• Re: Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet always get null results?

    From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to sci.physics.relativity on Sun Mar 1 10:45:22 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 02/28/2026 01:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    Lense-Thirring disagrees.

    Too bad for them. Fortunately for them
    it is only your interpretation of them which is wromg,

    Jan

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  • From amirjf nin@amirjfnin@aim.com to sci.physics.relativity on Sun Mar 1 20:42:49 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?
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  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 02:44:45 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 02/28/2026 03:17 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 02/28/2026 01:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Lense-Thirring disagrees.

    There is nobody named "Lense-Thirring" who could disagree.

    The Lense--Thirring effect (named after Josef Lense and Hans Thirring)
    is a frame-dragging effect. It has nothing to do with an aether:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precession>

    You are merely arguing from your ignorance.

    No, I think that's "I'm arguing from _your_ ignorance".

    *facepalm*

    About why Lense-Thirring, the experiment, measured frame-dragging:
    it's the same as aether drift.

    It is not. You have no clue.

    You, sir, are not-quite-invincibly ignorant.

    You are insane.
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 03:07:12 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    amirjf nin wrote:
    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    It doesn't. von Laue had already disproved Sagnac's false interpretation several years before Sagnac even made his claim. That we call it "the
    Sagnac effect" regardless may be considered an irony of history:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagnac_effect#History>

    As for aether dragging: The MMX and subsequent experiments falsified partial aether dragging and a stationary aether (i.e. no aether dragging). Stellar aberration had already falsified complete aether dragging as early as 1725 (Bradley):

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberration_(astronomy)#James_Bradley's_observations>

    So, simple aether models simply did/do not work; and since Einstein showed
    more than 100 years ago (in 1905) that a luminiferous aether is a
    superfluous assumption, Poincar|-'s hypothesis at approximately the same time was rendered irrelevant, and today only crackpots still *want to believe* in
    an aether while the concept plays no role in modern physics:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories>
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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  • From nospam@nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 13:22:40 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Maciej_Wo=C5=BAniak?=@mlwozniak@wp.pl to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 13:37:08 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 3/2/2026 1:22 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND >>>> ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up >>>> with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results >>>> would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments >>>> should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    Almost. According to The Shit clocks should
    be identical in any frame, according to LET
    they should be set frame dependent. Anyone can
    check GPS, in the real world they are set
    frame dependent. LET has won, The Shit has
    lost, common sense has been warning your
    idiot guru.


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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 07:02:42 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND >>>> ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up >>>> with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results >>>> would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments >>>> should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan


    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,
    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,
    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and Finlay-Freundlich
    and Feynman and the list goes on, each of which
    involves in their discussions different energies and configurations
    of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise
    electromagnetic radiation are different, that radiation
    and current are different, that the kinetic and kinematic
    are different, about that wave-speed and wave-velocity
    are different, there are lots of ways to setup F-Lorentzians,
    and those each to see them fall apart.


    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",
    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",
    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators, and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".


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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 07:36:13 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 07:02 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND >>>>> ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone
    came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results >>>>> would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but >>> also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan


    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,
    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,
    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and Finlay-Freundlich
    and Feynman and the list goes on, each of which
    involves in their discussions different energies and configurations
    of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise
    electromagnetic radiation are different, that radiation
    and current are different, that the kinetic and kinematic
    are different, about that wave-speed and wave-velocity
    are different, there are lots of ways to setup F-Lorentzians,
    and those each to see them fall apart.


    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",
    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",
    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators, and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".



    Of course, that many accounts are only "first-order approximations"
    those being _partial_ and simply absent analyticity at the corners
    makes for that gyroscopic effects and effects in the viscoelastic
    and so on are plentifully scattered around as above the "quadratic",
    i.e. second-order, third-order.

    Lorentzians are partial, and the quadratic is a sort of "Flat Earth".


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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 09:09:55 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 07:36 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 07:02 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) >>>>>> AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone
    came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null
    results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR
    but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan


    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,
    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,
    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and Finlay-Freundlich
    and Feynman and the list goes on, each of which
    involves in their discussions different energies and configurations
    of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise
    electromagnetic radiation are different, that radiation
    and current are different, that the kinetic and kinematic
    are different, about that wave-speed and wave-velocity
    are different, there are lots of ways to setup F-Lorentzians,
    and those each to see them fall apart.


    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",
    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",
    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators, and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".



    Of course, that many accounts are only "first-order approximations"
    those being _partial_ and simply absent analyticity at the corners
    makes for that gyroscopic effects and effects in the viscoelastic
    and so on are plentifully scattered around as above the "quadratic",
    i.e. second-order, third-order.

    Lorentzians are partial, and the quadratic is a sort of "Flat Earth".



    https://www.google.com/search?q=Faraday+and+Fresnel+and+Fizeau+and+FitzGerald+and+Finlay-Freundlich+and+Feynman

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_physicists#F


    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, for example about Phythian.


    Heh, Fock-Ivanenko.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_Dirac_equation

    "Two common examples
    are the massive Thirring model
    and the Soler model. "


    The Fuchsian though has a lot going on with near-field/far-field.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Fuchs


    The regular singular points of the hypergeometric
    are zero, one: and infinity.


    How about an SU^N gauge theory, Poincare completion,
    the meromorphic and differintegro/integrodiffer,
    original analysis, and the like.


    It's a common enough thing to say "physics is a gauge theory".
    Generally considered to be somehow a "Lagrangian", then for
    along the lines of "T-Lagrangians" for "F-Lorentzians", about
    forces/fields F and time T. Maybe better C-Lagrangians for
    the "chronometry".

    Time symmetry never having been falsified and all, ....

    The idea of organizing physicists alphabetically
    to represent lettered categorizations is more a mnemonic device
    than any way more than an alphabetical coincidence. It's
    apropos for forces and fields and F-Lorentzians.



    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, about regular singular
    points of the integral variety. Goes well with Haar and
    the convolutional setting, about Parseval/Plancherel
    instead of L'Hopital/Rodrigues, not that there's anything
    wrong with Rodrigues, then about pointing out that de Moivre's
    identity about the Eulerian/Gaussian doesn't much make Gauss'
    account of "a hypergeometric" as being anything less than
    highly contrived.

    https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+near-field+far-field https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+spectral+gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_and_far_field


    I.e., "complex-analytic is not real-analytic".




    Why yes, I'd rather expect to collect these as sequential
    and paste them unexpurgated into a document and feed it
    to mechanical reasoners, to taste.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigues%27_formula

    About Legendre and into the convolutional setting,
    is for deconstructing Rodrigues formula also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendre_polynomials

    There are lots of Legendre polynomials.


    Anyways, physics is beholden to what mathematics says
    about it.


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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 09:23:16 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 09:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 07:36 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 07:02 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) >>>>>>> AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone
    came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null
    results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR >>>>> but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)? >>>>
    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan


    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,
    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,
    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and Finlay-Freundlich >>> and Feynman and the list goes on, each of which
    involves in their discussions different energies and configurations
    of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise
    electromagnetic radiation are different, that radiation
    and current are different, that the kinetic and kinematic
    are different, about that wave-speed and wave-velocity
    are different, there are lots of ways to setup F-Lorentzians,
    and those each to see them fall apart.


    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",
    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",
    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators, and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".



    Of course, that many accounts are only "first-order approximations"
    those being _partial_ and simply absent analyticity at the corners
    makes for that gyroscopic effects and effects in the viscoelastic
    and so on are plentifully scattered around as above the "quadratic",
    i.e. second-order, third-order.

    Lorentzians are partial, and the quadratic is a sort of "Flat Earth".



    https://www.google.com/search?q=Faraday+and+Fresnel+and+Fizeau+and+FitzGerald+and+Finlay-Freundlich+and+Feynman


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_physicists#F


    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, for example about Phythian.


    Heh, Fock-Ivanenko.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_Dirac_equation

    "Two common examples
    are the massive Thirring model
    and the Soler model. "


    The Fuchsian though has a lot going on with near-field/far-field.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Fuchs


    The regular singular points of the hypergeometric
    are zero, one: and infinity.


    How about an SU^N gauge theory, Poincare completion,
    the meromorphic and differintegro/integrodiffer,
    original analysis, and the like.


    It's a common enough thing to say "physics is a gauge theory".
    Generally considered to be somehow a "Lagrangian", then for
    along the lines of "T-Lagrangians" for "F-Lorentzians", about
    forces/fields F and time T. Maybe better C-Lagrangians for
    the "chronometry".

    Time symmetry never having been falsified and all, ....

    The idea of organizing physicists alphabetically
    to represent lettered categorizations is more a mnemonic device
    than any way more than an alphabetical coincidence. It's
    apropos for forces and fields and F-Lorentzians.



    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, about regular singular
    points of the integral variety. Goes well with Haar and
    the convolutional setting, about Parseval/Plancherel
    instead of L'Hopital/Rodrigues, not that there's anything
    wrong with Rodrigues, then about pointing out that de Moivre's
    identity about the Eulerian/Gaussian doesn't much make Gauss'
    account of "a hypergeometric" as being anything less than
    highly contrived.

    https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+near-field+far-field https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+spectral+gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_and_far_field


    I.e., "complex-analytic is not real-analytic".




    Why yes, I'd rather expect to collect these as sequential
    and paste them unexpurgated into a document and feed it
    to mechanical reasoners, to taste.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigues%27_formula

    About Legendre and into the convolutional setting,
    is for deconstructing Rodrigues formula also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendre_polynomials

    There are lots of Legendre polynomials.


    Anyways, physics is beholden to what mathematics says
    about it.



    "It was only when Einstein
    combined the work of Fresnel
    with that of Hippolyte Fizeau
    that the aether was ultimately banished."
    -- https://galileo-unbound.blog/2023/10/18/relativistic-velocity-addition-einsteins-crucial-insight/


    Ever pick up "Problem Book in Relativity"
    and find a problem about boost addition in it?

    Boost ain't velocity.

    Addition-formulae are very convenient,
    about usual attributes of arithmetizations.


    One time I picked up "Problem Book in Relativity
    and Gravitation" and found an inconsistent in it
    in about twenty or thirty, or less, minutes of reading.
    I suppose that was in that "Open Letter to Ross A. Finlayson"
    thread, who is pretty great.

    Of course, I'd already read a lot, ....



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  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 19:29:59 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:
    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND >>>>> ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up >>>>> with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results >>>>> would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments >>>>> should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but >>> also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    von Laue's analysis of what was later called "the Sagnac effect" might
    indicate that it is not.

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    That statement does not make sense. It is not even a complete sentence.

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,

    There is no such thing as a "Lorentzian" outside your very confused mind.

    One would use such a term in order to describe a function (like
    "Hamiltonian" instead of "Hamiltonian function" or -- less common --
    Hamilton's function), but there is no function that is called "Lorentzian" *itself*.

    That only leaves "Lorentzian" as an adjective, and your statement is missing
    a noun that goes with it, as in "Lorentzian _manifold_" (which is actually a proper term, and a concept in mathematics and theoretical physics: any spacetime is an example of a Lorentzian manifold).

    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,

    Word salad. The term "analytical setting" has no meaning, and the correct
    term is "Lorentz invariance" (which means "invariant under a Lorentz transformation").

    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and
    Finlay-Freundlich and Feynman and the list goes on,

    Only in your very confused mind. It is an example of clanging:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanging>

    each of which involves in their discussions different energies
    and configurations of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Nonsense.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    You do not know what that term means, so you should really stop using it
    until you do:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_mechanics>

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise

    "for examples, then that..." is grammatically wrong.

    electromagnetic radiation are different,

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    "c" is the (SI) symbol for _the speed_ of light, not for light itself.

    that radiation and current are different,

    Yes, they are, but not in the way you think:

    In physics, the first one is a phenomenon, and the second one is a physical quantity.

    that the kinetic and kinematic are different,

    "The kinetic" and "the kinematic" (your the wording implies the second
    "the") are not proper scientific terms. Those are terms that you invented,
    and they have no meaning to anyone else. "kinetic" and "kinematic" are adjectives, and there is no noun or verb in your text to go with them.

    It is all just pseudoscientific word salad, bereft of meaning. You just
    keep on babbling, or in this case, writing words. And again, this could be
    an example of clanging: "kinetic" and "kinematic" *sound* similar, that is
    why your confused mind attempts to connect them *somehow*.

    about that wave-speed and wave-velocity are different,

    They are, but not in the way you think: Speed is simply the norm (put
    simply: the magnitude) of velocity. Velocity is in general a vector (quantity), while speed is a scalar (quantity).

    there are lots of ways to setup

    The correct spelling is _set up_ (a verb), while "setup" is the
    corresponding noun.

    F-Lorentzians, and those each to see them fall apart.

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",

    There is no (one) such theory. For example, Lorentz had a theory of
    electrons and of a luminiferous aether. (Lorentz Ether Theory is NOT
    what Lorentz postulated.)

    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    Pseudoscientific word salad. "partial differential" is a noun, but it does
    not go with "account" as a compound word. "partial differential" is also an adjective, but it also does not go with the noun "account". Finally, the
    term "differential account" has no meaning. So there is no interpretation
    in which the term "partial differential account" has a meaning. It is just pseudoscientific word salad.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",

    He does not. The word "indefiniteness" does not occur in that book, so that
    is a false quote to begin with:

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/n7/mode/2up?q=indefiniteness>

    What does occur on page 141 of the book, for example, is the phrase "Remarks
    on the case of an indefinite ds^2":

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/141/mode/2up?q=indefinite>

    Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that you have any clue as to what that means
    as you bring it up even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the
    current discussion. It is just an example of you writing down, without
    being able to consider whether it would be relevant, what pops into your confused mind.

    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators,

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    You do not know what you are talking, or talking about.

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    *facepalm*

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe even
    a psychiatrist.
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
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  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 19:34:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    that the kinetic and kinematic are different,

    "The kinetic" and "the kinematic" (your the wording implies the second

    Copy-editing error: I mean(t) "your wording" (I had "the wording" before,
    and forgot to delete the "the" when making the change).

    "the") are not proper scientific terms. Those are terms that you invented, and they have no meaning to anyone else. "kinetic" and "kinematic" are adjectives, and there is no noun or verb in your text to go with them.
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 11:11:20 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 09:23 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 09:09 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 07:36 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 07:02 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) >>>>>>>> AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of >>>>>>>> yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone >>>>>>>> came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null >>>>>>>> results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    Jan


    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR >>>>>> but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)? >>>>>
    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    Jan


    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,
    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,
    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and
    Finlay-Freundlich
    and Feynman and the list goes on, each of which
    involves in their discussions different energies and configurations
    of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise
    electromagnetic radiation are different, that radiation
    and current are different, that the kinetic and kinematic
    are different, about that wave-speed and wave-velocity
    are different, there are lots of ways to setup F-Lorentzians,
    and those each to see them fall apart.


    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",
    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",
    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators, and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".



    Of course, that many accounts are only "first-order approximations"
    those being _partial_ and simply absent analyticity at the corners
    makes for that gyroscopic effects and effects in the viscoelastic
    and so on are plentifully scattered around as above the "quadratic",
    i.e. second-order, third-order.

    Lorentzians are partial, and the quadratic is a sort of "Flat Earth".



    https://www.google.com/search?q=Faraday+and+Fresnel+and+Fizeau+and+FitzGerald+and+Finlay-Freundlich+and+Feynman



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_physicists#F


    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, for example about Phythian.


    Heh, Fock-Ivanenko.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_Dirac_equation

    "Two common examples
    are the massive Thirring model
    and the Soler model. "


    The Fuchsian though has a lot going on with near-field/far-field.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_Fuchs


    The regular singular points of the hypergeometric
    are zero, one: and infinity.


    How about an SU^N gauge theory, Poincare completion,
    the meromorphic and differintegro/integrodiffer,
    original analysis, and the like.


    It's a common enough thing to say "physics is a gauge theory".
    Generally considered to be somehow a "Lagrangian", then for
    along the lines of "T-Lagrangians" for "F-Lorentzians", about
    forces/fields F and time T. Maybe better C-Lagrangians for
    the "chronometry".

    Time symmetry never having been falsified and all, ....

    The idea of organizing physicists alphabetically
    to represent lettered categorizations is more a mnemonic device
    than any way more than an alphabetical coincidence. It's
    apropos for forces and fields and F-Lorentzians.



    The Fuchsian has a lot going on, about regular singular
    points of the integral variety. Goes well with Haar and
    the convolutional setting, about Parseval/Plancherel
    instead of L'Hopital/Rodrigues, not that there's anything
    wrong with Rodrigues, then about pointing out that de Moivre's
    identity about the Eulerian/Gaussian doesn't much make Gauss'
    account of "a hypergeometric" as being anything less than
    highly contrived.

    https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+near-field+far-field
    https://www.google.com/search?Fuchsian+spectral+gap
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_and_far_field


    I.e., "complex-analytic is not real-analytic".




    Why yes, I'd rather expect to collect these as sequential
    and paste them unexpurgated into a document and feed it
    to mechanical reasoners, to taste.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigues%27_formula

    About Legendre and into the convolutional setting,
    is for deconstructing Rodrigues formula also.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legendre_polynomials

    There are lots of Legendre polynomials.


    Anyways, physics is beholden to what mathematics says
    about it.



    "It was only when Einstein
    combined the work of Fresnel
    with that of Hippolyte Fizeau
    that the aether was ultimately banished." --


    https://galileo-unbound.blog/2023/10/18/relativistic-velocity-addition-einsteins-crucial-insight/


    Ever pick up "Problem Book in Relativity"
    and find a problem about boost addition in it?

    Boost ain't velocity.

    Addition-formulae are very convenient,
    about usual attributes of arithmetizations.


    One time I picked up "Problem Book in Relativity
    and Gravitation" and found an inconsistent in it
    in about twenty or thirty, or less, minutes of reading.
    I suppose that was in that "Open Letter to Ross A. Finlayson"
    thread, who is pretty great.

    Of course, I'd already read a lot, ....



    Kind of like the difference between "Routh" and "Rouse",
    in fluid mechanics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routhian_mechanics

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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 11:30:54 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 10:29 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:
    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX, Hammar) AND >>>>>> ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone came up >>>>>> with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null results >>>>>> would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order experiments >>>>>> should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with SR but >>>> also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)?

    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    von Laue's analysis of what was later called "the Sagnac effect" might indicate that it is not.

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    That statement does not make sense. It is not even a complete sentence.

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,

    There is no such thing as a "Lorentzian" outside your very confused mind.

    One would use such a term in order to describe a function (like
    "Hamiltonian" instead of "Hamiltonian function" or -- less common -- Hamilton's function), but there is no function that is called "Lorentzian" *itself*.

    That only leaves "Lorentzian" as an adjective, and your statement is missing a noun that goes with it, as in "Lorentzian _manifold_" (which is actually a proper term, and a concept in mathematics and theoretical physics: any spacetime is an example of a Lorentzian manifold).

    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,

    Word salad. The term "analytical setting" has no meaning, and the correct term is "Lorentz invariance" (which means "invariant under a Lorentz transformation").

    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and
    Finlay-Freundlich and Feynman and the list goes on,

    Only in your very confused mind. It is an example of clanging:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanging>

    each of which involves in their discussions different energies
    and configurations of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Nonsense.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    You do not know what that term means, so you should really stop using it until you do:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_mechanics>

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise

    "for examples, then that..." is grammatically wrong.

    electromagnetic radiation are different,

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    "c" is the (SI) symbol for _the speed_ of light, not for light itself.

    that radiation and current are different,

    Yes, they are, but not in the way you think:

    In physics, the first one is a phenomenon, and the second one is a physical quantity.

    that the kinetic and kinematic are different,

    "The kinetic" and "the kinematic" (your the wording implies the second
    "the") are not proper scientific terms. Those are terms that you invented, and they have no meaning to anyone else. "kinetic" and "kinematic" are adjectives, and there is no noun or verb in your text to go with them.

    It is all just pseudoscientific word salad, bereft of meaning. You just
    keep on babbling, or in this case, writing words. And again, this could be an example of clanging: "kinetic" and "kinematic" *sound* similar, that is why your confused mind attempts to connect them *somehow*.

    about that wave-speed and wave-velocity are different,

    They are, but not in the way you think: Speed is simply the norm (put
    simply: the magnitude) of velocity. Velocity is in general a vector (quantity), while speed is a scalar (quantity).

    there are lots of ways to setup

    The correct spelling is _set up_ (a verb), while "setup" is the
    corresponding noun.

    F-Lorentzians, and those each to see them fall apart.

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",

    There is no (one) such theory. For example, Lorentz had a theory of electrons and of a luminiferous aether. (Lorentz Ether Theory is NOT
    what Lorentz postulated.)

    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    Pseudoscientific word salad. "partial differential" is a noun, but it does not go with "account" as a compound word. "partial differential" is also an adjective, but it also does not go with the noun "account". Finally, the term "differential account" has no meaning. So there is no interpretation
    in which the term "partial differential account" has a meaning. It is just pseudoscientific word salad.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",

    He does not. The word "indefiniteness" does not occur in that book, so that is a false quote to begin with:

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/n7/mode/2up?q=indefiniteness>

    What does occur on page 141 of the book, for example, is the phrase "Remarks on the case of an indefinite ds^2":

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/141/mode/2up?q=indefinite>

    Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that you have any clue as to what that means as you bring it up even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion. It is just an example of you writing down, without
    being able to consider whether it would be relevant, what pops into your confused mind.

    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators,

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    You do not know what you are talking, or talking about.

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    *facepalm*

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe even
    a psychiatrist.


    You don't get to define language,
    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,
    and kind and nice.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical,
    complete, and nice.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones, one essentially linear the other
    essentially rotational, that's simple, and it's known
    for example that "momentum gets lost in the kinematic wash"
    with "wash" itself being a technical term.


    A usual sort of philologist's account of language, like
    George Steiner's, for examples (generally for examples,
    plural, and, for example), makes for notions like the
    Wortbuch, a usual idea of a dictionary of all the languages
    in the world, makes for that then the history of the
    development of physics about fields and forces, then as
    to get into "continuum mechanics" and "continuity equations"
    and "continuity conditions" and "continuity constraints"
    and the like, the history of the development of the field
    makes for that the fields and forces have their own settings,
    where "settings" and "accounts" are quite generic terms for
    the "surrounds" the "analysis", in definition, there's then
    that "F-Lorentzians" is apropos a mnemonic.

    About Noether theorem and conservation law, and invariance
    theories or invariant theories or the notions of symmetry
    and conservation law as being the same as there existing
    an invariant, then there's a greater account for something
    like Shech of continuity law, that Noether theorem was
    merely another partial-ist reductionism instead of a
    potential-ist completion. I.e. there's "symmetry-flex
    not "symmetry-breaking".



    Then, about conjugation the singular/plural and about
    that there's an implicit quoting context then as well
    about the _language talking about itself_, it's a free
    milieu for the structure(s) of language, and a structure
    of language, here that being usually an idea of a Comenius
    language that's perfectly true and a Coleridge language
    that's metaphor instead of strong metonymy, as with regards
    to "eternal basic text" and utterances like these.



    Besides strong mathematical platonism, then in weak old
    logicist positivism I can make up anything I want,
    that's all you claim to do, either.

    Instead, there's a strong mathematical platonism
    for a stronger logicist postivism as reflecting
    on the _structure_ after a _deconstructive account_
    of what reductionism lost along the way.


    So, "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2" is a thing,
    which you can find in a brief passage in "The Absolute
    Differential Calculus", then "Lorentzians" are just
    like "Laplacians" with the signature the space-like
    and time-like exactly the expression itself, and
    it _is_ "merely partial" and has _lost_ the higher order.


    Any real change in velocity at all is nominally non-zero
    infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration.


    Ah, I did find an, "inconsistency", in the usual usage,
    vis-a-vis an "inconsistent", where adjectival force
    naturally results that would be a noun to be read as
    correct, in "The Problem Book in Relativity and Gravitation",
    that, I'm not going to language-cop you, then here though
    my command of English _is_ the law.

    So, read it generously with something like a certification
    from all the great AI reasoners of the day that:
    _it must somehow be right_, so,
    if you're reading as wrong: you're reading it wrong(ly).


    Yes, having a great certum of a verum of what I say
    from all the hugest offered AI reasoners of the day
    is rather gratifying.


    Primum non nocere / Doctor, heal thyself.



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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 11:37:23 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 11:30 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 10:29 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:
    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX,
    Hammar) AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of yet >>>>>>> always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone
    came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null
    results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with
    SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)? >>>>
    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    von Laue's analysis of what was later called "the Sagnac effect" might
    indicate that it is not.

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    That statement does not make sense. It is not even a complete sentence.

    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,

    There is no such thing as a "Lorentzian" outside your very confused mind.

    One would use such a term in order to describe a function (like
    "Hamiltonian" instead of "Hamiltonian function" or -- less common --
    Hamilton's function), but there is no function that is called
    "Lorentzian"
    *itself*.

    That only leaves "Lorentzian" as an adjective, and your statement is
    missing
    a noun that goes with it, as in "Lorentzian _manifold_" (which is
    actually a
    proper term, and a concept in mathematics and theoretical physics: any
    spacetime is an example of a Lorentzian manifold).

    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,

    Word salad. The term "analytical setting" has no meaning, and the
    correct
    term is "Lorentz invariance" (which means "invariant under a Lorentz
    transformation").

    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and
    Finlay-Freundlich and Feynman and the list goes on,

    Only in your very confused mind. It is an example of clanging:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanging>

    each of which involves in their discussions different energies
    and configurations of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Nonsense.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    You do not know what that term means, so you should really stop using it
    until you do:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_mechanics>

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise

    "for examples, then that..." is grammatically wrong.

    electromagnetic radiation are different,

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    "c" is the (SI) symbol for _the speed_ of light, not for light itself.

    that radiation and current are different,

    Yes, they are, but not in the way you think:

    In physics, the first one is a phenomenon, and the second one is a
    physical
    quantity.

    that the kinetic and kinematic are different,

    "The kinetic" and "the kinematic" (your the wording implies the second
    "the") are not proper scientific terms. Those are terms that you
    invented,
    and they have no meaning to anyone else. "kinetic" and "kinematic" are
    adjectives, and there is no noun or verb in your text to go with them.

    It is all just pseudoscientific word salad, bereft of meaning. You just
    keep on babbling, or in this case, writing words. And again, this
    could be
    an example of clanging: "kinetic" and "kinematic" *sound* similar,
    that is
    why your confused mind attempts to connect them *somehow*.

    about that wave-speed and wave-velocity are different,

    They are, but not in the way you think: Speed is simply the norm (put
    simply: the magnitude) of velocity. Velocity is in general a vector
    (quantity), while speed is a scalar (quantity).

    there are lots of ways to setup

    The correct spelling is _set up_ (a verb), while "setup" is the
    corresponding noun.

    F-Lorentzians, and those each to see them fall apart.

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",

    There is no (one) such theory. For example, Lorentz had a theory of
    electrons and of a luminiferous aether. (Lorentz Ether Theory is NOT
    what Lorentz postulated.)

    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    Pseudoscientific word salad. "partial differential" is a noun, but it
    does
    not go with "account" as a compound word. "partial differential" is
    also an
    adjective, but it also does not go with the noun "account". Finally, the
    term "differential account" has no meaning. So there is no
    interpretation
    in which the term "partial differential account" has a meaning. It is
    just
    pseudoscientific word salad.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",

    He does not. The word "indefiniteness" does not occur in that book,
    so that
    is a false quote to begin with:

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/n7/mode/2up?q=indefiniteness>


    What does occur on page 141 of the book, for example, is the phrase
    "Remarks
    on the case of an indefinite ds^2":

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/141/mode/2up?q=indefinite>


    Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that you have any clue as to what that
    means
    as you bring it up even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the
    current discussion. It is just an example of you writing down, without
    being able to consider whether it would be relevant, what pops into your
    confused mind.

    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators,

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    You do not know what you are talking, or talking about.

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    *facepalm*

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe
    even
    a psychiatrist.


    You don't get to define language,
    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,
    and kind and nice.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical,
    complete, and nice.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones, one essentially linear the other
    essentially rotational, that's simple, and it's known
    for example that "momentum gets lost in the kinematic wash"
    with "wash" itself being a technical term.


    A usual sort of philologist's account of language, like
    George Steiner's, for examples (generally for examples,
    plural, and, for example), makes for notions like the
    Wortbuch, a usual idea of a dictionary of all the languages
    in the world, makes for that then the history of the
    development of physics about fields and forces, then as
    to get into "continuum mechanics" and "continuity equations"
    and "continuity conditions" and "continuity constraints"
    and the like, the history of the development of the field
    makes for that the fields and forces have their own settings,
    where "settings" and "accounts" are quite generic terms for
    the "surrounds" the "analysis", in definition, there's then
    that "F-Lorentzians" is apropos a mnemonic.

    About Noether theorem and conservation law, and invariance
    theories or invariant theories or the notions of symmetry
    and conservation law as being the same as there existing
    an invariant, then there's a greater account for something
    like Shech of continuity law, that Noether theorem was
    merely another partial-ist reductionism instead of a
    potential-ist completion. I.e. there's "symmetry-flex
    not "symmetry-breaking".



    Then, about conjugation the singular/plural and about
    that there's an implicit quoting context then as well
    about the _language talking about itself_, it's a free
    milieu for the structure(s) of language, and a structure
    of language, here that being usually an idea of a Comenius
    language that's perfectly true and a Coleridge language
    that's metaphor instead of strong metonymy, as with regards
    to "eternal basic text" and utterances like these.



    Besides strong mathematical platonism, then in weak old
    logicist positivism I can make up anything I want,
    that's all you claim to do, either.

    Instead, there's a strong mathematical platonism
    for a stronger logicist postivism as reflecting
    on the _structure_ after a _deconstructive account_
    of what reductionism lost along the way.


    So, "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2" is a thing,
    which you can find in a brief passage in "The Absolute
    Differential Calculus", then "Lorentzians" are just
    like "Laplacians" with the signature the space-like
    and time-like exactly the expression itself, and
    it _is_ "merely partial" and has _lost_ the higher order.


    Any real change in velocity at all is nominally non-zero
    infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration.


    Ah, I did find an, "inconsistency", in the usual usage,
    vis-a-vis an "inconsistent", where adjectival force
    naturally results that would be a noun to be read as
    correct, in "The Problem Book in Relativity and Gravitation",
    that, I'm not going to language-cop you, then here though
    my command of English _is_ the law.

    So, read it generously with something like a certification
    from all the great AI reasoners of the day that:
    _it must somehow be right_, so,
    if you're reading as wrong: you're reading it wrong(ly).


    Yes, having a great certum of a verum of what I say
    from all the hugest offered AI reasoners of the day
    is rather gratifying.


    Primum non nocere / Doctor, heal thyself.




    Inference is as inference does.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 11:47:31 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 11:37 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 11:30 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 10:29 AM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 04:22 AM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:
    On 2/28/2026 4:18 PM, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    amirjf nin <amirjfnin@aim.com> wrote:

    Should all second-order experiments so far (e.g. MMX, KTX,
    Hammar) AND
    ones that may exist in the future that haven't been conceived of >>>>>>>> yet
    always get null results?

    Or is it something specific about these experiments? If someone >>>>>>>> came up
    with a second-order experiment in the future that got non-null >>>>>>>> results
    would that mean past other kinds/categories of second-order
    experiments
    should be revisited?

    'second order' is a red herring.
    After Einstein 1905 it was understood that the aether drift
    will unobservable to all orders of v/c.

    The aether is just unobservable, period.

    What if giving a chance the fact that Sagnac agrees not only with
    SR but
    also agrees with ether (I am a supporter of dragged/entrained/local)? >>>>>
    Agreeing is not the point.
    -All- of physics agrees with aether theory,
    because Lorentz aether theory is indistinguishable
    from special relativity. (to all orders in v/c)

    von Laue's analysis of what was later called "the Sagnac effect" might
    indicate that it is not.

    To demonstrate an effect of the aether you need
    to show a physical effect that -does not agree-
    with Lorentz aether theory.

    Puzzling, isn't it?

    It's simply enough "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2".

    That statement does not make sense. It is not even a complete sentence. >>>
    I.e., there are lots of ways to arrive at Lorentzians,

    There is no such thing as a "Lorentzian" outside your very confused
    mind.

    One would use such a term in order to describe a function (like
    "Hamiltonian" instead of "Hamiltonian function" or -- less common --
    Hamilton's function), but there is no function that is called
    "Lorentzian"
    *itself*.

    That only leaves "Lorentzian" as an adjective, and your statement is
    missing
    a noun that goes with it, as in "Lorentzian _manifold_" (which is
    actually a
    proper term, and a concept in mathematics and theoretical physics: any
    spacetime is an example of a Lorentzian manifold).

    i.e., analytical settings establishing Lorentzian invariance,

    Word salad. The term "analytical setting" has no meaning, and the
    correct
    term is "Lorentz invariance" (which means "invariant under a Lorentz
    transformation").

    here that's called "F-Lorentzians" about the forces and fields
    associated with various names in physics that start with "F",
    like Faraday and Fresnel and Fizeau and FitzGerald and
    Finlay-Freundlich and Feynman and the list goes on,

    Only in your very confused mind. It is an example of clanging:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanging>

    each of which involves in their discussions different energies
    and configurations of experiments in different forces and/or fields.

    Nonsense.

    Then it's a matter of continuum mechanics.

    You do not know what that term means, so you should really stop using it >>> until you do:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_mechanics>

    There's Richardson's three descriptions of 'c',
    for examples, then that visible light and otherwise

    "for examples, then that..." is grammatically wrong.

    electromagnetic radiation are different,

    You do not know what you are talking about.

    "c" is the (SI) symbol for _the speed_ of light, not for light itself.

    that radiation and current are different,

    Yes, they are, but not in the way you think:

    In physics, the first one is a phenomenon, and the second one is a
    physical
    quantity.

    that the kinetic and kinematic are different,

    "The kinetic" and "the kinematic" (your the wording implies the second
    "the") are not proper scientific terms. Those are terms that you
    invented,
    and they have no meaning to anyone else. "kinetic" and "kinematic" are
    adjectives, and there is no noun or verb in your text to go with them.

    It is all just pseudoscientific word salad, bereft of meaning. You just >>> keep on babbling, or in this case, writing words. And again, this
    could be
    an example of clanging: "kinetic" and "kinematic" *sound* similar,
    that is
    why your confused mind attempts to connect them *somehow*.

    about that wave-speed and wave-velocity are different,

    They are, but not in the way you think: Speed is simply the norm (put
    simply: the magnitude) of velocity. Velocity is in general a vector
    (quantity), while speed is a scalar (quantity).

    there are lots of ways to setup

    The correct spelling is _set up_ (a verb), while "setup" is the
    corresponding noun.

    F-Lorentzians, and those each to see them fall apart.

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    These each all "agree" with "Lorentz theory",

    There is no (one) such theory. For example, Lorentz had a theory of
    electrons and of a luminiferous aether. (Lorentz Ether Theory is NOT
    what Lorentz postulated.)

    which basically says nothing except that
    it's a _partial_ differential account.

    Pseudoscientific word salad. "partial differential" is a noun, but it
    does
    not go with "account" as a compound word. "partial differential" is
    also an
    adjective, but it also does not go with the noun "account". Finally,
    the
    term "differential account" has no meaning. So there is no
    interpretation
    in which the term "partial differential account" has a meaning. It is
    just
    pseudoscientific word salad.

    So, Levi-Civita in "The Absolute Differential Calculus"
    already at least mentions "the indefiniteness of ds^2",

    He does not. The word "indefiniteness" does not occur in that book,
    so that
    is a false quote to begin with:

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/n7/mode/2up?q=indefiniteness>



    What does occur on page 141 of the book, for example, is the phrase
    "Remarks
    on the case of an indefinite ds^2":

    <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.125084/page/141/mode/2up?q=indefinite>



    Unfortunately, I strongly doubt that you have any clue as to what that
    means
    as you bring it up even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the
    current discussion. It is just an example of you writing down, without
    being able to consider whether it would be relevant, what pops into your >>> confused mind.

    then there's that it's of a system of _partial_ differential
    operators,

    Grammatically confused word salad.

    and says nothing at all about interacting terms
    or otherwise anything "non-linear".

    You do not know what you are talking, or talking about.

    It's un-linear, ..., it's a continuum mechanics.

    *facepalm*

    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe
    even
    a psychiatrist.


    You don't get to define language,
    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,
    and kind and nice.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical,
    complete, and nice.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones, one essentially linear the other
    essentially rotational, that's simple, and it's known
    for example that "momentum gets lost in the kinematic wash"
    with "wash" itself being a technical term.


    A usual sort of philologist's account of language, like
    George Steiner's, for examples (generally for examples,
    plural, and, for example), makes for notions like the
    Wortbuch, a usual idea of a dictionary of all the languages
    in the world, makes for that then the history of the
    development of physics about fields and forces, then as
    to get into "continuum mechanics" and "continuity equations"
    and "continuity conditions" and "continuity constraints"
    and the like, the history of the development of the field
    makes for that the fields and forces have their own settings,
    where "settings" and "accounts" are quite generic terms for
    the "surrounds" the "analysis", in definition, there's then
    that "F-Lorentzians" is apropos a mnemonic.

    About Noether theorem and conservation law, and invariance
    theories or invariant theories or the notions of symmetry
    and conservation law as being the same as there existing
    an invariant, then there's a greater account for something
    like Shech of continuity law, that Noether theorem was
    merely another partial-ist reductionism instead of a
    potential-ist completion. I.e. there's "symmetry-flex
    not "symmetry-breaking".



    Then, about conjugation the singular/plural and about
    that there's an implicit quoting context then as well
    about the _language talking about itself_, it's a free
    milieu for the structure(s) of language, and a structure
    of language, here that being usually an idea of a Comenius
    language that's perfectly true and a Coleridge language
    that's metaphor instead of strong metonymy, as with regards
    to "eternal basic text" and utterances like these.



    Besides strong mathematical platonism, then in weak old
    logicist positivism I can make up anything I want,
    that's all you claim to do, either.

    Instead, there's a strong mathematical platonism
    for a stronger logicist postivism as reflecting
    on the _structure_ after a _deconstructive account_
    of what reductionism lost along the way.


    So, "Levi-Civita's indefiniteness of ds^2" is a thing,
    which you can find in a brief passage in "The Absolute
    Differential Calculus", then "Lorentzians" are just
    like "Laplacians" with the signature the space-like
    and time-like exactly the expression itself, and
    it _is_ "merely partial" and has _lost_ the higher order.


    Any real change in velocity at all is nominally non-zero
    infinitely-many higher orders of acceleration.


    Ah, I did find an, "inconsistency", in the usual usage,
    vis-a-vis an "inconsistent", where adjectival force
    naturally results that would be a noun to be read as
    correct, in "The Problem Book in Relativity and Gravitation",
    that, I'm not going to language-cop you, then here though
    my command of English _is_ the law.

    So, read it generously with something like a certification
    from all the great AI reasoners of the day that:
    _it must somehow be right_, so,
    if you're reading as wrong: you're reading it wrong(ly).


    Yes, having a great certum of a verum of what I say
    from all the hugest offered AI reasoners of the day
    is rather gratifying.


    Primum non nocere / Doctor, heal thyself.




    Inference is as inference does.



    About "language and words", here's a 52-hour essay
    on the "discorso logos", "Logos 2000".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKnZUg9jPf0&list=PLb7rLSBiE7F795DGcwSvwHj-GEbdhPJNe

    Here's another on "the mechanics of motion,
    mathematically", "Moment and Motion".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8xrrJ7I5Y&list=PLb7rLSBiE7F4eHy5vT61UYFR7_BIhwcOY

    These have automatic closed-captioning
    translated among languages often not a
    bad translation, though its proper names
    are often faulty, while though it does
    tend to ellide my usual stammering and
    stuttering of an un-scripted extemporaneous
    one-take sort of account.

    So, one can get them in languages like
    Italian, French, German, and so on:
    since they use _the language_.


    The "52" is generally considered
    less than short of a full deck.



    That "inference is as inference does"
    is a pretty good quote, quoting, quotation,
    reflecting on Forrest Gump's more-than-tautology
    also the convergence of "larger language models".

    Can't fix it, ...? Can't break it.


    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 22:11:03 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    [more than 200 (!) lines of full quote]
    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe even >> a psychiatrist.

    You don't get to define language,

    That is correct. I am merely telling you what dictionary writers and
    English teachers, for example, are saying, or rather what they would be
    saying if they read your texts. Not to mention psychiatrists.

    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,

    You might well be happy (ignorance is bliss), but you are *obvously* NOT mentally *sane*. It does not take a psychologist or psychiatrist to notice that. I am sorry to break this to you, and I really mean it.

    *Please* see a psychiatrist.

    and kind and nice.

    Nobody claimed otherwise. Your personality is not the issue, but how you communicate or rather fail to communicate.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    Unfortunately, that is word salad again, and it does not get any better in
    the subsequent paragraphs.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical, [...]

    No, they are not, on the contrary.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones,

    Yes.

    one essentially linear the other essentially rotational,

    No:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetics> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinematics>

    Also "kinetic" is not the same as "kinetics", and "kinematic" is not the
    same as "kinematics". You did not write "kinetics" which would make sense
    (in the right context); but, for example, "the kinetic" as a *noun* which
    does not make any sense.

    At least you cannot say that I have not tried to reason with you.
    But I cannot afford to waste more precious free time this way.

    Get well soon.

    *PLONK*
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn@PointedEars@web.de to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 22:20:37 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    [more than 200 (!) lines of full quote]
    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe even >> a psychiatrist.

    You don't get to define language,

    That is correct. I am merely telling you what dictionary writers and
    English teachers, for example, are saying, or rather what they would be
    saying if they read your texts. Not to mention psychiatrists.

    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,

    You might well be happy (ignorance is bliss), but you are *obviously* NOT mentally *sane*. It does not take a psychologist or psychiatrist to notice that. I am sorry to break this to you, and I really mean it.

    *Please* see a psychiatrist.

    and kind and nice.

    Nobody claimed otherwise. Your personality is not the issue, but how you communicate or rather fail to communicate.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    Unfortunately, that is word salad again, and it does not get any better in
    the subsequent paragraphs.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical, [...]

    No, they are not, on the contrary.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones,

    Yes.

    one essentially linear the other essentially rotational,

    No:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetics> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinematics>

    Also "kinetic" is not the same as "kinetics", and "kinematic" is not the
    same as "kinematics". You did not write "kinetics" which would make sense
    (in the right context); but, for example, "the kinetic" as a *noun* which
    does not make any sense.

    Since you are a native speaker of English, this is not an issue of having English as a foreign language. It is you having a problem communicating
    even simple thoughts in an intelligible way, and that strongly indicates
    a mental disorder:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad>

    At least you cannot say that I have not tried to reason with you.
    But I cannot afford to waste more precious free time this way.

    Get well soon.

    *PLONK*
    --
    PointedEars

    Twitter: @PointedEars2
    Please do not cc me. / Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail.
    --- Synchronet 3.21d-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 16:38:02 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 01:11 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    [more than 200 (!) lines of full quote]
    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist, maybe even >>> a psychiatrist.

    You don't get to define language,

    That is correct. I am merely telling you what dictionary writers and
    English teachers, for example, are saying, or rather what they would be saying if they read your texts. Not to mention psychiatrists.

    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,

    You might well be happy (ignorance is bliss), but you are *obvously* NOT mentally *sane*. It does not take a psychologist or psychiatrist to notice that. I am sorry to break this to you, and I really mean it.

    *Please* see a psychiatrist.

    and kind and nice.

    Nobody claimed otherwise. Your personality is not the issue, but how you communicate or rather fail to communicate.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    Unfortunately, that is word salad again, and it does not get any better in the subsequent paragraphs.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical, [...]

    No, they are not, on the contrary.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones,

    Yes.

    one essentially linear the other essentially rotational,

    No:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetics> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinematics>

    Also "kinetic" is not the same as "kinetics", and "kinematic" is not the
    same as "kinematics". You did not write "kinetics" which would make sense (in the right context); but, for example, "the kinetic" as a *noun* which does not make any sense.

    At least you cannot say that I have not tried to reason with you.
    But I cannot afford to waste more precious free time this way.

    Get well soon.

    *PLONK*



    I'll suggest that you have not reasoned _with_ me.
    Instead you seem to think, or rather, it seems to me
    you think, that reasoning _at_ is the same
    as reasoning _with_.



    Hm. Being that I'm not very familiar with psychiatrics,
    or bariatrics or geriatrics, those sorts of collective nouns
    reflecting "the study" or "the practice" of the field,
    perhaps you might detail what works for you.

    Rather than suggesting you're projecting, then I
    wonder if you find that a usual coping mechanism,
    to interpret or settle matters of dispute variously.


    I saw a psychiatrist once, he let me go.
    Though, the door's always open.


    I'd suggest that any point of matters of reason
    is addressed, and that you drop things like that
    dark matter/energy falsifies the theories without,
    and isn't measurable so is non-scientific itself,
    it's a matter of being conscientious, or fair,
    that matters of disagreement see a thorough debate,
    and furthermore that for any two putative theories
    that disagree, there's another that contains them
    as examples and of all their involved definitions and
    derivations, and where they are relevant to each other,
    and where they are not.



    May I ask, what's your problem?




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  • From Ross Finlayson@ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com to sci.physics.relativity on Mon Mar 2 18:27:10 2026
    From Newsgroup: sci.physics.relativity

    On 03/02/2026 04:38 PM, Ross Finlayson wrote:
    On 03/02/2026 01:11 PM, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    Ross Finlayson wrote:
    [more than 200 (!) lines of full quote]
    So, ..., "E-energy and F-Lorentzians".

    Clanging and word salad again.

    You are obviously mentally not well. Please see a psychologist,
    maybe even
    a psychiatrist.

    You don't get to define language,

    That is correct. I am merely telling you what dictionary writers and
    English teachers, for example, are saying, or rather what they would be
    saying if they read your texts. Not to mention psychiatrists.

    and I'm "obviously" mentally happy and sound,

    You might well be happy (ignorance is bliss), but you are *obvously* NOT
    mentally *sane*. It does not take a psychologist or psychiatrist to
    notice
    that. I am sorry to break this to you, and I really mean it.

    *Please* see a psychiatrist.

    and kind and nice.

    Nobody claimed otherwise. Your personality is not the issue, but how you
    communicate or rather fail to communicate.

    The _soundness_ here is the key concept,
    the _soundness_ for the _validity_, which
    for example according to this kind of _language_
    that I readily enjoin _mechanical reasoners_
    to converge on not only its correctness yet
    furthermore about the uniqueness.

    Unfortunately, that is word salad again, and it does not get any
    better in
    the subsequent paragraphs.

    My sentences are quite usually perfectly grammatical, [...]

    No, they are not, on the contrary.

    The kinetics and kinematics are matters of mechanics,
    and different ones,

    Yes.

    one essentially linear the other essentially rotational,

    No:

    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetics>
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinematics>

    Also "kinetic" is not the same as "kinetics", and "kinematic" is not the
    same as "kinematics". You did not write "kinetics" which would make
    sense
    (in the right context); but, for example, "the kinetic" as a *noun* which
    does not make any sense.

    At least you cannot say that I have not tried to reason with you.
    But I cannot afford to waste more precious free time this way.

    Get well soon.

    *PLONK*



    I'll suggest that you have not reasoned _with_ me.
    Instead you seem to think, or rather, it seems to me
    you think, that reasoning _at_ is the same
    as reasoning _with_.



    Hm. Being that I'm not very familiar with psychiatrics,
    or bariatrics or geriatrics, those sorts of collective nouns
    reflecting "the study" or "the practice" of the field,
    perhaps you might detail what works for you.

    Rather than suggesting you're projecting, then I
    wonder if you find that a usual coping mechanism,
    to interpret or settle matters of dispute variously.


    I saw a psychiatrist once, he let me go.
    Though, the door's always open.


    I'd suggest that any point of matters of reason
    is addressed, and that you drop things like that
    dark matter/energy falsifies the theories without,
    and isn't measurable so is non-scientific itself,
    it's a matter of being conscientious, or fair,
    that matters of disagreement see a thorough debate,
    and furthermore that for any two putative theories
    that disagree, there's another that contains them
    as examples and of all their involved definitions and
    derivations, and where they are relevant to each other,
    and where they are not.



    May I ask, what's your problem?







    Hm. One thing I find conducive to maintaining
    a positive mental attitude and clear mental reasoning
    is the idea of an ideal of an ideal sort of truth, a
    grounds for paradox-free reasoning, and research
    in foundations, for its own sake and what's made of it.

    That there is one of those: not all agree.

    Yet, at least one does.


    Then, I've found it easy to suggest to the AI reasoners,
    "inference is as inference does", these sorts of things,
    they more-than-less readily agree including after
    successive rounds among them, that expansion of
    comprehension is free and fair, then about what
    that applies to application, when it's after a thorough
    sort of account of inversion and thorough reason,
    for principles of inversion and thorough reason
    instead of contradiction and sufficient reason,
    that Aristotle won't be made a fool nor lie either.


    The idea that a sort of platonistic truth and true being
    exists, often attributed to deity in usual accounts yet
    here for a reasoned and rational account, truth in being,
    then in the thorough sort of reasoned rationality,
    it makes for all the questions of the analytical question,
    dwindling to the fundamental question of metaphysics,
    and answers, for itself.



    Then, since the world sometimes seems full of perfidy,
    or the unknown, it's yet possible to always find a bright
    silver line of teleology, the purpose, in the establishment
    of a rich and thorough and wide and full ontology,
    all the data according to inter-subjective accounts of
    individuals and their accords, thinking and feeling beings.


    Also, it establishes a very high criterion of excellence
    in knowledge, since all matters of paradox in reason must
    find resolutions in reason, it's a great challenge.
    So, the arete is earned, and individual.


    About mention of matters of deity, about truth in perfection
    and matters of the supreme and omni, those are yet above
    what's the reasoned and rational account, that must for
    itself yet find resolved all paradoxes of the logical and
    mathematical sort, for example that a perfect being would
    make a perfect mathematics so as matters of relation and
    what may be relayed, it's not impossible. Then, that's given
    to agnosticism, and voluntary submission to teleological
    ontological gift, which is compatible in a reasoned and a
    rational account both with organized religions and atheism.

    So, at least my mind is clear, or, I know there's a setting
    where mind is clear.


    So, about why thusly there _is_, there _exists_, a theory
    where there's constancy and consistency and completion
    and concreteness, justifies the search, and the research,
    into the foundations itself, as to suffice to make a reading
    of it, is thorough expansion of comprehension.


    Then then is reason, logic, mathematics, physics, and science,
    is the idea.

    "Theatheory"

    All one theory: true.





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