Has anyone ever claimed that the ID creationist scam died after Dover?What happened after Dover was IDists moved their efforts to supporting curricula in private schools, under the guise of religious expression.
It was never taken seriously by anyone with a clue after that, but it >definitely did not die. We had IDiots posting to TO until the ID perps >screwed up and put out their Top Six best evidences for the ID scam in
the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.
In fact, the ID perps doubled down on the bait and switch scam after--
Dover, and they started claiming that the judges decision was wrong, and >that even though ID had been found to be illegal to teach in the Dover >public schools that the ID scam could still be taught outside of the
middle federal court district of PA. The ID perps continue to run the
bait and switch ID scam to this day. West Virginia, North and South
Dakota are evidence of that. The ID perps are the only creationist >organization left still selling the rubes on the teach ID creationist
ploy. The ID network quit selling the teach ID ploy when the bait and >switch started to go down, and they concentrated on selling the switch
scam that didn't mention that ID had ever existed. They even changed
their name to COPE for around 8 years in order to sell the switch scam >without having ID in the name of their organization.
The Louisiana rubes didn't bend over for the switch scam until 2008, and
had to have the bait and switch run on them a second time when they
tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their public schools in
2009. Texas didn't pass their switch scam state school board junk until >2010 and both Louisiana and Texas had the bait and switch run on them
again when both states tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their >public schools in 2013.
The ID movement has just been using ID as bait for over 23 years. Dover
hit the fan and the bait and switch failed 3 years after the ID perps
began running the bait and switch scam on any creationist rubes that had >believed them about having any ID science to teach in the public
schools. The Dover rubes were just too stupid and ignorant to know that
the ID perps were then ones that were selling the teach ID scam at that >time, so they didn't take the switch scam and tried to teach ID anyway.
If anything the ID movement died when the bait and switch started to go
down in 2002. Nelson started claiming that the ID science had never >existed, but that the ID perps were working on creating some, and IDiots >like Mike Gene admitted that he had given up on teaching the ID scam
junk back in 1999. ID has just been used as bait for over 23 years.
The ID movement should have never started the bait and switch scam that
is only run on their own creationist support base, but once the bait and >switch scam started it likely should have died after Dover, but the scam >artists could not give up on the original Wedge mission that the ID
perps had signed up to accomplish. The obfuscation and denial switch
scam is their only way forward in trying to accomplish their Wedge
goals, and the only way that they can get the rubes to try it is to use
ID as bait. COPE had a 100% failure rate for trying to sell creationist >rubes the switch scam without using ID as bait. Creationists just do
not want to teach their kids enough science for them to understand what
they have to deny if they can't tell them the religious reason for lying
to them.
Ron Okimoto
Has anyone ever claimed that the ID creationist scam died after Dover?What happened after Dover was IDists moved their efforts to supporting curricula in private schools, under the guise of religious expression.
It was never taken seriously by anyone with a clue after that, but it >definitely did not die. We had IDiots posting to TO until the ID perps >screwed up and put out their Top Six best evidences for the ID scam in
the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.
In fact, the ID perps doubled down on the bait and switch scam after--
Dover, and they started claiming that the judges decision was wrong, and >that even though ID had been found to be illegal to teach in the Dover >public schools that the ID scam could still be taught outside of the
middle federal court district of PA. The ID perps continue to run the
bait and switch ID scam to this day. West Virginia, North and South
Dakota are evidence of that. The ID perps are the only creationist >organization left still selling the rubes on the teach ID creationist
ploy. The ID network quit selling the teach ID ploy when the bait and >switch started to go down, and they concentrated on selling the switch
scam that didn't mention that ID had ever existed. They even changed
their name to COPE for around 8 years in order to sell the switch scam >without having ID in the name of their organization.
The Louisiana rubes didn't bend over for the switch scam until 2008, and
had to have the bait and switch run on them a second time when they
tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their public schools in
2009. Texas didn't pass their switch scam state school board junk until >2010 and both Louisiana and Texas had the bait and switch run on them
again when both states tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their >public schools in 2013.
The ID movement has just been using ID as bait for over 23 years. Dover
hit the fan and the bait and switch failed 3 years after the ID perps
began running the bait and switch scam on any creationist rubes that had >believed them about having any ID science to teach in the public
schools. The Dover rubes were just too stupid and ignorant to know that
the ID perps were then ones that were selling the teach ID scam at that >time, so they didn't take the switch scam and tried to teach ID anyway.
If anything the ID movement died when the bait and switch started to go
down in 2002. Nelson started claiming that the ID science had never >existed, but that the ID perps were working on creating some, and IDiots >like Mike Gene admitted that he had given up on teaching the ID scam
junk back in 1999. ID has just been used as bait for over 23 years.
The ID movement should have never started the bait and switch scam that
is only run on their own creationist support base, but once the bait and >switch scam started it likely should have died after Dover, but the scam >artists could not give up on the original Wedge mission that the ID
perps had signed up to accomplish. The obfuscation and denial switch
scam is their only way forward in trying to accomplish their Wedge
goals, and the only way that they can get the rubes to try it is to use
ID as bait. COPE had a 100% failure rate for trying to sell creationist >rubes the switch scam without using ID as bait. Creationists just do
not want to teach their kids enough science for them to understand what
they have to deny if they can't tell them the religious reason for lying
to them.
Ron Okimoto
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 20:01:38 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
https://scienceandculture.com/2025/12/ten-myths-about-dover-no-10-the-intelligent-design-movement-died-after-dover/
Has anyone ever claimed that the ID creationist scam died after Dover?
It was never taken seriously by anyone with a clue after that, but it
definitely did not die. We had IDiots posting to TO until the ID perps
screwed up and put out their Top Six best evidences for the ID scam in
the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.
What happened after Dover was IDists moved their efforts to supporting curricula in private schools, under the guise of religious expression.
Their efforts gained even more traction as Trump, the Republican
Party, and the MAGA movement weaponized fundamentalist religious
groups for political gain. And their efforts went into overdrive as
Trump's SCOTUS judges handed down decisions to support bigotry under
the guise of religious freedom.
In fact, the ID perps doubled down on the bait and switch scam after
Dover, and they started claiming that the judges decision was wrong, and
that even though ID had been found to be illegal to teach in the Dover
public schools that the ID scam could still be taught outside of the
middle federal court district of PA. The ID perps continue to run the
bait and switch ID scam to this day. West Virginia, North and South
Dakota are evidence of that. The ID perps are the only creationist
organization left still selling the rubes on the teach ID creationist
ploy. The ID network quit selling the teach ID ploy when the bait and
switch started to go down, and they concentrated on selling the switch
scam that didn't mention that ID had ever existed. They even changed
their name to COPE for around 8 years in order to sell the switch scam
without having ID in the name of their organization.
The Louisiana rubes didn't bend over for the switch scam until 2008, and
had to have the bait and switch run on them a second time when they
tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their public schools in
2009. Texas didn't pass their switch scam state school board junk until
2010 and both Louisiana and Texas had the bait and switch run on them
again when both states tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their
public schools in 2013.
The ID movement has just been using ID as bait for over 23 years. Dover
hit the fan and the bait and switch failed 3 years after the ID perps
began running the bait and switch scam on any creationist rubes that had
believed them about having any ID science to teach in the public
schools. The Dover rubes were just too stupid and ignorant to know that
the ID perps were then ones that were selling the teach ID scam at that
time, so they didn't take the switch scam and tried to teach ID anyway.
If anything the ID movement died when the bait and switch started to go
down in 2002. Nelson started claiming that the ID science had never
existed, but that the ID perps were working on creating some, and IDiots
like Mike Gene admitted that he had given up on teaching the ID scam
junk back in 1999. ID has just been used as bait for over 23 years.
The ID movement should have never started the bait and switch scam that
is only run on their own creationist support base, but once the bait and
switch scam started it likely should have died after Dover, but the scam
artists could not give up on the original Wedge mission that the ID
perps had signed up to accomplish. The obfuscation and denial switch
scam is their only way forward in trying to accomplish their Wedge
goals, and the only way that they can get the rubes to try it is to use
ID as bait. COPE had a 100% failure rate for trying to sell creationist
rubes the switch scam without using ID as bait. Creationists just do
not want to teach their kids enough science for them to understand what
they have to deny if they can't tell them the religious reason for lying
to them.
Ron Okimoto
On 12/15/2025 7:51 AM, jillery wrote:I don't mind refreshing your memory:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 20:01:38 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
https://scienceandculture.com/2025/12/ten-myths-about-dover-no-10-the-intelligent-design-movement-died-after-dover/
Has anyone ever claimed that the ID creationist scam died after Dover?
It was never taken seriously by anyone with a clue after that, but it
definitely did not die. We had IDiots posting to TO until the ID perps
screwed up and put out their Top Six best evidences for the ID scam in
the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.
What happened after Dover was IDists moved their efforts to supporting
curricula in private schools, under the guise of religious expression.
Their efforts gained even more traction as Trump, the Republican
Party, and the MAGA movement weaponized fundamentalist religious
groups for political gain. And their efforts went into overdrive as
Trump's SCOTUS judges handed down decisions to support bigotry under
the guise of religious freedom.
I do not recall the ID perps ever pushing teaching the ID scam in
private schools.
At one time they had a home school lesson plan, but it--
was mostly anti evolution and how that related to the families religious >beliefs. Dembski was forced to apologize to his college students for >telling them that the earth may be older than a few thousand years old,
and that the flood may have been a local flood. If he had not
apologized he would have been fired. As it was his contract was not >renewed.
The ID perps have been claiming that their ID science can be taught in
the public schools for nearly 30 years, but they have never produced a >public school lesson plan that presented what could be taught and how
they thought that it could be taught. Even their home school lesson
plan did not teach much about the ID scam, and they openly claimed that
it was not suitable for public schools as a disclaimer. That lesson
plan doesn't seem to be available any longer at their web site. It
seemed to spend a lot of time trying to assure the parent that ID was >religiously kosher. Their problem likely is that most of their
creationist support base (it has always been YEC) would not want to
teach their kids the "evidence" that the ID perps claim to have
supporting ID science. It is all non Biblical, and old earth gap
denial. YEC would not want to teach their kids the junk so that they
could place the denial into context with reality. Just think what a
flop ID would be if they taught the Top Six honestly in the order in
which they must have occurred in this universe along with relevant >contextual information.
Ron Okimoto
In fact, the ID perps doubled down on the bait and switch scam after
Dover, and they started claiming that the judges decision was wrong, and >>> that even though ID had been found to be illegal to teach in the Dover
public schools that the ID scam could still be taught outside of the
middle federal court district of PA. The ID perps continue to run the
bait and switch ID scam to this day. West Virginia, North and South
Dakota are evidence of that. The ID perps are the only creationist
organization left still selling the rubes on the teach ID creationist
ploy. The ID network quit selling the teach ID ploy when the bait and
switch started to go down, and they concentrated on selling the switch
scam that didn't mention that ID had ever existed. They even changed
their name to COPE for around 8 years in order to sell the switch scam
without having ID in the name of their organization.
The Louisiana rubes didn't bend over for the switch scam until 2008, and >>> had to have the bait and switch run on them a second time when they
tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their public schools in
2009. Texas didn't pass their switch scam state school board junk until >>> 2010 and both Louisiana and Texas had the bait and switch run on them
again when both states tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their >>> public schools in 2013.
The ID movement has just been using ID as bait for over 23 years. Dover >>> hit the fan and the bait and switch failed 3 years after the ID perps
began running the bait and switch scam on any creationist rubes that had >>> believed them about having any ID science to teach in the public
schools. The Dover rubes were just too stupid and ignorant to know that >>> the ID perps were then ones that were selling the teach ID scam at that
time, so they didn't take the switch scam and tried to teach ID anyway.
If anything the ID movement died when the bait and switch started to go
down in 2002. Nelson started claiming that the ID science had never
existed, but that the ID perps were working on creating some, and IDiots >>> like Mike Gene admitted that he had given up on teaching the ID scam
junk back in 1999. ID has just been used as bait for over 23 years.
The ID movement should have never started the bait and switch scam that
is only run on their own creationist support base, but once the bait and >>> switch scam started it likely should have died after Dover, but the scam >>> artists could not give up on the original Wedge mission that the ID
perps had signed up to accomplish. The obfuscation and denial switch
scam is their only way forward in trying to accomplish their Wedge
goals, and the only way that they can get the rubes to try it is to use
ID as bait. COPE had a 100% failure rate for trying to sell creationist >>> rubes the switch scam without using ID as bait. Creationists just do
not want to teach their kids enough science for them to understand what
they have to deny if they can't tell them the religious reason for lying >>> to them.
Ron Okimoto
On Mon, 15 Dec 2025 12:15:59 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
On 12/15/2025 7:51 AM, jillery wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 20:01:38 -0600, RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
wrote:
https://scienceandculture.com/2025/12/ten-myths-about-dover-no-10-the-intelligent-design-movement-died-after-dover/
Has anyone ever claimed that the ID creationist scam died after Dover? >>>> It was never taken seriously by anyone with a clue after that, but it
definitely did not die. We had IDiots posting to TO until the ID perps >>>> screwed up and put out their Top Six best evidences for the ID scam in >>>> the order in which they must have occurred in this universe.
What happened after Dover was IDists moved their efforts to supporting
curricula in private schools, under the guise of religious expression.
Their efforts gained even more traction as Trump, the Republican
Party, and the MAGA movement weaponized fundamentalist religious
groups for political gain. And their efforts went into overdrive as
Trump's SCOTUS judges handed down decisions to support bigotry under
the guise of religious freedom.
I do not recall the ID perps ever pushing teaching the ID scam in
private schools.
I don't mind refreshing your memory:
People like Stephen Meyer, a longtime ID advocate, has teamed up with
Prager University to spread the word:
<https://intelligentdesign.org/prageru/>
And there's this from Google:
************************************
An Intelligent Design (ID) curriculum, primarily from the Discovery
Institute and Sapience Institute , offers materials like textbooks
(e.g., Discovering Intelligent Design), workbooks, and DVDs for
homeschoolers and private schools, presenting biological and
cosmological arguments for an intelligent cause behind life's
complexity, often integrating ID concepts into biology or offering
standalone courses for critical thinking on evolution, focusing on
evidence for design in nature and questioning aspects of Darwinian
evolution
**************************************
And you previously provided this link:
<https://scienceandgod.org/resources/>
At one time they had a home school lesson plan, but it
was mostly anti evolution and how that related to the families religious
beliefs. Dembski was forced to apologize to his college students for
telling them that the earth may be older than a few thousand years old,
and that the flood may have been a local flood. If he had not
apologized he would have been fired. As it was his contract was not
renewed.
The ID perps have been claiming that their ID science can be taught in
the public schools for nearly 30 years, but they have never produced a
public school lesson plan that presented what could be taught and how
they thought that it could be taught. Even their home school lesson
plan did not teach much about the ID scam, and they openly claimed that
it was not suitable for public schools as a disclaimer. That lesson
plan doesn't seem to be available any longer at their web site. It
seemed to spend a lot of time trying to assure the parent that ID was
religiously kosher. Their problem likely is that most of their
creationist support base (it has always been YEC) would not want to
teach their kids the "evidence" that the ID perps claim to have
supporting ID science. It is all non Biblical, and old earth gap
denial. YEC would not want to teach their kids the junk so that they
could place the denial into context with reality. Just think what a
flop ID would be if they taught the Top Six honestly in the order in
which they must have occurred in this universe along with relevant
contextual information.
Ron Okimoto
In fact, the ID perps doubled down on the bait and switch scam after
Dover, and they started claiming that the judges decision was wrong, and >>>> that even though ID had been found to be illegal to teach in the Dover >>>> public schools that the ID scam could still be taught outside of the
middle federal court district of PA. The ID perps continue to run the >>>> bait and switch ID scam to this day. West Virginia, North and South
Dakota are evidence of that. The ID perps are the only creationist
organization left still selling the rubes on the teach ID creationist
ploy. The ID network quit selling the teach ID ploy when the bait and >>>> switch started to go down, and they concentrated on selling the switch >>>> scam that didn't mention that ID had ever existed. They even changed
their name to COPE for around 8 years in order to sell the switch scam >>>> without having ID in the name of their organization.
The Louisiana rubes didn't bend over for the switch scam until 2008, and >>>> had to have the bait and switch run on them a second time when they
tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their public schools in
2009. Texas didn't pass their switch scam state school board junk until >>>> 2010 and both Louisiana and Texas had the bait and switch run on them
again when both states tried to use the switch scam to teach ID in their >>>> public schools in 2013.
The ID movement has just been using ID as bait for over 23 years. Dover >>>> hit the fan and the bait and switch failed 3 years after the ID perps
began running the bait and switch scam on any creationist rubes that had >>>> believed them about having any ID science to teach in the public
schools. The Dover rubes were just too stupid and ignorant to know that >>>> the ID perps were then ones that were selling the teach ID scam at that >>>> time, so they didn't take the switch scam and tried to teach ID anyway. >>>>
If anything the ID movement died when the bait and switch started to go >>>> down in 2002. Nelson started claiming that the ID science had never
existed, but that the ID perps were working on creating some, and IDiots >>>> like Mike Gene admitted that he had given up on teaching the ID scam
junk back in 1999. ID has just been used as bait for over 23 years.
The ID movement should have never started the bait and switch scam that >>>> is only run on their own creationist support base, but once the bait and >>>> switch scam started it likely should have died after Dover, but the scam >>>> artists could not give up on the original Wedge mission that the ID
perps had signed up to accomplish. The obfuscation and denial switch
scam is their only way forward in trying to accomplish their Wedge
goals, and the only way that they can get the rubes to try it is to use >>>> ID as bait. COPE had a 100% failure rate for trying to sell creationist >>>> rubes the switch scam without using ID as bait. Creationists just do
not want to teach their kids enough science for them to understand what >>>> they have to deny if they can't tell them the religious reason for lying >>>> to them.
Ron Okimoto
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