• TV Licensing

    From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Feb 23 16:07:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?
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  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Feb 24 08:04:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Feb 24 19:19:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.
    --
    PA
    --


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    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 00:31:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    I assume that entering a negative sum wouldn't work?
    Has anyone tried?
    --
    Sam Plusnet

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 08:29:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    At least statistically, that's unlikely.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 09:22:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 08:29, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    At least statistically, that's unlikely.


    I submit

    https://ibb.co/8DzYcYJ2

    to

    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/telling-us-you-dont-need-a-tv-licence

    every time I receive TVL correspondence.
    --
    PA
    --


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    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
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  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 10:27:18 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in the
    yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 09:30:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 09:22, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    At least statistically, that's unlikely.


    I submit

    https://ibb.co/8DzYcYJ2

    to

    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/telling-us- you-dont-need-a-tv-licence

    every time I receive TVL correspondence.

    What do you do with all those screens in your house then?

    You see, self-certification is not regarded as 100% reliable.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 11:15:19 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent shooting
    parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 09:38:47 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since November)
    become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used the
    iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    At least statistically, that's unlikely.

    One's debt - if any - to the BBC's Tax department is not calculated statistically. It falls to be calculated on the basis of empirically determined fact, surely?

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 17:48:51 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a
    number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Feb 25 18:46:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 17:48, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    What is something that is 'in principle' true?


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 10:14:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?


    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    I've not been threatened like this before. Perhaps it is a bad case of TLS?

    Trump Litigation Syndrome.
    --
    PA
    --


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 10:49:58 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 25/02/2026 18:46, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 17:48, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a
    number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training
    in the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    What is something that is 'in principle' true?


    I did not in fact have a bull...


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 10:45:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used the
    iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly, which means you need a licence.

    In any case, a licence is required for more than is stated in (b) above.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 12:32:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 10:49, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 18:46, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 17:48, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that
    they were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended
    making an appointment as the address is a farm property complete
    with dogs in the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and
    frequent shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were
    a number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student
    training in the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    What is something that is 'in principle' true?


    I did not in fact have a bull...

    Or any of the rest?



    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 12:02:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:

    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used the
    iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?
    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct. For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the
    iPlayer S4C-specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than
    to watch, Download or Record programme material

    which means you need a licence.

    No you don't.

    In any case, a licence is required for more than is stated in (b) above.

    No it isn't


    PA
    --
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    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 14:46:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 12:32, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:49, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 18:46, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 17:48, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that
    they were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended
    making an appointment as the address is a farm property complete
    with dogs in the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and >>>>>> frequent shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were
    a number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student
    training in the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    What is something that is 'in principle' true?


    I did not in fact have a bull...

    Or any of the rest?



    Oh the rest was true. Just to clarify the original issue - your internet
    or broadcast receiver will carry on working, irrespective of any
    paperwork...

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 15:16:41 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 12:02, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used
    the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct.

    So, what you said is just misleading.

    For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the
    iPlayer S4C-specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than
    to watch, Download or Record programme material

    iPlayer exists to do just those things and, as far as I'm aware, does
    nothing else.

    So, using iPlayer at all, apart from watching S4C on catch-up (ie not
    live or as live), which seems a rather isolated existence, requires a
    licence.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as regards
    any programmes made for television.

    Then we'll be able to have a better idea of whether you need a licence.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Simon Parker@simonparkerulm@gmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 17:24:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    I will respectfully remind all posters to the thread that the charter expressly forbids implying that another contributor is dishonest.

    Therefore, do not be surprised if a post implying that another
    contributor is acting dishonestly gets rejected.

    Regards

    S.P.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 16:27:48 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 15:16, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 12:02, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used
    the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct.

    So, what you said is just misleading.

    What "what you said"?


    For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the iPlayer
    S4C-specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than to
    watch, Download or Record programme material

    iPlayer exists to do just those things and, as far as I'm aware, does nothing else.

    As far as you're aware, Norman.


    So, using iPlayer at all, apart from watching S4C on catch-up (ie not
    live or as live), which seems a rather isolated existence, requires a licence.

    In your opinion, Norman. Personally, I've found it very easy, and very liberating, to give up all activities which demand a Television Licence.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as regards
    any programmes made for television.

    You seem to have a very comprehensive knowledge of my circumstances -
    yet little with regard to legislation regarding TV licensing - or is it
    that you are just a troll?

    Then we'll be able to have a better idea of whether you need a licence.

    I've already done that:

    https://ibb.co/8DzYcYJ2

    And the reply from TVL is:

    "Based on your answers, it looks like you don't need a TV Licence"
    --
    PA
    --


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

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  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 26 18:58:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 16:27, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 15:16, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 12:02, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since >>>>>>>>>> November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used >>>>>> the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct.

    So, what you said is just misleading.

    What "what you said"?

    It's all there above.

    For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the iPlayer S4C-
    specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than to watch,
    Download or Record programme material

    iPlayer exists to do just those things and, as far as I'm aware, does
    nothing else.

    As far as you're aware, Norman.

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?

    So, using iPlayer at all, apart from watching S4C on catch-up (ie not
    live or as live), which seems a rather isolated existence, requires a
    licence.

    In your opinion, Norman.

    No, it's not 'in my opinion' but the legal fact of the matter.

    Personally, I've found it very easy, and very
    liberating, to give up all activities which demand a Television Licence.

    So you say. What we were trying to establish, though, is whether you
    have succeeded.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.

    You seem to have a very comprehensive knowledge of my circumstances

    Not so. I wouldn't have asked what I did if I had. Would you care to
    tell us now please?
    -
    yet little with regard to legislation regarding TV licensing

    Hardly. Everything I've said here has been based on the licensing law.

    - or is it that you are just a troll?

    I think those who don't and won't answer simple relevant questions fit
    that designation rather more than me.

    Then we'll be able to have a better idea of whether you need a licence.

    I've already done that:

    https://ibb.co/8DzYcYJ2

    And the reply from TVL is:

    "Based on your answers, it looks like you don't need a TV Licence"

    'Based on your answers' to them, of course it does.






    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 11:34:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2/26/26 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:
    O

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?



    iPlayer is a normal website. If you look at the BBC News website it has
    links that take you to iPlayer without you intending it. I don't think
    it lets you play stuff without registering, but it lets you look at what
    is available.




    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 11:30:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2/26/26 15:16, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 12:02, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used
    the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct.

    So, what you said is just misleading.

    For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the iPlayer S4C-
    specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than to watch,
    Download or Record programme material

    iPlayer exists to do just those things and, as far as I'm aware, does nothing else.

    So, using iPlayer at all, apart from watching S4C on catch-up (ie not
    live or as live), which seems a rather isolated existence, requires a licence.


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation to
    get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it once was.


    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as regards
    any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright violation,
    but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay, make
    that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service out of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by subscription or adverts.



    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 11:47:21 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 26/02/2026 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 16:27, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 15:16, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 12:02, Peter Able wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:45, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 26/02/2026 10:14, Peter Able wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 09:38, JNugent wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 08:29 am, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:

    Received 20th February:
    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9
    When does this (four such harassing letters received since >>>>>>>>>>> November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.

    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an >>>>>>>>> attempt to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    On what basis do you say you owe them nothing?

    Only two possibilities there:

    (a) He has already bought a BBC Tax "licence"

    (b) He has not watched (at home) any broadcast television or used >>>>>>> the iPlayer.

    Is there a third?

    The answer is, basically, (b) - since the end of August 2021.

    What do you mean 'basically'?

    That word implies not absolutely wholly,

    Correct.

    So, what you said is just misleading.

    What "what you said"?

    It's all there above.

    For example a comprehensive (b) would have mentioned the iPlayer
    S4C- specific exemption and the right to use iPlayer other than to
    watch, Download or Record programme material

    iPlayer exists to do just those things and, as far as I'm aware, does
    nothing else.

    As far as you're aware, Norman.

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?

    So, using iPlayer at all, apart from watching S4C on catch-up (ie not
    live or as live), which seems a rather isolated existence, requires a
    licence.

    In your opinion, Norman.

    No, it's not 'in my opinion' but the legal fact of the matter.

    Personally, I've found it very easy, and very liberating, to give up
    all activities which demand a Television Licence.

    So you say.-a What we were trying to establish, though, is whether you
    have succeeded.

    I have indeed, Norman; and I've had no withdrawal symptoms at all.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.

    You seem to have a very comprehensive knowledge of my circumstances

    Not so.-a I wouldn't have asked what I-a did if I had.-a Would you care to tell us now please?
    -a-
    yet little with regard to legislation regarding TV licensing

    Hardly.-a Everything I've said here has been based on the licensing law.

    - or is it that you are just a troll?

    I think those who don't and won't answer simple relevant questions fit
    that designation rather more than me.

    Then we'll be able to have a better idea of whether you need a licence.

    I've already done that:

    https://ibb.co/8DzYcYJ2

    And the reply from TVL is:

    "Based on your answers, it looks like you don't need a TV Licence"

    'Based on your answers' to them, of course it does.

    It seems to me that you do not have a full understanding of the relevant legislation - and I am not the one who will be able to change that.

    So, end of thread.
    --
    PA
    --


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 13:05:28 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation to
    get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright violation,
    but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that? If not, why not?

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay, make
    that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service out of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by subscription or adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.

    Anything else, like some sport for example?

    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present? If not, it
    seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence fee is abolished.


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 12:56:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 11:34, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/26/26 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:


    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?

    iPlayer is a normal website. If you look at the BBC News website it has links that take you to iPlayer without you intending it. I don't think
    it lets you play stuff without registering, but it lets you look at what
    is available.

    You can register very easily anonymously.

    It also asks, rather ridiculously, whether a potential user has a TV
    licence. I can't imagine anyone without one being honest enough to
    answer no. Can you?


    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Martin Harran@martinharran@gmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 13:35:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a >number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 20:54:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 13:35, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt >>>>> to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a
    number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    No, you could work with a signal generator or a test card generator, or
    just modulate some RF from a normal video signal, or you could simply
    declare yourself as a dealer, but then you would be expected to be an
    unpaid grass on your customers!

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 15:16:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 11:34 am, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/26/26 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:
    O

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?



    iPlayer is a normal website. If you look at the BBC News website it has links that take you to iPlayer without you intending it. I don't think
    it lets you play stuff without registering, but it lets you look at what
    is available.

    Anything from BBC TV is accessible only after clicking to say that you
    have a "TV licence" (ie, that you have paid the BBC Tax).

    I'm not sure whether the same applies to BBC Sounds (effectively the
    iPlayer for radio, for which one does not need a "licence").

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Feb 27 21:09:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 20:54, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 13:35, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt >>>>>> to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they >>>>> were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an
    appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in
    the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a
    number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    No, you could work with a signal generator or a test card generator, or
    just modulate some RF from a normal video signal,

    Does that count as 'radio technology'? It doesn't seem like it to me.




    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 00:30:27 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2/27/26 13:05, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation
    to get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing
    anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it
    once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their
    own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright
    violation, but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that?-a If not, why not?


    Whether I care or not isn't pertinent to the need for a TVL.

    FWIW, I'm ambivalent. The justifications for copyright are very complex.
    I'm really not qualified to comment on the reasonableness of the current system.

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay, make
    that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service out
    of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by subscription or
    adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.


    It's a webpage. If it is free I read it, but I read the BBC less and
    less each year.

    Anything else, like some sport for example?


    Sport is something to do, not to watch. If I really wanted to watch live
    sport I could go and watch it at a pub, but I don't.
    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present?-a If not, it
    seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence fee is abolished.


    I never watch live. What is important about live, as opposed to one hour
    old?

    I would like not to get a threatening letter every month. Plus, I could
    use a good cheap public information service,

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 00:18:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 01:05 pm, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation
    to get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing
    anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it
    once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided so
    far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their
    own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright
    violation, but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that?-a If not, why not?

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay, make
    that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service out
    of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by subscription or
    adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.

    Reading the BBC News website (or app) does not require possession of a
    BBC Tax "licence".

    Anything else, like some sport for example?

    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present?-a If not, it
    seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence fee is abolished.




    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 11:18:38 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 15:16, JNugent wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:34 am, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/26/26 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:
    O

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?



    iPlayer is a normal website. If you look at the BBC News website it
    has links that take you to iPlayer without you intending it. I don't
    think it lets you play stuff without registering, but it lets you look
    at what is available.

    Anything from BBC TV is accessible only after clicking to say that you
    have a "TV licence" (ie, that you have paid the BBC Tax).

    I'm not sure whether the same applies to BBC Sounds (effectively the
    iPlayer for radio, for which one does not need a "licence").


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/about-bbc-sounds-and-our-policies/radio-tv-licence


    "Do I need a TV licence to listen to BBC radio online?

    "You don't need a TV licence to use BBC Sounds. The law applies to
    watching and downloading TV programmes, including via BBC iPlayer."


    So, No.
    --
    PA
    --


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 16:31:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 27/02/2026 21:09, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 20:54, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 13:35, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since
    November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an attempt >>>>>>> to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they >>>>>> were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an >>>>>> appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in >>>>>> the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a >>>> number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student training in >>>> the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    No, you could work with a signal generator or a test card generator,
    or just modulate some RF from a normal video signal,

    Does that count as 'radio technology'?-a It doesn't seem like it to me.




    As an electronics engineer, I can assure you that it does!


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro@jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 16:40:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Sat, 28 Feb 2026 11:18:38 +0000, Peter Able wrote:

    On 27/02/2026 15:16, JNugent wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:34 am, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/26/26 18:58, Norman Wells wrote:
    O

    Why have you got iPlayer if you have, and for what do you use it?



    iPlayer is a normal website. If you look at the BBC News website it
    has links that take you to iPlayer without you intending it. I don't
    think it lets you play stuff without registering, but it lets you look
    at what is available.

    Anything from BBC TV is accessible only after clicking to say that you
    have a "TV licence" (ie, that you have paid the BBC Tax).

    I'm not sure whether the same applies to BBC Sounds (effectively the
    iPlayer for radio, for which one does not need a "licence").


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/help/questions/about-bbc-sounds-and-our-
    policies/radio-tv-licence


    "Do I need a TV licence to listen to BBC radio online?

    "You don't need a TV licence to use BBC Sounds. The law applies to
    watching and downloading TV programmes, including via BBC iPlayer."


    So, No.

    But you should be paid for the exquisite pain of using such a shitty
    "app".

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 15:02:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 28/02/2026 00:30, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/27/26 13:05, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation
    to get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing
    anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it
    once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided
    so far, just what you use all the screens at the premises (including
    phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) for as
    regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their
    own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright
    violation, but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that?-a If not, why not?


    Whether I care or not isn't pertinent to the need for a TVL.

    FWIW, I'm ambivalent. The justifications for copyright are very complex.
    I'm really not qualified to comment on the reasonableness of the current system.

    How very convenient! It means in your own mind you're free to do
    whatever you want.

    But the justification for copyright is not in the least complex. It
    boils down to this: why should you be free to use the creative efforts
    of others, whose livelihoods may well depend on them, for free and
    without even a by-your-leave?

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay,
    make that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service out
    of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by subscription or
    adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.

    It's a webpage. If it is free I read it, but I read the BBC less and
    less each year.

    So, why do you want a 'cheap simple information service' provided out of taxation? It seems from what you self-certify that you manage perfectly
    well without it and don't need it at all.

    Anything else, like some sport for example?

    Sport is something to do, not to watch. If I really wanted to watch live sport I could go and watch it at a pub, but I don't.

    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present?-a If not, it
    seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence fee is
    abolished.

    I never watch live. What is important about live, as opposed to one hour old?

    A lot of people like immediacy.

    I would like not to get a threatening letter every month. Plus, I could
    use a good cheap public information service,

    Which you want everyone else to pay for.



    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 16:52:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 28/02/2026 16:31, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 21:09, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 20:54, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 13:35, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since >>>>>>>>>> November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an
    attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that they >>>>>>> were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an >>>>>>> appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in >>>>>>> the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent
    shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there were a >>>>> number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student
    training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    No, you could work with a signal generator or a test card generator,
    or just modulate some RF from a normal video signal,

    Does that count as 'radio technology'?-a It doesn't seem like it to me.

    As an electronics engineer, I can assure you that it does!

    Normally, however, regardless of what he *could* do, a repairer or
    trainer of others would not restrict himself in that way, would he? He
    would want to ensure that the TV receivers were actually capable of
    receiving broadcast signals which is what they are almost invariably
    used for.

    If I were an inspector, I'd be thinking it very likely that the farm had
    a cockerel to go with the bull.




    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Les. Hayward@les@nospam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Feb 28 23:12:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 28/02/2026 16:52, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 16:31, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 21:09, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 20:54, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 13:35, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Wed, 25 Feb 2026 17:48:51 +0000, "Les. Hayward"
    <les@nospam.invalid> wrote:

    On 25/02/2026 11:15, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 25/02/2026 10:27, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 19:19, Peter Able wrote:
    On 24/02/2026 08:04, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 23/02/2026 16:07, Peter Able wrote:
    Received 20th February:

    https://ibb.co/7trHykC9

    When does this (four such harassing letters received since >>>>>>>>>>> November) become unlawful?

    When you pay them what you owe, probably.


    I suspect that any electronic payment system would reject an >>>>>>>>> attempt
    to execute a payment of -u0.00.

    Some years back, I found it profitable to mail them to say that >>>>>>>> they
    were welcome to come and inspect my gaff, but recommended making an >>>>>>>> appointment as the address is a farm property complete with dogs in >>>>>>>> the yard, an aggressive bull, exposed silage pits and frequent >>>>>>>> shooting parties.

    They never took up my offer...

    Should they always believe such dog and bull stories though?


    Well, in principle it was genuine info! I also added that there
    were a
    number of TV receivers around, either for repair or student
    training in
    the field of radio technology (which was entirely true.)

    Does that work not require switching the receivers on and checking
    that they are receiving service?

    No, you could work with a signal generator or a test card generator,
    or just modulate some RF from a normal video signal,

    Does that count as 'radio technology'?-a It doesn't seem like it to me.

    As an electronics engineer, I can assure you that it does!

    Normally, however, regardless of what he *could* do, a repairer or
    trainer of others would not restrict himself in that way, would he?-a He would want to ensure that the TV receivers were actually capable of receiving broadcast signals which is what they are almost invariably
    used for.

    If I were an inspector, I'd be thinking it very likely that the farm had
    a cockerel to go with the bull.




    I am of the opinion that your continued input to the debate is entirely vexatious. I therefore withdraw from it.

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 10:45:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2/28/26 15:02, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 00:30, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/27/26 13:05, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal obligation
    to get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was missing
    anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared to what it
    once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided
    so far, just what you use all the screens at the premises
    (including phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders etc) >>>>> for as regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing their
    own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright
    violation, but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that?-a If not, why not?


    Whether I care or not isn't pertinent to the need for a TVL.

    FWIW, I'm ambivalent. The justifications for copyright are very
    complex. I'm really not qualified to comment on the reasonableness of
    the current system.

    How very convenient!-a It means in your own mind you're free to do
    whatever you want.


    I'm not convinced in the justification for individuals to amass huge
    fortunes. Unfortunately this belief doesn't mean I'm free to withdraw
    money from Elon Musk's bank account.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the type of contemptible fellow who
    would help myself to a bit of Elon's cash, if I could, consequence free.
    To avoid further debate, I would not take money from a poor beggar in
    the street. I'm not sure where I would draw the line, but I would draw it.

    I thought we were discussing the TVL. You were making an argument that
    people who don't have licences must be doing so in breach of TVL
    requirements. I was just pointing out why this was no longer the case. Pointing out that there was a huge amount of exempt content out there.
    The fact that you or I may disapprove of that content does not change
    the fact that it doesn't require a TVL. For clarity, I don't actually
    use all these content sources myself.


    But the justification for copyright is not in the least complex.-a It
    boils down to this: why should you be free to use the creative efforts
    of others, whose livelihoods may well depend on them, for free and
    without even a by-your-leave?


    Defending their creative efforts for at least 70 years after they are dead?

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay,
    make that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service
    out of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by
    subscription or adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.

    It's a webpage. If it is free I read it, but I read the BBC less and
    less each year.

    So, why do you want a 'cheap simple information service' provided out of taxation?-a It seems from what you self-certify that you manage perfectly well without it and don't need it at all.


    That is one of the purposes of government. To organise community
    services: roads, education, health, defence.

    Some TV content benefits the nation, health care, election manifestos, education, exposure of misinformation. Services that are not
    commercially viable. These services aren't necessarily expensive. The
    BBC made the mistake of trying to compete with the private sector for
    audience share. Paying celebrities huge salaries to boost audience. The current BBC budget is bloated.


    Anything else, like some sport for example?

    Sport is something to do, not to watch. If I really wanted to watch
    live sport I could go and watch it at a pub, but I don't.

    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present?-a If not, it
    seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence fee is
    abolished.

    I never watch live. What is important about live, as opposed to one
    hour old?

    A lot of people like immediacy.


    Possibly, but why do they care? It seems to me the broadcast TV
    emphasised live delivery, because it was an inherent characteristic of
    the service. In real life, people like to chose when to watch.

    I would like not to get a threatening letter every month. Plus, I
    could use a good cheap public information service,

    Which you want everyone else to pay for.


    Well, I like roads, hospitals, too. Your argument seemed to be that
    almost everyone required a TVL, in which case the most efficient way of funding it is via general taxation. Administering the TVL separately
    costs money, so why bother?


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 10:37:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 28/02/2026 23:12, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 16:52, Norman Wells wrote:

    If I were an inspector, I'd be thinking it very likely that the farm
    had a cockerel to go with the bull.

    I am of the opinion that your continued input to the debate is entirely vexatious. I therefore withdraw from it.

    Without making any personal allegations whatsoever, and just speaking generally, it is my view that most of those who do not pay for a
    television licence do in fact need one.

    I do not accept that there are many in this country who genuinely do not
    ever watch any television programmes or items live or as live whether on
    a TV, their phones, tablets or other computers, even briefly or rarely.
    There may be some, isolated instances, don't get me wrong, but I think
    most who complain or self-congratulatingly say they don't or won't pay
    just regard it as a 'BBC tax' and, because they may genuinely not watch
    any BBC material, think it unnecessary and/or unfair. Maybe they think
    they don't need to, or vainly see themselves as heroes and people's
    champions standing up against oppression.

    They're all wrong of course. Even brief or sporadic viewing of any live
    TV on any channel requires a licence. And that applies because it is
    the law, regardless of whether they think that law reasonable or not.

    Those who self-certify by answering a few questions with obvious answers online clearly think that's a good wheeze and a simple way to get out of paying. And they may be smugly gratified by being told on the basis of
    the answers supplied it would appear they don't need a licence.
    However, they should be aware that any false statements made in that way undeniably constitute serious criminal offences under Section 2 of the
    Fraud Act 2006 and would be rather hard to weasel out of.





    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Fredxx@fredxx@spam.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 11:48:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 01/03/2026 10:37, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 23:12, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 16:52, Norman Wells wrote:

    If I were an inspector, I'd be thinking it very likely that the farm
    had a cockerel to go with the bull.

    I am of the opinion that your continued input to the debate is
    entirely vexatious. I therefore withdraw from it.

    Without making any personal allegations whatsoever, and just speaking generally, it is my view that most of those who do not pay for a
    television licence do in fact need one.

    While I am certain you are indeed correct, I can think of a friend who
    doesn't have a TV and the only live event she watches every year is
    Wimbledon.

    She is of the kind who would be willing to pay for a license for 2 weeks
    but not for a year.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 14:51:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 01/03/2026 10:45, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/28/26 15:02, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 00:30, Pancho wrote:
    On 2/27/26 13:05, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 27/02/2026 11:30, Pancho wrote:


    I also don't have a TV licence, I believe I have no legal
    obligation to get one. I just had a look at iPlayer to see if I was >>>>> missing anything, apparently not. BBC output is just sad compared
    to what it once was.

    Perhaps you'd now tell us honestly, which you seem to have avoided >>>>>> so far, just what you use all the screens at the premises
    (including phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs, video recorders
    etc) for as regards any programmes made for television.


    YouTube, AmazonPrime, NetFlix, Rumble, various sites providing
    their own video.

    Also watching recordings, BitTorrent etc might be a copyright
    violation, but it is not a violation of the TV licence.

    And you don't care about that?-a If not, why not?

    Whether I care or not isn't pertinent to the need for a TVL.

    FWIW, I'm ambivalent. The justifications for copyright are very
    complex. I'm really not qualified to comment on the reasonableness of
    the current system.

    How very convenient!-a It means in your own mind you're free to do
    whatever you want.

    I'm not convinced in the justification for individuals to amass huge fortunes. Unfortunately this belief doesn't mean I'm free to withdraw
    money from Elon Musk's bank account.

    Sorry, I don't see the relevance.

    Not all those who create the copyright media you would use have amassed
    huge fortunes. And you are in no position to distinguish.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I am the type of contemptible fellow who
    would help myself to a bit of Elon's cash, if I could, consequence free.
    To avoid further debate, I would not take money from a poor beggar in
    the street. I'm not sure where I would draw the line, but I would draw it.

    But you don't mind taking, it seems, from anyone whose copyright you can evade, rich or poor.

    I thought we were discussing the TVL.

    Well, it was you who raised the matter of copyright infringement.

    You were making an argument that
    people who don't have licences must be doing so in breach of TVL requirements. I was just pointing out why this was no longer the case. Pointing out that there was a huge amount of exempt content out there.

    Yes, there is. But I just don't believe there are many who access such content exclusively. Call me a cynic, but I certainly don't believe
    there are as many as say they do.

    The fact that you or I may disapprove of that content does not change
    the fact that it doesn't require a TVL. For clarity, I don't actually
    use all these content sources myself.

    One is enough.

    But the justification for copyright is not in the least complex.-a It
    boils down to this: why should you be free to use the creative efforts
    of others, whose livelihoods may well depend on them, for free and
    without even a by-your-leave?

    Defending their creative efforts for at least 70 years after they are dead?

    That has nothing to do with the 'justification for copyright', but with
    its term which is a different argument. I doubt if many copyright
    infringers restrict their activities just to works of people who are dead.

    Many young people don't watch BBC or live content, and never have.

    The licence model just doesn't work. If you want everyone to pay,
    make that a legal requirement, or let the BBC fund itself.

    My preference would be to fund a cheap simple information service
    out of taxation and let the expensive stuff be handled by
    subscription or adverts.

    Ah, so you want the news, and you want it free.

    It's a webpage. If it is free I read it, but I read the BBC less and
    less each year.

    So, why do you want a 'cheap simple information service' provided out
    of taxation?-a It seems from what you self-certify that you manage
    perfectly well without it and don't need it at all.

    That is one of the purposes of government. To organise community
    services: roads, education, health, defence.

    What have they got to do with 'simple information service'?

    I don't think that's ever been a purpose of government.

    Some-a TV content benefits the nation, health care, election manifestos, education, exposure of misinformation. Services that are not
    commercially viable. These services aren't necessarily expensive. The
    BBC made the mistake of trying to compete with the private sector for audience share. Paying celebrities huge salaries to boost audience. The current BBC budget is bloated.

    Anything else, like some sport for example?

    Sport is something to do, not to watch. If I really wanted to watch
    live sport I could go and watch it at a pub, but I don't.

    Do you *never* watch anything live or as live at present?-a If not,
    it seems a somewhat strange and unnecessary desire if the licence
    fee is abolished.

    I never watch live. What is important about live, as opposed to one
    hour old?

    A lot of people like immediacy.

    Possibly, but why do they care? It seems to me the broadcast TV
    emphasised live delivery, because it was an inherent characteristic of
    the service. In real life, people like to chose when to watch.

    It depends what they watch. Many like up-to-the-minute news. Others
    like live sport or football scores. You may wonder why they care, but
    the fact is that they do.

    And their view is their business. It's as valid as yours.

    I would like not to get a threatening letter every month. Plus, I
    could use a good cheap public information service,

    Which you want everyone else to pay for.

    Well, I like roads, hospitals, too. Your argument seemed to be that
    almost everyone required a TVL, in which case the most efficient way of funding it is via general taxation. Administering the TVL separately
    costs money, so why bother?

    It's a very efficient way actually, and raises some -u4 bn a year. If
    the licence fee were to be dropped, I think I can assure you that the government will ensure that just as much is raised through other taxes
    so that everyone pays on average what they do now. That includes you, Fredxx's Wimbledon watching friend, and Peter Able, who currently pay
    nothing.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 14:20:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 01/03/2026 11:48, Fredxx wrote:
    On 01/03/2026 10:37, Norman Wells wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 23:12, Les. Hayward wrote:
    On 28/02/2026 16:52, Norman Wells wrote:

    If I were an inspector, I'd be thinking it very likely that the farm
    had a cockerel to go with the bull.

    I am of the opinion that your continued input to the debate is
    entirely vexatious. I therefore withdraw from it.

    Without making any personal allegations whatsoever, and just speaking
    generally, it is my view that most of those who do not pay for a
    television licence do in fact need one.

    While I am certain you are indeed correct, I can think of a friend who doesn't have a TV and the only live event she watches every year is Wimbledon.

    How does she 'watch it' then?

    If she goes to a friend's TV licensed premises, that's no problem
    anyway. If she stands in Currys and watches it, that's no problem either.

    She is of the kind who would be willing to pay for a license for 2 weeks
    but not for a year.

    No-one watches the entire output of television broadcasting or even of
    just the BBC. Everyone chooses what they watch. Some even obey the law
    and buy a licence to do so in their own home.

    One centre court ticket for one day in Wimbledon's second week, with a
    much poorer view than on TV, will cost her more than the TV licence for
    the whole year, so I don't think she's got much ground for not coughing up.



    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Peter Able@stuck@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 14:32:24 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 01/03/2026 11:48, Fredxx wrote:

    I can think of a friend who doesn't have a TV and the only live event she watches every year is Wimbledon.


    Can you elaborate?
    --
    PA
    --


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
    www.avg.com

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Mar 1 15:11:50 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 01/03/2026 10:45 am, Pancho wrote:

    On 2/28/26 15:02, Norman Wells wrote:

    [ ... ]

    I would like not to get a threatening letter every month. Plus, I
    could use a good cheap public information service,

    Which you want everyone else to pay for.

    Well, I like roads, hospitals, too. Your argument seemed to be that
    almost everyone required a TVL, in which case the most efficient way of funding it is via general taxation. Administering the TVL separately
    costs money, so why bother?

    I never want to see the BBC guaranteed its money in any way at all, privileging it above all competitors.

    Once funded from general taxation, it would operate with even more high-handedness.

    It needs to have a financial settlement which is not guaranteed but
    requires it to operate in the media market, with no income gained from
    people who don't even watch its output. And certainly no income from
    viewers who want only to watch other channels (and I say that as a
    "licence" holder).

    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2