• Re: TOT: food hygiene

    From richard@richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) to uk.d-i-y on Tue Feb 17 17:58:01 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    In article <10n206v$1r5gf$4@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Many pulses need to be cooked alone in pure boiling water.

    raw kidney beans chickpeas and some lentils come to mind.

    Do you have a reference for "pure"?

    What I meant was DO NOT ADD SALT. Or anything that will lower the
    boiling point. Not till the bloody things are cooked.

    Adding salt *raises* the boiling point, though only negligibly for
    a plausible amount of salt. The effect of the weather is greater.

    High altitudes might actually have a significant effect. It's probably impossible to destroy the toxins by boiling at above 6000m.

    -- Richard
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  • From Max Demian@max_demian@bigfoot.com to uk.d-i-y on Tue Feb 17 18:03:39 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 16/02/2026 22:34, alan_m wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 21:36, Andy Burns wrote:

    alan_m wrote:

    As a side issue, TV adverts for steam mops and steam cleaners for
    kitchens/bathrooms. show them being wafted around quickly with
    claims of killing germs, bacteria etc. I remember seeing the (very)
    small print at the bottom of the screen stating the claims were only
    valid if the steam was applied to the same area for 60 seconds or
    more.

    A few years ago, my mum bought herself a new steam mop, and gave me
    the old one as a hand-me-down, I later inherited the new one too.
    They are both bloody useless for cleaning a bathroom or kitchen ...



    Much like a lot of wonder products advertised on TV but then disappear
    from sale a couple months afterwards :)

    I purchased one of those spray mops with the large microfibre cleaning cloth/pad. It seemed to work until I used it on a very light coloured cushion floor. First time with new pad it successfully picked up minor surface dirt. It was only used for a minute. Second use with the same
    pad and I noticed that the pad was dropping the dirt in a line at the
    end of each stroke. A few more uses with replacement pads and I came to
    the conclusion that the microfibre pads can only pick up a small amount
    of surface dirt and once this small threshold is reached it deposits it
    back on the floor, but as a very thin line every time the pad comes to a stop and reverses direction. On a darker floor this probably wouldn't be noticed.

    I think you have the "wrong kind of floor"?!

    My spray mop is marvellous. I can control how wet the floor gets, so it doesn't take too long to dry; I leave the cleaning fluid in the mop -
    mine is stored in the handle - so it's available at short notice for
    casual use. The only shortcoming is that it's rather flimsy - I broke
    one by pressing too hard on it. (I have a proper sponge mop for serious
    use.)
    --
    Max Demian
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  • From Max Demian@max_demian@bigfoot.com to uk.d-i-y on Tue Feb 17 18:08:52 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 12:22, Handsome Jack wrote:
    On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 11:46:52 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

    On 16/02/2026 18:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 15:07, Indy Jess John wrote:

    In a Victorian recipe it describes red kidney beans as poisonous
    unless cooked properly.-a The cooking advice is "boil furiously for at >>>> least 10 minutes".-a A more modern recipe says always use tinned red
    kidney beans because they have had all the poison cooked out.

    The first time I made chilli con carne I didn't know you had to keep
    the kidney beans on a rolling boil for at least 25 minutes, and, shall
    we say, had a very uncomfortable night. I nearly blamed the local
    butcher (who was very good indeed) for selling dodgy mince!

    I've never had that problem with chilli con carne. Surely it's just a
    matter of the temperature? A gentle, slowly bubbling simmer must be at
    (or very near) 100 C; I would simmer it for about an hour to cook the
    mince. And I've never suffered food poisoning as a result.

    You probably use tinned beans, as I and most other people do. No problem
    with them. The disaster ensues if you cook them from raw; the beans
    contain ricin, a vegetable (not bacterial) poison that is only destroyed
    by long boiling.

    Of course I mean dried red kidney beans, soaked overnight. The
    instructions advise fast boiling for 10 minutes, then simmering for 40
    minutes or so. I find simmering for an hour or so sufficient, without
    the initial boiling. Surely it's purely a matter of temperature.
    --
    Max Demian
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  • From Sam Plusnet@not@home.com to uk.d-i-y on Tue Feb 17 18:55:46 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 09:38, wasbit wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 12:43, GB wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 09:31, wasbit wrote:

    I have had to point out to one supermarket manager that the complete
    stock of coleslaw had the previous days date. We then had to go to a
    different supermarket to purchase some.

    How long does it take to slice up a cabbage? Surely, that's easier
    than traipsing off to another supermarket.

    Really?
    First you have to buy the cabbage which is large & heavy (compared to a
    tub of coleslaw).
    Then you have to buy the other ingredients - more expense.
    Then there is the preparation time.
    Then you have to find a way to use all the excess expensive ingredients.
    The traipse is approx 200 yards & although driving, is on the route home.
    No thanks.

    I remember getting a similar response about buying mayonnaise.
    You have to make a large quantity of the stuff - far more than we could
    use before it has to be chucked.

    It's much the same with coleslaw, I invariably end up chucking some away
    - once the mayonnaise starts to separate.
    --
    Sam Plusnet
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  • From wasbit@wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 09:38:56 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 17:20, alan_m wrote:
    On 17/02/2026 08:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 22:34, alan_m wrote:
    Much like a lot of wonder products advertised on TV but then
    disappear from sale a couple months afterwards EfOe

    I have concluded that an air fryer is exactly that

    I will be chucking my SH one in a skip when I get a Round Tuit.



    My air fryer is used most days but I never believed the hype that you
    can cook a whole meal. I will use it to cook thin cuts of meat (no more
    than a few inches thick), burgers, sausages, a couple of medium size
    baked potatoes, wet fish in foil with butter etc. I still cook
    vegetables in a pan of boiling water or from frozen in the microwave. Anything like a full chicken or joint of meat, even a small one, will be cooked in the oven and not the air fryer. In the air fryer anything
    close to the element will burn.


    Ditto except any large meat items are generally done in the slow cooker. However the air fryer does make rather nice roast potatoes.


    Snip <
    --
    Regards
    wasbit
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 11:57:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 17:58, Richard Tobin wrote:
    In article <10n206v$1r5gf$4@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Many pulses need to be cooked alone in pure boiling water.

    raw kidney beans chickpeas and some lentils come to mind.

    Do you have a reference for "pure"?

    What I meant was DO NOT ADD SALT. Or anything that will lower the
    boiling point. Not till the bloody things are cooked.

    Adding salt *raises* the boiling point, though only negligibly for
    a plausible amount of salt. The effect of the weather is greater.

    Good heavens You are correct.
    Well my empirical data that salted beans take forever to cook must be
    down to something else.


    High altitudes might actually have a significant effect. It's probably impossible to destroy the toxins by boiling at above 6000m.

    -- Richard

    Gosh . How did those Peruvian Indians survive?
    --
    "It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's" Joew Walsh

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  • From GB@NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 12:31:14 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 09:38, wasbit wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 12:43, GB wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 09:31, wasbit wrote:

    I have had to point out to one supermarket manager that the complete
    stock of coleslaw had the previous days date. We then had to go to a
    different supermarket to purchase some.

    How long does it take to slice up a cabbage? Surely, that's easier
    than traipsing off to another supermarket.

    Really?
    First you have to buy the cabbage which is large & heavy (compared to a
    tub of coleslaw).
    Then you have to buy the other ingredients - more expense.
    Then there is the preparation time.

    It doesn't take long. Two or three minutes.

    I admit that I'm anti supermarket coleslaw. They turn what should be a
    healthy food into a nasty fatty unhealthy mess.

    When I make coleslaw, it doesn't have any mayonnaise in it. Just some
    yogurt and lemon juice.


    Then you have to find a way to use all the excess expensive ingredients.
    The traipse is approx 200 yards & although driving, is on the route home.

    You drive 200 yards, rather than walking? This is a bananas world we
    live in.


    No thanks.


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  • From Jeff Layman@Jeff@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 13:44:36 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 18:08, Max Demian wrote:
    On 17/02/2026 12:22, Handsome Jack wrote:
    On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 11:46:52 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

    On 16/02/2026 18:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 15:07, Indy Jess John wrote:

    In a Victorian recipe it describes red kidney beans as poisonous
    unless cooked properly.-a The cooking advice is "boil furiously for at >>>>> least 10 minutes".-a A more modern recipe says always use tinned red >>>>> kidney beans because they have had all the poison cooked out.

    The first time I made chilli con carne I didn't know you had to keep
    the kidney beans on a rolling boil for at least 25 minutes, and, shall >>>> we say, had a very uncomfortable night. I nearly blamed the local
    butcher (who was very good indeed) for selling dodgy mince!

    I've never had that problem with chilli con carne. Surely it's just a
    matter of the temperature? A gentle, slowly bubbling simmer must be at
    (or very near) 100 C; I would simmer it for about an hour to cook the
    mince. And I've never suffered food poisoning as a result.

    You probably use tinned beans, as I and most other people do. No problem
    with them. The disaster ensues if you cook them from raw; the beans
    contain ricin, a vegetable (not bacterial) poison that is only destroyed
    by long boiling.

    Of course I mean dried red kidney beans, soaked overnight. The
    instructions advise fast boiling for 10 minutes, then simmering for 40 minutes or so. I find simmering for an hour or so sufficient, without
    the initial boiling. Surely it's purely a matter of temperature.

    I think it's a temperature-time thing, with a minimum temperature at the
    start required to ensure the temp inside the bean gets to 100-#C quickly,
    and then is kept there on a rolling boil so it remains at 100-#C.
    Simmering is ok, but I would be concerned that if not checked it could
    fall to 80 - 85-#C. According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_bean#Toxicity> "cooking at the
    lower temperature of 80 -#C (176 -#F), such as in a slow cooker, is insufficient to denature the toxin and has been reported to cause food poisoning".
    --
    Jeff
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Layman@Jeff@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 13:58:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 12:22, Handsome Jack wrote:
    On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 11:46:52 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

    On 16/02/2026 18:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 15:07, Indy Jess John wrote:

    In a Victorian recipe it describes red kidney beans as poisonous
    unless cooked properly.-a The cooking advice is "boil furiously for at >>>> least 10 minutes".-a A more modern recipe says always use tinned red
    kidney beans because they have had all the poison cooked out.

    The first time I made chilli con carne I didn't know you had to keep
    the kidney beans on a rolling boil for at least 25 minutes, and, shall
    we say, had a very uncomfortable night. I nearly blamed the local
    butcher (who was very good indeed) for selling dodgy mince!

    I've never had that problem with chilli con carne. Surely it's just a
    matter of the temperature? A gentle, slowly bubbling simmer must be at
    (or very near) 100 C; I would simmer it for about an hour to cook the
    mince. And I've never suffered food poisoning as a result.

    You probably use tinned beans, as I and most other people do. No problem
    with them. The disaster ensues if you cook them from raw; the beans
    contain ricin, a vegetable (not bacterial) poison that is only destroyed
    by long boiling.

    Kidney beans contain a phytohaemagglutinin, and that is what is
    responsible for the gastric symptoms. Ricin is somewhat different, and
    is found in castor oil beans. Although it is much less toxic by mouth
    than when injected, I wouldn't eat castor oil seeds to check it out! Its effect on the GI tract can be considerably more serious than the phytohaemagglutinin in kidney beans.

    "That's Life" did a feature on it in the 1980s, before ricin became
    famous :)
    --
    Jeff
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 14:43:04 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 18/02/2026 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
    I think it's a temperature-time thing, with a minimum temperature at the start required to ensure the temp inside the bean gets to 100-#C quickly, and then is kept there on a rolling boil so it remains at 100-#C.
    Simmering is ok, but I would be concerned that if not checked it could
    fall to 80 - 85-#C. According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_bean#Toxicity> "cooking at the
    lower temperature of 80 -#C (176 -#F), such as in a slow cooker, is insufficient to denature the toxin and has been reported to cause food poisoning".

    Sadly there is no evidence that a rolling boil is hotter than a simmer.

    But the extra turbulence does help in some cases.
    --
    rCLThe fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell


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  • From Max Demian@max_demian@bigfoot.com to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 15:19:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 18/02/2026 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 17/02/2026 18:08, Max Demian wrote:
    On 17/02/2026 12:22, Handsome Jack wrote:
    On Tue, 17 Feb 2026 11:46:52 +0000, Max Demian wrote:

    On 16/02/2026 18:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 16/02/2026 15:07, Indy Jess John wrote:

    In a Victorian recipe it describes red kidney beans as poisonous
    unless cooked properly.-a The cooking advice is "boil furiously for at >>>>>> least 10 minutes".-a A more modern recipe says always use tinned red >>>>>> kidney beans because they have had all the poison cooked out.

    The first time I made chilli con carne I didn't know you had to keep >>>>> the kidney beans on a rolling boil for at least 25 minutes, and, shall >>>>> we say, had a very uncomfortable night. I nearly blamed the local
    butcher (who was very good indeed) for selling dodgy mince!

    I've never had that problem with chilli con carne. Surely it's just a
    matter of the temperature? A gentle, slowly bubbling simmer must be at >>>> (or very near) 100 C; I would simmer it for about an hour to cook the
    mince. And I've never suffered food poisoning as a result.

    You probably use tinned beans, as I and most other people do. No problem >>> with them. The disaster ensues if you cook them from raw; the beans
    contain ricin, a vegetable (not bacterial) poison that is only destroyed >>> by long boiling.

    Of course I mean dried red kidney beans, soaked overnight. The
    instructions advise fast boiling for 10 minutes, then simmering for 40
    minutes or so. I find simmering for an hour or so sufficient, without
    the initial boiling. Surely it's purely a matter of temperature.

    I think it's a temperature-time thing, with a minimum temperature at the start required to ensure the temp inside the bean gets to 100-#C quickly, and then is kept there on a rolling boil so it remains at 100-#C.
    Simmering is ok, but I would be concerned that if not checked it could
    fall to 80 - 85-#C. According to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Kidney_bean#Toxicity> "cooking at the lower temperature of 80 -#C (176
    -#F), such as in a slow cooker, is insufficient to denature the toxin and has been reported to cause food poisoning".

    I think I would know if I were using a slow cooker, especially as I
    don't own one.
    --
    Max Demian
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  • From Max Demian@max_demian@bigfoot.com to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 15:23:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 17/02/2026 12:22, Handsome Jack wrote:

    "That's Life" did a feature on it in the 1980s, before ricin became
    famous :)

    "That's Life" (and Esther Rantzen) is why kids aren't allowed proper playground equipment any more - remember the witch's hat and high slides
    - and have soft stuff on the ground (instead of extra hard concrete).
    --
    Max Demian
    --- Synchronet 3.21b-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Jeff Layman@Jeff@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 15:43:06 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 18/02/2026 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/02/2026 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
    I think it's a temperature-time thing, with a minimum temperature at the
    start required to ensure the temp inside the bean gets to 100-#C quickly,
    and then is kept there on a rolling boil so it remains at 100-#C.
    Simmering is ok, but I would be concerned that if not checked it could
    fall to 80 - 85-#C. According to
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_bean#Toxicity> "cooking at the
    lower temperature of 80 -#C (176 -#F), such as in a slow cooker, is
    insufficient to denature the toxin and has been reported to cause food
    poisoning".

    Sadly there is no evidence that a rolling boil is hotter than a simmer.

    At <https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/3949/pasta-is-simmering-equivalent-to-roiling-boil>
    there is a comment that "Simmering is not the same as boiling. Boiling
    water is 212 rae (100 raa). Simmering water is in the range of 185 rae to 200 rae (85 raa to 93 raa)." It might, however, be debunked later in that thread.

    And <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/simmer-vs-boil-compared> says simmering is usually between 195 and 211rae!

    But the extra turbulence does help in some cases.

    Indeed. The turbulence will even out the high temperature across the
    whole saucepan. With a simmer you risk leaving some areas cooler than
    others. It could especially be true with beans which seem to be pretty
    dense and lay in one place when they've settled.
    --
    Jeff
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@tnp@invalid.invalid to uk.d-i-y on Wed Feb 18 17:48:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 18/02/2026 15:43, Jeff Layman wrote:
    On 18/02/2026 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 18/02/2026 13:44, Jeff Layman wrote:
    I think it's a temperature-time thing, with a minimum temperature at the >>> start required to ensure the temp inside the bean gets to 100-#C quickly, >>> and then is kept there on a rolling boil so it remains at 100-#C.
    Simmering is ok, but I would be concerned that if not checked it could
    fall to 80 - 85-#C. According to
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney_bean#Toxicity> "cooking at the
    lower temperature of 80 -#C (176 -#F), such as in a slow cooker, is
    insufficient to denature the toxin and has been reported to cause food
    poisoning".

    Sadly there is no evidence that a rolling boil is hotter than a simmer.

    At <https://cooking.stackexchange.com/questions/3949/pasta-is-simmering-equivalent-to-roiling-boil> there is a comment that "Simmering is not the same as boiling. Boiling water is 212 rae (100 raa). Simmering water is in the range of 185 rae to 200 rae (85 raa to 93 raa)." It might, however, be debunked later in that thread.

    And <https://www.masterclass.com/articles/simmer-vs-boil-compared> says simmering is usually between 195 and 211rae!

    Its a widely held myth. Like Russ andrews audio cables

    But the extra turbulence does help in some cases.

    Indeed. The turbulence will even out the high temperature across the
    whole saucepan. With a simmer you risk leaving some areas cooler than others. It could especially be true with beans which seem to be pretty
    dense and lay in one place when they've settled.

    --
    The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
    into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
    what it actually is.


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  • From alan_m@junk@admac.myzen.co.uk to uk.d-i-y on Thu Feb 19 06:48:35 2026
    From Newsgroup: uk.d-i-y

    On 18/02/2026 11:57, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    Gosh . How did those Peruvian Indians survive?


    They all died from the toxins in the small green potatoes they ate.
    --
    mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
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