the timetabled dwell time in platform 1 is usually under 25
minutes.a Of course a Eurostar train has more carriages, but with
more cleaning staff surely it could also be cleaned in 10 or 15 minutes?
I think that faster boarding of E* trains at StP would be frustrated
by the much longer walks to the designated carriage, plus having to >>negotiate all the service vehicles parked haphazardly on the platforms.
The other feature of Eurostar trains which makes boarding slow is that
they have only one pair of doors per carriage and several steep steps
up from the platform, especially awkward since nearly everyone is
carrying luggage. Getting rid of the service vehicles parked on the >platform should be easy
- redesigning all the trains would be much more expensive.--
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:The cooked breakfasts at the two I sometimes attend ,Salisbury and Frome
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course youQuick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>
need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations.
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the
Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale
linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could
reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued
up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train
would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last
arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a
miserable experience.
Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded and
loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.
are a lot nicer than you find at airports . DonrCOt know about St Pancras.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:25:19 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 13:13:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:ThererCOs scope for more seating landside though. ThererCOs very little
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:30, Recliner wrote:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan >>>>>>>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our >>>>>>>>>>>> colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at
17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course you
need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations. >>>>>>>>>
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the
Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale >>>>>>>>> linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could >>>>>>>>> reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued
up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train >>>>>>>>> would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last >>>>>>>>> arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a
miserable experience.
Other than the sadly unavoidable international formalities and checks, in
what way are they more miserable than UK domestic rail travel?
Herding into those toiletless refreshmentless pens before boarding. >>>>>>
ThatrCOs certainly not true of Eurostar. There are toilets and multiple food
outlets in the departure waiting area. And a bureau de change.
Most airports have toilets near the gates. Refreshment provision varies, >>>>> but thererCOs usually some sort of machine or food kiosk near the gates. And
airport business lounges are far better than first class lounges at
stations. The relatively few first class lounges, like the Concorde Room in
T5, are even better. Not only is the freshly cooked food delicious, but I >>>>> find itrCOs served really quickly, ideal if your flight time is approaching.
https://owenbargreen.com/blog/2025/1/27/review-british-airways-concorde-room-lounge-london-heathrow-terminal-5
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-british-airways-club/2179439-lhr-concorde-room-ccr-menus-2025-a.html
The arrivals lounge is pretty good, too, though I seldom use it, preferring
to go straight home instead.
The real problem for us provincials, both for airports and E*, is the need >>>> to build in recovery time to get to the airport/StP. Both rail services and
the motorway network are often subject to delays. So unless you like taking
risk thererCOs always extra tedious hanging around if your arrival transport
does run to time. StP, both land and airside doesnrCOt really have the >>>> capacity for this cohort of hanging around passengers.
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of >>> eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
There's also a fair amount of seating by the E* departures area. I think >>> it's enough for normal circumstances, but soon
gets overwhelmed if e* services are disrupted. But you could hardly have >>> lots more eateries that only made money when
trains were disrupted!
provided.
There's quite a few seats, but there certainly could and should be more, perhaps by creating a waiting room in the space
occupied by some of the less popular retailers. I suspect that the cafes would complain if too many free seats were
provided!
On 05/01/2026 18:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >>>>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and
exit. But
there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak
times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a
short
distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a subway
from
TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the gates? Penny pinching >>> no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern
end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design
of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded andThe cooked breakfasts at the two I sometimes attend ,Salisbury and Frome
loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.
are a lot nicer than you find at airports . DonrCOt know about St Pancras.
I don't doubt it.
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of >>>> eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a >rail-themed retail complex, and cafos are a way to monetise seating.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg8qv$2osv7$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:11 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere
that's not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could
sensibly reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever
they go to.
I think you need to "show your working" especially as that was the
original plan.
Do you have any evidence at all for such a plan? If not, werCOll have to assume that there was no such plan, especially as it would have been impossible to implement. The current arrangement offers more capacity that what you claim was the original plan. Certainly, the physical
infrastructure makes clear that there was no such plan.
It's only because E* has been less successful than
predicted that they have the luxury to fettle the trains at the StP
platforms rather than Stratford.
There are no facilities at Stratford. The trains would have had to go to Temple Mills, and there certainly isnrCOt the line capacity to do that, nor the space in the depot. It would have been even harder if Eurostar had been more successful. So yourCOre arguing against yourself.
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of >>>>> eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a
rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern >>> end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design
of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
In message <ms250sF9poqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:51:56 on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
City Thameslink is close to Blackfriars, but opened in 1990, long before Thameslink 2000 was opened. It's nowhere near Farringdon, especially by road.
I think it could usefully be re-opened but advertised as an
interchange for Victoria and Piccadilly Lines only.
Are there any such "interchange only" stations on the network? It's a complicated concept to communicate to the travelling public.
In message <10jh2u9$3632t$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:20:41 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern >>>> end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design >>> of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative
as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a Wetherspoons.
It's only because E* has been less successful than
predicted that they have the luxury to fettle the trains at the StP
platforms rather than Stratford.
There are no facilities at Stratford. The trains would have had to
go to Temple Mills, and there certainly isnrCOt the line capacity to
do that, nor the space in the depot. It would have been even harder
if Eurostar had been more successful. So yourCOre arguing against yourself.
I think we were talking about cleaning rather than fettling.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a
rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >longer walks.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative
as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a
Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just refurbished >the larger one.
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once, usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of folks like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or vice-versa.
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree it
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk >>>>>> at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line
platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now but >>>>> whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient
as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but why >>>>> they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through
train
beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter to
the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek through
the Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise supposedly a
shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers transferring to any
of the tube lines have pass through at present.
is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops to
increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to stay
in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to the
end of the queue again.
It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many wheely-bags of
Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 10:49, Roland Perry wrote:The cooked breakfasts at the two I sometimes attend ,Salisbury and Frome
In message <10jg1gg$2ni46$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:08 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
You only need a driver for the Stratford shuttle, and yes of course youQuick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at >>>>>> 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>
need a few** more trains, but they are cheaper than new stations.
Lodon-Paris-London is currently about six hours for a train set, so the
Stratford shuttle might add another 45mins; assuming things scale
linearly, another 10% train sets. But some clever timetabling could
reduce that.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already queued
up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a train
would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as the last
arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
This is the treatment of passengers which makes air and Eurostar such a
miserable experience.
Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded and
loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.
are a lot nicer than you find at airports . DonrCOt know about St Pancras.
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>>> opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>>> down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative
as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a
Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
In message <10jh1dd$3120i$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 18:54:37 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
I don't doubt it.Go to your local cattle market and watch the lorries being unloaded and >>>> loaded and compare the (minimal) difference.The cooked breakfasts at the two I sometimes attend ,Salisbury and Frome >>> are a lot nicer than you find at airports . DonrCOt know about St Pancras. >>
There are of course issues of scale. You can make a handful of nicer breakfasts at a low-rent cattle-market in Bumblefuck, than thousands at
a high-rent central London establishment.
The best breakfasts I used to have were at the classic greasy-spoon
buffet on Platform 8 at Kings Cross, but that was swept away when they refurbished the station 20yrs ago.
It was also interesting to note that even the cheapest such breakfast on
the menu cost more than HMRC's "subsistence allowance" for people on expenses working away from the office. Which I was, because the office
was in Peterborough and my trips were to visit people in Central London.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>>>> opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>>>> down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just >>>refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the
Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
In message <10jhaf3$39262$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:29:07 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>>>>> opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>>>>> down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just
refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now Wetherspoons,
at the far northeast of the area known in marketing-speak as "Farmers Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you have mentioned, are located?
On 05/01/2026 18:05, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ms250sF9poqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 15:51:56 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
City Thameslink is close to Blackfriars, but opened in 1990, long before
Thameslink 2000 was opened. It's nowhere near Farringdon, especially by
road.
I think it could usefully be re-opened but advertised as an
interchange for Victoria and Piccadilly Lines only.
Are there any such "interchange only" stations on the network? It's a
complicated concept to communicate to the travelling public.
Smallbrook Junction (Isle of Wight), and debatably Dovey Junction.
I recall Holborn being open for interchange only during building work.
It was also interesting to note that even the cheapest such
breakfast on the menu cost more than HMRC's "subsistence allowance"
for people on expenses working away from the office. Which I was,
because the office was in Peterborough and my trips were to visit
people in Central London.
HMRCs allowances hadn't changed from when I was gainfully employed in
the early 1990s till I retired as a freelance from broadcast work in
2014.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhaf3$39262$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:29:07 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on >>>> Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>>>>>> opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>>>>>> down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just
refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now Wetherspoons,
at the far northeast of the area known in marketing-speak as "Farmers
Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't
specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the
escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you
have mentioned, are located?
The larger refurbished one is: Unit 23 The Circle St Pancras Stn
The smaller one is: St Pancras Station Unit 46, The Arcade
(Addresses as per M&S website)
The small one is near the E* check in
The larger one, recently rebuilt, is in the circle, next to the Barrel
Vault pub and under the South Eastern platforms.
See https://stpancras-highspeed.com/st-pancras-international/station-map/
On 05/01/2026 18:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ms26l5F9poqU6@mid.individual.net>, at 16:19:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
It is instructive to watch the operations on platform 1 at St.Pancras,
used by the trains to/from Corby (also called Luton Airport Express).
Typically a fullish 8-coach train arrives and passengers get off, the
driver changes ends, the cleaning staff get on board and collect
litter etc., and then a new load of passengers gets on.-a This is all
done in under 20 minutes, with typically 10 or 15 mins for the new
load of passengers to board.-a They have to, as the timetabled dwell
time in platform 1 is usually under 25 minutes.-a Of course a Eurostar
train has more carriages, but with more cleaning staff surely it could
also be cleaned in 10 or 15 minutes?
I think that faster boarding of E* trains at StP would be frustrated by
the much longer walks to the designated carriage, plus having to
negotiate all the service vehicles parked haphazardly on the platforms.
The other feature of Eurostar trains which makes boarding slow is that
they have only one pair of doors per carriage and several steep steps up from the platform, especially awkward since nearly everyone is carrying luggage. Getting rid of the service vehicles parked on the platform
should be easy - redesigning all the trains would be much more expensive.
In message <ms2ei1F9porU2@mid.individual.net>, at 18:34:41 on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
On 05/01/2026 18:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >>>>>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and
exit. But there's plenty of other trains that serve that station, >>>>> so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a
short distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a >>>> subway from TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the
gates? Penny pinching no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the
southern end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either
money or the crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the
Fleet River prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having
been diverted round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of
the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The
re-design of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of
it as a medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms
set around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
What I always found irritating was the lack of anywhere to buy something ahead of a trip up the MML. Just one tiny inconvenience store, and that still some way from the platforms.
In message <10jhbga$39djl$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:46:50 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhaf3$39262$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:29:07 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on >>>>> Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just >>>>>> refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>>>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub. >>>>
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now Wetherspoons, >>> at the far northeast of the area known in marketing-speak as "Farmers
Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't
specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the
escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you >>> have mentioned, are located?
The larger refurbished one is: Unit 23 The Circle St Pancras Stn
The smaller one is: St Pancras Station Unit 46, The Arcade
(Addresses as per M&S website)
The small one is near the E* check in
The larger one, recently rebuilt, is in the circle, next to the Barrel
Vault pub and under the South Eastern platforms.
See https://stpancras-highspeed.com/st-pancras-international/station-map/
I wonder what used to be originally next to the site of the late M&S,
now Barrel Vault. Maybe some long lost brand like Sock Shop.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station.
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who >>> arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>> pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:06, Recliner wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Yes, several more, plus extra space in the depot for a couple of trains
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>
being quick serviced.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
Yes, and when you think about it, it probably takes about 5-10 minutes for >>> all passengers to get off an arriving train. It might then take them
another 10 minutes to all depart the platform, but the carriage doors can >>> be closed, and cleaning started, while passengers are still on the
platform. In Japan, clearly uniformed cleaning teams are waiting with their >>> cleaning materials by the doors of arriving trains, and board as soon as >>> the last passenger steps off.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26438556090/in/album-72157665887082104
They clean the train and rotate the seats very quickly, leaving a polite >>> notice hanging in the open doorways while they work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26713775270/in/album-72157665887082104/
Polite but rather cryptic. "Just Moment Please" and a chicken(?) waving
a flag at some seafood doesn't really shout "cleaning in progress". No
doubt the Japanese text is clearer, but I can't type it in to translate.
With Eurostar, boarding currently starts 20 minutes before departure, but >>> the proposal is to increase this to perhaps 30 minutes, thus reducing the >>> crowding in the lounge, and allowing a more relaxed, leisurely boarding
experience. So, out of a 60 minutes turnaround time, the train would need >>> to be in the platform for 40 minutes anyway. Taking a 400m train out, and >>> bringing in another 400m train, doesnrCOt happen instantly, so there would be
hardly anything to be gained by going to the depot for cleaning and
restocking, even if the space was available.
HS1 to Stratford already has up to 7 tph domestic services, and if itrCOs to
have up to 6 tph international services, thatrCOs already almost up to full >>> capacity. There certainly wouldnrCOt be room for another 6 ECS trains. So the
idea of returning trains to the depot for cleaning and re-supply is a
non-starter.
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere that's
not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could sensibly
reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever they go to.
The Temple Mills depot is accessed via a single track connection from Stratford International. I very much doubt that this could handle 12 tph (6 tph in both directions).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9Avq7nuniE6iiCF28?g_st=ic
Another bottleneck that would prevent international trains returning to the depot for servicing is the complex pointwork in the station throat that connects the nine SPI platforms to the two-track HS1 covered bridge over
the ECML. There is also a junction to the link to the NLL. That arrangement certainly couldnrCOt manage almost 20 tph in each direction; even 13 will be a stretch.
I must admit that I have no recollection of such a suggestion, and the facilities for cleaning and re-stocking trains at St Pancras make clear
that it was not the plan when the station was designed. So in the absence
of some evidence from Roland, I think we can assume that there never was
such a plan. Perhaps it was just an idea circulating on social media?
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:The TM depot certainly wonrCOt have the space. ThererCOs already a bun fight between E* and Virgin over the use of that facility.
In message <10jg8qv$2osv7$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:11 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere
that's not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could >>>> sensibly reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever >>>> they go to.
I think you need to "show your working" especially as that was the
original plan.
Do you have any evidence at all for such a plan? If not, werCOll have to
assume that there was no such plan, especially as it would have been
impossible to implement. The current arrangement offers more capacity that >> what you claim was the original plan. Certainly, the physical
infrastructure makes clear that there was no such plan.
It's only because E* has been less successful than
predicted that they have the luxury to fettle the trains at the StP
platforms rather than Stratford.
There are no facilities at Stratford. The trains would have had to go to
Temple Mills, and there certainly isnrCOt the line capacity to do that, nor >> the space in the depot. It would have been even harder if Eurostar had been >> more successful. So yourCOre arguing against yourself.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the >>>southern end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either
money or the crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the >>>Fleet River prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having
been diverted round the north end of the SPILL station box as part
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that
SPILL-Northern passengers would not pass all these retail
opportunities. The re-design of the St Pancras area makes much more
sense if you think of it as a medium-sized shopping mall with a few
sets of railway platforms set around the periphery. If you think of
it that way, you can see the importance of getting as many people as >>possible to pass as many shops as possible. The current design does
that pretty well.
What I always found irritating
was the lack of anywhere to buy something ahead of a trip up the MML.
Just one tiny inconvenience store, and that still some way from the >platforms.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you >>> have mentioned, are located?
The larger refurbished one is: Unit 23 The Circle St Pancras Stn
The smaller one is: St Pancras Station Unit 46, The Arcade
(Addresses as per M&S website)
The small one is near the E* check in
The larger one, recently rebuilt, is in the circle, next to the Barrel >>Vault pub and under the South Eastern platforms.
See https://stpancras-highspeed.com/st-pancras-international/station-map/
I wonder what used to be originally next to the site of the late M&S,
now Barrel Vault. Maybe some long lost brand like Sock Shop.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:The TM depot certainly wonrCOt have the space. ThererCOs already a bun fight >> between E* and Virgin over the use of that facility.
In message <10jg8qv$2osv7$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:55:11 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere
that's not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could >>>>> sensibly reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever >>>>> they go to.
I think you need to "show your working" especially as that was the
original plan.
Do you have any evidence at all for such a plan? If not, werCOll have to >>> assume that there was no such plan, especially as it would have been
impossible to implement. The current arrangement offers more capacity that >>> what you claim was the original plan. Certainly, the physical
infrastructure makes clear that there was no such plan.
It's only because E* has been less successful than
predicted that they have the luxury to fettle the trains at the StP
platforms rather than Stratford.
There are no facilities at Stratford. The trains would have had to go to >>> Temple Mills, and there certainly isnrCOt the line capacity to do that, nor >>> the space in the depot. It would have been even harder if Eurostar had been >>> more successful. So yourCOre arguing against yourself.
That's 'whole fleet on shed for overnight servicing and maintenance' space, >rather than 'trains coming on for 20 minutes at a time during the day'
space, surely?
In message <Ae9rjSZCNDXpFAG2@perry.uk>, at 21:55:14 on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
I wonder what used to be originally next to the site of the late M&S,For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you >>>> have mentioned, are located?
The larger refurbished one is: Unit 23 The Circle St Pancras Stn
The smaller one is: St Pancras Station Unit 46, The Arcade
(Addresses as per M&S website)
The small one is near the E* check in
The larger one, recently rebuilt, is in the circle, next to the Barrel
Vault pub and under the South Eastern platforms.
See https://stpancras-highspeed.com/st-pancras-international/station-map/ >>
now Barrel Vault. Maybe some long lost brand like Sock Shop.
I've got some photos I could look at, and thereby hangs a tale. When I
was stood on the concourse taking them the M&S bouncer approached me, remonstrated vigorously, saying and threatened to confiscate my camera, saying it was against the law to take photos. As it happens the whole
issue of taking and publishing such photos was at the time a hot topic
in various online forums.
As it happens a uninformed BTP officer was nearby, so I went and asked
him for an opinion. He laughed out loud and "said go ahead".
Anyway, the shop in question is the unit which is reportedly *now* M&S,
and is one unit further indoors than the Wetherspoons; the latter
occupying the unit of the original M&S (and its storerooms etc).
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 18:24, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <ms26l5F9poqU6@mid.individual.net>, at 16:19:49 on Mon, 5 Jan >>> 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
It is instructive to watch the operations on platform 1 at St.Pancras, >>>> used by the trains to/from Corby (also called Luton Airport Express). >>>> Typically a fullish 8-coach train arrives and passengers get off, the >>>> driver changes ends, the cleaning staff get on board and collect
litter etc., and then a new load of passengers gets on.-a This is all >>>> done in under 20 minutes, with typically 10 or 15 mins for the new
load of passengers to board.-a They have to, as the timetabled dwell
time in platform 1 is usually under 25 minutes.-a Of course a Eurostar >>>> train has more carriages, but with more cleaning staff surely it could >>>> also be cleaned in 10 or 15 minutes?
I think that faster boarding of E* trains at StP would be frustrated by >>> the much longer walks to the designated carriage, plus having to
negotiate all the service vehicles parked haphazardly on the platforms.
The other feature of Eurostar trains which makes boarding slow is that
they have only one pair of doors per carriage and several steep steps up
from the platform, especially awkward since nearly everyone is carrying
luggage. Getting rid of the service vehicles parked on the platform
should be easy - redesigning all the trains would be much more expensive.
Yes, itrCOs a pity it has low platforms serving high floor trains. I really wish theyrCOd built platforms closer to the UK standard height.
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had been operating
for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely the service pattern and >usage level was well established by then, or was there an expectation of >significantly increased ridership and demand from the shorter journey time?
ie: was there ever an expectation of running significantly more trains out
of StP than current run?
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if theAre there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax. >>
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >platforms would be feasible or not?
The small one is near the E* check inI wonder what used to be originally next to the site of the late M&S,
The larger one, recently rebuilt, is in the circle, next to the Barrel >>>> Vault pub and under the South Eastern platforms.
See https://stpancras-highspeed.com/st-pancras-international/station-map/ >>>
now Barrel Vault. Maybe some long lost brand like Sock Shop.
I've got some photos I could look at, and thereby hangs a tale. When I
was stood on the concourse taking them the M&S bouncer approached me,
remonstrated vigorously, saying and threatened to confiscate my camera,
saying it was against the law to take photos. As it happens the whole
issue of taking and publishing such photos was at the time a hot topic
in various online forums.
As it happens a uninformed BTP officer was nearby, so I went and asked
him for an opinion. He laughed out loud and "said go ahead".
Anyway, the shop in question is the unit which is reportedly *now* M&S,
and is one unit further indoors than the Wetherspoons; the latter
occupying the unit of the original M&S (and its storerooms etc).
The larger refurbished refurbished M&S is a full range food store, ie not >just grab and go food. ItrCOs very busy.
The small M&S by the Eurostar entrance is usually over full.
By the big M&S there is also quite a large
Boots. IrCOve used all of these shops and clearly others are. So grumpy old >men apart, these shops within the station meet a demand.
I like StP. Arriving on the MML, looking into the restored train shed
always raises my spirits.
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep ofClearly it would. Security sweeps are quick - thatrCOs done routinely on the >trains at Heathrow. The trouble with a lot of management thinking is werCOve >always done it this way, no other way of working is possible. The low cost >airlines showed the legacy airlines that another way was entirely possible.
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per
carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme?
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:06, Recliner wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Yes, several more, plus extra space in the depot for a couple of trains >>>> being quick serviced.
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>>
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
Yes, and when you think about it, it probably takes about 5-10 minutes for >>>> all passengers to get off an arriving train. It might then take them
another 10 minutes to all depart the platform, but the carriage doors can >>>> be closed, and cleaning started, while passengers are still on the
platform. In Japan, clearly uniformed cleaning teams are waiting with their
cleaning materials by the doors of arriving trains, and board as soon as >>>> the last passenger steps off.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26438556090/in/album-72157665887082104
They clean the train and rotate the seats very quickly, leaving a polite >>>> notice hanging in the open doorways while they work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26713775270/in/album-72157665887082104/
Polite but rather cryptic. "Just Moment Please" and a chicken(?) waving >>> a flag at some seafood doesn't really shout "cleaning in progress". No
doubt the Japanese text is clearer, but I can't type it in to translate. >>>
With Eurostar, boarding currently starts 20 minutes before departure, but >>>> the proposal is to increase this to perhaps 30 minutes, thus reducing the >>>> crowding in the lounge, and allowing a more relaxed, leisurely boarding >>>> experience. So, out of a 60 minutes turnaround time, the train would need >>>> to be in the platform for 40 minutes anyway. Taking a 400m train out, and >>>> bringing in another 400m train, doesnrCOt happen instantly, so there would be
hardly anything to be gained by going to the depot for cleaning and
restocking, even if the space was available.
HS1 to Stratford already has up to 7 tph domestic services, and if itrCOs to
have up to 6 tph international services, thatrCOs already almost up to full
capacity. There certainly wouldnrCOt be room for another 6 ECS trains. So the
idea of returning trains to the depot for cleaning and re-supply is a
non-starter.
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere that's >>> not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could sensibly
reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever they go to. >>>
The Temple Mills depot is accessed via a single track connection from
Stratford International. I very much doubt that this could handle 12 tph (6 >> tph in both directions).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9Avq7nuniE6iiCF28?g_st=ic
Another bottleneck that would prevent international trains returning to the >> depot for servicing is the complex pointwork in the station throat that
connects the nine SPI platforms to the two-track HS1 covered bridge over
the ECML. There is also a junction to the link to the NLL. That arrangement >> certainly couldnrCOt manage almost 20 tph in each direction; even 13 will be >> a stretch.
I must admit that I have no recollection of such a suggestion, and the
facilities for cleaning and re-stocking trains at St Pancras make clear
that it was not the plan when the station was designed. So in the absence
of some evidence from Roland, I think we can assume that there never was
such a plan. Perhaps it was just an idea circulating on social media?
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had been operating
for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely the service pattern and usage level was well established by then, or was there an expectation of significantly increased ridership and demand from the shorter journey time?
ie: was there ever an expectation of running significantly more trains out
of StP than current run?
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had beenMy railhead during the move was Woking. Not only did the move extend
operating for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely the
service pattern and usage level was well established by then, or was >>there an expectation of significantly increased ridership and demand
from the shorter journey time? ie: was there ever an expectation of >>running significantly more trains out of StP than current run?
my overall journey time but I was unable to connect with the first two >outbound service of the day.
This was about the time I re-started using the overnight Harwich-Hoek
van Hollland ferries.
In message <10jil22$3kvdh$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:36:01 on Tue, 6 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had been >>operating for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely theMy railhead during the move was Woking. Not only did the move extend
service pattern and usage level was well established by then, or was >>there an expectation of significantly increased ridership and demand >>from the shorter journey time? ie: was there ever an expectation of >>running significantly more trains out of StP than current run?
my overall journey time but I was unable to connect with the first two >outbound service of the day.
I was living in Surbiton, and found it surprising that the first SWR
train of the day didn't connect with the first E* (at Waterloo).
So I used to drive to Ashford (A3, M25, M20) [60 miles]. Soon after, I relocated to Cambridge, and continued to drive to Ashford (M11, M25,
M20) [101 miles] although to catch the first train of the day I'd
normally stay at a motel on the edge of Ashford overnight.
This was about the time I re-started using the overnight Harwich-Hoek
van Hollland ferries.
I used those when I lived in Mid-Essex, as well as to Zebrugge, but
haven't patronised one now for about 40yrs. Of course, neither of those ferries is much use if you are trying to get to Brussels/Paris for a
10am meeting.
On 05/01/2026 15:54, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree it
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk >>>>>>> at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria line >>>>>> platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new now >>>>>> but
whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient >>>>>> as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but
why they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk through >>>>>> train
beats me.
convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter
to the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek
through the Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise
supposedly a shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers
transferring to any of the tube lines have pass through at present.
is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops
to increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to
stay in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to
the end of the queue again.
folks like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or
vice-versa. It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many
wheely-bags of Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
If you keep tripping over wheely-bags perhaps you should go to specsavers.
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 18:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >>>>>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and
exit. But
there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak
times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a
short
distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a subway
from
TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the gates? Penny pinching >>>> no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern >>> end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design
of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
In message <10jhaf3$39262$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:29:07 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh4cp$36jjp$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:45:29 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the
retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would >>>>>> close
down.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just
refurbished
the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now Wetherspoons,
at the far northeast of the area known in marketing-speak as "Farmers Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S you have mentioned, are located?
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a
rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much longer walks.
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retailYes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a hurry.-a But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus stops.-a-a A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well.
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
On 05/01/2026 21:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 05/01/2026 15:54, Clive Page wrote:Sorry you seem to have had a sense-of-humour failure.-a I hope it's temporary.-a Or should I use :-) after every light-hearted remark for
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more >>>>>> convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter >>>>>> to the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk >>>>>>>> at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria
line platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new
now but
whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient >>>>>>> as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but >>>>>>> why they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk
through train
beats me.
through the Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise
supposedly a shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers
transferring to any of the tube lines have pass through at present. >>>>>>
it is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops
to increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to
stay in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to
the end of the queue again.
folks like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or
vice-versa. It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many
wheely-bags of Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
If you keep tripping over wheely-bags perhaps you should go to
specsavers.
your benefit?
On 05/01/2026 19:30, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Well I'm complaining because the connection from SPILL/MML platforms to
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a >>>>>>> number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station.-a It's now a >>>> rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >> are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >> and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have
much
longer walks.
all of the underground lines is also a waiting and meeting & greeting
area for Eurostar passengers.-a That makes it a very congested area - it must be annoying for those using Eurostar (which includes me now and
again) to have so few seats and so many rail passengers pushing past
their waiting zone.-a-a The walk isn't all that long, but 7 or 8 minutes
is annoying when we remember that much shorter walks were possible
before St.Pancras was modernised (e.g. using the now defunct King's
Cross Thameslink) and since we know that with a little more money spent
the links between the various stations could have been made a good deal shorter and easier to use.
If you have luggage so you want to use lifts rather than stairs or escalators (or if you are a wheelchair user), to get from SPILL to say
the Piccadilly line, you need to take quite a long way around and use a minimum of 5 different lifts, which takes around 20 minutes.-a It's all right for me as I've done it before but the route is not at all well- signposted and several of the lifts are in rather obscure locations.
I maintain that St.Pancras is a very poorly-designed complex, only understandable if you think of it as a shopping centre with some useful transport links around the periphery.
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:35:10 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:23:40 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote:
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 16:17:23 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:34:31 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
It's where it is, because that was the only available footprint to >build
the new station. I agree that the walk from the Victoria Line is very >>>>>>> long, but the answer to that is to modify your journey so you don't >need
to make that particular interchange. For example, change from the >>>>>>> Victoria to Thameslink at Finsbury Park instead.
Its a hike up the spiral staircase then some more stairs beyond that. >>>>>> Hardly convenient.
So take the lift.
What lift?
Obviously, the ones from the Finsbury Park Tube and rail platforms! Which >>> ones did you think I meant?
I mean I've never seen a lift on the northbound vic/pic platforms. Must be >> well hidden.
Yes, cunningly concealed by the Lift signs!
In message <10jgl0c$302k3$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 15:22:52 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was never >>>>crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
In the years before it was closed, and when Thameslink 2000 was being >planned. So mid 1990's. At the time I used to travel quite frequently to
the OFTEL office, which was almost next door to City Thameslink. Then
catch the train to Kings Cross Thameslink and use the tube-train tunnels
to get to the Suburban platforms [9-11] or sometimes platform 8, for a
train back to Cambs.
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design
of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
In message <10jhuqm$3f5af$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:38 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per
carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very
long walk to/from the country end of the train.
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if theAre there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax. >>>
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 JanAre there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>> pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax. >>
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the platforms would be feasible or not?
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP
that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused
bit of main line.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 17:49:20 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jgl0c$302k3$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 15:22:52
on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was >>>>>never crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
In the years before it was closed, and when Thameslink 2000 was being >>planned. So mid 1990's. At the time I used to travel quite frequently
to the OFTEL office, which was almost next door to City Thameslink.
Then catch the train to Kings Cross Thameslink and use the tube-train >>tunnels to get to the Suburban platforms [9-11] or sometimes platform
8, for a train back to Cambs.
So IOW it got LESS crowded before they closed it.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 19:20:41 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> gabbled:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design >>> of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>down.
Probably doesn't include TL commuters heading for the tube who no doubt
have already been delayed by late trains anyway and just want to get to work.
Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just >>>>>refurbished the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub.
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now
Wetherspoons, at the far northeast of the area known in
marketing-speak as "Farmers Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't >>specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the >>escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S
you have mentioned, are located?
I don't remember either, because as Roland has said, they change hands >rather frequently. But there is still at least one M&S at St.Pancras,
and last time I looked there were *three* branches of W.H.Smith.
On 05/01/2026 19:30, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Well I'm complaining because the connection from SPILL/MML platforms to
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 onIrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground,
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a >>>>>>>number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a >>>> rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
shops etc
are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >> and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >> longer walks.
all of the underground lines is also a waiting and meeting & greeting
area for Eurostar passengers. That makes it a very congested area - it
must be annoying for those using Eurostar (which includes me now and
again) to have so few seats and so many rail passengers pushing past
their waiting zone. The walk isn't all that long, but 7 or 8 minutes
is annoying when we remember that much shorter walks were possible
before St.Pancras was modernised (e.g. using the now defunct King's
Cross Thameslink)
and since we know that with a little more money spent the links between
the various stations could have been made a good deal shorter and
easier to use.
If you have luggage so you want to use lifts rather than stairs or >escalators (or if you are a wheelchair user), to get from SPILL to say
the Piccadilly line, you need to take quite a long way around and use a >minimum of 5 different lifts,
which takes around 20 minutes. It's all right for me as I've done it
before but the route is not at all well-signposted and several of the
lifts are in rather obscure locations.
I maintain that St.Pancras is a very poorly-designed complex, only >understandable if you think of it as a shopping centre with some useful >transport links around the periphery.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqm$3f5af$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:38 on Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of >> the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per
carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very
long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train.
The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
In message <ms46ptFlo0rU2@mid.individual.net>, at 10:34:38 on Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
So are you claiming there were three M&S branches in StP?Actually there's quite a turnover of tenants. So it's not as lucrative >>>>>>> as you might expect. One significant example is the M&S which is now a >>>>>>> Wetherspoons.
What at StP? ThererCOs still two branches there and theyrCOve just >>>>>> refurbished the larger one.
The largest one was at the north-east corner, near the escalators to the >>>>> Kent lines. It was pretty deserted most of the time and is now a pub. >>>>
No, my recollection is entirely the large one which is now
Wetherspoons, at the far northeast of the area known in
marketing-speak as "Farmers Market".
There might have been another one nearer the E* checkin, but I don't
specifically remember that.
Across the street in the Kings Cross dome, there's an M&S near the
escalators down to the Northern Ticket Hall.
For the avoidance of doubt, could you describe where the current M&S
you have mentioned, are located?
I don't remember either, because as Roland has said, they change hands
rather frequently. But there is still at least one M&S at St.Pancras,
and last time I looked there were *three* branches of W.H.Smith.
Those will be operated by SSP, and I expect they have an agreement with
the landlords that if there's an otherwise unwanted unit, they'll occupy
it for a token rental, rather than it being boarded up - which makes the place look unloved.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqm$3f5af$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:38 on >>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would >>>> help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of >>>> the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen >>>> round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >>>> carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven >>>> people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the >>> platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very
long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so >> they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train.
The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
That would change if they repurpose the arrivals area as a separate
departure gate.
Those passengers would be arriving on the platform much
closer to the rear of the train.
I suppose you would do something like splitting the pax into 'platform 5a' and '5b' and the 5a people go through zone A (the current departures area) and
the 5b people go to zone B (the former arrivals area). Then you tell them which zone to go to based on their allocated coach. Spreads the load across the length of the train.
Might also improve passenger flow as the 'zone A' people will all be heading towards the front of the train, rather than some turning towards the rear when they reach the platform.
I will add that the underground connection times between main line
stations has obviously been reviewed as a result of the Elizabeth Line >opening.
Paddington to St Pancras/Kings Cross seems to be particularly tight now
and last time I travelled on a service for Cambridge arrived whist my >connection was already boarding. We all know the minimal time allowed
for boarding at Kings Cross these days.
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of >> >> the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >> >> carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the >> > platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very
long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so >> they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train.
The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
That would change if they repurpose the arrivals area as a separate
departure gate. Those passengers would be arriving on the platform much >closer to the rear of the train.
I suppose you would do something like splitting the pax into 'platform 5a' >and '5b' and the 5a people go through zone A (the current departures area) and >the 5b people go to zone B (the former arrivals area). Then you tell them >which zone to go to based on their allocated coach. Spreads the load across >the length of the train.
Might also improve passenger flow as the 'zone A' people will all be heading >towards the front of the train, rather than some turning towards the rear >when they reach the platform.
In message <4Rh*pb0vA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:34:04 on Tue,
6 Jan 2026, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of >>>>> the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen >>>>> round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >>>>> carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven >>>>> people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the >>>> platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very
long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so >>> they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train. >>> The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
Terrible analysis, not least because you need to factor in the length of
the travelator up from the departure lounge.
That would change if they repurpose the arrivals area as a separate
departure gate. Those passengers would be arriving on the platform much
closer to the rear of the train.
I suppose you would do something like splitting the pax into 'platform 5a' >> and '5b' and the 5a people go through zone A (the current departures area) and
the 5b people go to zone B (the former arrivals area). Then you tell them >> which zone to go to based on their allocated coach. Spreads the load across >> the length of the train.
Waterloo used to have two exits to the platforms, but like other E* stations, nothing like as far as halfway along the train.
Might also improve passenger flow as the 'zone A' people will all be heading >> towards the front of the train, rather than some turning towards the rear
when they reach the platform.
Actually you probably want exits onto the platform at the rear, and 2/3
of the way along, with half the latter doing a u-turn.
In message <10jh3gi$369in$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:30:26 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a >>>> rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >>are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >>and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >>longer walks.
They do, but most railway stations the entrance is no more than a few
tens of feet from the platform.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >>are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >>and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >>longer walks.
They do, but most railway stations the entrance is no more than a few
tens of feet from the platform.
On 05/01/2026 19:30, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Well I'm complaining because the connection from SPILL/MML platforms to
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a >>>> rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating.
But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >> are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >> and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >> longer walks.
all of the underground lines is also a waiting and meeting & greeting
area for Eurostar passengers. That makes it a very congested area - it
must be annoying for those using Eurostar (which includes me now and
again) to have so few seats and so many rail passengers pushing past
their waiting zone. The walk isn't all that long, but 7 or 8 minutes
is annoying when we remember that much shorter walks were possible
before St.Pancras was modernised (e.g. using the now defunct King's
Cross Thameslink) and since we know that with a little more money spent
the links between the various stations could have been made a good deal shorter and easier to use.
If you have luggage so you want to use lifts rather than stairs or escalators (or if you are a wheelchair user), to get from SPILL to say
the Piccadilly line, you need to take quite a long way around and use a minimum of 5 different lifts, which takes around 20 minutes. It's all
right for me as I've done it before but the route is not at all well-signposted and several of the lifts are in rather obscure locations.
I maintain that St.Pancras is a very poorly-designed complex, only understandable if you think of it as a shopping centre with some useful transport links around the periphery.
On 06/01/2026 10:32, Clive Page wrote:
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retailYes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a
hurry.-a But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those
waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those
hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus
stops.-a-a A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well.
They do if you're a retailer who wants passing trade. Modern major
stations are designed to meet commercial desires, not passengers' needs.
In message <10jhakd$388tv$4@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 21:31:57 on
Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
-aIt was also interesting to note that even the cheapest such
breakfast on-a the menu cost more than HMRC's "subsistence allowance"
for people on-a expenses working away from the office. Which I was,
because the office-a was in Peterborough and my trips were to visit
people in Central London.
HMRCs allowances hadn't changed from when I was gainfully employed in
the early 1990s till I retired as a freelance from broadcast work in
2014.
I think car allowances have been stuck at 45p/mile for decades.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:06, Recliner wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Yes, several more, plus extra space in the depot for a couple of trains >>>> being quick serviced.
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>>
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
Yes, and when you think about it, it probably takes about 5-10 minutes for >>>> all passengers to get off an arriving train. It might then take them
another 10 minutes to all depart the platform, but the carriage doors can >>>> be closed, and cleaning started, while passengers are still on the
platform. In Japan, clearly uniformed cleaning teams are waiting with their
cleaning materials by the doors of arriving trains, and board as soon as >>>> the last passenger steps off.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26438556090/in/album-72157665887082104
They clean the train and rotate the seats very quickly, leaving a polite >>>> notice hanging in the open doorways while they work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26713775270/in/album-72157665887082104/
Polite but rather cryptic. "Just Moment Please" and a chicken(?) waving >>> a flag at some seafood doesn't really shout "cleaning in progress". No
doubt the Japanese text is clearer, but I can't type it in to translate. >>>
With Eurostar, boarding currently starts 20 minutes before departure, but >>>> the proposal is to increase this to perhaps 30 minutes, thus reducing the >>>> crowding in the lounge, and allowing a more relaxed, leisurely boarding >>>> experience. So, out of a 60 minutes turnaround time, the train would need >>>> to be in the platform for 40 minutes anyway. Taking a 400m train out, and >>>> bringing in another 400m train, doesnrCOt happen instantly, so there would be
hardly anything to be gained by going to the depot for cleaning and
restocking, even if the space was available.
HS1 to Stratford already has up to 7 tph domestic services, and if itrCOs to
have up to 6 tph international services, thatrCOs already almost up to full
capacity. There certainly wouldnrCOt be room for another 6 ECS trains. So the
idea of returning trains to the depot for cleaning and re-supply is a
non-starter.
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere that's >>> not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could sensibly
reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever they go to. >>>
The Temple Mills depot is accessed via a single track connection from
Stratford International. I very much doubt that this could handle 12 tph (6 >> tph in both directions).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9Avq7nuniE6iiCF28?g_st=ic
Another bottleneck that would prevent international trains returning to the >> depot for servicing is the complex pointwork in the station throat that
connects the nine SPI platforms to the two-track HS1 covered bridge over
the ECML. There is also a junction to the link to the NLL. That arrangement >> certainly couldnrCOt manage almost 20 tph in each direction; even 13 will be >> a stretch.
I must admit that I have no recollection of such a suggestion, and the
facilities for cleaning and re-stocking trains at St Pancras make clear
that it was not the plan when the station was designed. So in the absence
of some evidence from Roland, I think we can assume that there never was
such a plan. Perhaps it was just an idea circulating on social media?
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had been operating
for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely the service pattern and usage level was well established by then, or was there an expectation of significantly increased ridership and demand from the shorter journey time?
ie: was there ever an expectation of running significantly more trains out
of StP than current run?
On 05/01/2026 21:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 05/01/2026 15:54, Clive Page wrote:Sorry you seem to have had a sense-of-humour failure.-a I hope it's temporary.-a Or should I use :-) after every light-hearted remark for
On 04/01/2026 13:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
On 04/01/2026 11:34, Coffee wrote:I think you are missing the point - the extra footfall is those of
On 04/01/2026 11:20, Clive Page wrote:
On 04/01/2026 09:00, boltar@caprica.universe wrote:I cannot remember how I ended undertaking that change but I agree
On Sat, 03 Jan 2026 22:19:31 GMTI entirely agree.-a The old King's Cross Thameslink was much more >>>>>> convenient for changing to the Victoria Line and somewhat shorter >>>>>> to the Piccadilly line.-a That would also save the awful trek
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
Similarly, Thameslink is way off to the west.
ItrCOs to the north. Yes, itrCOs a bit of a hike, but better to walk >>>>>>>> at first
floor level, then have lifts directly down. The aim is to segregate >>>>>>>> arriving from departing passengers as far as possible.
The old thameslink station was a 2 min walk from the victoria
line platforms
which was very convenient for interchange. The new (not so new
now but
whatever) one seems to have been positioned to be as inconvenient >>>>>>> as possible
for interchange to almost everyone. Apparently the old one was
closed due to
not being able to lengthen the platforms for 10 car trains, but >>>>>>> why they
couldn't simply have used selective door opening on a walk
through train
beats me.
through the Eurostar waiting/meeting/greeting area (otherwise
supposedly a shopping area) which all Thameslink passengers
transferring to any of the tube lines have pass through at present. >>>>>>
it is dreadful.
It was made worse by the dreadful queues for Eurostar.
Being cynical this is to increase the footfall passing these shops
to increase the rental income.
A theory rather spoiled bu the fact that people in queues tend to
stay in them, not disappear into random shops and have to go back to
the end of the queue again.
folks like me who frequently trek from SPILL to the tube lines or
vice-versa. It takes about 7 or 8 minutes, depending on how many
wheely-bags of Eurostar passengers you trip over en route.
If you keep tripping over wheely-bags perhaps you should go to
specsavers.
your benefit?
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 19:30, Tweed wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Well I'm complaining because the connection from SPILL/MML platforms to
In message <10jh25i$35j0g$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 19:07:30 on >>>> Mon, 5 Jan 2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
There's several cafes and two pubs in St Pancras itself, plus a number of
eateries and another pub in Kings Cross.
...
Yes, some people are mistaking this for a railway station. It's now a >>>>> rail-themed retail complex, and caf|-s are a way to monetise seating. >>>>But nothing for MML passengers, and not particularly close for either
SPILL or the Kent lines.
IrCOm amazed at all the complaints about how far the underground, shops etc >>> are. I find it all rather trivial and IrCOm not in the first flush of youth >>> and neither am I a habitual long distance rambler. Many airports have much >>> longer walks.
all of the underground lines is also a waiting and meeting & greeting
area for Eurostar passengers. That makes it a very congested area - it
must be annoying for those using Eurostar (which includes me now and
again) to have so few seats and so many rail passengers pushing past
their waiting zone. The walk isn't all that long, but 7 or 8 minutes
is annoying when we remember that much shorter walks were possible
before St.Pancras was modernised (e.g. using the now defunct King's
Cross Thameslink) and since we know that with a little more money spent
the links between the various stations could have been made a good deal
shorter and easier to use.
If you have luggage so you want to use lifts rather than stairs or
escalators (or if you are a wheelchair user), to get from SPILL to say
the Piccadilly line, you need to take quite a long way around and use a
minimum of 5 different lifts, which takes around 20 minutes. It's all
right for me as I've done it before but the route is not at all
well-signposted and several of the lifts are in rather obscure locations.
I maintain that St.Pancras is a very poorly-designed complex, only
understandable if you think of it as a shopping centre with some useful
transport links around the periphery.
StPrCOs layout is constrained by what went before the rebuild, and the need to include E*. Whatever they did with the design would upset someone. If
you donrCOt like the interchange coming from the north (other than MML expresses) carry on with Thameslink and change elsewhere. Farringdon will
get you to Heathrow with your luggage.
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 11:54:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already
queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>> train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as
the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax,
whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal
building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's
re-provisioning the catering.
Yes, indeed, but those activities can happen while passengers are either still departing the platform, or arriving for
the next service.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them
beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight.
I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once,
usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
HSTs used to get the toilet water supply re-filled at every visit to >Paddington, but every other train type I can think of right now* runs all
day without being tanked.
* braces for list of exceptions
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 11:54:35 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jg68t$2osv7$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:11:25 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
They achieve that turnaround by having the departing pax already
queued up either on the apron, or very close by. The equivalent for a >>>> train would be to have those pax lining on the platform as soon as >>>> the last arriving passenger had been herded off the platform.
But of course there's only the one exit for a whole trainful of pax, >>>> whereas at the airport there's one exit (ie into the terminal
building) for the far fewer number of pax they carry.
Departing stragglers don't delay the train because it's being cleaned.
"Cleaning" being not just litter picking but toilets, plus there's
re-provisioning the catering.
Yes, indeed, but those activities can happen while passengers are either still departing the platform, or arriving for
the next service.
Presumably airlines turn planes around so quickly by not cleaning them >>> beyond what litter any spare air crew can pick up as passengers alight. >>I wonder if train passengers leave more litter behind?
I suspect so. On low cost flights, the crew come round at least once, usually twice, collecting little in a sack, so not
much is left by the seats. That doesn't usually happen on trains.
Varies by TOC and route, IMX. AFAIK gWr don't really do that at all, but XC have cleaners who travel between certain stops collecting litter from passengers, and emptying bins; and on a recent journey on TfW LHCS service, the catering crew came through a few times with a bin bag, same on Avanti
and EMR.
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
HSTs used to get the toilet water supply re-filled at every visit to Paddington, but every other train type I can think of right now* runs all
day without being tanked.
* braces for list of exceptions
In message <10jk1ba$6gu1$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:11:54 on Tue, 6 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Low-cost intra-Europe planes also don't have to flush their toilets at every
stop.
Do trains?
Legacy airlines tend to, because it's essential for long-haul and
trickles down to shorter routings. It all adds to the time their
planes take to turn round, compared to low-costs.
HSTs used to get the toilet water supply re-filled at every visit to
Paddington, but every other train type I can think of right now* runs all
day without being tanked.
* braces for list of exceptions
ECML trains used to at Kings Cross, but I haven't looked to see if the Azumas carry a whole day's water. All the Azumas spend the night at
Bounds Green, but IC225 still sometimes stay at the platform [eg 07:39
for Bradford today
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqm$3f5af$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:38 on >>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would >>>> help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen >>>> round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >>>> carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven >>>> people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the >>> platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very >>> long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so >> they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train. >> The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
That would change if they repurpose the arrivals area as a separate departure gate.
I donrCOt think anyone is proposing that. The idea is to use some or all of the current arrivals area for a much larger security/passport zone, and
also make the current departure lounge a bit larger.
ECML trains used to at Kings Cross, but I haven't looked to see if the Azumas carry a whole day's water. All the Azumas spend the night at
Bounds Green, but IC225 still sometimes stay at the platform [eg 07:39
for Bradford today and presumably take on water, similarly some E*s at
St Pancras [eg 08:16 for Amsterdam today]
I've definitely seen some trains re-watering at a platform in the not
too distant past. Can't remember exactly where, but it could be the
longer distance Scotrail DMUs. Maybe the Caledonian Sleeper does at
Euston.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqm$3f5af$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:38 on >> >>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >> >>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would >> >>>> help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen >> >>>> round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per >> >>>> carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven >> >>>> people per train.
Do the Japanese also have entrances for passengers all the way along the
platform? A major contributor to the time it takes at StP is the very >> >>> long walk to/from the country end of the train.
But most passengers enter the platforms nearly halfway along the train, so
they only have to walk, at most, just over half the length of the train. >> >> The rCytypicalrCO walk is about 100m, which is less than when catching domestic
long distance trains at Euston or Paddington.
That would change if they repurpose the arrivals area as a separate
departure gate.
I donrCOt think anyone is proposing that. The idea is to use some or all of >> the current arrivals area for a much larger security/passport zone, and
also make the current departure lounge a bit larger.
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward >to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all
you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in >the other parts of the station?
On 06/01/2026 03:31, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 11:06, Recliner wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Yes, several more, plus extra space in the depot for a couple of trains >>>>> being quick serviced.
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter
pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments
of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing >>>>>>> pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>>>
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is >>>>>> effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
Yes, and when you think about it, it probably takes about 5-10 minutes for
all passengers to get off an arriving train. It might then take them >>>>> another 10 minutes to all depart the platform, but the carriage doors can >>>>> be closed, and cleaning started, while passengers are still on the
platform. In Japan, clearly uniformed cleaning teams are waiting with their
cleaning materials by the doors of arriving trains, and board as soon as >>>>> the last passenger steps off.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26438556090/in/album-72157665887082104
They clean the train and rotate the seats very quickly, leaving a polite >>>>> notice hanging in the open doorways while they work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/26713775270/in/album-72157665887082104/
Polite but rather cryptic. "Just Moment Please" and a chicken(?) waving >>>> a flag at some seafood doesn't really shout "cleaning in progress". No >>>> doubt the Japanese text is clearer, but I can't type it in to translate. >>>>
With Eurostar, boarding currently starts 20 minutes before departure, but >>>>> the proposal is to increase this to perhaps 30 minutes, thus reducing the >>>>> crowding in the lounge, and allowing a more relaxed, leisurely boarding >>>>> experience. So, out of a 60 minutes turnaround time, the train would need >>>>> to be in the platform for 40 minutes anyway. Taking a 400m train out, and >>>>> bringing in another 400m train, doesnrCOt happen instantly, so there would be
hardly anything to be gained by going to the depot for cleaning and
restocking, even if the space was available.
HS1 to Stratford already has up to 7 tph domestic services, and if itrCOs to
have up to 6 tph international services, thatrCOs already almost up to full
capacity. There certainly wouldnrCOt be room for another 6 ECS trains. So the
idea of returning trains to the depot for cleaning and re-supply is a >>>>> non-starter.
Stratford is a bit of a straw man as the trains could go anywhere that's >>>> not St Pancras, but Stratford may be the only place they could sensibly >>>> reverse, and the whole idea is clearly not feasible wherever they go to. >>>>
The Temple Mills depot is accessed via a single track connection from
Stratford International. I very much doubt that this could handle 12 tph (6 >>> tph in both directions).
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9Avq7nuniE6iiCF28?g_st=ic
Another bottleneck that would prevent international trains returning to the >>> depot for servicing is the complex pointwork in the station throat that
connects the nine SPI platforms to the two-track HS1 covered bridge over >>> the ECML. There is also a junction to the link to the NLL. That arrangement >>> certainly couldnrCOt manage almost 20 tph in each direction; even 13 will be
a stretch.
I must admit that I have no recollection of such a suggestion, and the
facilities for cleaning and re-stocking trains at St Pancras make clear
that it was not the plan when the station was designed. So in the absence >>> of some evidence from Roland, I think we can assume that there never was >>> such a plan. Perhaps it was just an idea circulating on social media?
By the time St Pancras International opened, Eurostar had been operating
for 13 years from Waterloo International; surely the service pattern and
usage level was well established by then, or was there an expectation of
significantly increased ridership and demand from the shorter journey time? >>
ie: was there ever an expectation of running significantly more trains out >> of StP than current run?
I believe so, in fact I think that is what initially happened.
The idea is to use some or all of the current arrivals area for a
much larger security/passport zone, and also make the current
departure lounge a bit larger.
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward >to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all
you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside?
In message <6Rh*Op5vA@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:20:50 on Wed,
7 Jan 2026, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
The idea is to use some or all of the current arrivals area for a
much larger security/passport zone, and also make the current
departure lounge a bit larger.
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >>forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward >>to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all >>you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new >>cross-passage and door on the outside?
Moving things like the doorway to Pancras Road would require listed
building permission.
On 07 Jan 2026 12:20:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward >to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all >you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new >cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in >the other parts of the station?
It looks like there's another large entrance further to the south, with locked wooden gates:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nopZrWswxDe6W5bn9
That could probably be turned into the new external Eurostar entrance, without breaking any listed building consents.
I also notice that there's a retail unit (iSmash) just to the north of the current Eurostar entrance. Surely Eurostar
could take over that space to increase its departures area?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7wJsdrLGRxsBWtpy7
I also notice that there are several ordinary doorways in the station windows along that road. That suggests that it's
allowed to turn windows in that wall into doorways. So, Eurostar might have other options to move its entrance south.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8iyAc1QamL5oyqy7
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07 Jan 2026 12:20:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >>> forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward
to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all >>> you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in >>> the other parts of the station?
It looks like there's another large entrance further to the south, with
locked wooden gates:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nopZrWswxDe6W5bn9
I suppose that must be a fire exit from the 'arrivals hall'.
That could probably be turned into the new external Eurostar entrance,
without breaking any listed building consents.
There's a glass canopy above the current entrace, so presumably listed building consent would be needed to move that above the new entrance. However I doubt that's going to be much of a hurdle. Reconfiguring the inside may well need listed consent anyway (it's Grade I listed).
I also notice that there's a retail unit (iSmash) just to the north of
the current Eurostar entrance. Surely Eurostar
could take over that space to increase its departures area?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7wJsdrLGRxsBWtpy7
I think that unit is occupying depth between the inner and outer doors (it's not very deep - phone repair doesn't need a big footprint) so the space
would be 'around the back' of the business class security zone in the
current setup. Probably not useful in the current layout, but might be usable if it became part of the lounge.
I also notice that there are several ordinary doorways in the station
windows along that road. That suggests that it's
allowed to turn windows in that wall into doorways. So, Eurostar might
have other options to move its entrance south.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8iyAc1QamL5oyqy7
That might be feasible. It's so well-done that I can't tell if the existing doorways, which have a third arch of brick and stone above them unlike the windowed arches, are modern or part of the original fabric. I suspect they're modern, in which case making some more further along might be acceptable.
In message <10jirjn$2ujsf$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:51 on Tue, 6 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 17:49:20 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jgl0c$302k3$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 15:22:52
on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was >>>>>>never crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
In the years before it was closed, and when Thameslink 2000 was being >>>planned. So mid 1990's. At the time I used to travel quite frequently
to the OFTEL office, which was almost next door to City Thameslink.
Then catch the train to Kings Cross Thameslink and use the tube-train >>>tunnels to get to the Suburban platforms [9-11] or sometimes platform
8, for a train back to Cambs.
So IOW it got LESS crowded before they closed it.
I have no idea how you came to that perverse conclusion.
On Tue, 6 Jan 2026 12:14:00 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jirjn$2ujsf$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:51 on Tue, 6 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 17:49:20 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jgl0c$302k3$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 15:22:52 >>>>on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was >>>>>>>never crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
In the years before it was closed, and when Thameslink 2000 was
being planned. So mid 1990's. At the time I used to travel quite >>>>frequently to the OFTEL office, which was almost next door to City >>>>Thameslink. Then catch the train to Kings Cross Thameslink and use
the tube-train tunnels to get to the Suburban platforms [9-11] or >>>>sometimes platform 8, for a train back to Cambs.
So IOW it got LESS crowded before they closed it.
I have no idea how you came to that perverse conclusion.
Which part of "I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s" >confused you? Unless you think the mid 90s was after that.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07 Jan 2026 12:20:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue >>>> forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward
to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all >>>> you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in >>>> the other parts of the station?
It looks like there's another large entrance further to the south, with
locked wooden gates:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nopZrWswxDe6W5bn9
I suppose that must be a fire exit from the 'arrivals hall'.
That could probably be turned into the new external Eurostar entrance,
without breaking any listed building consents.
There's a glass canopy above the current entrace, so presumably listed
building consent would be needed to move that above the new entrance.
However I doubt that's going to be much of a hurdle. Reconfiguring the
inside may well need listed consent anyway (it's Grade I listed).
Yes, I think all changes need consent, but it should be less of an issue if itrCOs simply the modern additions being moved or reconfigured.
I also notice that there's a retail unit (iSmash) just to the north of
the current Eurostar entrance. Surely Eurostar
could take over that space to increase its departures area?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7wJsdrLGRxsBWtpy7
I think that unit is occupying depth between the inner and outer doors (it's >> not very deep - phone repair doesn't need a big footprint) so the space
would be 'around the back' of the business class security zone in the
current setup. Probably not useful in the current layout, but might be
usable if it became part of the lounge.
I also notice that there are several ordinary doorways in the station
windows along that road. That suggests that it's
allowed to turn windows in that wall into doorways. So, Eurostar might
have other options to move its entrance south.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8iyAc1QamL5oyqy7
That might be feasible. It's so well-done that I can't tell if the existing >> doorways, which have a third arch of brick and stone above them unlike the >> windowed arches, are modern or part of the original fabric. I suspect
they're modern, in which case making some more further along might be
acceptable.
Yes, I couldnrCOt work out if the third arches over the current entrance were original or 21st century additions. But I then wondered why a beer cellar
in a station undercroft would need decorative arches over doorways? The Midland Railway put a lot of effort into the grand hotel and train shed,
but probably didnrCOt think the humble beer storage cellar needed such decoration.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07 Jan 2026 12:20:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue
forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward
to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all
you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in
the other parts of the station?
It looks like there's another large entrance further to the south, with >>> locked wooden gates:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nopZrWswxDe6W5bn9
I suppose that must be a fire exit from the 'arrivals hall'.
That could probably be turned into the new external Eurostar entrance, >>> without breaking any listed building consents.
There's a glass canopy above the current entrace, so presumably listed
building consent would be needed to move that above the new entrance.
However I doubt that's going to be much of a hurdle. Reconfiguring the
inside may well need listed consent anyway (it's Grade I listed).
Yes, I think all changes need consent, but it should be less of an issue if itrCOs simply the modern additions being moved or reconfigured.
I also notice that there's a retail unit (iSmash) just to the north of >>> the current Eurostar entrance. Surely Eurostar
could take over that space to increase its departures area?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7wJsdrLGRxsBWtpy7
I think that unit is occupying depth between the inner and outer doors (it's
not very deep - phone repair doesn't need a big footprint) so the space
would be 'around the back' of the business class security zone in the
current setup. Probably not useful in the current layout, but might be
usable if it became part of the lounge.
I also notice that there are several ordinary doorways in the station
windows along that road. That suggests that it's
allowed to turn windows in that wall into doorways. So, Eurostar might >>> have other options to move its entrance south.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8iyAc1QamL5oyqy7
That might be feasible. It's so well-done that I can't tell if the existing
doorways, which have a third arch of brick and stone above them unlike the >> windowed arches, are modern or part of the original fabric. I suspect
they're modern, in which case making some more further along might be
acceptable.
Yes, I couldnrCOt work out if the third arches over the current entrance were
original or 21st century additions. But I then wondered why a beer cellar in a station undercroft would need decorative arches over doorways? The Midland Railway put a lot of effort into the grand hotel and train shed, but probably didnrCOt think the humble beer storage cellar needed such decoration.
IrCOve done some more studying of that wall and doorways. I notice that some of the arched openings have engaged Corinthian columns, others donrCOt.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9xNyohyhkvEpzNSc9
I also found more triple-arched windows, which were possibly originally doorways?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ru1sbBjZpKrRafMA9
I also see that the brickwork above most of the triple-arched doorways appears modernrCoperhaps thererCOs concealed modern concrete lintels above the
doorways?
So it looks like there have been more changes made to the exterior of the
old building than are immediately apparent.
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:
[SNIP]Yes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
hurry. But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those
waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus
stops. A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On 07 Jan 2026 12:20:50 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
I thought the cross-passage with doors to the outside, where the E* queue
forms, was part of the structure of the station, which would make it awkward
to move? Or does the layout of columns mean it's a modular space and all
you have to do is shuffle some partitions around and make a new
cross-passage and door on the outside? Does that affect passenger flow in
the other parts of the station?
It looks like there's another large entrance further to the south, with >>>>> locked wooden gates:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nopZrWswxDe6W5bn9
I suppose that must be a fire exit from the 'arrivals hall'.
That could probably be turned into the new external Eurostar entrance, >>>>> without breaking any listed building consents.
There's a glass canopy above the current entrace, so presumably listed >>>> building consent would be needed to move that above the new entrance. >>>> However I doubt that's going to be much of a hurdle. Reconfiguring the >>>> inside may well need listed consent anyway (it's Grade I listed).
Yes, I think all changes need consent, but it should be less of an issue if >>> itrCOs simply the modern additions being moved or reconfigured.
I also notice that there's a retail unit (iSmash) just to the north of >>>>> the current Eurostar entrance. Surely Eurostar
could take over that space to increase its departures area?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7wJsdrLGRxsBWtpy7
I think that unit is occupying depth between the inner and outer doors (it's
not very deep - phone repair doesn't need a big footprint) so the space >>>> would be 'around the back' of the business class security zone in the
current setup. Probably not useful in the current layout, but might be >>>> usable if it became part of the lounge.
I also notice that there are several ordinary doorways in the station >>>>> windows along that road. That suggests that it's
allowed to turn windows in that wall into doorways. So, Eurostar might >>>>> have other options to move its entrance south.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Y8iyAc1QamL5oyqy7
That might be feasible. It's so well-done that I can't tell if the existing
doorways, which have a third arch of brick and stone above them unlike the >>>> windowed arches, are modern or part of the original fabric. I suspect >>>> they're modern, in which case making some more further along might be
acceptable.
Yes, I couldnrCOt work out if the third arches over the current entrance were
original or 21st century additions. But I then wondered why a beer cellar >>> in a station undercroft would need decorative arches over doorways? The >>> Midland Railway put a lot of effort into the grand hotel and train shed, >>> but probably didnrCOt think the humble beer storage cellar needed such
decoration.
IrCOve done some more studying of that wall and doorways. I notice that some >> of the arched openings have engaged Corinthian columns, others donrCOt.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/9xNyohyhkvEpzNSc9
I also found more triple-arched windows, which were possibly originally
doorways?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ru1sbBjZpKrRafMA9
I also see that the brickwork above most of the triple-arched doorways
appears modernrCoperhaps thererCOs concealed modern concrete lintels above the
doorways?
So it looks like there have been more changes made to the exterior of the
old building than are immediately apparent.
I found a side view from shortly after construction: https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/st-pancras-station-london-c-1860s-view-of-st-pancras-news-photo/90779910
Somewhat obscured, but it seems the 9th opening does have a third level of arch to it. Although that doesn't align with Streetview pictures, so maybe they moved those during the refurb?
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if theAre there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax. >>>
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
On 06/01/2026 03:16, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:I suspect gWr operates several tiers of cleaning at Paddington ranging
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>> pick the train. This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>>>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send
the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing
pax.
But donrCOt you need more available train sets and crew for your scheme? >>>
A low cost airline can turn around a plane in 20 minutes. A train is
effectively a series of small aircraft joined together.
I wonder whether just allocating more staff to train turnarounds would
help?
Obviously it's not 100% comparable due to (I presume) a security sweep of
the train being part of the procedure, but Japan can turn a Shinkansen
round for departure in about 5 minutes, by allocating about 7 staff per
carriage; by contrast, at Paddington trains are cleaned by about seven
people per train.
from an ultra-rapid litter pick of obvious items taking only a few
minutes to a more thorough refresh including emptying bins and
replenishing the washrooms.
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:Yes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a
On 05/01/2026 18:11, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jgmit$2rp8q$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:49:49 on Mon, 5 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 05 Jan 2026 15:43:45 +0000
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 15:28:23 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe wrote: >>>>>>
On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 17:57:53 GMT
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> gabbled:
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
That's fine for "expert" users but the us infrequent users have no >>>>>>>>> option but to follow the signs.
And thatrCOs exactly what the signs tell you to do:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YsbSpNynE8XHhp5t5
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NxspFL6cRTmezyRd6
Oh yes, that route *really* avoids the crowds, its almost empty!
It avoids the e* crowds by going nowhere near the e* entrance and
exit. But
there's plenty of other trains that serve
that station, so the whole station/shopping mall is crowded at peak >>>>>> times.
It begs the question why does one have to exit at all just to walk a >>>>> short
distance and re-enter the system. Why didn't they just build a subway >>>>> from
TL to link to the tube that avoid going through the gates? Penny pinching >>>>> no doubt.
I always thought they should have had a secondary exit from the southern >>>> end of SPILL to the Northern Line platforms, but either money or the
crowd management estimates prevented it. Some say the Fleet River
prevents it, but if flows somewhere else now. (Having been diverted
round the north end of the SPILL station box as part of the works).
That would have been a nice idea, but it would mean that SPILL-Northern
passengers would not pass all these retail opportunities. The re-design >>> of the St Pancras area makes much more sense if you think of it as a
medium-sized shopping mall with a few sets of railway platforms set
around the periphery. If you think of it that way, you can see the
importance of getting as many people as possible to pass as many shops
as possible. The current design does that pretty well.
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
hurry. But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those
waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus
stops. A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well.
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one
train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next
another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP
that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused
bit of main line.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for >>>>>> them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>> pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an
incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45 >>>>> and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the
platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while
rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax. >>>
ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
How would that help? ItrCOs only a short distance from there to the two-track tunnelled section to Stratford. ThererCOs no room for any 400m+ sidings.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one
train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next
another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the
depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >congestion on the depot line is less significant.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
To allow your services to reverse in the unused international platforms at >Stratford.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP
that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused
bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms at Stratford.
In message <10jn51s$1631t$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:33:32 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on
Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one
train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next
another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every
terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the
depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess
congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jn51s$1631t$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:33:32 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>> at 09:01.Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >>> terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the
depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >>> congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough
platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
That would reduce, not increase, capacity. Six platforms are enough to run
a 6 tph service, with enough time to clean and re-stock the trains in the platform. YourCOre asking for a return to 19th century practice.
On 08/01/2026 09:41, Recliner wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:Only when the services are working normally without delay.
In message <10jn51s$1631t$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:33:32 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked: >>>>>>>> Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>>> at 09:01.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and >>>>> another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >>>> terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the >>>> depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >>>> congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough
platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
That would reduce, not increase, capacity. Six platforms are enough to run >> a 6 tph service, with enough time to clean and re-stock the trains in the
platform. YourCOre asking for a return to 19th century practice.
Once the service has gone to pot it will become chaotic.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
ECML trains used to at Kings Cross, but I haven't looked to see if the
Azumas carry a whole day's water. All the Azumas spend the night at
Bounds Green, but IC225 still sometimes stay at the platform [eg 07:39
for Bradford today and presumably take on water, similarly some E*s at
St Pancras [eg 08:16 for Amsterdam today]
I've definitely seen some trains re-watering at a platform in the not
too distant past. Can't remember exactly where, but it could be the
longer distance Scotrail DMUs. Maybe the Caledonian Sleeper does at
Euston.
I've seen it at KX - can't remember if it was Mk3 or Mk4 stock, but there
was habitually a hose lying between the tracks in the main shed. Practice was to insert the hose into the filler, turn on the water and wait for it to gush overflowing. Sometimes it could gush for a while before somebody got around to turning the water off.
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retailYes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a
opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close
down.
newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a
hurry. But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those
waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those
hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus
stops. A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well.
And yet it appears to be the international standard for such placesrCa
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>> pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot,
which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the
platforms would be feasible or not?
How would that help? ItrCOs only a short distance from there to the
two-track tunnelled section to Stratford. ThererCOs no room for any 400m+
sidings.
Crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to allow these >shunting sets to use the 'international' platforms at Stratford, rather >than/in addition to the single line to the depot.
The next feasible place to reverse these trains would be Ebbsfleet.
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
IrCOve done some more studying of that wall and doorways. I notice that some
of the arched openings have engaged Corinthian columns, others donrCOt. >> https://maps.app.goo.gl/9xNyohyhkvEpzNSc9
I also found more triple-arched windows, which were possibly originally
doorways?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ru1sbBjZpKrRafMA9
I also see that the brickwork above most of the triple-arched doorways
appears modernrCoperhaps thererCOs concealed modern concrete lintels above the
doorways?
So it looks like there have been more changes made to the exterior of the >> old building than are immediately apparent.
I found a side view from shortly after construction: https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/st-pancras-station-london-c-1860s-view-of-st-pancras-news-photo/90779910
Somewhat obscured, but it seems the 9th opening does have a third level of arch to it. Although that doesn't align with Streetview pictures, so maybe they moved those during the refurb?
Well spotted!
Yes, the triple-arch over double-door entrances seems historically
authentic. But the current Eurostar entrance seems to have a modern recreation of the feature in a location that suited the needs of Eurostar. There are other triple-arches over old, disused entrances, for example:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hFPF7ejfaobAVos77
So they were simply copied for the new entrance, complete with new
brickwork over the new entrance. So that could be done again, if a new,
more southerly entrance is needed where there arenrCOt currently triple arches.
IrCOm also intrigued by the presence or absence of the engaged Corinthian columns. There seems to be no obvious reason why some arches were
embellished with the purely decorative columns, and others werenrCOt. I donrCOt
know if those arches were originally over shops, and if so, maybe only shop entrances got arches? But it appears that the original triple-arched entrances didnrCOt have the columns, whereas the modern entrance does, thus adding evidence that it was added. ItrCOs the only triple-arched section with columns.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ejFkgNZemp4NcxaT9
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
IrCOve done some more studying of that wall and doorways. I notice that some
of the arched openings have engaged Corinthian columns, others donrCOt. >> >> https://maps.app.goo.gl/9xNyohyhkvEpzNSc9
I also found more triple-arched windows, which were possibly originally >> >> doorways?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ru1sbBjZpKrRafMA9
I also see that the brickwork above most of the triple-arched doorways
appears modernrCoperhaps thererCOs concealed modern concrete lintels above the
doorways?
So it looks like there have been more changes made to the exterior of the >> >> old building than are immediately apparent.
I found a side view from shortly after construction:
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/st-pancras-station-london-c-1860s-view-of-st-pancras-news-photo/90779910
Somewhat obscured, but it seems the 9th opening does have a third level of >> > arch to it. Although that doesn't align with Streetview pictures, so maybe >> > they moved those during the refurb?
Well spotted!
Yes, the triple-arch over double-door entrances seems historically
authentic. But the current Eurostar entrance seems to have a modern
recreation of the feature in a location that suited the needs of Eurostar. >> There are other triple-arches over old, disused entrances, for example:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/hFPF7ejfaobAVos77
So they were simply copied for the new entrance, complete with new
brickwork over the new entrance. So that could be done again, if a new,
more southerly entrance is needed where there arenrCOt currently triple
arches.
IrCOm also intrigued by the presence or absence of the engaged Corinthian
columns. There seems to be no obvious reason why some arches were
embellished with the purely decorative columns, and others werenrCOt. I donrCOt
know if those arches were originally over shops, and if so, maybe only shop >> entrances got arches? But it appears that the original triple-arched
entrances didnrCOt have the columns, whereas the modern entrance does, thus >> adding evidence that it was added. ItrCOs the only triple-arched section with
columns.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ejFkgNZemp4NcxaT9
It seems the triple-arched windows also have 'corner protectors' on the >stonework as it meets the ground - black cones that project out from each >corner at ground level. Presumably they were used to protect the stonework >when trolleys were used to haul beer in and out of the vaults? They could
be recent, but then why would they put them in arches which are only windows >in the current design?
Some of the missing Corinthian columns have pointing that suggests they were >once there but have been replaced by plain brickwork. Perhaps they were >beaten up by passing trolleys and replaced by plain bricks at some earlier >time? If that was done at the time of the refurb I'd have thought they
would have put the effort into making replica columns for damaged ones, but >if it happened in cheapskate BR days then the refurb might have decided not >to make replicas where the replacement brickwork was still in good
condition?
It's also possible the corner protectors were incompatible with the
pediments of the columns. The current E* entrance has larger ones that look >modern (and scratched), and those are in front of the columns rather than
the smaller (older?) ones that are integrated into the base of the pillar.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>> at 09:01.Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP >>> that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused
bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms >> at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
In message <10jm144$330pv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:20:20 on Wed, 7 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
Which part of "I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s" >>confused you? Unless you think the mid 90s was after that.
You really don't get it, do you?
The move was planned based on mid-90's overcrowding, therefore what it
was like in the early 2000's would not, repeat **WOULD NOT**, have
caused them to cancel the plans to move the station.
On 08 Jan 2026 12:58:46 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
It seems the triple-arched windows also have 'corner protectors' on the >stonework as it meets the ground - black cones that project out from each >corner at ground level. Presumably they were used to protect the stonework >when trolleys were used to haul beer in and out of the vaults? They could >be recent, but then why would they put them in arches which are only windows >in the current design?
Yes, that's another confirmation that the original triple-arches were over wide doorways that probably saw trolleys or
carts passing through, quite likely bumping into the corners.
Some of the missing Corinthian columns have pointing that suggests they were >once there but have been replaced by plain brickwork. Perhaps they were >beaten up by passing trolleys and replaced by plain bricks at some earlier >time? If that was done at the time of the refurb I'd have thought they >would have put the effort into making replica columns for damaged ones, but >if it happened in cheapskate BR days then the refurb might have decided not >to make replicas where the replacement brickwork was still in good >condition?
Yes, that could well be so. Also, the conservation rules probably say that they should try and conserve the building as
it was before the rebuild, rather than to reconstruct it as it was when originally built. Of course, a lot of the
brickwork has been restored, so it's hard to work out why each bit needed replacing.
But that doesn't explain why so many of the original windows didn't have columns. For example, look at this stretch:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AvrF4bLqTrKNumCg7
It's also possible the corner protectors were incompatible with the >pediments of the columns. The current E* entrance has larger ones that look >modern (and scratched), and those are in front of the columns rather than >the smaller (older?) ones that are integrated into the base of the pillar.
Yes, the column bases are lower than the top of the conical protectors, so it's another reason why the engaged columns
didn't feature in the original doorways:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/yd5Gr3j2F6FWa9To9
The modern entrance has free-standing cones of the same height, which do project above the column bases.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/F9SKW9bPfpTvEcJb6
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GUSEY2mbcDeTmyJd9
On Wed, 7 Jan 2026 16:28:23 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jm144$330pv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:20:20 on Wed, 7 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
Which part of "I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s" >>>confused you? Unless you think the mid 90s was after that.
You really don't get it, do you?
The move was planned based on mid-90's overcrowding, therefore what it
was like in the early 2000's would not, repeat **WOULD NOT**, have
caused them to cancel the plans to move the station.
Right, because expensive parts of government projects never get
cancelled at the last minute *cough* HS2 *cough*.
And I find it VERY hard to believe that it was more crowded in the 90s than >early 2000s giving how the City was hiring ever more people. Unless it was >you with all your flunkies and fans taking up the platform space.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms >>> at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western >end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >>>> terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the >>>> depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >>>> congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough
platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
That would reduce, not increase, capacity. Six platforms are enoughOnly when the services are working normally without delay.
to run a 6 tph service, with enough time to clean and re-stock the
trains in the platform. YourCOre asking for a return to 19th century >>practice.
Once the service has gone to pot it will become chaotic.
In message <10jnuok$1bic4$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:52:20 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >>>>> terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the >>>>> depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >>>>> congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough >>>> platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
That would reduce, not increase, capacity. Six platforms are enoughOnly when the services are working normally without delay.
to run a 6 tph service, with enough time to clean and re-stock the
trains in the platform. YourCOre asking for a return to 19th century
practice.
Once the service has gone to pot it will become chaotic.
Not just that, but there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously.
eg: Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't
send to the depot until 15:15. Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* Amsterdam
is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
Anyone blustering about it never being the plan to send trains to the
depot to free up platforms is suffering from something in between a personality disorder and chronic amnesia.
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western >>end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
On 08/01/2026 02:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 19:20, Tweed wrote:And yet it appears to be the international standard for such placesrCa
Have you considered that quite a number of people might find the retail >>>> opportunities useful? They clearly get trade otherwise they would close >>>> down.Yes, and I have used one of these shops now and again e.g. to buy a
newspaper or a box of overpriced candy when I need to get a gift in a
hurry. But my guess is that almost all of their customers are those
waiting for Eurostar and other long-distance trains, while all of those
hurrying by are, like me, just trying to get use it as a corridor
linking SPILL or the MML platforms to the underground lines or bus
stops. A transit corridor and a shopping centre don't mix all that well. >>
Shopkeepers and their landlords think a transit corridor and a shopping centre mix very well. Passengers who just want to get to their train
don't. It's standard because passengers don't design railway stations.
On Thu, 8 Jan 2026 02:33:39 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter >>>>>>>> pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station. >>>>>>>>
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments >>>>>>>> of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
How would that help? ItrCOs only a short distance from there to the
two-track tunnelled section to Stratford. ThererCOs no room for any 400m+ >>> sidings.
Crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to allow these >> shunting sets to use the 'international' platforms at Stratford, rather
than/in addition to the single line to the depot.
If you look at Google Maps, there's no space:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RCBvSv8GpTDZUX278
The next feasible place to reverse these trains would be Ebbsfleet.
But there's simply no need. Assuming each platform has an hourly service, platform occupancy would be perhaps 50-55
minutes. If it takes 5 minutes for passengers to get off, and doors open
25 minutes before departure, that leaves 20
minutes for cleaning, etc. It's more efficient to do that in the platform than to move the train somewhere else,
consuming track paths.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked: >>>>>>>> Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>>> at 09:01.departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and >>>>> another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP >>>> that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused >>>> bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms >>> at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
In message <10jnuok$1bic4$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:52:20 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
When I wrote that I was under the impression that you wanted to run every >>>>> terminating train (of the increased frequency under discussion) to the >>>>> depot to be serviced - so 6+tph each way?
Now that it's become clear that you only want to run 1tph there, I guess >>>>> congestion on the depot line is less significant.
You'd only need to run sufficient trains to the depot, to clear enough >>>> platforms at StP to cope with an increased cross-channel flow.
The obvious thing to do would be insist any *new* operators service
their trains at the depot, while E* remained servicing them at StP.
And guess what? Virgin just got granted access rights to the depot.
That would reduce, not increase, capacity. Six platforms are enoughOnly when the services are working normally without delay.
to run a 6 tph service, with enough time to clean and re-stock the
trains in the platform. YourCOre asking for a return to 19th century
practice.
Once the service has gone to pot it will become chaotic.
Not just that, but there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously.
eg: Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't
send to the depot until 15:15.
Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* Amsterdam
is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked: >>>>>>>>> Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the >>>>>>>>> departing pax.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>>>> at 09:01.The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>>>
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable? >>>>>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and >>>>>> another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16 >>>>>>
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>>>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP >>>>> that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused >>>>> bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
I don't think I've ever been down to the ends of the platforms at Stratford International, so I wasn't sure how much space there was, nor whether there are two single-bore tunnels or one, two-track tunnel.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to >> Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned >> train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford"; it was me who wondered whether it would be feasible to amend the track layout to allow them to be accommodated in the platforms there rather than the depot.
In message <s27gJ$Gba8XpFARB@perry.uk>, at 15:00:43 on Thu, 8 Jan 2026, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
And for the avoidance of doubt, the expression "Stratford" was shorthand
for "Temple Mills which is in Stratford".
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at
the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to >> Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned >> train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
it was me who wondered whether it would be feasible to amend the track >layout to allow them to be accommodated in the platforms there rather
than the depot.
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh
I don't think I've ever been down to the ends of the platforms at Stratford >> International, so I wasn't sure how much space there was, nor whether there >> are two single-bore tunnels or one, two-track tunnel.
IrCOve never been to Stratford International either (I changed NSE trains at >Stratford once)
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at
the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to >>> Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned >>> train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
it was me who wondered whether it would be feasible to amend the track
layout to allow them to be accommodated in the platforms there rather
than the depot.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2026 02:33:39 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
On 05/01/2026 09:38, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jeofo$2bv34$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:10:01 on Sun, 4 Jan >>>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
It take a finite time for inbound trains to disembark passengers and for
them to leave the secure area, check they're all left the area, litter
pick the train.-a This all limits the capacity of the railway station.
What is the quickest they can turnaround a train with full compliments
of passengers?
About 40 minutes:
<https://x.com/eurostarjustinp/status/1674468036483461134>
<quote>
@Eurostarjustinp 26/09/2023
Quick turnaround: The train for 9046 arrived at 17:22 following an >>>>>>>> incident. It was speedily cleaned, and we prepped it for our
colleagues who
arrived separately at 17:35. Boarding of over 800 people started at 17:45
and the train left on time at 18:01. Result!
</quote>
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>>
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
How would that help? ItrCOs only a short distance from there to the
two-track tunnelled section to Stratford. ThererCOs no room for any 400m+ >>>> sidings.
Crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to allow these >>> shunting sets to use the 'international' platforms at Stratford, rather
than/in addition to the single line to the depot.
If you look at Google Maps, there's no space:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/RCBvSv8GpTDZUX278
The next feasible place to reverse these trains would be Ebbsfleet.
But there's simply no need. Assuming each platform has an hourly service,
platform occupancy would be perhaps 50-55
minutes. If it takes 5 minutes for passengers to get off, and doors open
25 minutes before departure, that leaves 20
minutes for cleaning, etc. It's more efficient to do that in the platform
than to move the train somewhere else,
consuming track paths.
I would suggest a little more resilience in platform reoccupation times,
tbh. Your timings sound like a recipe for having trains stuck outside
waiting for a platform because of a few minutes delay, particularly with
the restriction of not having an arriving and departing train sharing an 'island'.
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>>>>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked: >>>>>>>>> Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the >>>>>>>>> departing pax.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>>>>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>>>>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels >>>>>> at 09:01.The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the >>>>>>> station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>>>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity. >>>>>>
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable? >>>>>>>
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and >>>>>> another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16 >>>>>>
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>>>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP >>>>> that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused >>>>> bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
I don't think I've ever been down to the ends of the platforms at Stratford International, so I wasn't sure how much space there was, nor whether there are two single-bore tunnels or one, two-track tunnel.
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh
The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at
the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to >>> Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned >>> train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >>> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh >>The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>> the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread, the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not what you had in mind.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >>>> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh
The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've
visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
IrCOm with you on this. The only issue I have with passenger flow is around the Eurostar entrance, and this is largely due to Brits trying to move to
the left to avoid oncoming people, and the continentals moving to the
right. But itrCOs not a real issue.
The only thing that really needs fixing is the woeful provision of female toilets.
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>> the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread, >> the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be
necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not
what you had in mind.
I think sending all arriving trains to the depot for servicing was exactly what he had in mind. ThatrCOs only 1-2 tph now, but could be 6 tph in each direction if the international train frequency was increased to 6 tph.
Basically, Roland objects to encountering cleaners and re-stockers with
their trolleys, etc on the platform, and therefore thinks that all train servicing should be done elsewhere. His idea was that as soon as all the
pax were off an arriving train it should go to the depot for cleaning, re-stocking, watering, etc. He obviously knew nothing about the depot, and thought it was in Stratford. ItrCOs fair enough that he should have such a vision, but being Roland, thought his fantasy had been the original plan
all along, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
This is what he said:
Roland: rCLThere's six E* platforms at St Pancras #5-#10), and it's very unusual to see all off them occupied simultaneously. The original plan was for them to head off to the depot in Stratford to be cleaned/resupplied, as soon as empty; but they do it at the station still.
Which also extends the time for passengers to get off and on, because they leave the platforms obstructed by the servicing vehicles.rCY
Tweed: rCLThe time to get off the platforms is rate limited by the exit ramps and the subsequent shuffle to the exit doors.rCY
Roland: rCLIt's also limited by having to squeeze between often very narrow gaps left by the seemingly abandoned trains of service vehicles.
And in any event, if you are going to send the train off the Stratford, you only need the passengers off the train and onto the platform, it's
irrelevant whether they've managed to get off the platform yet.rCY
rCorCorCo
So thererCOs no doubt that he was claiming the original plan was for *all cleaning and servicing* to be done in the depot, which he thought was in Stratford. Now herCOs been proved wrong, herCOs doing the usual RWD (Roland Wriggling Dance) to keep claiming herCOd meant something completely different to what herCOd clearly said.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>>> the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread, >>> the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be >>> necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not >>> what you had in mind.
I think sending all arriving trains to the depot for servicing was exactly >> what he had in mind. ThatrCOs only 1-2 tph now, but could be 6 tph in each >> direction if the international train frequency was increased to 6 tph.
Basically, Roland objects to encountering cleaners and re-stockers with
their trolleys, etc on the platform, and therefore thinks that all train
servicing should be done elsewhere. His idea was that as soon as all the
pax were off an arriving train it should go to the depot for cleaning,
re-stocking, watering, etc. He obviously knew nothing about the depot, and >> thought it was in Stratford. ItrCOs fair enough that he should have such a >> vision, but being Roland, thought his fantasy had been the original plan
all along, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
This is what he said:
Roland: rCLThere's six E* platforms at St Pancras #5-#10), and it's very
unusual to see all off them occupied simultaneously. The original plan was >> for them to head off to the depot in Stratford to be cleaned/resupplied, as >> soon as empty; but they do it at the station still.
Which also extends the time for passengers to get off and on, because they >> leave the platforms obstructed by the servicing vehicles.rCY
Tweed: rCLThe time to get off the platforms is rate limited by the exit ramps
and the subsequent shuffle to the exit doors.rCY
Roland: rCLIt's also limited by having to squeeze between often very narrow >> gaps left by the seemingly abandoned trains of service vehicles.
And in any event, if you are going to send the train off the Stratford, you >> only need the passengers off the train and onto the platform, it's
irrelevant whether they've managed to get off the platform yet.rCY
rCorCorCo
So thererCOs no doubt that he was claiming the original plan was for *all
cleaning and servicing* to be done in the depot, which he thought was in
Stratford. Now herCOs been proved wrong, herCOs doing the usual RWD (Roland >> Wriggling Dance) to keep claiming herCOd meant something completely different
to what herCOd clearly said.
All this aside, itrCOs unclear to me why they canrCOt *now* put some changes in
place to load passengers onto the trains earlier than currently. Cutting
down the wait in the cramped departure area would be an immediate improvement.
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>>>> the westernI meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible. >>>>>>>>>
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>>>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread,
the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be >>>> necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not >>>> what you had in mind.
I think sending all arriving trains to the depot for servicing was exactly >>> what he had in mind. ThatrCOs only 1-2 tph now, but could be 6 tph in each >>> direction if the international train frequency was increased to 6 tph.
Basically, Roland objects to encountering cleaners and re-stockers with
their trolleys, etc on the platform, and therefore thinks that all train >>> servicing should be done elsewhere. His idea was that as soon as all the >>> pax were off an arriving train it should go to the depot for cleaning,
re-stocking, watering, etc. He obviously knew nothing about the depot, and >>> thought it was in Stratford. ItrCOs fair enough that he should have such a >>> vision, but being Roland, thought his fantasy had been the original plan >>> all along, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
This is what he said:
Roland: rCLThere's six E* platforms at St Pancras #5-#10), and it's very >>> unusual to see all off them occupied simultaneously. The original plan was >>> for them to head off to the depot in Stratford to be cleaned/resupplied, as >>> soon as empty; but they do it at the station still.
Which also extends the time for passengers to get off and on, because they >>> leave the platforms obstructed by the servicing vehicles.rCY
Tweed: rCLThe time to get off the platforms is rate limited by the exit ramps
and the subsequent shuffle to the exit doors.rCY
Roland: rCLIt's also limited by having to squeeze between often very narrow >>> gaps left by the seemingly abandoned trains of service vehicles.
And in any event, if you are going to send the train off the Stratford, you >>> only need the passengers off the train and onto the platform, it's
irrelevant whether they've managed to get off the platform yet.rCY
rCorCorCo
So thererCOs no doubt that he was claiming the original plan was for *all >>> cleaning and servicing* to be done in the depot, which he thought was in >>> Stratford. Now herCOs been proved wrong, herCOs doing the usual RWD (Roland >>> Wriggling Dance) to keep claiming herCOd meant something completely different
to what herCOd clearly said.
All this aside, itrCOs unclear to me why they canrCOt *now* put some changes in
place to load passengers onto the trains earlier than currently. Cutting
down the wait in the cramped departure area would be an immediate
improvement.
Yes, at the very least, they should announce the platform and open the
gates at least 25, preferably 30, minutes before departure. Even if the
train doors are still closed it, would give people the time to walk to
their carriages, and wait at the right doors.
Given how long they have to turn trains round, they ought to be able to
open the train doors at least 20 min before departure, perhaps 30. Not only would that allow passengers to wait more comfortably on board, but would
also allow a more relaxed, leisurely boarding process.
The only slightly annoying thing is that the onboard WiFi doesnrCOt work in the station, and usually neither do phones. I donrCOt think the station WiFi is accessible inside the new trains, either.
there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that
inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously.
eg: Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't
send to the depot until 15:15.
Possibly a 'hot spare' for the day? Ready to be swapped into service if >something is late arriving during the day?
Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* AmsterdamLooking at RTT a few weeks in advance, to avoid any confusion with VAR or >STP/VSTP schedules, it looks like three sets outstable at St Pancras >overnight, plus there's an odd Z-headcode path which comes off depot and
is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
goes back to depot (potentially to allow one of the outstabled sets to be >swapped if necessary?).
Outstabling is not unusual, it reduces pressure on depots overnight, saves >having a very early start for a few crews, and provides some resilience for >the early morning services against disruption on depot overnight.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >>> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh >>The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've >visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
In message <10jpi5r$1v3cj$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:29:47 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >>>> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh
The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've
visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
I suggest you try getting a wheelchair to the toilets that have the
shops in The Circle in the way.
In message <10jp2bm$1q3jg$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:50 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that
inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously.
eg:-a Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't
-a-a-a-a send to the depot until 15:15.
Possibly a 'hot spare' for the day? Ready to be swapped into service if
something is late arriving during the day?
Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* AmsterdamLooking at RTT a few weeks in advance, to avoid any confusion with VAR or
-a-a-a-a is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
STP/VSTP schedules, it looks like three sets outstable at St Pancras
overnight, plus there's an odd Z-headcode path which comes off depot and
goes back to depot (potentially to allow one of the outstabled sets to be
swapped if necessary?).
Outstabling is not unusual, it reduces pressure on depots overnight,
saves
having a very early start for a few crews, and provides some
resilience for
the early morning services against disruption on depot overnight.
Outstabling of this kind is fine, as long as you have the spare platform capacity.
It's incompatible with also turning round 6tph in six platforms during normal working hours.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my >>> use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite useful, tbh >>The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow
of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
I get the impression at certain railway stations that maximising the
retail units is the prime consideration with passenger flow much lower
down the list. Kings Cross & St Pancras, Liverpool Street, and
Birmingham New Street railway stations are obvious examples.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jpi5r$1v3cj$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:29:47 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail obstructed my
use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite >>>>>useful, tbh
The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow >>>> of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've
visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
I suggest you try getting a wheelchair to the toilets that have the
shops in The Circle in the way.
Toilet provision is overall terrible at StP. But this is a different issue
to shops preventing passenger circulation.
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to >>>>>>>> allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at
the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep
drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread, >the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be >necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not >what you had in mind.
Am 09.01.2026 um 11:28 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jp2bm$1q3jg$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:50 on Thu, 8 Jan >>2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that
inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously.
eg:a Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't >>>> aaaa send to the depot until 15:15.
Possibly a 'hot spare' for the day? Ready to be swapped into service if
something is late arriving during the day?
Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* AmsterdamLooking at RTT a few weeks in advance, to avoid any confusion with VAR or >>> STP/VSTP schedules, it looks like three sets outstable at St Pancras
aaaa is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
overnight, plus there's an odd Z-headcode path which comes off depot and >>> goes back to depot (potentially to allow one of the outstabled sets to be >>> swapped if necessary?).
Outstabling is not unusual, it reduces pressure on depots overnight, >>>saves having a very early start for a few crews, and provides some >>>resilience for the early morning services against disruption on
depot overnight.
Outstabling of this kind is fine, as long as you have the spare
platform capacity.
It's incompatible with also turning round 6tph in six platforms
during normal working hours.
Can we please keep the distinction between "Outstabling overnight" on
the one hand (where the daytime service pattern is irrelevant) and
various levels of round-trip "service and supply" on the other hand
(minimal is: cleaning the bins, supplying loo paper and re-stocking the >diner/mini bar, steps up include hoovering the train, re-filling fresh >water, removing waste water, ...).
These various necessary service levels have various requirments on
duration, space and tools available so the railway service logistics
need to see what can be provided at platform during a normal 6tph >turnaround, whether you need additional service platforms at or near
the terminus for some or all of the trains etc.
6tph on a unified fleet would enable logistics approaches (like
swapping 1tph with a spare at a nearby service depot) not available for
the multi-competitor scenario we're discussing here.
In message <10jm144$330pv$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:20:20 on Wed, 7 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Tue, 6 Jan 2026 12:14:00 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jirjn$2ujsf$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:51 on Tue, 6 Jan >>>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 17:49:20 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jgl0c$302k3$1@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 15:22:52 >>>>>on Mon, 5 Jan 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s. It was >>>>>>>>never crowded to the point of being dangerous.
Only because you weren't there when it was.
And when was that then?
In the years before it was closed, and when Thameslink 2000 was >>>>>being planned. So mid 1990's. At the time I used to travel quite >>>>>frequently to the OFTEL office, which was almost next door to City >>>>>Thameslink. Then catch the train to Kings Cross Thameslink and use >>>>>the tube-train tunnels to get to the Suburban platforms [9-11] or >>>>>sometimes platform 8, for a train back to Cambs.
So IOW it got LESS crowded before they closed it.
I have no idea how you came to that perverse conclusion.
Which part of "I used it regularly for 4 years back in the early 2000s" >>confused you? Unless you think the mid 90s was after that.
You really don't get it, do you?
The move was planned based on mid-90's overcrowding, therefore what it
was like in the early 2000's would not, repeat **WOULD NOT**, have
caused them to cancel the plans to move the station.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:I donrCOt recall any problems using my iPad whilst sat in the station. It >uses the EE network. Vodafone doesnrCOt work at StP - thererCOs signal but no >traffic moves.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked: >>>>>>>>>
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>>>>> the westernI meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible. >>>>>>>>>>
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread,
the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be >>>>> necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not >>>>> what you had in mind.
I think sending all arriving trains to the depot for servicing was exactly >>>> what he had in mind. ThatrCOs only 1-2 tph now, but could be 6 tph in each >>>> direction if the international train frequency was increased to 6 tph. >>>>
Basically, Roland objects to encountering cleaners and re-stockers with >>>> their trolleys, etc on the platform, and therefore thinks that all train >>>> servicing should be done elsewhere. His idea was that as soon as all the >>>> pax were off an arriving train it should go to the depot for cleaning, >>>> re-stocking, watering, etc. He obviously knew nothing about the depot, and >>>> thought it was in Stratford. ItrCOs fair enough that he should have such a >>>> vision, but being Roland, thought his fantasy had been the original plan >>>> all along, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
This is what he said:
Roland: rCLThere's six E* platforms at St Pancras #5-#10), and it's very >>>> unusual to see all off them occupied simultaneously. The original plan was >>>> for them to head off to the depot in Stratford to be cleaned/resupplied, as
soon as empty; but they do it at the station still.
Which also extends the time for passengers to get off and on, because they >>>> leave the platforms obstructed by the servicing vehicles.rCY
Tweed: rCLThe time to get off the platforms is rate limited by the exit ramps
and the subsequent shuffle to the exit doors.rCY
Roland: rCLIt's also limited by having to squeeze between often very narrow
gaps left by the seemingly abandoned trains of service vehicles.
And in any event, if you are going to send the train off the Stratford, you
only need the passengers off the train and onto the platform, it's
irrelevant whether they've managed to get off the platform yet.rCY
rCorCorCo
So thererCOs no doubt that he was claiming the original plan was for *all >>>> cleaning and servicing* to be done in the depot, which he thought was in >>>> Stratford. Now herCOs been proved wrong, herCOs doing the usual RWD (Roland
Wriggling Dance) to keep claiming herCOd meant something completely different
to what herCOd clearly said.
All this aside, itrCOs unclear to me why they canrCOt *now* put some changes in
place to load passengers onto the trains earlier than currently. Cutting >>> down the wait in the cramped departure area would be an immediate
improvement.
Yes, at the very least, they should announce the platform and open the
gates at least 25, preferably 30, minutes before departure. Even if the
train doors are still closed it, would give people the time to walk to
their carriages, and wait at the right doors.
Given how long they have to turn trains round, they ought to be able to
open the train doors at least 20 min before departure, perhaps 30. Not only >> would that allow passengers to wait more comfortably on board, but would
also allow a more relaxed, leisurely boarding process.
The only slightly annoying thing is that the onboard WiFi doesnrCOt work in >> the station, and usually neither do phones. I donrCOt think the station WiFi >> is accessible inside the new trains, either.
In message <10jpi5t$1v3cj$2@dont-email.me>, at 00:29:49 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international >>>>>>>>> platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible.
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>> the western
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity, >>>>> then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
Indeed, but there are others who keep butting in with frankly absurd >accusations, so I feel the need to rub in what my idea really was, in
case it helps.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread, >>the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be >>necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not >>what you had in mind.
Indeed, there are some people here who take a binary view of the world,
and can only contemplate sending zero, or all, the trains on the trip to
the deport.
On Fri, 9 Jan 2026 10:20:53 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:I donrCOt recall any problems using my iPad whilst sat in the station. It
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bo$1q3jg$5@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:52 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10joed5$1hos4$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:19:17 on Thu, 8 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked: >>>>>>>>>>
Indeed not - thererCOs no space between the existing pointwork at >>>>>>>>>>> the westernI meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international
platforms
at Stratford.
Looking at Google Maps, that doesnrCOt seem to be feasible. >>>>>>>>>>>
end of the platforms and the tunnels tp StP
Maybe that's why I didn't suggest it?
Ah, but you did propose exactly that!
Or was it some other Roland Perry who said, rCLVery good, but we keep >>>>>>>>> drifting away the point, which is that if the platforms reach capacity,
then the way to accommodate more is to send the empty train straight off to
Stratford to be cleaned there, while rapidly slotting in an already cleaned
train to pick up the departing paxrCY?
Roland suggested sending trains to "Stratford";
Which was shorthand for "The depot at Stratford". If I'd meant
"Stratford Station" I'd have said that (in case people thought
I meant the depot).
I know that and understand that and never said otherwise.
However at the time I made my reply which began this godforsaken subthread,
the general discussion seemed to be under the impression that it might be
necessary to send multiple tph there, which I also now understand was not
what you had in mind.
I think sending all arriving trains to the depot for servicing was exactly
what he had in mind. ThatrCOs only 1-2 tph now, but could be 6 tph in each
direction if the international train frequency was increased to 6 tph. >>>>>
Basically, Roland objects to encountering cleaners and re-stockers with >>>>> their trolleys, etc on the platform, and therefore thinks that all train >>>>> servicing should be done elsewhere. His idea was that as soon as all the >>>>> pax were off an arriving train it should go to the depot for cleaning, >>>>> re-stocking, watering, etc. He obviously knew nothing about the depot, and
thought it was in Stratford. ItrCOs fair enough that he should have such a
vision, but being Roland, thought his fantasy had been the original plan >>>>> all along, which is, of course, complete nonsense.
This is what he said:
Roland: rCLThere's six E* platforms at St Pancras #5-#10), and it's very >>>>> unusual to see all off them occupied simultaneously. The original plan was
for them to head off to the depot in Stratford to be cleaned/resupplied, as
soon as empty; but they do it at the station still.
Which also extends the time for passengers to get off and on, because they
leave the platforms obstructed by the servicing vehicles.rCY
Tweed: rCLThe time to get off the platforms is rate limited by the exit ramps
and the subsequent shuffle to the exit doors.rCY
Roland: rCLIt's also limited by having to squeeze between often very narrow
gaps left by the seemingly abandoned trains of service vehicles.
And in any event, if you are going to send the train off the Stratford, you
only need the passengers off the train and onto the platform, it's
irrelevant whether they've managed to get off the platform yet.rCY
rCorCorCo
So thererCOs no doubt that he was claiming the original plan was for *all >>>>> cleaning and servicing* to be done in the depot, which he thought was in >>>>> Stratford. Now herCOs been proved wrong, herCOs doing the usual RWD (Roland
Wriggling Dance) to keep claiming herCOd meant something completely different
to what herCOd clearly said.
All this aside, itrCOs unclear to me why they canrCOt *now* put some changes in
place to load passengers onto the trains earlier than currently. Cutting >>>> down the wait in the cramped departure area would be an immediate
improvement.
Yes, at the very least, they should announce the platform and open the
gates at least 25, preferably 30, minutes before departure. Even if the
train doors are still closed it, would give people the time to walk to
their carriages, and wait at the right doors.
Given how long they have to turn trains round, they ought to be able to
open the train doors at least 20 min before departure, perhaps 30. Not only >>> would that allow passengers to wait more comfortably on board, but would >>> also allow a more relaxed, leisurely boarding process.
The only slightly annoying thing is that the onboard WiFi doesnrCOt work in >>> the station, and usually neither do phones. I donrCOt think the station WiFi
is accessible inside the new trains, either.
uses the EE network. Vodafone doesnrCOt work at StP - thererCOs signal but no
traffic moves.
Is that even in the 374s?
In message <10jqo81$23ig8$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:19:29 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 11:28 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jp2bm$1q3jg$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:50 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
there's an underlying fallacy involved, which is that
inbound services are timetabled to depart around an hour later. But
trains sit in the platforms for considerable periods sometimes.
They currently don't even send them back to the depot expeditiously. >>>>>
eg:-a Platform 10 has an 09:57 arrival from Amsterdam, which they don't >>>>> -a-a-a-a send to the depot until 15:15.
Possibly a 'hot spare' for the day? Ready to be swapped into service if >>>> something is late arriving during the day?
Meanwhile the 06:16 *to* AmsterdamLooking at RTT a few weeks in advance, to avoid any confusion with VAR or >>>> STP/VSTP schedules, it looks like three sets outstable at St Pancras
-a-a-a-a is the 19:57 arrival the previous day.
overnight, plus there's an odd Z-headcode path which comes off depot and >>>> goes back to depot (potentially to allow one of the outstabled sets to be >>>> swapped if necessary?).
Outstabling is not unusual, it reduces pressure on depots overnight, >>>>saves having a very early start for a few crews, and provides some >>>>resilience for the early morning services against disruption on
depot overnight.
Outstabling of this kind is fine, as long as you have the spare >>>platform capacity.
It's incompatible with also turning round 6tph in six platforms
during normal working hours.
Can we please keep the distinction between "Outstabling overnight" on
the one hand (where the daytime service pattern is irrelevant) and
various levels of round-trip "service and supply" on the other hand >>(minimal is: cleaning the bins, supplying loo paper and re-stocking the >>diner/mini bar, steps up include hoovering the train, re-filling fresh >>water, removing waste water, ...).
We can if you like. However, I thought I'd made it fairly clear, by
quoting chapter and verse (see above) the details of two trains which >outstabled at StP for over five hours in the morning, and two and a half >hours in the evening before the last inbound service arrives [plus >overnight].
These various necessary service levels have various requirments on >>duration, space and tools available so the railway service logistics
need to see what can be provided at platform during a normal 6tph >>turnaround, whether you need additional service platforms at or near
the terminus for some or all of the trains etc.
6tph on a unified fleet would enable logistics approaches (like
swapping 1tph with a spare at a nearby service depot) not available for >>the multi-competitor scenario we're discussing here.
All good questions, but I'm pretty sure that operating all day on a 6tph >service would rule out any long daytime outstabling, and also require
some trains to be serviced at Temple Meads during busy periods.
In message <10jqm4u$2a21p$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:42 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jpi5r$1v3cj$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:29:47 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jp2bh$1q3jg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:59:45 on Thu, 8 Jan >>>>> 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
OTTOMH I can't think of a station I've used where the retail
obstructed my
use of the transport. I generally find the retail outlets quite
useful, tbh
The accusations are that "too much" retail gets in the way of the flow >>>>> of passengers.
And I'm saying that I don't recall having felt that at any station I've >>>> visited.
Including St Pancras, which I used 17 times in the last two years.
I suggest you try getting a wheelchair to the toilets that have the
shops in The Circle in the way.
Toilet provision is overall terrible at StP. But this is a different
issue
to shops preventing passenger circulation.
The presence of the shops in The Circle are frustrating passengers'
efforts to access the toilets there, because they are further away than
they otherwise would have been.
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the >>Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
but printing a voucher that can be redeemed at nearby shops and
watering holes.
I donrCOt recall any problems using my iPad whilst sat in the station. It >>> uses the EE network. Vodafone doesnrCOt work at StP - thererCOs signal but no
traffic moves.
Is that even in the 374s?
Yes. But then in the initial tunnels out of StP you get the joke EE
service. Full signal but no traffic moving. Only once the train reaches the >open air does it work. It almost as though they forgot to plug the router >into the wider world. CanrCOt be a feature of being in a tunnel, as things >work just fine in the Channel Tunnel.
Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
On 06/01/2026 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jhuqo$3f5af$2@nntp.eternal-september.org>, at 03:16:40 on >>> Tue, 6 Jan 2026, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
Very good, but we keep drifting away the point, which is that if the >>>>>> platforms reach capacity, then the way to accommodate more is to send >>>>>> the empty train straight off to Stratford to be cleaned there, while >>>>>> rapidly slotting in an already cleaned train to pick up the
departing pax.
Are there enough paths between St P and Stratford to cope with all the >>>>> ensuing ECS movements on top of the enhanced service timetable?
The track layout at Stratford doesn't easily permit reversing in the
station, so such trains would have to use the connection to the depot, >>>> which is single track and therefore a further bottleneck to capacity.
Looking at RTT, the current service pattern [straw poll, today] has one >>> train leaving TM for platform 8, then departing for Paris at 0801; next >>> another from TM to platform for platform 9 then departing for Brussels
at 09:01.
Plus an 06:31 for Paris which presumably spent the night at StP, and
another at 07:01, and another - this time for Amsterdam - at 08:16
It's not exactly very busy.
I wonder whether adding a couple of crossovers at the London end of the >>>> platforms would be feasible or not?
Is that to reduce the bottleneck to and from the depot?
It would effectively create the hypothetical siding half a mile from StP
that I used in my earlier thought experiment, by repurposing an unused
bit of main line.
I meant crossovers at the London end of the platforms at Stratford, to
allow these shunting sets to reverse in the disused international platforms >at Stratford.
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 JanEven thatrCOs changing. In rural Luss on the banks of Loch Lomand the public >loos had a card reader. Things are changing very rapidly.
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
but printing a voucher that can be redeemed at nearby shops and
watering holes.
There was a supermarket in central Royston which did that with its
carpark, when I lived nearby. Drove past a few weeks ago and now
it's a block of flats.
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonAt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the >>>Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
but printing a voucher that can be redeemed at nearby shops and
watering holes.
There was a supermarket in central Royston which did that with its
carpark, when I lived nearby. Drove past a few weeks ago and now
it's a block of flats.
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
Showoff! :-)
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coinThe mechanism usually accepts pounds or Euros and is often labelled as
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
such.
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan >>2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1
coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonAt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the >>>Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
but printing a voucher that can be redeemed at nearby shops and
watering holes.
There was a supermarket in central Royston which did that with its
carpark, when I lived nearby. Drove past a few weeks ago and now
it's a block of flats.
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 JanEven thatAs changing. In rural Luss on the banks of Loch Lomand the public >loos had a card reader. Things are changing very rapidly.
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonAt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
On Fri, 9 Jan 2026 14:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:That's very common. First place I encountered it was York. Annoyingly >Cambridge's solution to this problem seems to be to close loos that
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 JanEven thatrCOs changing. In rural Luss on the banks of Loch Lomand the public >>loos had a card reader. Things are changing very rapidly.
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Their strapline should be DonrCOt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the
Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.
still require cash.
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19 on
Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do have
a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I said that already).
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so
I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached
so I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
The only outfit near her with demands a deposit is Stresco.-a However
when you encounter their self-centred, selfish, rude, inconsiderate, self-entitled customers you would understand why.
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so
I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so
I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so >>> I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need
tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
Yes, IrCOd have expected that Shetland would have a well-behaved, low crime, island community.
ThatrCOs why itrCOs so amusing that itrCOs portrayed as needing two DIs who need
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so >>> I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need
tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
You donrCOt have canals in which to dump the trolleys :)
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so >>> I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need
tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
Yes, IrCOd have expected that Shetland would have a well-behaved, low crime, island community.
ThatrCOs why itrCOs so amusing that itrCOs portrayed as needing two DIs who need
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
On 10/01/2026 16:08, Recliner wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:There are many places where it's dangerous to be.-a The Somerset
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19 >>>>> on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 >>>>>>> coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying >>>>>> around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones. >>>>>
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens
attached so
I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need >>> tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
Yes, IrCOd have expected that Shetland would have a well-behaved, low
crime,
island community.
ThatrCOs why itrCOs so amusing that itrCOs portrayed as needing two DIs who >> need
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
Midsomers and anywhere Miss Marples is staying spring to mind.
In message <10jrpqk$2ludg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:36 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1
coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
However we have three cars, and I could be using any one of them to go
to the shops.
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 coin >>>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying
around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached so >>> I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need
tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
Yes, IrCOd have expected that Shetland would have a well-behaved, low crime, island community.
ThatrCOs why itrCOs so amusing that itrCOs portrayed as needing two DIs who need
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
On 10/01/2026 16:41, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 16:08, Recliner wrote:
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:There are many places where it's dangerous to be.-a The Somerset
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19 >>>>>> on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 >>>>>>>> coinMost people have a token for the purpose.
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket. >>>>>>>
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying >>>>>>> around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers
returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones. >>>>>>
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do >>>>>> have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I >>>>>> said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens
attached so
I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here need >>>> tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
Yes, IrCOd have expected that Shetland would have a well-behaved, low
crime,
island community.
ThatrCOs why itrCOs so amusing that itrCOs portrayed as needing two DIs who
need
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
Midsomers and anywhere Miss Marples is staying spring to mind.
Oxford is pretty dangerous.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jrpqk$2ludg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:36 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1
coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
However we have three cars, and I could be using any one of them to go
to the shops.
And you canrCOt afford to keep a pound coin in each car?
Most people have a token for the purpose.I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying >>>around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers >>returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached
so I always have one available when needed. Be prepared and all that.
On 10/01/2026 12:39, Coffee wrote:
On 10/01/2026 12:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <t0d4mktunr1t3dgc1aaqvusr80g94fa3n2@4ax.com>, at 11:14:19
on Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin >>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
Most people have a token for the purpose.
I very much doubt it's "most" people.
I expect a euro would work and I'm sure I have a few of those lying >>>>around.
Given the current fashion for cashless purchases, even travellers >>>returning from the conti-nontel holidays may not have any spare ones.
I have a few, but they are in my travel kit, not the car. But I do
have a middle eastern coin in my overcoat pocket which works (but I
said that already).
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens
attached so I always have one available when needed.a Be prepared and
all that.
A lovely thread about tokens for trolleys. Odd, no trolleys up here
need tokens. Maybe we are better behaved??
There are many places where it's dangerous to be. The Somerset
Midsomers and anywhere Miss Marples is staying spring to mind.
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached
so I always have one available when needed. Be prepared and all that.
In message <10jrkvo$2kcsa$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:00 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin >>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very
simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
Showoff! :-)
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. But a >friend has the other key for one of ours.
On 10/01/2026 16:08, Recliner wrote:
Thats why its so amusing that its portrayed as needing two DIs whoneed
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
Wellllll, not quite as many as Midsummer....
In message <10jth99$35368$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:39:05 on Sat, 10 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens attached
so I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared and all that.
Do you also have an Airtag (or similar) on each bunch of keys? A
technology co-invented by my GF and Roger Needham, in 2002.
Patent expired in 2022.
On Sat, 10 Jan 2026 17:59:10 +0000
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> gabbled:
On 10/01/2026 16:08, Recliner wrote:
Thats why its so amusing that its portrayed as needing two DIs whoneed
to work together on every one of the frequent murder cases!
Wellllll, not quite as many as Midsummer....
Spelt Midsomer for some odd reason.
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. But
a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't come
with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private buyer
would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll
probably find it gone a few days later.
In message <10ju3u7$3bca4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:57:27 on Sat, 10 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jrpqk$2ludg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:36 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan >>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 >>>>>>> coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
However we have three cars, and I could be using any one of them to go
to the shops.
And you canrCOt afford to keep a pound coin in each car?
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10ju3u7$3bca4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:57:27 on Sat, 10 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jrpqk$2ludg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:36 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan >>>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 >>>>>>>> coinOne of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket. >>>>>>>
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in >>>>> the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
However we have three cars, and I could be using any one of them to go >>>> to the shops.
And you canrCOt afford to keep a pound coin in each car?
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in
each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for cars with a two year service interval.
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. But
a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't come >>with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private buyer
would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll
probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite
old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever existed)
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was
still there a month later.
On 11/01/2026 10:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jth99$35368$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:39:05 on Sat, 10
Jan 2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens
attached so I always have one available when needed.a Be prepared
and all that.
Do you also have an Airtag (or similar) on each bunch of keys? A >>technology co-invented by my GF and Roger Needham, in 2002.
Patent expired in 2022.
Why do I need an Airtag on them? I thought Airtag is Apple? I live in
an Apple (and Microsoft) free zone.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:44:33 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys.
But a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't
come with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private
buyer would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll >>>probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite
old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever
existed)
They would have existed.
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was >>still there a month later.
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Apart from which whats he going to do if he loses the set he's got?
Write the car off?
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in
each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to >do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >cars with a two year service interval.
In message <10jvv03$3q22t$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:45:23 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
On 11/01/2026 10:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message <10jth99$35368$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:39:05 on Sat, 10
Jan-a 2026, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens
attached-a so I always have one available when needed.-a Be prepared
and all that.
-aDo you also have an Airtag (or similar) on each bunch of keys? A
technology co-invented by my GF and Roger Needham, in 2002.
-aPatent expired in 2022.
Why do I need an Airtag on them?-a I thought Airtag is Apple?-a I live
in an Apple (and Microsoft) free zone.
So you can find them if you've misplaced them in the house, or more drastically if you've lost them somewhere else, or had them stolen.
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:44:33 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. >>>>>But a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't
come with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private >>>>buyer would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll >>>>probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite >>>old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever
existed)
They would have existed.
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was >>>still there a month later.
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >coped.
In message <10jvvrm$3relo$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:06 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >> cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or coolant, until the next annual service.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jvvrm$3relo$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:06 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >>> cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal
stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd
commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up. Occasionally IrCOve confirmed this by looking at the visual level indicators.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:44:33 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>> 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. >>>>>> But a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't
come with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private
buyer would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll >>>>> probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite >>>> old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever
existed)
They would have existed.
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was >>>> still there a month later.
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people
coped.
The 1920s?
In message <10ju3u7$3bca4$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:57:27 on Sat, 10 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jrpqk$2ludg$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:52:36 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
Am 09.01.2026 um 17:00 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan >>>>> 2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a -u1 >>>>>>> coin
to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
This is a problem my mum solved in the mid-1980's: the token lived in
the car, next to the change for feeding the parking meter.
However we have three cars, and I could be using any one of them to go
to the shops.
And you canrCOt afford to keep a pound coin in each car?
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in each car. And adblue for the diesel.
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >coped.
Apart from which whats he going to do if he loses the set he's got?
Put an airtag on them.
Write the car off?
If all else fails, pay about u200 for a new set.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>> Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people
coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s? Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy >wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >probably overpriced.
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:44:33 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>>> 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. >>>>>>> But a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't >>>>>> come with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private >>>>>> buyer would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll >>>>>> probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite >>>>> old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever
existed)
They would have existed.
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was >>>>> still there a month later.
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people
coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s?
Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy
wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was probably overpriced.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 16:27:03 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> gabbled:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>> Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>>> coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s? Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy >> wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >> probably overpriced.
Probably the only deterrent to nicking cars back then was half the time they wouldn't start even WITH the key especially if they were british junk.
How a country that designed and built the spitfire could have produced the woeful heaps of garbage that our factories vomited up until the japs and germans took over in the 90s beats me.
Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people
coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s?
Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy wafer locks and the keys cost
about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was probably overpriced.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 16:27:03 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> gabbled:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>> Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>>> coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s? Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy >>wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >>probably overpriced.
Probably the only deterrent to nicking cars back then was half the time they >wouldn't start even WITH the key especially if they were british junk.
How a country that designed and built the spitfire could have produced the >woeful heaps of garbage that our factories vomited up until the japs and >germans took over in the 90s beats me.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan >>2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>coped.
I'm not sure what era you're talking about but even my parents cars back
in the 80s had 2 sets of keys.
If you're refering to Model-T fords then maybe not.
Apart from which whats he going to do if he loses the set he's got?
Put an airtag on them.
Thats not the solution you seem to think it is.
Write the car off?
If all else fails, pay about u200 for a new set.
Not that simple if its an oldish car. The software to interrogate the ECU and >program a new fob may not be available in many garages or even main dealerships
plus if it has an actual key they'll need to replace the barrel too. Thats >once he's had it towed to whoever can do it of course which isn't free either.
I have three sets of keys and they all have removable tokens >>>>>attacheda so I always have one available when needed.a Be prepared >>>>>and all that.
aDo you also have an Airtag (or similar) on each bunch of keys? A >>>>technology co-invented by my GF and Roger Needham, in 2002.
aPatent expired in 2022.
Why do I need an Airtag on them?a I thought Airtag is Apple?a I live
in an Apple (and Microsoft) free zone.
So you can find them if you've misplaced them in the house, or more >>drastically if you've lost them somewhere else, or had them stolen.
In all of my 53 years of driving I have never misplaced or lost my keys
nor had them stolen.
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in
each car. And adblue for the diesel.
But yourCOd only have to do it once - pop a -u1 in a suitable place in the car >(some cars have places specifically designed for holding coins) and itrCOs >there when you need it.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jvvrm$3relo$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:06 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >>> cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal
stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd
commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up.
Occasionally IrCOve confirmed this by looking at the visual level >indicators.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >>>> cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal
stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd
commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up. Occasionally IrCOve >> confirmed this by looking at the visual level indicators.
A couple of years ago my modern car (2019 Skoda) decided to start using up >coolant. I noticed when the warning light came on. I never found any sign >of a leak, had to top it up a couple of times, and after a couple of months >it stopped using coolant again, so now I have a half-full bottle of coolant >in the back of the car.
In message <10k097e$3u6ah$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:39:58 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jvvrm$3relo$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:06 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's >>>>> just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for >>>> cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal
stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd
commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up.
Lucky you. Perhaps you should demand your money back (for the cost of fitting the sensors).
Occasionally IrCOve confirmed this by looking at the visual level
indicators.
You are in a tiny minority of the general public, by doing that.
In message <10k0j0p$1ctd$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:05 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
But yourCOd only have to do it once - pop a -u1 in a suitable place in
the car
(some cars have places specifically designed for holding coins) and itrCOs >> there when you need it.
It's not putting it there once which is the issue. You have to remember
to replace it there after every single time you go shopping.
In message <m4d4mklal009m33toi720oo7utj2f6535k@4ax.com>, at 11:15:35 on
Sat, 10 Jan 2026, Trolleybus <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
On Fri, 9 Jan 2026 14:15:40 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:That's very common. First place I encountered it was York. Annoyingly >>Cambridge's solution to this problem seems to be to close loos that
In message <10jr0l3$235o8$3@dont-email.me>, at 14:42:59 on Fri, 9 JanEven thatAs changing. In rural Luss on the banks of Loch Lomand the public >>>loos had a card reader. Things are changing very rapidly.
2026, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
ObGoatherder: almost always in cash (ie coins), here in UK.Their strapline should be DonAt pee at StP.
At least they were always free of charge (allegedly because of the >>>>>> Champagne bar requiring free toilets nearby)
This challenge is usually "solved" in Germany by charging for the loo >>>>
still require cash.
That might be because the design they long ago implemented which
triggered this has a separate outside door for each cubicle. Not just
one turnstile at an entrance. So you need multiple coin/card mechanisms
per installation.
On Sat, 10 Jan 2026 08:37:14 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jrkvo$2kcsa$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:30:00 on Fri, 9 Jan >>2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jr7km$2fnod$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:42:15 on Fri, 9 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Which reminds me, almost every supermarket I go to requires a u1 coin >>>>>> to release a trolley, although I often don't have one so use a very >>>>>> simialarly sized foreign coin which lives in my overcoat pocket.
One of our local car dealerships hands out key rings with a
pound-coin-sized metal token attached.
I've got one such token holder. But five bunches of car keys...
Showoff! :-)
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. But a >>friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't come with 2 >sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private buyer would have to be >insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll probably find it gone a few >days later.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10k097e$3u6ah$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:39:58 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10jvvrm$3relo$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:00:06 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>> 2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's >>>>>> just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of >>>>>> de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had >>>>>need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for
cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal >>>> stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd >>>> commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up.
Lucky you. Perhaps you should demand your money back (for the cost of
fitting the sensors).
Occasionally IrCOve confirmed this by looking at the visual level
indicators.
You are in a tiny minority of the general public, by doing that.
DonrCOt be silly. The sensors are useful for fault detection, such as the >coolant system springing a leak.
But this, again, is straying away from the original point that (decent) >modern cars donrCOt need coolant and oil topping up between services.
Am 12.01.2026 um 10:02 schrieb Roland Perry:
In message <10k0j0p$1ctd$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:05 on Sun, 11 Jan >>2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But
it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
But yourCOd only have to do it once - pop a -u1 in a suitable place
in the car (some cars have places specifically designed for holding >>>coins) and itrCOs there when you need it.
It's not putting it there once which is the issue. You have to
remember to replace it there after every single time you go shopping.
Excuse me, you bring back the trolley to the collection point, remove
the "coin", so you need to put it somewhere.
My mum's variant is you keep it in your hand until you're back in the car.
My version it to put it into the wallet (but this relies on the
existence of a wallet with coin area - which is what you want to get
rid of becoming cash-less).
A third option (my past version) is that the "coin" is attached to your >house keys; this is only meaningful if you have one set of house keys >separate from your varying sets of car keys (with the inherent danger
of leaving the house without the house keys).
In message <10k0j0n$1ctd$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:03 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people
coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s?
Probably not, unless just for the doors/boot. But then our reclining
friend always has had a blind spot for history.
A third option (my past version) is that the "coin" is attached to your >>house keys; this is only meaningful if you have one set of house keys >>separate from your varying sets of car keys (with the inherent danger
of leaving the house without the house keys).
Not many houses these days have those old-fashioned Yale locks which
don't need a key when you leave the house.
In message <10k0j0p$1ctd$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:05 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
But yourCOd only have to do it once - pop a -u1 in a suitable place in the car
(some cars have places specifically designed for holding coins) and itrCOs >> there when you need it.
It's not putting it there once which is the issue. You have to remember
to replace it there after every single time you go shopping.
In message <10k0ina$1a48$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:22:02 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Topping up oil and coolant. How quaint. I donrCOt think IrCOve had the need to
do that in the last two decades, in either petrol or diesel cars. Even for
cars with a two year service interval.
Modern, like I have (despite deliberate misinformation from my personal >>>> stalker, I'm sure she'll be chipping in soon with their frankly absurd >>>> commentary), monitor both with sensors, and I like to appease them.
In the past you'd have blithely driven the car with either low oil or
coolant, until the next annual service.
My cars have sensors and have never demanded topping up. Occasionally IrCOve
confirmed this by looking at the visual level indicators.
A couple of years ago my modern car (2019 Skoda) decided to start using up >> coolant. I noticed when the warning light came on. I never found any sign >> of a leak, had to top it up a couple of times, and after a couple of months >> it stopped using coolant again, so now I have a half-full bottle of coolant >> in the back of the car.
Same here. I think the mechanism involved is that the coolant expands
and escapes through a safety valve (perhaps in very hot weather), then
when it cools the resulting level is low enough to trigger the sensor.
In message <10k0j0n$1ctd$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:03 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy wafer locks and the keys cost
about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was probably overpriced.
The main change I remember was when "steering column locks" became a
thing (1971). One of my cars still has that, and it's only ten years
old, although the central locking uses a fob.
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>
In message <10k00do$3rk4i$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:09:44 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>> 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:44:33 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> gabbled:
In message <10jvtiu$3qps9$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:21:18 on Sun, 11 Jan >>>>>> 2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
When I get a car a red line for me is not having two sets of keys. >>>>>>>> But a friend has the other key for one of ours.
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't >>>>>>> come with 2 sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private >>>>>>> buyer would have to be insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll >>>>>>> probably find it gone a few days later.
Not true. A friend recently bought a secondhand car (admittedly quite >>>>>> old) and it only had one set of keys. The others (had they ever
existed)
They would have existed.
being lost years ago. They parked at the back of my house, and it was >>>>>> still there a month later.
Then he's an idiot who got lucky.
Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>>> coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s?
I believe thatrCOs when car ignition keys became widespread, having been invented in 1910. Door locks came in during the 20s.
Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy
wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >> probably overpriced.
I think, back then, you needed multiple keys for the door, boot and
ignition, and they had to be inserted the correct way. Combining them all into one reversible key was regarded as a major innovation.
Of course, along the way, the valet key came in.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10k0j0n$1ctd$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:03 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy wafer locks and the keys cost
about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was probably overpriced.
The main change I remember was when "steering column locks" became a
thing (1971). One of my cars still has that, and it's only ten years
old, although the central locking uses a fob.
Same for our 2019 car (though the design is older than that). I think our second car, a G-reg, first edition Austin Maxi, had a steering lock.
Sam
In message <10k0j9c$1g6a$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:31:40 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 16:27:03 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> gabbled:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>>> Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>>>> coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s? Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy >>>wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >>>probably overpriced.
Probably the only deterrent to nicking cars back then was half the time they >>wouldn't start even WITH the key especially if they were british junk.
How a country that designed and built the spitfire could have produced the >>woeful heaps of garbage that our factories vomited up until the japs and >>germans took over in the 90s beats me.
The main reason was that all the most talented engineers were still
working on defence projects (largely aircraft based), not cars.
Meanwhile, the Germans and Japanese were prevented from having a
domestic defence industry.
In message <10k0j9c$1g6a$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:31:40 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 16:27:03 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> gabbled:
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 11:42:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>>> Rubbish. Back in the day all cars only had one set of keys, and people >>>>> coped.
The 1920s?
Did cars have keys in the 1920s? Anyway back in the 1960s cars had crappy >>>wafer locks and the keys cost about 2 bob to get new ones cut, and that was >>>probably overpriced.
Probably the only deterrent to nicking cars back then was half the time they >>wouldn't start even WITH the key especially if they were british junk.
How a country that designed and built the spitfire could have produced the >>woeful heaps of garbage that our factories vomited up until the japs and >>germans took over in the 90s beats me.
The main reason was that all the most talented engineers were still
working on defence projects (largely aircraft based), not cars.
Meanwhile, the Germans and Japanese were prevented from having a
domestic defence industry.
In message <10k0j17$1d12$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:19 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, boltar@caprica.universe remarked:
I'm not sure what era you're talking about but even my parents cars back
in the 80s had 2 sets of keys.
That's post steering column locks, so more people would have equipped >themselves with a second set.
If you're refering to Model-T fords then maybe not.
<Yawn>
Thats not the solution you seem to think it is.
Why not? If you've misplaced they keys they are very useful, and if the
keys are stolen then criminals tend to be a bit thick, and not all of
them will immediately discard the tag.
My GF had her bag stolen from a train near Gatwick, and we tracked it
all the way to the perp's house, where the tag stayed live for many
days. Sadly, the police weren't interested in the information.
Not that simple if its an oldish car. The software to interrogate the ECU and >>program a new fob may not be available in many garages or even main >dealerships
plus if it has an actual key they'll need to replace the barrel too. Thats >>once he's had it towed to whoever can do it of course which isn't free either.
Not the story that people who supply such u200 replacement keys tell.
They just want the car's chassis? number, and proof you are the owner.
On Sun, 11 Jan 2026 10:21:18 -0000 (UTC), boltar@caprica.universe
wrote:
No reputable dealer will buy or part exchange a car if it doesn't come with 2
sets of keys with it for obvious reasons and a private buyer would have to be >>insane to buy a car with only 1 set as they'll probably find it gone a few >>days later.
I was on an XC train once and thought I heard something fall to the
ground. I never found anything. When I got back to Audley End I had no
car key.
I managed with just one for at least seven years until my local garage
told me that the car would not pass another MOT. I then discovered
that nobody was able to replace the fob other than the manufaturer,
Toyota. They wanted over u600 plus a reprogramming fee.
The lack of a second key made no difference to the trade-in value, but
I'd be reluctant to buy such a car with only one key.
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected >(and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >attacks.
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 13:24:52 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> gabbled:
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected
(and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >> attacks.
One of those bloody obvious things some of the many security "experts" should have thought of years ago. Though requiring an actual physical key too would also be a good idea but god forbid manufacturers should spend an extra few quid on an ignition barrel these days.
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 13:24:52 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> gabbled:
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected >>> (and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >>> attacks.
One of those bloody obvious things some of the many security "experts" should
have thought of years ago. Though requiring an actual physical key too would >> also be a good idea but god forbid manufacturers should spend an extra few >> quid on an ignition barrel these days.
An ignition switch is just a set of contacts. Thieves can easily bypass
that. These are the folk who will remove a headlight to access the CAN bus.
A key fob that talks in an encrypted fashion to the onboard computer is harder to crack. A key fob that goes to sleep does seem to be an obvious solution that should have been implemented years ago.
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 13:24:52 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> gabbled:
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected >>> (and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >>> attacks.
One of those bloody obvious things some of the many security "experts" should
have thought of years ago. Though requiring an actual physical key too would >> also be a good idea but god forbid manufacturers should spend an extra few >> quid on an ignition barrel these days.
An ignition switch is just a set of contacts. Thieves can easily bypass
that. These are the folk who will remove a headlight to access the CAN bus.
<boltar@caprica.universe> wrote:
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 13:24:52 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> gabbled:
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected >>> (and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >>> attacks.
One of those bloody obvious things some of the many security "experts" should
have thought of years ago. Though requiring an actual physical key too would >> also be a good idea but god forbid manufacturers should spend an extra few >> quid on an ignition barrel these days.
An ignition switch is just a set of contacts. Thieves can easily bypass
that. These are the folk who will remove a headlight to access the CAN bus.
On Mon, 12 Jan 2026 10:10:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:
A third option (my past version) is that the "coin" is attached to your >>>house keys; this is only meaningful if you have one set of house keys >>>separate from your varying sets of car keys (with the inherent danger
of leaving the house without the house keys).
Not many houses these days have those old-fashioned Yale locks which
don't need a key when you leave the house.
My new door doesn't have a traditional Yale cylinder lock but you
certainly don't need a key to lock it behind you. That's still normal.
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
In message <10k0j0p$1ctd$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:27:05 on Sun, 11 Jan
2026, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
I'd put one of my foreign pound-coin-sized ones in each car. But it's
just something else to have to remember to do. Like having cans of
de-icer, the right sort of oil, and antifreeze to top up the coolant, in >>>> each car. And adblue for the diesel.
But yourCOd only have to do it once - pop a -u1 in a suitable place in the car
(some cars have places specifically designed for holding coins) and itrCOs >>> there when you need it.
It's not putting it there once which is the issue. You have to remember
to replace it there after every single time you go shopping.
I donrCOt see why thatrCOs a hassle, but YMMV.
Of course, along the way, the valet key came in.
I hadnrCOt come across that concept before - I clearly move in the wrong >strata of society - but it makes sense.
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected >(and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >attacks.
In message <10k2sn4$2c0nt$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:24:52 on Mon, 12 Jan
2026, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
Ford have now made their key fobs go to sleep if movement is not detected
(and of course the engine isnrCOt running) to mitigate against radio relay >> attacks.
My Evoque does that, very annoying. If I unlock the car, then go back
inside to collect something (which I don't want to put down in a puddle
next to the car while I find and operate the fob again), by the time I
get back it's often locked itself.
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