My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the software.
I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch was an "okay
compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have one five inch
screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.-a In
the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a grove on
the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height is limited
on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively machining
plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to raise the work piece a little.-a If I do have to work on somethign outside my normal
scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking down the default
setup is not a big deal.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a while,
but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and even some
bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about them
if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-vise- screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
On 1/21/2026 11:50 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises
modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have
one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other
two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.
In the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide
wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in
mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a
grove on the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height
is limited on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively
machining plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to
raise the work piece a little.-a If I do have to work on somethign
outside my normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking
down the default setup is not a big deal.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of
all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified
for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I
forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the
Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a
great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them
while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-
vise- screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
I've also been thinking about making a ground straight 1x3 or 1x4 bar
for aligning two vises together.-a Not sure exactly how to manage heat
since my grinder doesn't run coolant, but I do have a couple cheap
import mist sprayers around... somewhere.
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10kr7ut$14vjj$1@dont-email.me...
Dag-Nag-It, Jim!-a I was perfectly happy with the setups I have until you reminded me I haven't used my surface grinder in a long time.
Bob La Londe
---------------------------
I use mine all the time. The base is the backrest for the stool for
tending the wood stove and the table is a shelf for papers etc to be
sorted.
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the software.
I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch was an "okay
compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have one five inch
screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.-a In
the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a grove on
the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height is limited
on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively machining
plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to raise the work piece a little.-a If I do have to work on somethign outside my normal
scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking down the default
setup is not a big deal.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a while,
but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and even some
bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about them
if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-vise- screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
On 1/21/2026 11:50 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises
modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have
one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other
two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.
In the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide
wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in
mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a
grove on the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height
is limited on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively
machining plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to
raise the work piece a little.-a If I do have to work on somethign
outside my normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking
down the default setup is not a big deal.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of
all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified
for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I
forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the
Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a
great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them
while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-
vise- screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
*** I am letting you guys know so you have a chance to snatch one up if
it would be useful for you.-a Years ago, in the hardware business I ran across a listing for a CVA 12ga shotgun in our hardware catalog (TrueValue/CoterCo) for $25.-a The next cheapest regular 12ga at the time was costing us around 50-60 dollars and we sold them in the hardware
store for 89.95.-a 79.95 for five at a time to the farms for pet
management and depredation management.
At the time CVA was known for
their black powder gun kits.-a As far as we knew that was all they sold.
I ordered one through the hardware store for myself to check it out, and
it was decent.-a It had one very minor flaw.-a They pin that locked the forend in place just went onto a hole in the wood forend.-a I drilled
mine out, and pressed in a piece of rigid copper tube.-a Problem solved.
We decided it was good enough for the farms, and my dad decided to every
one they had in stock.-a They were all gone.
There are either of two options about a deal that seams to good to be true. 1.-a It probably is.
2.-a It will be gone before you get a second chance.
I received shipping notices on the 6 new vises this morning.-a 6 separate shipping notices.
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have
one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other
two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.-a
In the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide
wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in
mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a
grove on the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height
is limited on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively machining plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to
raise the work piece a little. If I do have to work on somethign
outside my normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking
down the default setup is not a big deal.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of
all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified
for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I
forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the
Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a
great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them
while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-vise-screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
On 21/01/2026 18:50, Bob La Londe wrote:
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises
modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have
one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other
two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening. In
the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide wide
opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in mold
plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a grove on
the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height is limited
on the smaller machines, but since I am almost exclusively machining
plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be an issue to raise the
work piece a little. If I do have to work on somethign outside my
normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway, so taking down the
default setup is not a big deal.
How are you going to machine it, the link says they're hardened steel
and HRC 58-62, while not impossible to machine it makes it interesting.
I accidentally touched the top of one of the jaws on my Gerardi vice
which is similar hardness and it just polished it slightly although IIRC that was an HSS cutter.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of
all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I qualified
for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, and I
forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else on the
Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart, still a
great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better get them
while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-
vise-screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for them
to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
On 1/22/2026 10:49 AM, David Billington wrote:
On 21/01/2026 18:50, Bob La Londe wrote:
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises
modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have
one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other
two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.
In the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide
wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in
mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a
grove on the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height
is limited on the smaller machines, but since I am almost
exclusively machining plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be
an issue to raise the work piece a little. If I do have to work on
somethign outside my normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway,
so taking down the default setup is not a big deal.
How are you going to machine it, the link says they're hardened steel
and HRC 58-62, while not impossible to machine it makes it
interesting. I accidentally touched the top of one of the jaws on my
Gerardi vice which is similar hardness and it just polished it
slightly although IIRC that was an HSS cutter.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of
all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I
qualified for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time,
and I forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else
on the Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart,
still a great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better
get them while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-
vise-screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for
them to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
I've had no insurmountable issue cutting similar vises with TiAln
coated carbide or even AlTiN coated carbide with steel cutting
geometry.-a I suppose theoretically it could be through hardened, but I think its unlikely.-a Even if it was quenched and tempered instead of
case hardened I think the hard layer will be relatively thin just due
to the mass.-a If I have to dress down a grinding wheel to break the
surface I will, but I don't thing I'll have to.
FYI:-a Two of my current vises I stepped the cut back jaws with 1/4
inch AlTiN coated cutters at crazy high RPM on my high speed spindle machines.-a Machined in place.-a I don't recall off hand, but the lowest
I typically run those spindles is 8K, and they don't start developing
real power until about 12K.-a Cutting in place turned out to be a waste
of time.-a I wound up taking them off the machine, and slitting them
for a relief cut in the step on the knee mill in the back.
Anyway, they were hardish, but it was not like hard milling, and if
theses new ones turn out to be hard milling I'll just follow some of
the recipes worked up ages ago by NYC CNC for the Tormach.-a Its not
like I have to do it everyday.-a I do it once (well maybe six times)
and never do it again... or atleast not for several years.
I've struggled more with "softer" 4140HT (28-32HRC).-a The machinists
groups on Facebook sneer at my struggles, but I've found the stuff
very tough and experienced very short tool life. I spent weeks
replacing cutters and recutting parts when I made some 4140HT
embossing and compacting press dies with the stuff for tea cakes
(cakes of tea, not cakes to be eaten with tea).
On 22/01/2026 18:32, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 1/22/2026 10:49 AM, David Billington wrote:OK, thanks for the reply, I expect you'll report back on how you get on
On 21/01/2026 18:50, Bob La Londe wrote:
My CNC machines have limited work envelopes.-a As a result I have
modified a number of screwless vises to maximize use of the work
envelope.-a 3 are 6.6 x 11.8 and only after I reconfigured the
software. I long ago figured out a modified 5 inch vise with jaws
machined back or other modifications worked best for y, and a 6 inch
was an "okay compromise for X.-a In fact a pair of 5 screwless vises
modified to match would give the most working envelope.-a I only have >>>> one five inch screwless vise.-a I've been using six inch on the other >>>> two machines.
Technically they are 4.72 (120mm) wide by 5.91 (150mm) jaw opening.
In the past I have just machined away part of the jaws, to provide
wide opening, and small step jaw, and clearance for through holes in
mold plates.-a I think this time I'll do it differently.-a Machine a
grove on the flat tops of the jaws to add a secondary jaw.-a Z height >>>> is limited on the smaller machines, but since I am almost
exclusively machining plate no thicker than an inch it shouldn't be
an issue to raise the work piece a little. If I do have to work on
somethign outside my normal scope I am charging extra for it anyway,
so taking down the default setup is not a big deal.
How are you going to machine it, the link says they're hardened steel
and HRC 58-62, while not impossible to machine it makes it
interesting. I accidentally touched the top of one of the jaws on my
Gerardi vice which is similar hardness and it just polished it
slightly although IIRC that was an HSS cutter.
I have been wanting some screwless vises in this size class for a
while, but they all seem to be over priced compared to smaller and
even some bigger options.-a A while back I found some from Tormach of >>>> all places. I put six of them in my shopping cart and saw I
qualified for free basic shipping.-a I didn't want to spend the time, >>>> and I forgot about them. Yesterday I was looking up something else
on the Tormach website and saw they were still in my shopping cart,
still a great price, and still free shipping.-a I figured I better
get them while they were still available.
Now I might have some use for that surface grinder Jim was talking
about, or maybe I'll just mill them and call it good enough.
Anyway, the main point of this post was to let you guys know about
them if any of you have a use. https://tormach.com/120mm-toolmaker-
vise-screwless-33111.html
Its a good enough price I was tempted to buy extras, and wait for
them to run out, then resell them on FleaBay.
I've had no insurmountable issue cutting similar vises with TiAln
coated carbide or even AlTiN coated carbide with steel cutting
geometry.-a I suppose theoretically it could be through hardened, but I
think its unlikely.-a Even if it was quenched and tempered instead of
case hardened I think the hard layer will be relatively thin just due
to the mass.-a If I have to dress down a grinding wheel to break the
surface I will, but I don't thing I'll have to.
FYI:-a Two of my current vises I stepped the cut back jaws with 1/4
inch AlTiN coated cutters at crazy high RPM on my high speed spindle
machines.-a Machined in place.-a I don't recall off hand, but the lowest
I typically run those spindles is 8K, and they don't start developing
real power until about 12K.-a Cutting in place turned out to be a waste
of time.-a I wound up taking them off the machine, and slitting them
for a relief cut in the step on the knee mill in the back.
Anyway, they were hardish, but it was not like hard milling, and if
theses new ones turn out to be hard milling I'll just follow some of
the recipes worked up ages ago by NYC CNC for the Tormach.-a Its not
like I have to do it everyday.-a I do it once (well maybe six times)
and never do it again... or atleast not for several years.
I've struggled more with "softer" 4140HT (28-32HRC).-a The machinists
groups on Facebook sneer at my struggles, but I've found the stuff
very tough and experienced very short tool life. I spent weeks
replacing cutters and recutting parts when I made some 4140HT
embossing and compacting press dies with the stuff for tea cakes
(cakes of tea, not cakes to be eaten with tea).
with them after they arrive, maybe even post some pics of the results.
Tea cakes like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_tea ?
Here in the UK EN24T is a common alloy steel equivalent to 4340 and
supplied hardened and tempered to T condition which seems to be the same
as the 4140HT. Never really had an issue with it but I don't machine
lots of it and certainly slow the SFM down compared to easier to machine steels.
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10kr7ut$14vjj$1@dont-email.me...
Dag-Nag-It, Jim! I was perfectly happy with the setups I have until you reminded me I haven't used my surface grinder in a long time.
Bob La Londe
---------------------------
I use mine all the time. The base is the backrest for the stool for
tending the wood stove and the table is a shelf for papers etc to be
sorted.
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10ktiqu$192bh$1@dont-email.me...
I don't run heat or AC in the main shop, ...
----------------------
The outdoor temperature here in the warmer southern edge of the state is
+2F / -16C in the 'sun'. An unheated shop would be unpleasant at the
least, as I know from car problems and Army winter field exercises.
Ungloved fingers very rapidly go numb, thin work gloves aren't much better.
Now it's +3, I'll go out and move firewood.
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10l301r$1059s$1@dont-email.me...It was -15 degF when I got up at 4:00am. Had come up to -11 by the time
I don't know the temperature outside right now, but a light jacket might
be nice if inactive, or blasting up the river in an open boat at 60+mph.
Such a light jacket would be quickly shed once activity was initiated.
Bob La Londe
-----------------------------
You're lucky. Those due east of you are getting the snow/ice storm we will >suffer tomorrow. >https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-weather-forecast-january-24
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10ktiqu$192bh$1@dont-email.me...
I don't run heat or AC in the main shop, ...
----------------------
The outdoor temperature here in the warmer southern edge of the state is
+2F / -16C in the 'sun'. An unheated shop would be unpleasant at the
least, as I know from car problems and Army winter field exercises.
Ungloved fingers very rapidly go numb, thin work gloves aren't much better.
Now it's +3, I'll go out and move firewood.
On 1/24/2026 6:06 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10ktiqu$192bh$1@dont-email.me...
I don't run heat or AC in the main shop, ...
----------------------
The outdoor temperature here in the warmer southern edge of the state
is +2F / -16C in the 'sun'. An unheated shop would be unpleasant at
the least, as I know from car problems and Army winter field
exercises. Ungloved fingers very rapidly go numb, thin work gloves
aren't much better.
Now it's +3, I'll go out and move firewood.
I don't know the temperature outside right now, but a light jacket might
be nice if inactive, or blasting up the river in an open boat at 60+mph.
-aSuch a light jacket would be quickly shed once activity was initiated.
I've been to Detroit and Flint, neither tempted me to stay.Suspect Detroit has improved a lot since then, not so much Flint...
I've been to Detroit and Flint, neither tempted me to stay.
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10l301r$1059s$1@dont-email.me...
I don't know the temperature outside right now, but a light jacket might
be nice if inactive, or blasting up the river in an open boat at 60+mph.
-aSuch a light jacket would be quickly shed once activity was initiated.
Bob La Londe
-----------------------------
You're lucky. Those due east of you are getting the snow/ice storm we
will suffer tomorrow. https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas-weather-forecast-january-24
On 1/24/2026 11:38 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
On 1/24/2026 6:06 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10ktiqu$192bh$1@dont-email.me...
I don't run heat or AC in the main shop, ...
----------------------
The outdoor temperature here in the warmer southern edge of the state
is +2F / -16C in the 'sun'. An unheated shop would be unpleasant at
the least, as I know from car problems and Army winter field
exercises. Ungloved fingers very rapidly go numb, thin work gloves
aren't much better.
Now it's +3, I'll go out and move firewood.
I don't know the temperature outside right now, but a light jacket
might be nice if inactive, or blasting up the river in an open boat at
60+mph. -a-aSuch a light jacket would be quickly shed once activity was
initiated.
-a You realize we will remember this taunting next August when you're sweltering in 114-# heat ?
I did like the beer out there and in Milwaukee. Draft (not bottled) Andeker >was as good as Oktoberfest.Atwater Brewing in Detroit has a good Vanilla Java Porter nowadays that
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