From Newsgroup: sci.lang


I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming, handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech, bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift, ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive, pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim, calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?
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From Newsgroup: sci.lang


DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming, handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech, bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift, ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive, pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim, calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?

The English word tall originated in the early 16th century, but its roots go back much further. It comes from Middle English tal, talle, meaning rCLhandsome,rCY rCLbrave,rCY or rCLworthy,rCY and from Old English get|al, meaning rCLquickrCY or rCLactiverCY.rCi

From a linguistic standpoint, its evolution is striking:

Old English get|alN++ meant rCLprompt, nimble, active.rCY

Middle English talN++ described someone rCLvaliantrCY or rCLfair in appearance.rCY

By the 1520s, tall came to mean rCLhaving great stature,rCY first applied to people and later to objects.

By the 1580s, it gained the modern sense of rCLof more than average height.rCY

The figurative sense rCLexaggeratedrCY (as in rCLtall talerCY) appeared in American English by the mid-19th century.rCi

Etymologically, tall shares distant Germanic roots with Old High German gizalN++ (rCLquickrCY) and Gothic untalsN++ (rCLindocilerCY).rCi
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From Newsgroup: sci.lang


HenHanna@NewsGrouper <user4055@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

DDeden <user5108@newsgrouper.org.invalid> posted:

I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming, handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech, bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift, ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive, pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim, calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?

The English word tall originated in the early 16th century, but its roots go back much further. It comes from Middle English tal, talle, meaning rCLhandsome,rCY rCLbrave,rCY or rCLworthy,rCY and from Old English get|al, meaning rCLquickrCY or rCLactiverCY.rCi

From a linguistic standpoint, its evolution is striking:

Old English get|alN++ meant rCLprompt, nimble, active.rCY

Middle English talN++ described someone rCLvaliantrCY or rCLfair in appearance.rCY

By the 1520s, tall came to mean rCLhaving great stature,rCY first applied to people and later to objects.

By the 1580s, it gained the modern sense of rCLof more than average height.rCY

The figurative sense rCLexaggeratedrCY (as in rCLtall talerCY) appeared in American English by the mid-19th century.rCi

Etymologically, tall shares distant Germanic roots with Old High German gizalN++ (rCLquickrCY) and Gothic untalsN++ (rCLindocilerCY).rCi

Thanks Hen. I have doubts that tall came by that unusual route.
I think it was always related to tower, perhaps a dialect sound/spelling change but not semantic change.
A star or cloud might be high, but a tower was tall, because it was constructed of (straight) sticks.
And stick has meaning of both a pole and adhesive, because it stemmed from jabbing a stick into the ground to support a structure.
There's a bunch of words that fit the concept of stick-built structure (steeple, teepee, stable, staple, stall, stand, staff...).
Some are from PIE *steup or *steb or *stel. I think tall came from that place, and by 1500 was used in English, but wasn't rooted in tal or get|al but in twr or tur.
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From Newsgroup: sci.lang

On 23/10/2025 10:31 a.m., DDeden wrote:

I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming, handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech, bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift, ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive, pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim, calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?

I don't think I've ever even looked into this word's origins before.
It's surprising.

Watkins' version has PIE *del 'to recount, count' (also the root of
TELL, TALE, TALK). The only intermediate form he cites is OE get|al
'quick, ready' (from West Germanic *(ge-)tala. This seems essentially
like what you found, but a lot needs filling in.

So to OED: The words "uncertain" and "obscure" both appear early in
their etymological discussion.

With Old English get|al (plural ge-tale) 'swift, prompt' they compare Old
High German gizal, Middle High German gezal 'quick', and more remotely
Gothic untals 'unaccommodating, uncompliant, disobedient' and Old
Northumbrian untal 'evil, improper'. This establishes a likely Germanic origin.

I can see a "quick" ~ "obedient" connection there, but the relation to
*del is not immediately apparent. Your PIE and PGmc glosses suggest a
possible bridge, I guess.

OED's English senses in order:

I.1 Quick, prompt, ready, active (one uncertain OE use, otherwise 1374)
I.2a Meet, becoming, seemly, proper, decent (1440)
I.2b Comely, goodly, fair, handsome; elegant, fine (1450)
I.3 Good at arms, stout or strong in combat; doughty, brave, bold,
valiant (1529)

II.6.a.i High in stature, of more than average height (person or
animal) (1530)
II.7 (used of other things: ships, trees, mountains) (1548)


This looks a little easier to believe. It's a peculiarly English
situation. In my experience, looking for a word for "tall" in other
languages, it will almost always be the same as "long" or "big" or "high".

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From Newsgroup: sci.lang

Op 23/10/2025 om 1:42 schreef Ross Clark:

On 23/10/2025 10:31 a.m., DDeden wrote:

I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology
online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming,
handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech,
bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift,
ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive,
pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim,
calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?

I don't think I've ever even looked into this word's origins before.
It's surprising.

Watkins' version has PIE *del 'to recount, count' (also the root of
TELL, TALE, TALK). The only intermediate form he cites is OE get|al
'quick, ready' (from West Germanic *(ge-)tala. This seems essentially
like what you found, but a lot needs filling in.

So to OED: The words "uncertain" and "obscure" both appear early in
their etymological discussion.

With Old English get|al (plural ge-tale) 'swift, prompt' they compare Old High German gizal, Middle High German gezal 'quick', and more remotely Gothic untals 'unaccommodating, uncompliant, disobedient' and Old Northumbrian untal 'evil, improper'. This establishes a likely Germanic origin.

I can see a "quick" ~ "obedient" connection there, but the relation to
*del is not immediately apparent. Your PIE and PGmc glosses suggest a possible bridge, I guess.

OED's English senses in order:

I.1-a Quick, prompt, ready, active (one uncertain OE use, otherwise 1374) I.2a-a Meet, becoming, seemly, proper, decent-a (1440)
I.2b-a Comely, goodly, fair, handsome; elegant, fine (1450)
I.3-a-a Good at arms, stout or strong in combat; doughty, brave, bold, valiant (1529)

II.6.a.i-a High in stature, of more than average height (person or
animal)-a (1530)
II.7-a-a-a-a-a (used of other things: ships, trees, mountains)-a (1548)

This looks a little easier to believe. It's a peculiarly English
situation. In my experience, looking for a word for "tall" in other languages, it will almost always be the same as "long" or "big" or "high".

In "my" other language, Dutch, it would be "groot", big, vs. "klein",
small. (Mockingly it might be "lang" vs. "kort".)

E. "tall" < "ge-t~al" just looks like our "getal", number, from
"tellen", to count, which doesn't make much sense, though mentioned in
the above uncertain etymologies...
--
guido wugi
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From Newsgroup: sci.lang


Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> posted:

On 23/10/2025 10:31 a.m., DDeden wrote:

I can make no sense of the claimed etymology of 'tall' at etymology online nor at Wiktionary.

Wik: From Middle English tall, talle, tal (rCLseemly, becoming, handsome, good-looking, excellent, good, valiant, lively in speech, bold, great, large, bigrCY), from Old English *t|al, -iet|al (rCLswift, ready, having mastery ofrCY), from Proto-Germanic *talaz (rCLsubmissive, pliable, obedientrCY), from Proto-Indo-European *dol-, *del- (rCLto aim, calculate, adjust, reckonrCY).

Does anyone agree with that?

I don't think I've ever even looked into this word's origins before.
It's surprising.

Watkins' version has PIE *del 'to recount, count' (also the root of
TELL, TALE, TALK). The only intermediate form he cites is OE get|al
'quick, ready' (from West Germanic *(ge-)tala. This seems essentially
like what you found, but a lot needs filling in.

So to OED: The words "uncertain" and "obscure" both appear early in
their etymological discussion.

With Old English get|al (plural ge-tale) 'swift, prompt' they compare Old High German gizal, Middle High German gezal 'quick', and more remotely Gothic untals 'unaccommodating, uncompliant, disobedient' and Old Northumbrian untal 'evil, improper'. This establishes a likely Germanic origin.

I can see a "quick" ~ "obedient" connection there, but the relation to
*del is not immediately apparent. Your PIE and PGmc glosses suggest a possible bridge, I guess.

OED's English senses in order:

I.1 Quick, prompt, ready, active (one uncertain OE use, otherwise 1374)
I.2a Meet, becoming, seemly, proper, decent (1440)
I.2b Comely, goodly, fair, handsome; elegant, fine (1450)
I.3 Good at arms, stout or strong in combat; doughty, brave, bold,
valiant (1529)

II.6.a.i High in stature, of more than average height (person or
animal) (1530)
II.7 (used of other things: ships, trees, mountains) (1548)

This looks a little easier to believe. It's a peculiarly English
situation. In my experience, looking for a word for "tall" in other languages, it will almost always be the same as "long" or "big" or "high".

Thanks Ross and Wugi.

I may have found a reveal, linking stick and number to tall via tally.

Etymology Online: tally
mid-15c., talie, "scored stick used in record-keeping, piece of wood marked with notches or scores to indicate amount owed or paid," also the record kept on it, from Anglo-French tallie (early 14c., Old French taille "notch in a piece of wood signifying a debt"), Anglo-Latin talea (late 12c.), from Medieval Latin tallia, from Latin talea "a cutting, rod, stick" (see tailor (n.), and compare the sense history of score (n.)).


Wiktionary: tally https://share.google/qBZP2RxXarHKGA9Xg
Etymology 2
From Middle English talie, from Anglo-Norman tallie and Old French taille (rCLnotch in a piece of wood signifying a debtrCY), from Medieval Latin tallia, from Latin talea (rCLa cutting, rod, stickrCY). Doublet of taille and talea.

Seems more believable to me that tall linked to a long stick that was (read) upright, like a tower is more noticeably upright than a cube, so perceived as high stature.
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