• Re: Consequential losses due to Justice cock up

    From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 08:10:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 05:13:23 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the
    premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been unjustly >>>>>> enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do
    you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result of
    this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium
    was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much
    more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance and
    2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-longer
    need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional driver can actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 09:07:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 17/12/2025 18:57, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10huppl$3mv97$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:57 on Wed, 17 Dec
    2025, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:


    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium was
    -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    My renewal has just come in at -u200, lower than last year, no option to remove the business use, two named drivers, -u15 to add another.

    No change in premium when the second driver was added, nor if I chose
    some voluntary excess. Probably more expensive if no additional drivers.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 09:40:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <4540888817.89fafebe@uninhabited.net>, at 08:10:09 on Thu, 18
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>> was u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance and
    2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-longer
    need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional driver can >actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    Yes, that is a commonly quoted phenomenon.

    I think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg) other
    younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not to bump
    into things, because dad will give them a clip round the ear when they
    get back home.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Handsome Jack@jack@handsome.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 08:47:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Wed, 17 Dec 2025 17:40:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

    I was on a 4-lane section of the M25 early Sunday morning earlier in the month, and traffic was understandably quite light. The alphanumeric
    signs said something like "traffic queues ahead" and the variable limit reduced rapidly to 40mph.

    The stretch with a 40 limit didn't have a queue, or any obstacles etc,
    and was still very lightly trafficed. And then at the next set of
    Variable Limit signs it went up to 70. What was *that* all about?

    Similar questions were raised at the Motorway Awareness Course I went on recently as a consequence of my M1 speeding incident. The instructor's
    line was that a driver sitting in his car can only see what's happening
    within a few miles of him, while the traffic control centre's picture is
    much broader in both space and time. A hazard or traffic queue can emerge suddenly, prompt the imposition of a temporary speed restriction, and then disappear by the time the driver reaches it; indeed, the speed
    restriction's *purpose* might have been to slow down approaching traffic
    so as to give time for the hazard to disappear before you get there.

    This reply caused a mutter of sceptical dissent to pass round the room.
    But then attendees at a speed awareness course are often in a resentful
    mood ...

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From No mail@nomail@aolbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 13:01:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the
    premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    -aI would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do
    you-a think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result
    of this-a fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium
    was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>> more.

    -aThat's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and
    no-longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of emergencies.
    FWIW I have been very pleased with a broker called Howden Insurance
    (used to be A-Plan) in Salisbury. I have no interest in them, other than
    being a happy customer. The manager (David Willis, I think) has been particularly helpful.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 08:42:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the
    premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    -aI would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do
    you-a think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result
    of this-a fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium
    was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>> more.

    -aThat's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Layman@Jeff@invalid.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 08:24:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 17/12/2025 17:40, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqg440Ft94dU1@mid.individual.net>, at 16:29:51 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
    On 17/12/2025 10:22, Martin Brown wrote:
    There are definitely some interesting glitches in the smart motorway
    control software. Either that or the operators get perverse enjoyment
    for causing traffic chaos on certain stretches.

    On more than one occasion I have seen the M62 trans-Pennine motorway
    between A1 junction and Huddersfield displaying 40 and 60 on alternate
    gantries causing chaos with half the cars obeying the bonkers signage
    and the other half maintaining a steady 50 mph.

    I too am surprised that this latest MFU hasn't come to light sooner.
    Smart motorways can be incredibly dumb at times.

    I have yet to see an animal on that motorway despite have travelled
    many miles at lower speed because of claims of animals on the road.

    I agree that one sometimes sees signs with alternating 50 and 60
    limits, and sometimes a limit which just applies for a couple of
    hundred metres.

    It's hard to believe that anyone could write software to make such a
    mess of things - so perhaps you are right about operator enjoyment.
    Either way it is appears potentially unsafe as many motorists seem to
    ignore the limits when they seem perverse, while others do not.

    The other annoying situation is when the last sign you see is, e.g. 50
    mph, and then there are no more signs illuminated for many miles and
    never a sign showing the national speed limit. For how long does is
    the reduced limit supposed to apply: just until the next similar sign
    whether switched on or not, or until you see another sign actually
    illuminated?

    I was on a 4-lane section of the M25 early Sunday morning earlier in the month, and traffic was understandably quite light. The alphanumeric
    signs said something like "traffic queues ahead" and the variable limit reduced rapidly to 40mph.

    The stretch with a 40 limit didn't have a queue, or any obstacles etc,
    and was still very lightly trafficed. And then at the next set of
    Variable Limit signs it went up to 70. What was *that* all about?

    That's been going on for years. I used to drive on the M25/M4 around
    Heathrow and could never made sense of the VSL signs. I think that was
    before the averaging system was used, so drivers used to speed up
    between the gantries!

    Out of interest, what rules apply to speed limit signs on motorway
    roadworks where the roadworks have ended and the contractors have
    forgotten to put an "unrestricted" speed sign back. There was (still
    is?) such a situation on the M27 for months. Local drivers ignore the
    40/50mph limits when the roadworks have ended. Are they breaking the law?
    --
    Jeff

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 13:55:56 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do
    you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result
    of this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if they have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a car) it will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 14:43:20 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2025-12-18, Handsome Jack <jack@handsome.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 17 Dec 2025 17:40:46 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
    I was on a 4-lane section of the M25 early Sunday morning earlier in the
    month, and traffic was understandably quite light. The alphanumeric
    signs said something like "traffic queues ahead" and the variable limit
    reduced rapidly to 40mph.

    The stretch with a 40 limit didn't have a queue, or any obstacles etc,
    and was still very lightly trafficed. And then at the next set of
    Variable Limit signs it went up to 70. What was *that* all about?

    Similar questions were raised at the Motorway Awareness Course I went on recently as a consequence of my M1 speeding incident. The instructor's
    line was that a driver sitting in his car can only see what's happening within a few miles of him, while the traffic control centre's picture is much broader in both space and time. A hazard or traffic queue can emerge suddenly, prompt the imposition of a temporary speed restriction, and then disappear by the time the driver reaches it; indeed, the speed
    restriction's *purpose* might have been to slow down approaching traffic
    so as to give time for the hazard to disappear before you get there.

    While an excellent point in theory, and it would explain why there is
    no obvious cause for a slow-down some of the time, it doesn't quite
    explain why the hazard almost *always* turns out to be a mirage.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 15:13:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqht41F8gihU1@mid.individual.net>, at 08:42:42 on Thu, 18
    Dec 2025, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> remarked:

    With a not terrifically exotic car, maximum no-claims, but
    admittedly business-use and three additional named drivers, I'm >>>>paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm
    paying less than u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" >>>performance and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the
    country and no- longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal
    I'll shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really >>still need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    I don't inherently know my named drivers' day to day circumstances, or
    whether they might need to borrow the car in the next several months.

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    I'm only insuring three other people, not the whole world.

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    Until about a month ago, two had no car, and one has always only had
    access to a different borrowed car.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 15:15:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <6615607666.ccce193a@uninhabited.net>, at 13:55:56 on Thu, 18
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do >>>>>> you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result >>>>>> of this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>> was u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if they >have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a car) it >will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.

    And probably not theft of your car (while in their custody).
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 14:31:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18/12/2025 13:55, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do >>>>>> you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result >>>>>> of this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if they have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a car) it
    will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.

    But that's a risk that can be quantified taking into account, for
    example, how often the person is likely to drive the car multiplied by
    the chance each time of their having an accident in it.

    If he or she's a named driver on your policy then you may be deterred
    from claiming off that anyway having regard to how much your car is
    worth, any excess you've agreed to pay regardless, and the loss of your no-claims bonus over several succeeding years.



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 02:43:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18/12/2025 09:40 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <4540888817.89fafebe@uninhabited.net>, at 08:10:09 on Thu, 18
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>> more.

    -aThat's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance and >>>> 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-longer
    need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional
    driver can
    actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    Yes, that is a commonly quoted phenomenon.

    I think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg) other younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not to bump
    into things, because dad will give them a clip round the ear when they
    get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason why the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to the policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the
    teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers' own
    cars).


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 02:44:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18/12/2025 01:55 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been
    unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do >>>>>> you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result >>>>>> of this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional
    named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying
    less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance
    and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if they have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a car) it
    will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.

    That is not universal. In fact, I'd think it's unusual.

    We each have a car and are each named on the policy of the other - fully comprehensive.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:31:36 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19 Dec 2025 at 02:44:45 GMT, "JNugent" <JNugent73@mail.com> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 01:55 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been >>>>>>>>> unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do >>>>>>> you think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result >>>>>>> of this fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>>> more.

    That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional >>>>>> named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying >>>>> less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance >>>>> and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about. Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if they >> have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a car) it
    will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.

    That is not universal. In fact, I'd think it's unusual.

    We each have a car and are each named on the policy of the other - fully comprehensive.

    We are both saying the same thing; I was saying that if someone is *not* a named driver but drives on the basis of an "any car" clause on their own insurance policy then the comprehensive cover doesn't apply. But it does if they are a named driver on the car's own policy. It was ambiguous how I put
    it.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:44:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 18 Dec 2025 08:10:09 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 05:13:23 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional driver can >actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    The fundamental "why" is pretty simple: cars with more than one named driver have a lower claim rate. Since the claim rate is the only thing that
    insurers care about, they reduce the premium on cars with more than one
    named driver.

    Why cars with more than one named driver have a lower claim rate is a
    question which often crops up in discussions. It's possible that there may
    be some research out there which goes some way to answering it. But the insurers don't care about that. All they care about is the fact that cars
    with more than one named driver are less likely to cost them money in
    claims.

    When I as younger, and single, I managed to exploit this by adding a female friend to my insurance even though she never actually drove my car. I
    suspect that this would have been looked down on by my insurers. But it
    worked to reduce the premium.

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:58:14 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2025-12-19, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 08:10:09 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 05:13:23 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional driver can
    actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    The fundamental "why" is pretty simple: cars with more than one named driver have a lower claim rate. Since the claim rate is the only thing that
    insurers care about, they reduce the premium on cars with more than one
    named driver.

    Well, they care about the average annual cost of insuring the client.
    More claims will increase that of course, but other factors could too.
    One Selby rail crash is worth quite a few Vauxhall Astras pranged into
    trees.

    Why cars with more than one named driver have a lower claim rate is a question which often crops up in discussions. It's possible that there may
    be some research out there which goes some way to answering it. But the insurers don't care about that. All they care about is the fact that cars with more than one named driver are less likely to cost them money in
    claims.

    When I as younger, and single, I managed to exploit this by adding a female friend to my insurance even though she never actually drove my car. I
    suspect that this would have been looked down on by my insurers. But it worked to reduce the premium.

    I don't see what grounds they would have to complain. Sure, you might
    not have had any firm plans for her to drive the car, but it's always
    useful to have other people *allowed* to drive the car just in case,
    and there's no reason you can't.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 11:49:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:58:14 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:

    On 2025-12-19, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 08:10:09 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 05:13:23 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional driver can
    actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    The fundamental "why" is pretty simple: cars with more than one named driver >> have a lower claim rate. Since the claim rate is the only thing that
    insurers care about, they reduce the premium on cars with more than one
    named driver.

    Well, they care about the average annual cost of insuring the client.
    More claims will increase that of course, but other factors could too.
    One Selby rail crash is worth quite a few Vauxhall Astras pranged into
    trees.

    Yes, but instances like Selby are very rare and don't really feature in the actuarial tables. It's the quantity and value of everyday claims that are
    the key factors in setting premiums.

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jon Ribbens@jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 12:05:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 2025-12-19, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:58:14 -0000 (UTC), Jon Ribbens
    <jon+usenet@unequivocal.eu> wrote:

    On 2025-12-19, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 08:10:09 GMT, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> wrote:

    On 18 Dec 2025 at 05:13:23 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote: >>>>
    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll >>>>> shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still >>>>> need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of >>>>> emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional >>>>driver can actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    The fundamental "why" is pretty simple: cars with more than one
    named driver have a lower claim rate. Since the claim rate is the
    only thing that insurers care about, they reduce the premium on cars
    with more than one named driver.

    Well, they care about the average annual cost of insuring the client.
    More claims will increase that of course, but other factors could too.
    One Selby rail crash is worth quite a few Vauxhall Astras pranged into >>trees.

    Yes, but instances like Selby are very rare and don't really feature in the actuarial tables. It's the quantity and value of everyday claims that are
    ^^^^^^^^^
    the key factors in setting premiums.

    That ("and value") was my point.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Norman Wells@hex@unseen.ac.am to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 12:09:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19/12/2025 02:44, JNugent wrote:
    On 18/12/2025 01:55 pm, Roger Hayter wrote:
    On 18 Dec 2025 at 08:42:42 GMT, "Norman Wells" <hex@unseen.ac.am> wrote:

    On 18/12/2025 05:13, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqgkvsF274pU1@mid.individual.net>, at 21:17:48 on Wed, 17
    Dec 2025, No mail <nomail@aolbin.com> remarked:
    You'd hope the insurance companies would [be forced to] lower the >>>>>>>>> premiums, and back-date that change. It's them that have been >>>>>>>>> unjustly
    enriched by the error.

    -a I would expect that as a given.

    I would, too, as long as somebody pays for the admin costs. Or, do >>>>>>> you-a think that it's okay for them to be out of pocket as a result >>>>>>> of this-a fiasco?

    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>>> was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>>> more.

    -a That's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic >>>>>> car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional >>>>>> named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying >>>>> less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance >>>>> and 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-
    longer need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered.

    It's *your* insurance we're talking about.-a Surely you must know?

    It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    They can all drive and have presumably passed their tests, so why does
    it fall to you to insure the whole world?

    Don't any of them have their own cars or insurance?

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even if
    they
    have their own car insurance (which they might not if they don't own a
    car) it
    will only cover my car for third party losses, not for damage to my car.

    That is not universal. In fact, I'd think it's unusual.

    We each have a car and are each named on the policy of the other - fully comprehensive.

    Is that 'fleet insurance' with the same insurer though?

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 19:05:58 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqktj6Fnms0U2@mid.individual.net>, at 12:09:09 on Fri, 19
    Dec 2025, Norman Wells <hex@unseen.ac.am> remarked:

    You seem to misunderstand the purpose of having named drivers. Even
    if they have their own car insurance (which they might not if they >>>don't own a car) it will only cover my car for third party losses,
    not for damage to my car.

    That is not universal. In fact, I'd think it's unusual.
    We each have a car and are each named on the policy of the other -
    fully comprehensive.

    Is that 'fleet insurance' with the same insurer though?

    My wife and I used to have a multi-car policy with a well known
    household name, but they summarily cancelled it when she died, so
    I had to seek an alternative. I still had both cars, of course,
    and it turned out to be cheaper to insure them with two different
    other companies, than just myself on the multi-car.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 19:19:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqjse9FilhgU1@mid.individual.net>, at 02:43:22 on Fri, 19
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 18/12/2025 09:40 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <4540888817.89fafebe@uninhabited.net>, at 08:10:09 on Thu,
    18 Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest premium >>>>>>> was u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be much >>>>>>> more.

    aThat's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic car, >>>>>> maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional >>>>>> named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying >>>>> less than u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate" performance and >>>>> 2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-longer >>>>> need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll
    shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still
    need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of
    emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional >>>driver can actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    Yes, that is a commonly quoted phenomenon.

    I think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg)
    other younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not to >>bump into things, because dad will give them a clip round the ear
    when they get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason why
    the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to the
    policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the
    teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers' own >cars).

    It appears you don't know much about risk management. For example if the
    very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad isn't.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Dec 20 00:45:02 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19/12/2025 07:19 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqjse9FilhgU1@mid.individual.net>, at 02:43:22 on Fri, 19
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 18/12/2025 09:40 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <4540888817.89fafebe@uninhabited.net>, at 08:10:09 on Thu,
    18-a Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    I don't know what you pay for motor insurance, but my latest
    premium
    was -u200. The admin costs for dealing with this could easily be >>>>>>>> much
    more.

    -aThat's very cheap for insurance. With a not terrifically exotic >>>>>>> car,
    maximum no-claims, but admittedly business-use and three additional >>>>>>> named drivers, I'm paying ten times that.

    Ouch! Perhaps worth a word with a broker, or the meerkats. I'm paying >>>>>> less than -u310 for a German brand with quite "adequate"
    performance and
    2 named drivers, but I'm in a rural part of the country and no-longer >>>>>> need a car for business.

    That *is* a quote via meerkats, but when it comes up for renewal I'll >>>>> shop around again, and also ask my named drivers if they really still >>>>> need to be covered. It's still handy to have at least one, in case of >>>>> emergencies.

    Depending on the particular drivers, having at least one additional
    driver can-a actually reduce the quotation. Don't ask me why.

    -aYes, that is a commonly quoted phenomenon.

    -aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg)
    other-a younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not
    to bump-a into things, because dad will give them a clip round the ear
    when they-a get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason why
    the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to the
    policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the
    teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers'
    own cars).

    It appears you don't know much about risk management. For example if the very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad isn't.

    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance companies.

    You know that, surely?





    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Dec 20 19:22:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat, 20 Dec
    2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg) >>>>othera younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not
    to bumpa into things, because dad will give them a clip round the
    ear when theya get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason why >>>the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to the >>>policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those >>>circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the >>>teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers'
    own cars).

    It appears you don't know much about risk management. For example if
    the very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad isn't.

    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when driving
    dad's.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sat Dec 20 23:56:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 20/12/2025 07:22 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat, 20 Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    -aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg)
    other-a younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful not >>>>> to bump-a into things, because dad will give them a clip round the
    ear-a when they-a get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason why
    the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to the
    policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the
    teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers'
    own cars).

    -aIt appears you don't know much about risk management. For example if
    the-a very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad isn't.

    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance
    companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his dad's
    car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up in the
    -u4,000 range?

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 09:24:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqordbFdehqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:27 on Sat, 20
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 20/12/2025 07:22 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat, 20
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg) >>>>>>othera younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful >>>>>>not to bumpa into things, because dad will give them a clip round >>>>>>the eara when theya get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason >>>>>why the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added to >>>>>the policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those >>>>>circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the >>>>>teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage drivers' >>>>>own cars).

    aIt appears you don't know much about risk management. For example
    if thea very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad


    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when
    driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his dad's
    car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up in the
    u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's u50k Audi back with a dent in the side,
    he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it again.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JNugent@JNugent73@mail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 11:58:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21/12/2025 09:24 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqordbFdehqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:27 on Sat, 20
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 20/12/2025 07:22 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat, 20
    Dec-a 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    -aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for (eg) >>>>>>> other-a younger family members to drive, they'll be much careful >>>>>>> not-a to bump-a into things, because dad will give them a clip
    round the-a ear-a when they-a get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason
    why-a the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added >>>>>> to the-a policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the >>>>>> teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage
    drivers' >>>>>own cars).

    -aIt appears you don't know much about risk management. For example >>>>> if-a the-a very careful teenager is driving the car then clipper-dad

    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance
    companies.

    -aYou appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    -aThey might not be careful with their own car, but will be when
    driving-a dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his dad's
    car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up in the
    -u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's -u50k Audi back with a dent in the side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds
    per year, is it?


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 14:10:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mqq5mnFk2emU2@mid.individual.net>, at 11:58:15 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 09:24 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqordbFdehqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:27 on Sat, 20
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 20/12/2025 07:22 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat,
    20 Deca 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    aI think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for >>>>>>>>(eg) othera younger family members to drive, they'll be much >>>>>>>>careful nota to bumpa into things, because dad will give them a >>>>>>>>clip round thea eara when theya get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason >>>>>>>whya the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added >>>>>>>to thea policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those >>>>>>>circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the >>>>>>>teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage >>>>>>>drivers' >>>>>own cars).

    aIt appears you don't know much about risk management. For >>>>>>example ifa thea very careful teenager is driving the car then


    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>companies.

    aYou appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    aThey might not be careful with their own car, but will be when >>>>drivinga dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his
    dad's car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up
    in the u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's u50k Audi back with a dent in the
    side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it >>again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds
    per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 15:03:26 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21 Dec 2025 at 14:10:11 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <mqq5mnFk2emU2@mid.individual.net>, at 11:58:15 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 09:24 am, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqordbFdehqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:56:27 on Sat, 20
    Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:
    On 20/12/2025 07:22 pm, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mqm9sdFgieU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:45:02 on Sat,
    20 Dec 2025, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com> remarked:

    I think the reason is that if you are insuring your car for >>>>>>>>> (eg) other younger family members to drive, they'll be much >>>>>>>>> careful not to bump into things, because dad will give them a >>>>>>>>> clip round the ear when they get back home.

    A 50-yr-old partner is one thing, but there is no obvious reason >>>>>>>> why the premium should be lower when a teenaged driver is added >>>>>>>> to the policy.

    The "clip round the ear" theory doesn't hold water in those
    circumstances, because the car is simply safer from damage if the >>>>>>>> teenager doesn't drive it at all (see premiums for teenage
    drivers' >>>>>own cars).

    It appears you don't know much about risk management. For
    example if the very careful teenager is driving the car then


    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance
    companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when
    driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his
    dad's car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up
    in the -u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's -u50k Audi back with a dent in the
    side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it
    again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds
    per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to point out that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and then allowing a teenage named driver effectively exclusive use of it amounts to insurance fraud.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 18:56:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <2940620345.8799fdd1@uninhabited.net>, at 15:03:26 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>>> companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when
    driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his
    dad's car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up
    in the u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's u50k Audi back with a dent in the
    side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it
    again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds
    per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to point out >that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and then allowing a teenage >named driver effectively exclusive use of it amounts to insurance fraud.

    That wasn't the scenario I was talking about.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 00:27:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21 Dec 2025 at 18:56:09 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <2940620345.8799fdd1@uninhabited.net>, at 15:03:26 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>>>> companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when
    driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his
    dad's car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up >>>>>> in the -u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's -u50k Audi back with a dent in the >>>>> side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it >>>>> again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds
    per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to point out >> that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and then allowing a teenage
    named driver effectively exclusive use of it amounts to insurance fraud.

    That wasn't the scenario I was talking about.

    Well of course not! I am simply *supporting* your contention that a teenager pays a lot less for insurance when a named driver than they would for his or her own policy.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 06:59:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <6322010517.ef1133c8@uninhabited.net>, at 00:27:00 on Mon, 22
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    On 21 Dec 2025 at 18:56:09 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <2940620345.8799fdd1@uninhabited.net>, at 15:03:26 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>>>>> companies.

    You appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    They might not be careful with their own car, but will be when >>>>>>>> driving dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his
    dad's car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up >>>>>>> in the u4,000 range?

    Because when he brings his dad's u50k Audi back with a dent in the >>>>>> side, he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever driving it >>>>>> again.

    And that's enough to reduce the insurer's risk by thousands of pounds >>>>> per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to
    point out that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and
    then allowing a teenage named driver effectively exclusive use of it >>>amounts to insurance fraud.

    That wasn't the scenario I was talking about.

    Well of course not! I am simply *supporting* your contention that a teenager >pays a lot less for insurance when a named driver than they would for his or >her own policy.

    It's the other way round - dad pays a less for *his* insurance by having
    a younger named driver, even if the latter only borrows the car a couple
    of times a year.

    One of my cars has a named driver who hasn't used it at all since the
    middle of last year. But I like to keep them on the policy, for
    emergencies (something regular policies used to cover anyway, but T&C
    are generally tightened up now, so I'm just following *their* rules).
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Simon Parker@simonparkerulm@gmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Tue Dec 23 23:03:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 22/12/2025 06:59, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <6322010517.ef1133c8@uninhabited.net>, at 00:27:00 on Mon, 22
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    On 21 Dec 2025 at 18:56:09 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <2940620345.8799fdd1@uninhabited.net>, at 15:03:26 on Sun, 21 >>> Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>>>>>> companies.

    -aYou appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    -aThey might not be careful with their own car, but will be when >>>>>>>>> driving-a dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his >>>>>>>> dad's-a car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up >>>>>>>> in the-a -u4,000 range?

    -aBecause when he brings his dad's -u50k Audi back with a dent in the >>>>>>> side,-a he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever
    driving it
    again.

    And that's enough to reduce the iurer's risk by thousands of pounds >>>>>> per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing
    strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to
    point out-a that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and
    then allowing a teenage-a named driver effectively exclusive use of
    it amounts to insurance fraud.

    That wasn't the scenario I was talking about.

    Well of course not! I am simply *supporting* your contention that a
    teenager
    pays a lot less for insurance when a named driver than they would for
    his or
    her own policy.

    It's the other way round - dad pays a less for *his* insurance by having
    a younger named driver, even if the latter only borrows the car a couple
    of times a year.

    One of my cars has a named driver who hasn't used it at all since the
    middle of last year. But I like to keep them on the policy, for
    emergencies (something regular policies used to cover anyway, but T&C
    are generally tightened up now, so I'm just following *their* rules).

    You might find it cheaper / easier to consider availing of the services proffered by companies providing temporary insurance cover.

    As I've volunteered in the past, I have a good friend that owns an
    insurance broker and not only did he recommend this route to me but he
    also recommended tempcover.com for the temporary cover. It can all be
    done online, out of usual office hours, to meet your "emergency"
    criteria. However, if you, the other driver, and / or the vehicle are "unusual" I recommend calling them during office hours and having the
    policy set-up, but not activated, meaning you're good to go within a
    couple of minutes of the emergency occurring.

    This allows one to use a specialist insurer for the main policy with an additional driver being added as and when necessary on a separate
    policy. If they are not using the car regularly, this tends to work out cheaper, and if it doesn't, you likely need to find a new insurance broker.

    Regards

    S.P.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Dec 24 07:22:38 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mr0lf0Fmpq2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:03:59 on Tue, 23
    Dec 2025, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:
    On 22/12/2025 06:59, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <6322010517.ef1133c8@uninhabited.net>, at 00:27:00 on Mon,
    22 Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:
    On 21 Dec 2025 at 18:56:09 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <2940620345.8799fdd1@uninhabited.net>, at 15:03:26 on Sun, 21 >>>> Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:

    Teenagers are not usually treated as "very careful" by insurance >>>>>>>>>>> companies.

    aYou appear to have lost the plot. Again.

    aThey might not be careful with their own car, but will be when >>>>>>>>>> drivinga dad's.

    Please show your working out.

    Why would an eighteen-year-old be adjudged to be careful in his >>>>>>>>> dad'sa car, when his own Vauxhall Nova's policy premium would be up >>>>>>>>> in thea u4,000 range?

    aBecause when he brings his dad's u50k Audi back with a dent in the >>>>>>>> side,a he'll get a clip round the ear and banned from ever >>>>>>>>driving it
    again.

    And that's enough to reduce the iurer's risk by thousands of pounds >>>>>>> per year, is it?

    Who said "thousands of pounds per year"? I didn't. Are you hearing >>>>>> strange voices in the night...

    It certainly reduces it enough to lead the insurance companies to >>>>>point outa that insuring a car in a middle-aged person's name and >>>>>then allowing a teenagea named driver effectively exclusive use of >>>>>it amounts to insurance fraud.

    That wasn't the scenario I was talking about.

    Well of course not! I am simply *supporting* your contention that a >>>teenager pays a lot less for insurance when a named driver than they >>>would for his or her own policy.

    It's the other way round - dad pays a less for *his* insurance by
    having a younger named driver, even if the latter only borrows the
    car a couple of times a year.

    One of my cars has a named driver who hasn't used it at all since
    the middle of last year. But I like to keep them on the policy, for >>emergencies (something regular policies used to cover anyway, but T&C
    are generally tightened up now, so I'm just following *their* rules).

    You might find it cheaper / easier to consider availing of the services >proffered by companies providing temporary insurance cover.

    Yes, I did that originally, but time is money and filling in their forms
    every time someone wants to borrow the car for half an hour doesn't
    scale.

    you likely need to find a new insurance broker.

    I haven't been able to find a traditional human insurance broker for
    more than 20yrs. Like local travel agents (rather than holiday
    retailers) they are an endangered species.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Simon Parker@simonparkerulm@gmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Dec 24 10:36:40 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 24/12/2025 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mr0lf0Fmpq2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:03:59 on Tue, 23
    Dec 2025, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:
    On 22/12/2025 06:59, Roland Perry wrote:

    -aIt's the other way round - dad pays a less for *his* insurance by
    having-a a younger named driver, even if the latter only borrows the
    car a couple-a of times a year.

    -aOne of my cars has a named driver who hasn't used it at all since
    the-a middle of last year. But I like to keep them on the policy, for
    emergencies (something regular policies used to cover anyway, but T&C
    are generally tightened up now, so I'm just following *their* rules).

    You might find it cheaper / easier to consider availing of the
    services proffered by companies providing temporary insurance cover.

    Yes, I did that originally, but time is money and filling in their forms every time someone wants to borrow the car for half an hour doesn't scale.

    No forms to fill in as it is all done on-line. It took me less than 5
    minutes the last time I did it.

    I'll also remind you that your example is an individual "who hasn't used
    it at all since the middle of last year".

    I imagine it is taking you at least a similar amount of time, if not
    longer, to answer questions about the named driver whilst in the
    "proposal" phase of new policies each renewal window, which, as you're
    not using a broker, ought to involve at least two comparison sites plus
    two other sites, so that's a minimum of four proposals in total.
    (Assuming you do not "auto renew", which you *really* should not be doing!)


    you likely need to find a new insurance broker.

    I haven't been able to find a traditional human insurance broker for
    more than 20yrs. Like local travel agents (rather than holiday
    retailers) they are an endangered species.

    I have heard good reports about Howden Insurance (formerly A-Plan).
    Your nearest branch is Bury St Edmunds but they ought to be able to sort
    the majority, if not all of it, over the phone.

    Regards

    S.P.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Wed Dec 24 11:07:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <mr1u1oFt53gU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:36:40 on Wed, 24
    Dec 2025, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:
    On 24/12/2025 07:22, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <mr0lf0Fmpq2U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:03:59 on Tue, 23
    Dec 2025, Simon Parker <simonparkerulm@gmail.com> remarked:
    On 22/12/2025 06:59, Roland Perry wrote:

    aIt's the other way round - dad pays a less for *his* insurance by >>>>havinga a younger named driver, even if the latter only borrows the >>>>car a couplea of times a year.

    aOne of my cars has a named driver who hasn't used it at all since >>>>thea middle of last year. But I like to keep them on the policy, for >>>>emergencies (something regular policies used to cover anyway, but
    T&C are generally tightened up now, so I'm just following *their* rules). >>>
    You might find it cheaper / easier to consider availing of the
    services proffered by companies providing temporary insurance cover.

    Yes, I did that originally, but time is money and filling in their
    forms every time someone wants to borrow the car for half an hour
    doesn't scale.

    No forms to fill in as it is all done on-line.

    Filling in an online form.

    It took me less than 5 minutes the last time I did it.

    I'll also remind you that your example is an individual "who hasn't
    used it at all since the middle of last year".

    I imagine it is taking you at least a similar amount of time, if not
    longer, to answer questions about the named driver whilst in the
    "proposal" phase of new policies each renewal window,

    What happened in practice is I added them to an existing policy, after
    it had been taken out.

    which, as you're not using a broker, ought to involve at least two >comparison sites plus two other sites, so that's a minimum of four
    proposals in total. (Assuming you do not "auto renew", which you
    *really* should not be doing!)

    you likely need to find a new insurance broker.

    I haven't been able to find a traditional human insurance broker for >>more than 20yrs. Like local travel agents (rather than holiday
    retailers) they are an endangered species.

    I have heard good reports about Howden Insurance (formerly A-Plan).
    Your nearest branch is Bury St Edmunds

    Might give them a visit "I come to Bury St Edmunds, not to Praise him".

    but they ought to be able to sort the majority, if not all of it, over
    the phone.

    Regards

    S.P.

    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2