• Why not murder ?

    From Jethro@jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Feb 16 21:16:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for
    GBH was clearly there

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  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Feb 16 22:23:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 16/02/2026 21:16, Jethro wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for
    GBH was clearly there

    Ask the jury, but don't expect an answer?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czr07mr00p8o

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  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Feb 16 22:30:30 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 16 Feb 2026 at 21:16:16 GMT, "Jethro" <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for
    GBH was clearly there

    I can only agree. The fact he may have been a paedophile does not make him non-human, which is about the only way this could be anything but murder.
    --

    Roger Hayter

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  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Feb 17 08:18:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for
    GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

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  • From Adam Funk@a24061a@ducksburg.com to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Feb 17 12:04:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said
    Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service. >>

    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for
    GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

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  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Feb 17 13:11:29 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-17, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said >>> Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service. >>>

    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for >>> GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

    Eggshell skull rule. And sort of - they have, after all, been found
    guilty of causing his death even though they presumably did not intend
    to kill him. But murder requires intent, and the eggshell skull rule
    doesn't invent intent, it just makes you liable for the consequences
    of your actions even if you didn't know those consequences were likely.

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  • From Adam Funk@a24061a@ducksburg.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 19 12:39:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-17, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said >>>> Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service. >>>>

    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for >>>> GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

    Eggshell skull rule. And sort of - they have, after all, been found

    Well, at least I was close enough for you figure out what I meant ---
    thanks for the correction.


    guilty of causing his death even though they presumably did not intend
    to kill him. But murder requires intent, and the eggshell skull rule
    doesn't invent intent, it just makes you liable for the consequences
    of your actions even if you didn't know those consequences were likely.

    Well, sort of. They did intend to injure him.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 19 13:14:44 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-19, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-17, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on
    someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," said >>>>> Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent for >>>>> GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

    Eggshell skull rule. And sort of - they have, after all, been found

    Well, at least I was close enough for you figure out what I meant ---
    thanks for the correction.

    guilty of causing his death even though they presumably did not intend
    to kill him. But murder requires intent, and the eggshell skull rule
    doesn't invent intent, it just makes you liable for the consequences
    of your actions even if you didn't know those consequences were likely.

    Well, sort of. They did intend to injure him.

    Sorry, I don't understand what bit you're disagreeing with.
    "Intent to injure" is not enough for murder, eggshell skull or no.
    It is enough for manslaughter though.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro@jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 19 13:30:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 19 Feb 2026 13:14:44 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-19, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-17, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:

    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on >>>>>> someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," >>>>>> said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown
    Prosecution Service.


    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent >>>>>> for GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely
    when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by
    the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground.
    He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support
    a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

    Eggshell skull rule. And sort of - they have, after all, been found

    Well, at least I was close enough for you figure out what I meant ---
    thanks for the correction.

    guilty of causing his death even though they presumably did not intend
    to kill him. But murder requires intent, and the eggshell skull rule
    doesn't invent intent, it just makes you liable for the consequences
    of your actions even if you didn't know those consequences were
    likely.

    Well, sort of. They did intend to injure him.

    Sorry, I don't understand what bit you're disagreeing with. "Intent to injure" is not enough for murder, eggshell skull or no.
    It is enough for manslaughter though.

    If someone dies as a result of an injury where the intent to cause GBH,
    they can be tried for murder - or so I always understood.

    So I presume that the intent of GBH either was not met or could not be
    shown ?

    That is a question not a statement.

    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Feb 19 16:17:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2026-02-19, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    On Thu, 19 Feb 2026 13:14:44 +0000, Jon Ribbens wrote:
    On 2026-02-19, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Adam Funk <a24061a@ducksburg.com> wrote:
    On 2026-02-17, Jon Ribbens wrote:
    On 2026-02-16, Jethro <jethro_UK@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2lr91enp9po

    "This was a carefully pre-planned deliberate and violent attack on >>>>>>> someone who was not expecting it and who could not defend himself," >>>>>>> said Natalie Smith, senior crown prosecutor from the Crown
    Prosecution Service.

    Given the above, what condition for murder was not met ? The intent >>>>>>> for GBH was clearly there

    I think it can only be that the jury thought the intent to cause
    grievous bodily harm was *not* there. This doesn't seem so unlikely >>>>>> when you consider that the pathologist said that he died of heart
    disease rather than the assault per se, and many of the injuries,
    including the broken ribs and abrasions, could have been caused by >>>>>> the victim being given CPR after the assault while on rocky ground. >>>>>> He concluded "the overall extent of injuries do not readily support >>>>>> a significant assault".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2e12rzz779o

    Doesn't the "thin skull principle" (IIRC) apply?

    Eggshell skull rule. And sort of - they have, after all, been found

    Well, at least I was close enough for you figure out what I meant ---
    thanks for the correction.

    guilty of causing his death even though they presumably did not intend >>>> to kill him. But murder requires intent, and the eggshell skull rule
    doesn't invent intent, it just makes you liable for the consequences
    of your actions even if you didn't know those consequences were
    likely.

    Well, sort of. They did intend to injure him.

    Sorry, I don't understand what bit you're disagreeing with. "Intent to
    injure" is not enough for murder, eggshell skull or no.
    It is enough for manslaughter though.

    If someone dies as a result of an injury where the intent to cause GBH,
    they can be tried for murder - or so I always understood.

    Yes. "Intent to cause grievous bodily harm" is sufficient to support
    a charge of murder. "Intent to injure" is not.

    So I presume that the intent of GBH either was not met or could not be
    shown ?

    That is a question not a statement.

    Yes, I think that is correct, and I said so and why I think it is not
    actally surprising in my post two days ago that is still quoted above.
    The pathologist said there was no evidence of a "significant assault",
    so intent to cause grievous bodily harm would be very hard to prove.
    Add in the young age of the defendants and a murder conviction becomes
    an uphill struggle indeed.

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