• Re: Illegal Waste Tipping & Impotent EA/Councils

    From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 09:53:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 11:47:08 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 12/12/25 20:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:48:11 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 12/11/25 21:01, Martin Brown wrote:
    Another one in the news today and lots of hand wringing by the local
    council and the environment agency about how nothing can be done.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74x9gqynp9o

    I could pick half a dozen more...

    Why can nothing be done?

    Surely it is fairly straightforward to confiscate every waste truck
    caught illegally dumping there and prosecute the owners. Confiscate
    enough illegal waste operators trucks and the problem should go away.

    Given the profits to be had illegally dumping waste the only other
    solution is to make the expectation value of the punishment fit the
    crime. That probably means unlimited fines for those caught.


    There is of course another solution. One that actually worked in the
    past. That solution being free disposal, provided by the local authority. >>
    Commercial waste disposal has never been free. Nor is it significantly more >> expensive, in real terms, than it has been in the past.

    My perception is that waste disposal is significantly more difficult
    and/or more expensive than it was in the past.

    It's more complex. That's an unavoidable consequence of the need to move
    away from highly polluting landfill to more environmentally friendly means
    of waste disposal. But, also, modern business practices tend to generate
    more waste than in the past.

    Regardless, even if it wasn't, incentivising responsible disposal seems
    to me to be a more tractable solution than detection and punishment. The >criminal justice system is overburdened. Having a Bobby permanently >patrolling every country lane, producing more prosecutions for our >overburdened courts, doesn't seem sensible.

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised, who pays for the subsidies?

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 15:07:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 09:53:57 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised,
    who pays for the subsidies?

    As long as profits aren't affected, and taxes are kept low, I don't think
    the company cares. Rinse and repeat on the way down until you reach the
    level where people have no choice.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 15:18:58 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 15:07:24 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
    <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 09:53:57 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised,
    who pays for the subsidies?

    As long as profits aren't affected, and taxes are kept low, I don't think >the company cares. Rinse and repeat on the way down until you reach the >level where people have no choice.

    Well, one entirely realistic option is to put it onto business rates, in the same way that domestic waste collection and disposal is paid for by council tax. You could even charge higher levels of business rates for businesses
    which typically produce more waste. If commercial waste collection and
    disposal was free at point of use, paid instead by taxes levied on
    businesses, then commercial fly tipping would be much less of an issue.

    However, there would be some fairly obvious downsides to such a solution. I will leave it to the readers to consider those for themselves.

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 16:13:30 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 12/18/25 09:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 11:47:08 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/12/25 20:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:48:11 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> >>> wrote:

    On 12/11/25 21:01, Martin Brown wrote:
    Another one in the news today and lots of hand wringing by the local >>>>> council and the environment agency about how nothing can be done.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74x9gqynp9o

    I could pick half a dozen more...

    Why can nothing be done?

    Surely it is fairly straightforward to confiscate every waste truck
    caught illegally dumping there and prosecute the owners. Confiscate
    enough illegal waste operators trucks and the problem should go away. >>>>>
    Given the profits to be had illegally dumping waste the only other
    solution is to make the expectation value of the punishment fit the
    crime. That probably means unlimited fines for those caught.


    There is of course another solution. One that actually worked in the
    past. That solution being free disposal, provided by the local authority. >>>
    Commercial waste disposal has never been free. Nor is it significantly more >>> expensive, in real terms, than it has been in the past.

    My perception is that waste disposal is significantly more difficult
    and/or more expensive than it was in the past.

    It's more complex. That's an unavoidable consequence of the need to move
    away from highly polluting landfill to more environmentally friendly means
    of waste disposal. But, also, modern business practices tend to generate
    more waste than in the past.


    If you add a disposal surcharge to goods at the point of sale, it has
    the double advantage of discouraging people from using more disposable
    goods in the first place, and it can contribute to the cost of
    appropriate disposal.

    For particularly toxic waste, you might also add a deposit at point of
    sale, which can be reclaimed from appropriate disposal sites.

    These are not new ideas.

    Regardless, even if it wasn't, incentivising responsible disposal seems
    to me to be a more tractable solution than detection and punishment. The
    criminal justice system is overburdened. Having a Bobby permanently
    patrolling every country lane, producing more prosecutions for our
    overburdened courts, doesn't seem sensible.

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised, who pays for the subsidies?


    Subsidy is an emotive term, I would characterise it as providing
    national infrastructure.

    I don't know why you distinguish between commercial and domestic?



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 16:48:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/18/25 09:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 11:47:08 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/12/25 20:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:48:11 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/11/25 21:01, Martin Brown wrote:
    Another one in the news today and lots of hand wringing by the
    local council and the environment agency about how nothing can be
    done.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74x9gqynp9o

    I could pick half a dozen more...

    Why can nothing be done?

    Surely it is fairly straightforward to confiscate every waste truck >>>>>> caught illegally dumping there and prosecute the owners. Confiscate >>>>>> enough illegal waste operators trucks and the problem should go
    away.

    Given the profits to be had illegally dumping waste the only other >>>>>> solution is to make the expectation value of the punishment fit the >>>>>> crime. That probably means unlimited fines for those caught.


    There is of course another solution. One that actually worked in the >>>>> past. That solution being free disposal, provided by the local
    authority.

    Commercial waste disposal has never been free. Nor is it
    significantly more expensive, in real terms, than it has been in the
    past.

    My perception is that waste disposal is significantly more difficult
    and/or more expensive than it was in the past.

    It's more complex. That's an unavoidable consequence of the need to
    move away from highly polluting landfill to more environmentally
    friendly means of waste disposal. But, also, modern business practices
    tend to generate more waste than in the past.


    If you add a disposal surcharge to goods at the point of sale, it has
    the double advantage of discouraging people from using more disposable
    goods in the first place, and it can contribute to the cost of
    appropriate disposal.

    For particularly toxic waste, you might also add a deposit at point of
    sale, which can be reclaimed from appropriate disposal sites.

    These are not new ideas.

    But that just means people who have no source of income would have to
    have benefits increased to match. Not very popular in the current climate.

    Also, hypothecation isn't really a thing in Britain. If it was our NI
    would cover the welfare state.

    Subsidy is an emotive term, I would characterise it as providing
    national infrastructure.

    Again, not very popular in the current climate.

    I don't know why you distinguish between commercial and domestic?

    Agreed. Commecial waste is generated by a business making a profit.
    Domestic waste is (nominally) produced as a by product of living.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Thu Dec 18 21:07:08 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 12/18/25 09:53, Mark Goodge wrote:

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised, who >> pays for the subsidies?

    Subsidy is an emotive term, I would characterise it as providing
    national infrastructure.

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it isn't.
    It's the use of it that you also want to be funded from taxation. I thik
    it's perfectly reasonable to describe that as a subsidy.

    I don't know why you distinguish between commercial and domestic?

    I do, because the law does. And the law does, because commercial waste is a by-product of a profit-making activity, whereas domestic waste is a
    consequence of simply living. Waste disposal is just another overhead of a business, along with rent, utilities and salaries.

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 09:54:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 12/18/25 16:48, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/18/25 09:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 11:47:08 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/12/25 20:53, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Fri, 12 Dec 2025 09:48:11 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/11/25 21:01, Martin Brown wrote:
    Another one in the news today and lots of hand wringing by the
    local council and the environment agency about how nothing can be >>>>>>> done.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c74x9gqynp9o

    I could pick half a dozen more...

    Why can nothing be done?

    Surely it is fairly straightforward to confiscate every waste truck >>>>>>> caught illegally dumping there and prosecute the owners. Confiscate >>>>>>> enough illegal waste operators trucks and the problem should go
    away.

    Given the profits to be had illegally dumping waste the only other >>>>>>> solution is to make the expectation value of the punishment fit the >>>>>>> crime. That probably means unlimited fines for those caught.


    There is of course another solution. One that actually worked in the >>>>>> past. That solution being free disposal, provided by the local
    authority.

    Commercial waste disposal has never been free. Nor is it
    significantly more expensive, in real terms, than it has been in the >>>>> past.

    My perception is that waste disposal is significantly more difficult
    and/or more expensive than it was in the past.

    It's more complex. That's an unavoidable consequence of the need to
    move away from highly polluting landfill to more environmentally
    friendly means of waste disposal. But, also, modern business practices
    tend to generate more waste than in the past.


    If you add a disposal surcharge to goods at the point of sale, it has
    the double advantage of discouraging people from using more disposable
    goods in the first place, and it can contribute to the cost of
    appropriate disposal.

    For particularly toxic waste, you might also add a deposit at point of
    sale, which can be reclaimed from appropriate disposal sites.

    These are not new ideas.

    But that just means people who have no source of income would have to
    have benefits increased to match. Not very popular in the current climate.

    Also, hypothecation isn't really a thing in Britain. If it was our NI
    would cover the welfare state.

    Taxation changes could be flat for targeted groups. Anyway,
    redistribution of wealth is an issue we need to tackle, it is getting
    more urgent, and will continue to do so.

    Hypothecation is purely political, an accounting overhead and
    restriction. Organisations work better if they have operational freedom
    to balance their budgets.





    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:12:17 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 09:54:59 +0000, Pancho wrote:

    On 12/18/25 16:48, Jethro_uk wrote:
    [quoted text muted]
    Taxation changes could be flat for targeted groups. Anyway,
    redistribution of wealth is an issue we need to tackle, it is getting
    more urgent, and will continue to do so.

    Not if you are rich.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:12:59 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:07:08 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    [quoted text muted]

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it isn't.

    That could be said of a lot of things.

    Healthcare. Education. Policing ...

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mark Goodge@usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:31:44 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:12:59 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
    <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:07:08 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
    wrote:

    [quoted text muted]

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it isn't.

    That could be said of a lot of things.

    Healthcare. Education. Policing ...

    All of those are free at point of use, at least as far as the state-provided services are concerned.

    Mark

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 11:51:24 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:31:44 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:12:59 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:07:08 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho
    <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com>
    wrote:

    [quoted text muted]

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it
    isn't.

    That could be said of a lot of things.

    Healthcare. Education. Policing ...

    All of those are free at point of use, at least as far as the
    state-provided services are concerned.

    That is just a statement and does not address the original point that
    some people consume resources at a different rate to others and what is
    the best way to try and even that out if you purport to be an equitable society,

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 10:37:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 12/18/25 21:07, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:

    On 12/18/25 09:53, Mark Goodge wrote:

    The question is, if you want commercial waste disposal to be subsidised, who
    pays for the subsidies?

    Subsidy is an emotive term, I would characterise it as providing
    national infrastructure.

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it isn't.
    It's the use of it that you also want to be funded from taxation. I thik
    it's perfectly reasonable to describe that as a subsidy.


    I don't understand. Public footpaths are infrastructure provided out of taxation, but permitting people to walk upon them is a subsidy?

    It is reasonable to discuss funding, and I did, but it is better to
    avoid political terms loaded with baggage.

    I don't know why you distinguish between commercial and domestic?

    I do, because the law does. And the law does, because commercial waste is a by-product of a profit-making activity, whereas domestic waste is a consequence of simply living. Waste disposal is just another overhead of a business, along with rent, utilities and salaries.


    I don't understand your point.

    One of the reasons to distinguish between corporate and domestic is that
    there is a huge variation in the amount of waste produced by different
    types of company. It is reasonable to use a funding mechanism that makes
    costs proportional to usage.

    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, but so
    would a disposal tax at point of sale.



    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 13:45:33 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19/12/2025 10:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
    On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:12:59 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:07:08 +0000, Mark Goodge wrote:

    On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 16:13:30 +0000, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> >>> wrote:

    [quoted text muted]

    The infrastructure is provided out of taxation. But the use of it isn't.

    That could be said of a lot of things.

    Healthcare. Education. Policing ...

    All of those are free at point of use, at least as far as the state-provided services are concerned.

    State-provided dental services are not generally free, and a prescription for ibuprofen might cost -u10.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Fri Dec 19 13:50:18 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    Tax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 09:22:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10i406l$1aeq8$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:57:56 on Fri, 19 Dec
    2025, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> remarked:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this,
    but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied >>cardboard boxes when sending orders.

    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it >different for cardboard boxes?

    It's somewhat amusing to see people stuffing 10p carrier bags with
    mainly over-packaged produce. Greenwash, plain and simple.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 10:18:14 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, but so >>> would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.


    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it different for cardboard boxes?

    I admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related to the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 10:37:19 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 10:18:14 +0000, Nick Finnigan wrote:

    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, but
    so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.


    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it
    different for cardboard boxes?

    I admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related to
    the
    actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    The actual or nomalised cost ?

    It could cost a lot more in a rural location, than a city (for example).

    (You will, of course, be familiar with the way the postal service works).

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 10:47:35 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21/12/2025 10:37, Jethro_uk wrote:
    On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 10:18:14 +0000, Nick Finnigan wrote:

    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, but >>>>> so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.


    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it
    different for cardboard boxes?

    I admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related to
    the
    actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    The actual or nomalised cost ?

    It could cost a lot more in a rural location, than a city (for example).

    (You will, of course, be familiar with the way the postal service works).

    Compared with a charge 10p per bag, it does not matter.

    (Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily basis).


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 11:12:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10i8j86$2jfai$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:35 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:

    Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily basis

    They are in some places. See Eddington.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 11:52:37 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21/12/2025 11:12, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8j86$2jfai$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:35 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:

    Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily basis

    They are in some places. See Eddington.

    "The items fall into a large underground chamber, and a sensor notifies the council when it is full, so that collections need only take place when
    needed. A specialist lorry then hoists the container out of the ground with
    a crane and empties the waste into the vehicle." ?

    https://eddington-cambridge.co.uk/news-and-updates/unique-waste-and-recycling-system-starts-collection

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 12:28:50 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10i8n24$2jfah$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:37 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 11:12, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8j86$2jfai$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:35 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:

    Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily
    basis

    They are in some places. See Eddington.

    "The items fall into a large underground chamber, and a sensor notifies
    the council when it is full, so that collections need only take place
    when needed. A specialist lorry then hoists the container out of the
    ground with a crane and empties the waste into the vehicle." ?

    https://eddington-cambridge.co.uk/news-and-updates/unique-waste-and-recy >cling-system-starts-collection

    Exactly, the items are collected from the homes not just daily, but
    could be hourly. They are then removed from the central facility, as
    required.

    However, I've noticed this scheme breaks down the week or two at the end
    of Summer Term, when lots of the students with rentals in Eddington go
    back home (to China etc). The system then becomes overloaded, and piles
    of traditional black sacks appear along the roadside.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Pancho@Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 13:08:28 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 12/21/25 10:18, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:


    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this,
    but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.


    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it
    different for cardboard boxes?

    -aI admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related to
    the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?



    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods at
    the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect, encouraging
    people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in comparison to a
    similar behavioural effect created by charging people at the point of disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of
    disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale or
    point of disposal.

    In general, one would try to tailor the disposal costs levied on
    specific types of item to reflect how environmentally problematic they
    were. It may be that reuse of cardboard boxes is not particularly cost-effective. However, that applies to both costs at point of purchase
    or costs at point of disposal. Hence, my not understanding what point
    you were trying to make?

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 18:54:10 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10i8rge$122ue$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:28 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> remarked:
    On 12/21/25 10:18, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:

    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, >>>>>but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    aaTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied >>>>cardboard boxes when sending orders.

    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it >>>different for cardboard boxes?

    aI admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related
    to the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods at
    the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect, encouraging
    people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in comparison to a
    similar behavioural effect created by charging people at the point of >disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of
    disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale or
    point of disposal.

    Only if the "disposal tax" was itemised on the receipt, the way it is
    for plastic bags.

    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian takeway
    recently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - which
    seem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains far more
    plastic).

    In general, one would try to tailor the disposal costs levied on
    specific types of item to reflect how environmentally problematic they
    were. It may be that reuse of cardboard boxes is not particularly >cost-effective. However, that applies to both costs at point of
    purchase or costs at point of disposal. Hence, my not understanding
    what point you were trying to make?

    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Davey@davey@example.invalid to uk.legal.moderated on Sun Dec 21 19:51:36 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 18:54:10 +0000
    Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <10i8rge$122ue$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:28 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> remarked:
    On 12/21/25 10:18, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:

    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve
    this,
    but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of
    recevied
    cardboard boxes when sending orders.

    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is
    it
    different for cardboard boxes?

    -aI admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely
    related
    to the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods
    at the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect,
    encouraging people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in
    comparison to a similar behavioural effect created by charging
    people at the point of disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of
    disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale
    or point of disposal.

    Only if the "disposal tax" was itemised on the receipt, the way it is
    for plastic bags.

    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian takeway
    recently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - which
    seem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains far
    more plastic).

    There you go, looking at things logically! That way lies chaos.
    --
    Davey.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 01:17:47 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8rge$122ue$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:28 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> remarked:
    On 12/21/25 10:18, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:

    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve this, >>>>>> but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    -a-aTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of recevied >>>>> cardboard boxes when sending orders.

    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is it
    different for cardboard boxes?

    -a -aI admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely related
    to-a the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods at
    the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect, encouraging
    people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in comparison to a
    similar behavioural effect created by charging people at the point of
    disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of
    disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale or
    point of disposal.

    Only if the "disposal tax" was itemised on the receipt, the way it is
    for plastic bags.

    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian takeway
    -arecently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - which
    -aseem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains far more
    -aplastic).

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you can
    get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    That plastic bag on the other hand, is barely strong enough to get your
    curry safely home. Just as at the supermarket, I always take my own bag
    with me.
    --
    Sam Plusnet

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 06:54:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <%_02R.38$BJ84.4@fx17.ams1>, at 01:17:47 on Mon, 22 Dec 2025,
    Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8rge$122ue$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:28 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> remarked:
    On 12/21/25 10:18, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 16:57, Pancho wrote:
    On 12/19/25 13:50, Nick Finnigan wrote:
    On 19/12/2025 10:37, Pancho wrote:

    The current disposal charges, "pay to tip", roughly achieve >>>>>>>this, but so would a disposal tax at point of sale.

    aaTax at point of sale would not encourage e.g. re-use of >>>>>>recevied cardboard boxes when sending orders.

    Tax at point of sale did encourage reuse of plastic bags, why is
    it different for cardboard boxes?

    a aI admit I was assuming your disposal tax would be closely
    related toa the actual cost of disposal. What did you have in mind ?

    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods
    at the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect,
    encouraging people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in >>>comparison to a similar behavioural effect created by charging
    people at the point of disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of >>>disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale
    or point of disposal.

    Only if the "disposal tax" was itemised on the receipt, the way it
    is for plastic bags.

    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian
    takeway arecently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - >>which aseem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains
    far more aplastic).

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you
    can get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    I find that using a regular dishwasher is OK to sanitise them, I then
    out into a cupboard, and about a year later throw twenty away because
    the freezer's full anyway.

    That plastic bag on the other hand, is barely strong enough to get your >curry safely home. Just as at the supermarket, I always take my own
    bag with me.

    The 10p bags vary enormously, some are very flimsy, others I've re-used
    for years. I do try to take my own bag, but sometimes I forget (like
    when going to the Indian last week).
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 10:43:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 01:17:47 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you can
    get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    We haven't used anything plastic for years, since we realised that the panopoly of glass jars that are used for everything (except, weirdly,
    vinegar, which now comes in nasty plastic bottles) are perfect for
    freezing meals. They stack nicely and unlike nearly all the crap sold in stores today won't fail after repeated used.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Nick Finnigan@nix@genie.co.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 10:45:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 21/12/2025 12:28, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8n24$2jfah$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:37 on Sun, 21 Dec
    2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 11:12, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8j86$2jfai$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:35 on Sun, 21 Dec >>> 2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:

    Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily basis

    -aThey are in some places. See Eddington.

    "The items fall into a large underground chamber, and a sensor notifies
    the council when it is full, so that collections need only take place
    when needed. A specialist lorry then hoists the container out of the
    ground with a crane and empties the waste into the vehicle."-a ?

    https://eddington-cambridge.co.uk/news-and-updates/unique-waste-and-recy
    cling-system-starts-collection

    Exactly, the items are collected from the homes not just daily, but could
    be hourly. They are then removed from the central facility, as required.

    ... but in large full containers, not as individual items from each home.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Max Demian@max_demian@bigfoot.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 12:17:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 22/12/2025 01:17, Sam Plusnet wrote:
    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8rge$122ue$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:08:28 on Sun, 21 Dec

    I was making a general point that paying a disposal cost for goods at
    the point of purchase could have a behavioural effect, encouraging
    people to re-use items and reduce waste. This was in comparison to a
    similar behavioural effect created by charging people at the point of
    disposal, pay to tip.

    In a rational world, one would expect a broadly similar effect of
    disposal costs, regardless of if they were charged at point of sale
    or point of disposal.

    Only if the "disposal tax" was itemised on the receipt, the way it is
    for plastic bags.

    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian takeway
    -a-arecently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - which
    -a-aseem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains far more
    -a-aplastic).

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you can
    get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    I'm still using Chinese takeaway containers from 2011 and before.

    That plastic bag on the other hand, is barely strong enough to get your curry safely home.-a Just as at the supermarket, I always take my own bag with me.

    People here throw their rubbish away in 10p "bags for life". If clean, I retrieve them from the collective bin and use them. I don't think I've
    paid anything for a shopping bag in my life.
    --
    Max Demian

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 14:31:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10ib7ga$3c0p5$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:45:32 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 12:28, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8n24$2jfah$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:52:37 on Sun, 21
    Dec 2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:
    On 21/12/2025 11:12, Roland Perry wrote:
    In message <10i8j86$2jfai$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:35 on Sun, 21 >>>>Dec 2025, Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> remarked:

    Individual items of waste are not collected from homes on a daily basis >>
    aThey are in some places. See Eddington.

    "The items fall into a large underground chamber, and a sensor
    notifies the council when it is full, so that collections need only >>>take place when needed. A specialist lorry then hoists the container >>>out of the ground with a crane and empties the waste into the vehicle."a ? >>>
    https://eddington-cambridge.co.uk/news-and-updates/unique-waste-and-recy >>> cling-system-starts-collection

    Exactly, the items are collected from the homes not just daily, but >>could be hourly. They are then removed from the central facility, as >>required.

    ... but in large full containers, not as individual items from each home.

    Removed offsite, yes; but they are **collected from homes**
    continuously, by the waste & recycling system.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 14:33:57 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10ib7bp$25kd4$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:05 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 01:17:47 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you can
    get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    We haven't used anything plastic for years, since we realised that the >panopoly of glass jars that are used for everything (except, weirdly, >vinegar, which now comes in nasty plastic bottles) are perfect for
    freezing meals. They stack nicely and unlike nearly all the crap sold in >stores today won't fail after repeated used.

    The rectangular aluminium foil containers (not used by takeaways as much
    these days) stack better than jars, because they go all the way into the corners.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 14:39:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10ibcrs$3epcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:17:00 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> remarked:
    (I got charged 10p for a flimsy plastic bag to carry my Indian takeway
    aarecently, and zero on the various plastic food containers - which
    aaseem to wholesale at about 15p each - each of which contains far more
    aaplastic).
    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long >>afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you
    can get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    I'm still using Chinese takeaway containers from 2011 and before.

    That plastic bag on the other hand, is barely strong enough to get
    your curry safely home.a Just as at the supermarket, I always take my
    own bag with me.

    People here throw their rubbish away in 10p "bags for life". If clean,
    I retrieve them from the collective bin and use them. I don't think
    I've paid anything for a shopping bag in my life.

    Most "bags for life" are 30p (Morrisons), 40p (Tesco, Sainsbury's,
    Lidl), 50p (Waitrose) or 65p (Aldi) nowadays.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jethro_uk@jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 16:35:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 14:33:57 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

    In message <10ib7bp$25kd4$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:43:05 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:
    On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 01:17:47 +0000, Sam Plusnet wrote:

    On 21/12/2025 18:54, Roland Perry wrote:
    [quoted text muted]

    Some of those containers can be really useful and can have a long
    afterlife when freezing individual portions of food - as long as you
    can get the smell of the original contents to go away.

    We haven't used anything plastic for years, since we realised that the >>panopoly of glass jars that are used for everything (except, weirdly, >>vinegar, which now comes in nasty plastic bottles) are perfect for
    freezing meals. They stack nicely and unlike nearly all the crap sold in >>stores today won't fail after repeated used.

    The rectangular aluminium foil containers (not used by takeaways as much these days) stack better than jars, because they go all the way into the corners.

    Yeah, we used to use those (got them in the 100s from Makro).

    Right up until I felt a little queasy noticing that the sealing wasn't airtight and wondering what that layer of ice crystals that slowly built
    up was hiding.

    Reusing old glass jars seems to be cheaper and safer and worth the slight
    loss of volume.

    Of course that merely (once again) brings up the cost of moving glass
    around the world, only for it to be supposedly crushed and remelted as
    opposed to a simple wash and reuse. And the answer to that is "being
    green" is still more expensive than extracting from scratch.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 19:10:31 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <10ibs0k$25kd4$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:35:32 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

    We haven't used anything plastic for years, since we realised that the >>>panopoly of glass jars that are used for everything (except, weirdly, >>>vinegar, which now comes in nasty plastic bottles) are perfect for >>>freezing meals. They stack nicely and unlike nearly all the crap sold in >>>stores today won't fail after repeated used.

    The rectangular aluminium foil containers (not used by takeaways as much
    these days) stack better than jars, because they go all the way into the
    corners.

    Yeah, we used to use those (got them in the 100s from Makro).

    Right up until I felt a little queasy noticing that the sealing wasn't >airtight and wondering what that layer of ice crystals that slowly built
    up was hiding.

    You aren't supposed to freeze things for more than about three months,
    and in that time you don't get much of the freezer-burn build up.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roger Hayter@roger@hayter.org to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 19:45:51 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    On 22 Dec 2025 at 19:10:31 GMT, "Roland Perry" <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

    In message <10ibs0k$25kd4$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:35:32 on Mon, 22 Dec
    2025, Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> remarked:

    We haven't used anything plastic for years, since we realised that the >>>> panopoly of glass jars that are used for everything (except, weirdly,
    vinegar, which now comes in nasty plastic bottles) are perfect for
    freezing meals. They stack nicely and unlike nearly all the crap sold in >>>> stores today won't fail after repeated used.

    The rectangular aluminium foil containers (not used by takeaways as much >>> these days) stack better than jars, because they go all the way into the >>> corners.

    Yeah, we used to use those (got them in the 100s from Makro).

    Right up until I felt a little queasy noticing that the sealing wasn't
    airtight and wondering what that layer of ice crystals that slowly built
    up was hiding.

    You aren't supposed to freeze things for more than about three months,
    and in that time you don't get much of the freezer-burn build up.

    A rather conservative policy, and mainly relevant to food with a high lipid content. Gametes and embryoes at liquid nitrogen temperature seem to last a
    lot longer.
    --

    Roger Hayter

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Roland Perry@roland@perry.uk to uk.legal.moderated on Mon Dec 22 19:52:39 2025
    From Newsgroup: uk.legal.moderated

    In message <3275157559.ea166d5c@uninhabited.net>, at 19:45:51 on Mon, 22
    Dec 2025, Roger Hayter <roger@hayter.org> remarked:

    You aren't supposed to freeze things for more than about three months,
    and in that time you don't get much of the freezer-burn build up.

    A rather conservative policy, and mainly relevant to food with a high lipid >content. Gametes and embryoes at liquid nitrogen temperature seem to last a >lot longer.

    Currys were sold out of liquid nitrogen freezers last time I asked.
    --
    Roland Perry

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2