• Re: Latest on Neanderthal DNA

    From RonO@rokimoto557@gmail.com to talk-origins on Tue Nov 18 09:18:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments of
    DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past introgressions
    with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to have interbred
    with a population of Homo that left Africa around a half a million
    years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently interbred with humans from
    Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some extant modern humans are
    descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and have bits of Denisovan DNA
    and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All of the extant humans descended
    from those that left Africa around 60,000 years ago have bits of
    Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as well as bits of DNA from the
    previous migration out of Africa (250,000 years ago) that we got from
    Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and extant
    genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo that
    they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died
    out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous
    estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and
    500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to
    60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it
    out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of this
    Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous out of
    Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding
    with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the
    interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead
    ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in Indonesia
    and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought to be just part of
    the variation that left Africa even though you can't find them in Africa
    nor among the fossils of the early immigrants that left Africa.-a I just
    saw a picture of Trump with the wind blowing his hair back, and he has
    the sloped forehead of Neanderthal and Homo erectus.-a Neanderthals had a larger cranial capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.-a Looking at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they got their foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication
    that physical traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still segregating
    in the modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair to hide this
    feature so my guess is that he is aware that he has this cosmetic
    feature of Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look
    like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids. Trumps hairdo hides the difference
    between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-history-of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do not
    note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in the
    picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have. The article is paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine what
    they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he would
    go unnoticed in the population. They had much larger noses, brow
    ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From erik simpson@eastside.erik@gmail.com to talk-origins on Tue Nov 18 08:32:42 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments of
    DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to
    have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa around a
    half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently interbred
    with humans from Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some extant modern
    humans are descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and have bits of
    Denisovan DNA and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All of the extant
    humans descended from those that left Africa around 60,000 years ago
    have bits of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as well as bits of DNA
    from the previous migration out of Africa (250,000 years ago) that we
    got from Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and extant
    genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo that
    they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died
    out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous
    estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and
    500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to
    60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it
    out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of this
    Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous out of
    Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding
    with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the
    interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead
    ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we knew
    about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought to be
    just part of the variation that left Africa even though you can't find
    them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early immigrants that left
    Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with the wind blowing his hair
    back, and he has the sloped forehead of Neanderthal and Homo erectus.
    Neanderthals had a larger cranial capacity than modern humans, but
    they didn't have foreheads.-a Looking at Trump with his adult offspring
    you can tell that they got their foreheads from their mother.-a It is
    just an indication that physical traits and not just Neanderthal DNA
    are still segregating in the modern human population.-a Trump styles
    his hair to hide this feature so my guess is that he is aware that he
    has this cosmetic feature of Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look
    like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a dominant
    phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the difference between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-history-of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in the
    picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article is paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine what
    they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he would
    go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses, brow
    ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal
    genes? Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be
    insulting to Neanderthals. My impression is that most people not now
    living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From RonO@rokimoto557@gmail.com to talk-origins on Tue Nov 18 18:41:45 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/18/2025 10:32 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments of
    DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to
    have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa around a
    half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently interbred >>>> with humans from Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some extant
    modern humans are descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and have
    bits of Denisovan DNA and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All of the
    extant humans descended from those that left Africa around 60,000
    years ago have bits of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as well as
    bits of DNA from the previous migration out of Africa (250,000 years
    ago) that we got from Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and
    extant genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo
    that they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died
    out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous
    estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and
    500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to
    60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it
    out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of this
    Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous out of
    Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding
    with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the
    interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead
    ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we
    knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought
    to be just part of the variation that left Africa even though you
    can't find them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early
    immigrants that left Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with the
    wind blowing his hair back, and he has the sloped forehead of
    Neanderthal and Homo erectus. Neanderthals had a larger cranial
    capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.-a Looking
    at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they got their
    foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication that physical
    traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still segregating in the
    modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair to hide this feature
    so my guess is that he is aware that he has this cosmetic feature of
    Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look
    like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a
    dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-
    president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the difference
    between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-history-
    of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do
    not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in
    the picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article is
    paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine
    what they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he
    would go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses,
    brow ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal genes?-a Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be insulting to Neanderthals.-a My impression is that most people not now living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.


    There is nothing racist about this reality. The sloped forehead or the Denisovan brow ridges are just cosmetic features. Everyone that is
    decended from the group of Modern humans that left Africa around 60,000
    years ago have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA in their genomes. Most
    of it is the same 20% of the Neanderthal genome dispersed in most of us (possibly, due to selection), but the claim is that if you sequence over 100,000 out of Africa genomes that they might be able to account for
    around 80% of the Neanderthal genome. Certain populations of Europeans
    and Asians may have more Neanderthal DNA than most others, and they
    think that is just due to founder effects because they have the same
    portion of the Neanderthal genome that the rest of us have, they just
    have more of it. Though they have found fossils of hybrids in Europe
    and Asia that occurred more recently than the first introgression it
    doesn't look like the Neanderthal DNA in those hybrids made it into the
    extant population. They look like dead end family groups that left no ancestors, or not a significant number to leave much of a trace today.

    This just means that for an obviously recessive or complex trait like
    the sloped forehead it should be rare to get the Neanderthal genes
    together to produce that phenotype. Trump did not pass the trait to his progeny so it is recessive or you need multiple Neanderthal gene
    variants to see the trait. Some Europeans sport Neanderthal brow
    ridges. They are not as pronounced as the Denisovan brow ridges of the Australoids. My guess is that the Australoid brow ridges were likely
    selected by sexual selection among that group, though some New Guineans
    have 12% Denisovan DNA (just 2 generations from the hybrid generation,
    if all matings were backcrosses with modern humans, would produce 12.5% Denisovan DNA). This is a significant amount, but a lot of the
    individuals from the same population have a lot less, but still sport
    the heavy brow ridges. It may be a trait that was preferred for some
    reason.

    Ron Okimoto

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From erik simpson@eastside.erik@gmail.com to talk-origins on Tue Nov 18 17:09:12 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/18/25 4:41 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/18/2025 10:32 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments
    of DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to >>>>> have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa around a
    half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently
    interbred with humans from Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some
    extant modern humans are descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and >>>>> have bits of Denisovan DNA and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All
    of the extant humans descended from those that left Africa around
    60,000 years ago have bits of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as
    well as bits of DNA from the previous migration out of Africa
    (250,000 years ago) that we got from Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and
    extant genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo
    that they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died >>>>> out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous >>>>> estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and >>>>> 500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to >>>>> 60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it >>>>> out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of
    this Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous
    out of Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding >>>>> with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the >>>>> interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead >>>>> ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we
    knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought
    to be just part of the variation that left Africa even though you
    can't find them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early
    immigrants that left Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with the >>>> wind blowing his hair back, and he has the sloped forehead of
    Neanderthal and Homo erectus. Neanderthals had a larger cranial
    capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.
    Looking at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they got
    their foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication that
    physical traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still segregating
    in the modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair to hide this
    feature so my guess is that he is aware that he has this cosmetic
    feature of Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look >>>> like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a
    dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-
    president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the difference
    between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-history- of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do
    not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in
    the picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article
    is paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine
    what they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he
    would go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses,
    brow ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football
    shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal
    genes?-a Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be
    insulting to Neanderthals.-a My impression is that most people not now
    living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.


    There is nothing racist about this reality.-a The sloped forehead or the Denisovan brow ridges are just cosmetic features.-a Everyone that is decended from the group of Modern humans that left Africa around 60,000 years ago have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA in their genomes.-a Most
    of it is the same 20% of the Neanderthal genome dispersed in most of us (possibly, due to selection), but the claim is that if you sequence over 100,000 out of Africa genomes that they might be able to account for
    around 80% of the Neanderthal genome.-a Certain populations of Europeans
    and Asians may have more Neanderthal DNA than most others, and they
    think that is just due to founder effects because they have the same
    portion of the Neanderthal genome that the rest of us have, they just
    have more of it.-a Though they have found fossils of hybrids in Europe
    and Asia that occurred more recently than the first introgression it
    doesn't look like the Neanderthal DNA in those hybrids made it into the extant population.-a They look like dead end family groups that left no ancestors, or not a significant number to leave much of a trace today.

    This just means that for an obviously recessive or complex trait like
    the sloped forehead it should be rare to get the Neanderthal genes
    together to produce that phenotype.-a Trump did not pass the trait to his progeny so it is recessive or you need multiple Neanderthal gene
    variants to see the trait.-a Some Europeans sport Neanderthal brow
    ridges.-a They are not as pronounced as the Denisovan brow ridges of the Australoids.-a My guess is that the Australoid brow ridges were likely selected by sexual selection among that group, though some New Guineans
    have 12% Denisovan DNA (just 2 generations from the hybrid generation,
    if all matings were backcrosses with modern humans, would produce 12.5% Denisovan DNA).-a This is a significant amount, but a lot of the
    individuals from the same population have a lot less, but still sport
    the heavy brow ridges.-a It may be a trait that was preferred for some reason.

    Ron Okimoto

    I was just joking. I know I have ~2% Neanderthal contribution, but have
    a more or less vertical forehead and no prominent brow ridges. All
    that's due to my predominantly northwest european (England, Scotland,
    Wales, Norway.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ernest Major@{$to$}@meden.demon.co.uk to talk-origins on Wed Nov 19 07:14:16 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 18/11/2025 16:32, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments of
    DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to
    have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa around a
    half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently interbred >>>> with humans from Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some extant
    modern humans are descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and have
    bits of Denisovan DNA and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All of the
    extant humans descended from those that left Africa around 60,000
    years ago have bits of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as well as
    bits of DNA from the previous migration out of Africa (250,000 years
    ago) that we got from Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and
    extant genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo
    that they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died
    out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous
    estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and
    500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to
    60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it
    out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of this
    Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous out of
    Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding
    with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the
    interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead
    ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we
    knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought
    to be just part of the variation that left Africa even though you
    can't find them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early
    immigrants that left Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with the
    wind blowing his hair back, and he has the sloped forehead of
    Neanderthal and Homo erectus. Neanderthals had a larger cranial
    capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.-a Looking
    at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they got their
    foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication that physical
    traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still segregating in the
    modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair to hide this feature
    so my guess is that he is aware that he has this cosmetic feature of
    Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look
    like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a
    dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-
    president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the difference
    between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-history-
    of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do
    not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in
    the picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article is
    paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine
    what they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he
    would go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses,
    brow ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal genes?-a Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be insulting to Neanderthals.-a My impression is that most people not now living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.


    sub-Saharan Africans also have Neanderthal markers, but at a level about
    an order of magnitude less.
    --
    alias Ernest Major

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From RonO@rokimoto557@gmail.com to talk-origins on Wed Nov 19 11:14:16 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/18/2025 7:09 PM, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 4:41 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/18/2025 10:32 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments >>>>>> of DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced. >>>>>> Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem >>>>>> to have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa
    around a half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals
    apparently interbred with humans from Africa around 250,000 years >>>>>> ago.-a Some extant modern humans are descendants of hybrids with
    Denisovans and have bits of Denisovan DNA and the more archaic
    Homo genome.-a All of the extant humans descended from those that >>>>>> left Africa around 60,000 years ago have bits of Neanderthal DNA
    in their genomes as well as bits of DNA from the previous
    migration out of Africa (250,000 years ago) that we got from
    Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and
    extant genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago. >>>>>> Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo
    that they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and >>>>>> interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population
    died out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.
    Previous estimates of this interbreeding event have been between
    200,000 and 500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000
    to 60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that
    made it out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and
    some of this Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a
    previous out of Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans
    interbreeding with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years
    ago and since the interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these
    instances seem to be dead ends that haven't left evidence in
    extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we
    knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought >>>>> to be just part of the variation that left Africa even though you
    can't find them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early
    immigrants that left Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with
    the wind blowing his hair back, and he has the sloped forehead of
    Neanderthal and Homo erectus. Neanderthals had a larger cranial
    capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.
    Looking at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they
    got their foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication
    that physical traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still
    segregating in the modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair >>>>> to hide this feature so my guess is that he is aware that he has
    this cosmetic feature of Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't
    look like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a
    dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-
    vice- president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the
    difference between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-
    history- of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do
    not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in
    the picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article
    is paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to
    determine what they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he
    would go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses,
    brow ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football
    shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal
    genes?-a Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be
    insulting to Neanderthals.-a My impression is that most people not now
    living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.


    There is nothing racist about this reality.-a The sloped forehead or
    the Denisovan brow ridges are just cosmetic features.-a Everyone that
    is decended from the group of Modern humans that left Africa around
    60,000 years ago have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA in their
    genomes.-a Most of it is the same 20% of the Neanderthal genome
    dispersed in most of us (possibly, due to selection), but the claim is
    that if you sequence over 100,000 out of Africa genomes that they
    might be able to account for around 80% of the Neanderthal genome.
    Certain populations of Europeans and Asians may have more Neanderthal
    DNA than most others, and they think that is just due to founder
    effects because they have the same portion of the Neanderthal genome
    that the rest of us have, they just have more of it.-a Though they have
    found fossils of hybrids in Europe and Asia that occurred more
    recently than the first introgression it doesn't look like the
    Neanderthal DNA in those hybrids made it into the extant population.
    They look like dead end family groups that left no ancestors, or not a
    significant number to leave much of a trace today.

    This just means that for an obviously recessive or complex trait like
    the sloped forehead it should be rare to get the Neanderthal genes
    together to produce that phenotype.-a Trump did not pass the trait to
    his progeny so it is recessive or you need multiple Neanderthal gene
    variants to see the trait.-a Some Europeans sport Neanderthal brow
    ridges.-a They are not as pronounced as the Denisovan brow ridges of
    the Australoids.-a My guess is that the Australoid brow ridges were
    likely selected by sexual selection among that group, though some New
    Guineans have 12% Denisovan DNA (just 2 generations from the hybrid
    generation, if all matings were backcrosses with modern humans, would
    produce 12.5% Denisovan DNA).-a This is a significant amount, but a lot
    of the individuals from the same population have a lot less, but still
    sport the heavy brow ridges.-a It may be a trait that was preferred for
    some reason.

    Ron Okimoto

    I was just joking.-a I know I have ~2% Neanderthal contribution, but have
    a more or less vertical forehead and no prominent brow ridges.-a All
    that's due to my predominantly northwest european (England, Scotland,
    Wales, Norway.

    Iceland indicates that their Viking ancestors may have had a higher
    percentage of Neanderthal genetics than for most of Europe. Probably
    due to founder effects.

    23 and Me claims that I have less than 2% Neanderthal ancestry and that
    only 21% of their customers have less Neanderthal DNA, so I am on the
    low side. They now claim 100% certainty that I am from the Hiroshima prefecture of Japan. This is true because all 4 of my grand parents
    were born in Hiroshima before migrating to the US.

    23 and Me no longer list my ancestral connection with Hokaido. A lot of Japanese are offended by the connection because the Ainu had been
    treated as second class citizens at one time. The stupid thing about
    being offended is that the genetic evidence indicates that the Samurai
    class may have been influenced by the army that some prince brought back
    from his exile to Hokaido. So there is a very good reason why a lot of
    main island japanese have genetics from Hokaido, and these genetics are
    more common among the Samurai class. There was a research paper that I
    say decades ago about Ainu ancestry among the Samurai class, and it is
    only referenced with a brief claim of Ainu genetic influence in early
    Samurai in a YouTube video on the subject Samurai genetics around 18
    minutes into the video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQeQUALpnzY

    Ron Okimoto

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From RonO@rokimoto557@gmail.com to talk-origins on Wed Nov 19 11:33:48 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/19/2025 1:14 AM, Ernest Major wrote:
    On 18/11/2025 16:32, erik simpson wrote:
    On 11/18/25 7:18 AM, RonO wrote:
    On 11/14/2025 8:38 PM, RonO wrote:
    On 7/21/2024 8:53 AM, RonO wrote:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adi1768

    The article seems to be open access.

    The article claims to be able to identify the origin of fragments
    of DNA in the ancient and extant genomes that have been sequenced.
    Neanderthal and Denisovan genomes show evidence of past
    introgressions with other Homo populations.-a The Denisovans seem to >>>>> have interbred with a population of Homo that left Africa around a
    half a million years before them.-a Neanderthals apparently
    interbred with humans from Africa around 250,000 years ago.-a Some
    extant modern humans are descendants of hybrids with Denisovans and >>>>> have bits of Denisovan DNA and the more archaic Homo genome.-a All
    of the extant humans descended from those that left Africa around
    60,000 years ago have bits of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes as
    well as bits of DNA from the previous migration out of Africa
    (250,000 years ago) that we got from Neanderthals.

    They have a time line based on their reanalysis of archaic and
    extant genomes.

    Neanderthals and Denisovans left Africa around 600,000 years ago.
    Previous estimates range from 500,000 to 800,000 years ago.

    At some point the Denisovans interbred with a population of Homo
    that they met in Asia.

    Modern humans ventured out of Africa around 250,000 years ago and
    interbred with Neanderthals, but the African humans population died >>>>> out or was incorporated into the Neanderthal population.-a Previous >>>>> estimates of this interbreeding event have been between 200,000 and >>>>> 500,000 years from my recollections.

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to >>>>> 60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it >>>>> out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of
    this Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous
    out of Africa migration.

    There is fossil DNA evidence for other African humans interbreeding >>>>> with Neanderthal between 60,000 and 250,000 years ago and since the >>>>> interbreeding 60,000 years ago, but these instances seem to be dead >>>>> ends that haven't left evidence in extant populations.

    Ron Okimoto


    We've talked about Neanderthal DNA in our genomes and we now have
    evidence that the heavy brow ridges found among Australoids in
    Indonesia and Australia came from Denisovan admixture.-a Before we
    knew about the Denisovan introgression the brow ridges were thought
    to be just part of the variation that left Africa even though you
    can't find them in Africa nor among the fossils of the early
    immigrants that left Africa.-a I just saw a picture of Trump with the >>>> wind blowing his hair back, and he has the sloped forehead of
    Neanderthal and Homo erectus. Neanderthals had a larger cranial
    capacity than modern humans, but they didn't have foreheads.
    Looking at Trump with his adult offspring you can tell that they got
    their foreheads from their mother.-a It is just an indication that
    physical traits and not just Neanderthal DNA are still segregating
    in the modern human population.-a Trump styles his hair to hide this
    feature so my guess is that he is aware that he has this cosmetic
    feature of Neanderthals.

    Probably just something to add to the Trump legacy.-a It dosen't look >>>> like he passed it down to his offspring, so it likely isn't a
    dominant phenotype.

    Ron Okimoto


    https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/14/politics/donald-trump-mike-pence-vice-
    president-children

    A picture of Trump with his kids.-a Trumps hairdo hides the difference
    between his forehead and all of theirs.

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/photos/2015/09/an-illustrated-
    history- of-donald-trumps-hair

    Vanity Fair notes the strange way Trump styles his hair, but they do
    not note that it is to hide his sloped forehead, but you can tell in
    the picture on the right that he does not have the forehead that his
    children and most of the Modern human population have.-a The article
    is paywalled, and I did not pay to read the full article to determine
    what they concluded about Trump's hair style.

    Gish used to claim that if you put a hat on a Neanderthal that he
    would go unnoticed in the population.-a They had much larger noses,
    brow ridges, a sloped forehead and a skull that was more football
    shaped.

    Ron Okimoto

    Are you suggesting that Trump has more than his share of Neanderthal
    genes?-a Let's not allow this to become a racist question; could be
    insulting to Neanderthals.-a My impression is that most people not now
    living in sub-Saharan Africa have Neanderthal or Denisovan genetic
    markers, sometimes both.


    sub-Saharan Africans also have Neanderthal markers, but at a level about
    an order of magnitude less.


    There has been around 60,000 years for the hybrids to migrate back to
    Africa with evidence that one such back migration occurred 45,000 years
    ago. There is also the fact that some of the ancient variation still segregates in Sub-Saharan Africa and it did not all leave with the Neanderthals sub population when it left Africa and This variation was
    fixed among Neanderthals, but still segregates in Africa.

    Ron Okimoto

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From JTEM@jtem01@gmail.com to talk-origins on Wed Nov 19 12:47:55 2025
    From Newsgroup: talk.origins

    On 11/14/25 9:38 PM, RonO wrote:

    Modern humans left Africa and interbred with Neanderthals 50,000 to
    60,000 years ago.-a The extant modern human populations that made it
    out of Africa have a couple percent Neanderthal DNA and some of this
    Neanderthal DNA is the 250,000 year old bits from a previous out of
    Africa migration.

    How are you pretending to have worked out that it wasn't the other way
    around?

    A lot -- most, nearly all, all -- is consistent with the flow moving
    into Africa, not from.

    But thank you for making such an amazingly good point for a change:

    What is called "Science" is often the perversion of sick people.

    "I don't like Trump so, SCIENCE!"

    Science, the scientific process was actually created to eliminate the
    human element, and here you are demonstrating how inferior people are
    always trying to pervert it to suit your idiocy.

    If you don't like Trump then say you don't like Trump. There is a
    certain percentage of the population who do view this as an
    achievement... as if anyone else cares. But when you exercise your
    perversions on science because you don't like Trump, you are exactly
    equal to any creationist -- acting out your emotions.

    But, again, thank you for always making me look so brilliant, so
    much superior to the collective... I couldn't have done it without
    you and your problems.

    Thank you.
    --
    https://jtem.tumblr.com/tagged/The%20Book%20of%20JTEM/page/5

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2