From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

I think I've been a victim of a constant pummeling of promotion,
ignorant people asking if I 3D print, an onslaught of influencers, and
being weak willed due to an oncoming sniffle.

I ordered a 3D printer over the weekend. Now here is the deal. I can't
think of a single think I "need" to print. Well, there are a couple
things that I could print FOR the new printer when it arrives, but if I
never ordered it I wouldn't "need" to print those things.

I've done the math. For 99.99% of the things I make its cheaper and
faster (time is money) to machine it from raw stock.

3D printing is slow. Its not as good. It still requires a CAD model to start. There is one place where it may be a trade off. Using a slicer
on a 3D model is semi automated, and it might be faster than doing CAM
for a 3 or 3+1 milling operation for some jobs... I think.

There is one area where it might have an edge. Material price. Hold
on. Hold on. I know PLA starts at around $6 per pound on average and
wrought aluminum at about $2-3, but the volumetric difference is huge,
and with good 3D prints there is much less waste & much greater volume
per weight depending on your machining strategy.

After I get things figured out I'll probably be using much more
expensive filaments. ASA and carbon fiber reinforced polymers among
them. Maybe even some of the metalized filaments.

I have some logistical problems.

1. I don't really know squat about the basic nuts and bolts of 3D
printing (filament printing).
2. I don't have a good clean room (not lab clean room) I want to use
for printing.
3. I don't know what I want to print.

I thought about mimicking some of the work by Print Shoot Repeat, but I
have already machined receivers from metal. I'm not sure what would be
gained by making a weaker if lighter receiver, and of course it only
works for certain types of receivers where the force is mostly managed
and contained within the upper like a Glock, AR, SR40, etc.

I did have a customer once tell me to go pound sand once, because I
wouldn't add 3D test prints and multiple iterations to making his parts
for the same price as making his parts. "Price sounds great. Now do
all this extra work too and you got a deal." Honestly I don't want that customer anyway. I don't mind doing more work, but I expect to get paid
for it.

Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into the
3D print world. Tell me what its better for than subtractive machining
other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle. 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time
struggling with finding significant advantages.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff


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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10gks1b$1kelm$1@dont-email.me...
...
Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into the
3D print world. Tell me what its better for than subtractive machining
other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle. 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time
struggling with finding significant advantages.
Bob La Londe

------------------------------------
I'm not convinced either but I keep looking. A promising use I saw at a fair was TPU resilient mounts for some old car or machine. That may not benefit
you who can machine molds from a CAD drawing, though.

The more accessible air tank drain is a good suggestion. Mine is a rubber
hose with a needle valve on the end that doesn't make it whip around if slightly opened. I drained it yesterday and was happy to see no sign of
rust, as I had sloshed LPS-3 around the tank and dried it in hot sun before remounting the motor and pump. The white froth is air that dissolved under pressure.

Air can be compressed but water vapor can't, it just condenses. A steam
table lists water vapor pressure at various temperatures. Water boils when
its vapor pressure is 1 atmosphere. https://pages.mtu.edu/~tbco/cm3230/steamtables.pdf

Gotta go help the elderly neighbor with his air compressor, he has a flat.


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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

I ordered a 3D printer over the weekend. Now here is the deal. I can't think of a single think I "need" to print. Well, there are a couple
things that I could print FOR the new printer when it arrives, but if I never ordered it I wouldn't "need" to print those things.

[much snippage}

Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into the
3D print world. Tell me what its better for than subtractive machining other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I'm talking completely out of my hat, but maybe 3d printing would have advantages is making things like sacrificial patterns for investment
casting. For example, a cylinder head needs some precision surfaces
but also quite a few non-precision passages for gases or liquids.
The precision surfaces for valves, cylinder seats, intake and exhaust
manifolds are external. The internal ports and water passages are
generally not, or at least not easily accessible. They need to
be reasonably smooth and I think 3d printing might be good enough.
It would allow much more intricate placement of cooling passages
around valve seats and direct fuel injection ports.

The methods would be particularly applicable to smallish cylinders,
such as those needed for drones. That is likely to be a growing
market....

Countercurrent heat exchangers are another example that comes to mind,
though brazed plate exchangers seem hard to compete with.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle. 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time struggling with finding significant advantages.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

BP wrote in message news:10glflt$1rv57$1@dont-email.me...

I'm talking completely out of my hat, but maybe 3d printing would have advantages is making things like sacrificial patterns for investment
casting. For example, a cylinder head needs some precision surfaces
but also quite a few non-precision passages for gases or liquids.
The precision surfaces for valves, cylinder seats, intake and exhaust
manifolds are external. The internal ports and water passages are
generally not, or at least not easily accessible. They need to
be reasonably smooth and I think 3d printing might be good enough.
It would allow much more intricate placement of cooling passages
around valve seats and direct fuel injection ports.

The methods would be particularly applicable to smallish cylinders,
such as those needed for drones. That is likely to be a growing
market....

Countercurrent heat exchangers are another example that comes to mind,
though brazed plate exchangers seem hard to compete with.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

-------------------------------------------
When I was very young I watched sand casting molds being made in a small nearby foundry. The wood patterns didn't include reentrant details which
they hand carved in the sand to templates. The critical features were oversized to be machined later. These were replacement parts for old looms
and I think they needed to be custom fitted to other refurbished parts. For one piece or a small batch this method could be faster and easier than creating a CAD drawing.

Lost Wax is another casting method that enables considerable complexity. https://www.hitchiner.com/

Engine cylinder heads are sand cast by the similar Lost Foam process in
which the incoming molten metal vaporizes the styrofoam pattern. The
styrofoam bead outlines may be captured in the mold sand and visible on the metal.

3D printing is used for the complex fuel and oxidizer passages in a rocket engine, with advanced methods such as laser sintering of refractive alloys. https://www.eos.info/industries/space/rocket-engines

The low strength of easily melted filament limits what home users can do.
Some small machines I've seen at a Maker Space can print stronger
glass-filled nylon or laser sinter metal powder. When I asked about CAD classes they gave no useful answer.

So far everything strong I've wanted to make could be done by traditional methods of welding and machining, or braze buildup and filing for electrical contacts. Plaster, epoxy, Bondo or heat-hardening polymer clay (PVC resin) serve for shapes that don't need much strength. I practiced MIG and TIG
puddle control by piling up metal freehand. Hot melt glue can be sculpted
like wax or glass with a narrow nozzle heat gun. Some curves are easier to form by hand and eye than specify mathematically, wood lathe turnings for example.



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

This shows the potential of traditional sand casting:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/photos-the-secrets-of-casting-those-elegant-pratt-and-whitney-radial-heads.307618/

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 09:03:31 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

3D printing is used for the complex fuel and oxidizer passages in a rocket >engine, with advanced methods such as laser sintering of refractive alloys... The suppressor/silencer makers are going to 3D printing too. Allows them

to make complex passages with materials like titanium that would be
impossible to make by machining or so they claimEfn+N+A https://www.silencershop.com/blog/3d-printed-suppressor
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/2/2025 7:03 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

BP wrote in message news:10glflt$1rv57$1@dont-email.me...

I'm talking completely out of my hat, but maybe 3d printing would have advantages is making things like sacrificial patterns for investment
casting. For example, a cylinder head needs some precision surfaces
but also quite a few non-precision passages for gases or liquids.
The precision surfaces for valves, cylinder seats, intake and exhaust manifolds are external. The internal ports and water passages are
generally not, or at least not easily accessible. They need to
be reasonably smooth and I think 3d printing might be good enough.
It would allow much more intricate placement of cooling passages
around valve seats and direct fuel injection ports.

The methods would be particularly applicable to smallish cylinders,
such as those needed for drones. That is likely to be a growing
market....

Countercurrent heat exchangers are another example that comes to mind,
though brazed plate exchangers seem hard to compete with.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

-------------------------------------------
When I was very young I watched sand casting molds being made in a small nearby foundry. The wood patterns didn't include reentrant details which they hand carved in the sand to templates. The critical features were oversized to be machined later. These were replacement parts for old
looms and I think they needed to be custom fitted to other refurbished parts. For one piece or a small batch this method could be faster and
easier than creating a CAD drawing.

Lost Wax is another casting method that enables considerable complexity. https://www.hitchiner.com/

Lost wax is heavily used in jewelry making. A local jeweler I know has
a small 5 axis mill on a bench in the back making wax blanks almost 24/7.

Engine cylinder heads are sand cast by the similar Lost Foam process in which the incoming molten metal vaporizes the styrofoam pattern. The styrofoam bead outlines may be captured in the mold sand and visible on
the metal.

I've watch a few videos during my morning coffee that cast engine
blacks. They used hard rammed sand around reusable patterns. I don't
recall off hand, but they may have used a sodium silicate rammed and carbonated to bond the sand. Cores may have been sand formed in a mold.
That's the way I would do it anyway.

3D printing is used for the complex fuel and oxidizer passages in a
rocket engine, with advanced methods such as laser sintering of
refractive alloys.
https://www.eos.info/industries/space/rocket-engines

There are some filaments specifically designed to be used in a lost foam method. They have to be well vented for all the gases to escape.

The low strength of easily melted filament limits what home users can
do. Some small machines I've seen at a Maker Space can print stronger glass-filled nylon or laser sinter metal powder. When I asked about CAD classes they gave no useful answer.

I think with machining CAD is based on background and opportunity.**
They choose what feels natural or that has a learning curve for
themselves that works. That being said I think a lot of 3D printing
guys start out printing a gazillion patterns they can download off
various free (or lost cost) files sites.

** I chose ViaCAD that way. It has lots of bugs, but a very powerful
tool library. I watch a couple videos by Tim Olsen (the original
author), downloaded the demo, and then followed along with his beginner videos. I picked it up very quickly, and it lends it self to my
personal philosophy of not having to rent it.

So far everything strong I've wanted to make could be done by
traditional methods of welding and machining, or braze buildup and
filing for electrical contacts. Plaster, epoxy, Bondo or heat-hardening polymer clay (PVC resin) serve for shapes that don't need much strength.
I practiced MIG and TIG puddle control by piling up metal freehand. Hot
melt glue can be sculpted like wax or glass with a narrow nozzle heat
gun. Some curves are easier to form by hand and eye than specify mathematically, wood lathe turnings for example.

I think I bought it with the intent that it might turn out like my first
CNC mill. Didn't have much idea what I would use it for, but once I had
it jobs jumped out at me. They say, "If the only tool you have is a
hammer everything looks like a nail," but I have to add, "and as soon as
you have a screwdriver to your tool kit you discover an easier way to
drive screws."

If I have an aha moment or an epiphany on 3D printing I'll try to
remember to post about it here.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/2/2025 8:25 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 09:03:31 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

3D printing is used for the complex fuel and oxidizer passages in a rocket >> engine, with advanced methods such as laser sintering of refractive alloys...

The suppressor/silencer makers are going to 3D printing too. Allows them
to make complex passages with materials like titanium that would be impossible to make by machining or so they claimEfn+N+A

https://www.silencershop.com/blog/3d-printed-suppressor

I was just thinking about silencers the other day. A friend of mine
lives in a state that does not outlaw silencers, but does outlaw
threaded barrels. He bought a target pistol that was integrally
suppressed. I was thinking a ring groove, and concentric OD would allow
two piece muzzle devices to be added, and simply clamped closed around
the muzzle with screws... Actually my first thought was a constricting
iris device to clamp in place and a ring to absorb shock and act as a
gas check, but a two piece muzzle device seems so much easier. Maybe
not "all" of those printed shapes could be made that way, but I bet they
would be "good enough."
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:36:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:
<snip>

If I have an aha moment or an epiphany on 3D printing I'll try to
remember to post about it here.

In other places I'm active... people are 3D printing repair parts for
stuff that broke or doesn't quite work like they want. A lot of times a
3D search will find something already designed to print if it's a
popular item. Here is Yeggi search for Vanguard Tripod mounts. https://www.yeggi.com/q/vanguard+tripod+qs+60/
Vanguard seemed to make a new quick-release mount for every new tripod
design. Some are no longer available. I bought a decent Vanguard Tripod
at a thrift store for a few dollars. I saw it was missing the
quick-plate but figured it would be easy to find a replacement. It
wasn't. Ended up making something myself but a 3D printed one would
have been a good way to go if I had a printer...
I've read where obsolete sights for firearms and other missing parts can
be done too. Like missing front blades and such that don't need a lot of strength.
I would love to play around with a Curta Mechanical calculator. The
real item is kinda pricey and out of my play money comfort zone. But
you can 3D print a pseudo version albeit a bit oinky to doEfn+N+A https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1943171
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 01/12/2025 19:58, Bob La Londe wrote:

I think I've been a victim of a constant pummeling of promotion,
ignorant people asking if I 3D print, an onslaught of influencers, and
being weak willed due to an oncoming sniffle.

I ordered a 3D printer over the weekend.-a Now here is the deal.-a I
can't think of a single think I "need" to print.-a Well, there are a
couple things that I could print FOR the new printer when it arrives,
but if I never ordered it I wouldn't "need" to print those things.

I've done the math.-a For 99.99% of the things I make its cheaper and
faster (time is money) to machine it from raw stock.

3D printing is slow.-a Its not as good.-a It still requires a CAD model
to start. There is one place where it may be a trade off. Using a
slicer on a 3D model is semi automated, and it might be faster than
doing CAM for a 3 or 3+1 milling operation for some jobs... I think.

There is one area where it might have an edge.-a Material price. Hold
on.-a Hold on.-a I know PLA starts at around $6 per pound on average and wrought aluminum at about $2-3, but the volumetric difference is huge,
and with good 3D prints there is much less waste & much greater volume
per weight depending on your machining strategy.

After I get things figured out I'll probably be using much more
expensive filaments.-a ASA and carbon fiber reinforced-a polymers among them.-a Maybe even some of the metalized filaments.

I have some logistical problems.

1.-a I don't really know squat about the basic nuts and bolts of 3D
printing (filament printing).
2.-a I don't have a good clean room (not lab clean room) I want to use
for printing.
3.-a I don't know what I want to print.

I thought about mimicking some of the work by Print Shoot Repeat, but
I have already machined receivers from metal.-a I'm not sure what would
be gained by making a weaker if lighter receiver, and of course it
only works for certain types of receivers where the force is mostly
managed and contained within the upper like a Glock, AR, SR40, etc.

I did have a customer once tell me to go pound sand once, because I
wouldn't add 3D test prints and multiple iterations to making his
parts for the same price as making his parts.-a "Price sounds great.
Now do all this extra work too and you got a deal." Honestly I don't
want that customer anyway.-a I don't mind doing more work, but I expect
to get paid for it.

Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into
the 3D print world.-a Tell me what its better for than subtractive
machining other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle.-a 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time struggling with finding significant advantages.

I bought an FLM 3D printer about 6 years ago and have found it more
useful than I thought it would be as it made it much easier to make
complex shapes for tools and fixtures where it being in plastic wasn't
an issue I just had to up-a my 3D modelling skills which are still basic
but get the job done. Plenty of vice soft jaws for custom shapes and
other guides for the linisher, 3D printed a core for the nozzles in a
burner head in PLA and melted it out after the refractory castable had
set. A mate prints various items including carburettor gaskets in TPU.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10gnijv$2kvd3$1@dont-email.me...

I've watch a few videos during my morning coffee that cast engine blocks. They used hard rammed sand around reusable patterns. I don't recall off hand, but they may have used a sodium silicate rammed and carbonated to
bond the sand. Cores may have been sand formed in a mold. That's the way I would do it anyway.

The sand has at minimum a little clay in it and when dampened can be formed like a snowball. The old and home way to make more rigid core sand is to add molasses or linseed oil. Half-round molds of any size can be formed with a core box plane. The desired final size is increased by the thermal
contraction and machining allowances. The ends of cores fit into "core
print" recesses from the main pattern, most easily on the parting line. https://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking-tools/hand/the-stanley-57-core-box-plane

Sodium silicate can be made from pool filter diatomaceous earth (DE, silica sea shells) and caustic soda drain cleaner. I use it to bind the ends of braided high temperature thermocouple insulation.

I acquired a bucket of sand and set of old tools from a foundry operator who was happy to see someone interested in his craft and stories. I made my cope and drag (mold boxes) from early childhood memory. The "riddle" needed a new wire screen which was easy. The floor-length leather apron came from a
foundry supply company in northern MA. https://www.linkedin.com/company/malcolm-g-stevens-inc

I think with machining CAD is based on background and opportunity. ...
I chose ViaCAD that way.

My CAD experience is on electronic schematic and circuit board layout programs, whose line drawing capability is primitive, though adequate for machined RF-tight enclosures and my home machining projects. I may not have much to unlearn. I learned paper drafting practice in school.

They say, "If the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail," but I have to add, "and as soon as you have a screwdriver to your tool kit you discover an easier way to drive screws."

Before cordless Makitas in theatre set construction a hammer was a "New York Screwdriver".

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10gnitc$2kvd2$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/2/2025 8:25 AM, Leon Fisk wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 09:03:31 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

3D printing is used for the complex fuel and oxidizer passages in a
rocket
engine, with advanced methods such as laser sintering of refractive
alloys...

The suppressor/silencer makers are going to 3D printing too. Allows them
to make complex passages with materials like titanium that would be impossible to make by machining or so they claimEfn+N+A

https://www.silencershop.com/blog/3d-printed-suppressor

I was just thinking about silencers the other day. A friend of mine
lives in a state that does not outlaw silencers, but does outlaw
threaded barrels. He bought a target pistol that was integrally
suppressed. I was thinking a ring groove, and concentric OD would allow
two piece muzzle devices to be added, and simply clamped closed around
the muzzle with screws... Actually my first thought was a constricting
iris device to clamp in place and a ring to absorb shock and act as a
gas check, but a two piece muzzle device seems so much easier. Maybe
not "all" of those printed shapes could be made that way, but I bet they
would be "good enough."
Bob La Londe
---------------------------------
My gunsmithing is limited to custom screw heads and will stay that way. This formerly very conservative and free state has been made a "swing state" by
MA intrusion. They don't know self-reliance and try to duplicate the restrictive socialist culture whose negatives they moved to avoid. We hear that first-hand in their arguments at Town Meeting. The laws here can flip either way.

https://stanfordreview.org/the-myth-of-the-tolerant-left/

A black female engineer from Tennessee told me she moved to Boston to find tolerance and was amazed how rare it was in MA, despite their
self-proclaimed reputation. I think I was her only white friend. I learned a lot from her and from my office mate, a very capable black engineer from Barbados.

The intolerance and attacks on Jewish students at Harvard was no surprise to those familiar with elitist MA culture. Self-superiority based on the
beliefs you profess is everything and those beliefs must not be challenged.
I get that from all sides.

I'd been in the Army where everyone's color was green, officially and often
in practice. My father's family is from Georgia and Alabama so I've heard their side on race and religion too, and didn't argue.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:33:02 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:36:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

If I have an aha moment or an epiphany on 3D printing I'll try to
remember to post about it here.

In other places I'm active... people are 3D printing repair parts for
stuff that broke or doesn't quite work like they want. A lot of times a
3D search will find something already designed to print if it's a
popular item. Here is Yeggi search for Vanguard Tripod mounts.

https://www.yeggi.com/q/vanguard+tripod+qs+60/

Vanguard seemed to make a new quick-release mount for every new tripod >design. Some are no longer available. I bought a decent Vanguard Tripod
at a thrift store for a few dollars. I saw it was missing the
quick-plate but figured it would be easy to find a replacement. It
wasn't. Ended up making something myself but a 3D printed one would
have been a good way to go if I had a printer...

I've read where obsolete sights for firearms and other missing parts can
be done too. Like missing front blades and such that don't need a lot of >strength.

I would love to play around with a Curta Mechanical calculator. The
real item is kinda pricey and out of my play money comfort zone. But
you can 3D print a pseudo version albeit a bit oinky to do??

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1943171

Ah - the "peppermill" rallye calculator!!!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:33:02 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:36:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

If I have an aha moment or an epiphany on 3D printing I'll try to
remember to post about it here.

In other places I'm active... people are 3D printing repair parts for
stuff that broke or doesn't quite work like they want. A lot of times a
3D search will find something already designed to print if it's a
popular item. Here is Yeggi search for Vanguard Tripod mounts.

https://www.yeggi.com/q/vanguard+tripod+qs+60/

Vanguard seemed to make a new quick-release mount for every new tripod >design. Some are no longer available. I bought a decent Vanguard Tripod
at a thrift store for a few dollars. I saw it was missing the
quick-plate but figured it would be easy to find a replacement. It
wasn't. Ended up making something myself but a 3D printed one would
have been a good way to go if I had a printer...

I've read where obsolete sights for firearms and other missing parts can
be done too. Like missing front blades and such that don't need a lot of >strength.

I would love to play around with a Curta Mechanical calculator. The
real item is kinda pricey and out of my play money comfort zone. But
you can 3D print a pseudo version albeit a bit oinky to do??

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1943171

The chap at the next work station (30+ years ago) had a Curta -
fascinating device. He was faster with it than I was n a digital
calculator, he worked mostly by feel!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/1/2025 12:58 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

I think I've been a victim of a constant pummeling of promotion,
ignorant people asking if I 3D print, an onslaught of influencers, and
being weak willed due to an oncoming sniffle.

I ordered a 3D printer over the weekend.-a Now here is the deal.-a I can't think of a single think I "need" to print.-a Well, there are a couple
things that I could print FOR the new printer when it arrives, but if I never ordered it I wouldn't "need" to print those things.

I've done the math.-a For 99.99% of the things I make its cheaper and
faster (time is money) to machine it from raw stock.

3D printing is slow.-a Its not as good.-a It still requires a CAD model to start. There is one place where it may be a trade off.-a Using a slicer
on a 3D model is semi automated, and it might be faster than doing CAM
for a 3 or 3+1 milling operation for some jobs... I think.

There is one area where it might have an edge.-a Material price.-a Hold on.-a Hold on.-a I know PLA starts at around $6 per pound on average and wrought aluminum at about $2-3, but the volumetric difference is huge,
and with good 3D prints there is much less waste & much greater volume
per weight depending on your machining strategy.

After I get things figured out I'll probably be using much more
expensive filaments.-a ASA and carbon fiber reinforced-a polymers among them.-a Maybe even some of the metalized filaments.

I have some logistical problems.

1.-a I don't really know squat about the basic nuts and bolts of 3D
printing (filament printing).
2.-a I don't have a good clean room (not lab clean room) I want to use
for printing.
3.-a I don't know what I want to print.

I thought about mimicking some of the work by Print Shoot Repeat, but I
have already machined receivers from metal.-a I'm not sure what would be gained by making a weaker if lighter receiver, and of course it only
works for certain types of receivers where the force is mostly managed
and contained within the upper like a Glock, AR, SR40, etc.

I did have a customer once tell me to go pound sand once, because I
wouldn't add 3D test prints and multiple iterations to making his parts
for the same price as making his parts.-a "Price sounds great.-a Now do
all this extra work too and you got a deal."-a Honestly I don't want that customer anyway.-a I don't mind doing more work, but I expect to get paid for it.

Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into the
3D print world.-a Tell me what its better for than subtractive machining other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle.-a 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time struggling with finding significant advantages.

As I've mentioned many times before when I have my morning coffee I put YouTube or Rumble videos up on the big screen. Machining, some
politics, forging, off road recovery, fishing, firearms, etc. As Jim
has noted the level of knowledge is more of a dribble than a flow in
such formats, but I find it a relaxing way to start my day. It also
offers me the opportunity to start on chores or research tidbits on my
laptop or cell phone while the video drones on.

This morning I went down a rabbit hole of things to print, various
filaments available, testing (prints not machines), odd case uses.


1. Available designs.

There are a ton of available designs you can just download. Hundreds of thousands if not millions not counting CAD models that were not designed
for 3D printing. One I would consider using is a cell phone mount or variations of it. No. Not for the car, although I have always felt a
mount next to the display screen in my truck would be helpful. As a
camera. For "light" macro to normal room distance a modern cell phone
is the best digital camera most people will ever own. Its even okay for
some action applications within its range. Sure it doesn't have optical
zoom which is a must for distance video, but with the resolution, sound quality, and ease of use its pretty hard to justify buying a camera when
you have one that good in your pocket.* More on that later.

Its an all printed holder with a "C" clamp style base, a swivel ball
mount, and flexure to clamp the phone so it can hold a wide range of
phones. Even in protective cases. This and variations would be crazy
good for shop videos. I could certainly machine a similar mount, but
some parts could be challenging to machine. I could also make a mold to
make the parts, but again there could be some challenges. Its not
strong, but other materials that are stronger would also be heavier.
Strength can also be adjusted based on the next.

2. Filaments.

There is a confoundingly wide array of filaments available for a huge
range of applications. Glass fiber, carbon fiber, metalized, water resistance, heat resistance (to a point), melt out, dissolvable, color,
etc. If I get sucked down the rabbit hole of 3D printing I can see
needing to start a notebook just for various filaments and their
properties.

3. Odd case uses.

One fellow did a video using various 3D printers as injection machines.
It was pretty bad except as an educational exercise. The video was well produced, but using a printer as an injection machine did not work very
well for 99.9999999% of all case applications. He did sorta kinda get something that produced a part or two, but they weren't great, and he
had to use all kinds of tricks, play with heat, get picky about
filaments, and play with heat. I'm not saying it can't be done. Just
that even a hobby desktop lever press injection machine (I have one)
will absolutely produce better, stronger, and larger parts. If you have
ever used a manual injection machine you know its not going to make
large parts. **

4. Its a hugely popular hobby in the makersphere.

This means there are a million guys (maybe literally) sharing
information, and thousands of influencers promoting product, or just
trying to be pro YouTubers. The available knowledge base is huge, if
somewhat watered down by the mixed quality of the information.

5. Price of entry.

Hold on. I know there are crazy cheap CNC machines. I bought one years
ago for about 200 dollars on eBay. (Not my first CNC machine) I was
able to do some crappy minimal work with it, and then I spent a several
times its original price upgrading nearly everything about it. Spindle, motors, controller, etc. It still failed in the end, and I scavenged
the good parts off of it for other projects. For something that works
pretty good and worth repairing when it does have an issue you are going
to pay a couple times what I put into that cheap machine. Something
that can reliably cut modestly accurate (crappy) aluminum molds without
a lot of tedium, upgrades, or repairs. The cheapest machine I use today
to cut aluminum molds was about 10 grand and it would cost 25-30 to
replace it today with an out of the crate usable machine.

A 3D printer is cheap with "pretty okay" ones starting around a thousand dollars or less. A lot less. Maybe some upgrades would be largely
useful to start, but not necessary. I'm no expert (obviously) on 3D
printers, but the popular brands being used by small commercial print
farms (garage shops or maybe just a step up) just aren't that expensive,
and there are usable 3D printers for hobbyists that are even less. The
base price on the printer I ordered to "try out" was less than 500, and
less than 1K even with a four filament feed box attachement, full
enclosure, heated chamber and print bed, hardened steel nozzle for
abrasive filaments, a couple spools of filament, and some other extras I tacked on.


* I have been making crappy videos, mostly to promote my business and business products, for a long time. I have cheap action cameras, an
Insta360 X5 (arguably a top end action cameras), a digital SLR, and I
have (and have had) a number of camcorder style digital cameras with
actual optical zoom. I've been doing it a while. My first digital
cameras used the large CF cards. One I still use sometimes is only 720P
and has an actual hard drive for data storage. I still use my cell
phone most of the time for shop videos. There are lots of
"professional" YouTubers who use cell phones for their videography, and atleast one I saw recently with almost a million followers who said they
use almost exclusively iPhones for the camera work. I have actually considered buying up used phones, nuking most of their capacity, and
using them just as cameras myself. You don't need the latest and
greatest either. Several generations back cell phone cameras were
better than good enough for this sort of work.

** I know a little bit about injection molding. I'm not being modest.
I mostly make low precision low pressure injection molds or low
precision gravity casting molds. For high pressure injection I only
know a little. My desktop machine technically counts as high pressure injection, but even with a cheater bar on the handle I doubt I even
approach a ton of injection pressure when hanging off the handle. That
being said, I do "know" that most common polymers make stronger parts
when injected at the lower end of their temperature range for flow and
at higher pressures. This makes item 3 a non starter for me. I'm not
saying there are not odd cases that would be hugely useful. Just that
the one I mentioned is probably not ever going to be tried in my shop.
I may make a 3D mold and try medium pressure injection, but I can't see
ever using the 3D printer as an injection machine.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/3/2025 8:51 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

*-a I have been making crappy videos, mostly to promote my business and business products, for a long time.-a I have cheap action cameras, an Insta360 X5 (arguably a top end action cameras), a digital SLR, and I
have (and have had) a number of camcorder style digital cameras with
actual optical zoom.-a I've been doing it a while.-a My first digital cameras used the large CF cards.-a One I still use sometimes is only 720P and has an actual hard drive for data storage.-a I still use my cell
phone most of the time for shop videos.-a There are lots of
"professional" YouTubers who use cell phones for their videography, and atleast one I saw recently with almost a million followers who said they
use almost exclusively iPhones for the camera work.-a I have actually considered buying up used phones, nuking most of their capacity, and
using them just as cameras myself.-a You don't need the latest and
greatest either.-a Several generations back cell phone cameras were
better than good enough for this sort of work.

Here is an example. Its only a minute long, and I am posting the
YouTube link for those of you who want "smaller" bandwidth or live in restricted nations that can't view Rumble videos.

https://youtube.com/shorts/NOjwTPU88dc?si=d9hP_jJY02iVWRba
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 08:51:07 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

Its an all printed holder with a "C" clamp style base, a swivel ball
mount, and flexure to clamp the phone so it can hold a wide range of
phones. Even in protective cases. This and variations would be crazy
good for shop videos. I could certainly machine a similar mount, but
some parts could be challenging to machine...

I have one of these, fits the Arca-Swiss quick mount. There's a LOT of different variations of this. I took the phone grabber knobs off and
replaced them with slightly longer versions. It grabbed hold of my Moto
Ace 5G in a rugged case but just barely.

https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Cell-Phone-Tripod-Mount/dp/B08XK8KWYX/

Also got one of these Quick Release Plate for Arca-Swiss Tripods. It's
what I adapted to the Vanguard Tripod mentioned in earlier post. These
come in different size variations too. The Arca-Swiss is being used on
tripod mounts for firearms nowadays. You might already have it. It's a
really solid quick-mount...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264635022343
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Tue, 02 Dec 2025 23:47:22 -0500, Gerry <geraldrmiller@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 17:33:02 -0400, Leon Fisk <lfiskgr@gmail.invalid>
wrote:

On Tue, 2 Dec 2025 13:36:15 -0700
Bob La Londe <none@none.com99> wrote:

<snip>

If I have an aha moment or an epiphany on 3D printing I'll try to >>>remember to post about it here.

In other places I'm active... people are 3D printing repair parts for
stuff that broke or doesn't quite work like they want. A lot of times a
3D search will find something already designed to print if it's a
popular item. Here is Yeggi search for Vanguard Tripod mounts.

https://www.yeggi.com/q/vanguard+tripod+qs+60/

Vanguard seemed to make a new quick-release mount for every new tripod >>design. Some are no longer available. I bought a decent Vanguard Tripod
at a thrift store for a few dollars. I saw it was missing the
quick-plate but figured it would be easy to find a replacement. It
wasn't. Ended up making something myself but a 3D printed one would
have been a good way to go if I had a printer...

I've read where obsolete sights for firearms and other missing parts can
be done too. Like missing front blades and such that don't need a lot of >>strength.

I would love to play around with a Curta Mechanical calculator. The
real item is kinda pricey and out of my play money comfort zone. But
you can 3D print a pseudo version albeit a bit oinky to do??

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1943171

The chap at the next work station (30+ years ago) had a Curta -
fascinating device. He was faster with it than I was n a digital
calculator, he worked mostly by feel!

When we were rallying back in the '70s all the pro guys had them. My
navigator had a HP but seldom used it. It was faster for him even then
to do the calcs in his head and on paper
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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:10gpv5m$3hk5q$1@dont-email.me...

Also got one of these Quick Release Plate for Arca-Swiss Tripods. It's
what I adapted to the Vanguard Tripod mentioned in earlier post. These
come in different size variations too. The Arca-Swiss is being used on
tripod mounts for firearms nowadays. You might already have it. It's a
really solid quick-mount...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/264635022343
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
--------------------------------------

How would you add a metal threaded insert to a 3D print?

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 08:51:07 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:
...

2. Filaments.

There is a confoundingly wide array of filaments available for a huge
range of applications. Glass fiber, carbon fiber, metalized, water resistance, heat resistance (to a point), melt out, dissolvable, color,
etc. If I get sucked down the rabbit hole of 3D printing I can see
needing to start a notebook just for various filaments and their
properties.

...

5. Price of entry. > ... > The
base price on the printer I ordered to "try out" was less than 500, and
less than 1K even with a four filament feed box attachement, full
enclosure, heated chamber and print bed, hardened steel nozzle for
abrasive filaments, a couple spools of filament, and some other extras I tacked on.

Some printers in that price range (eg Bambu P2S) work great with PLA, PETG,
TPU (although most TPU filaments aren't AMS compatible) but have trouble
with GF / CF / metallized filaments, and can't handle high-temp structural filaments like PEEK / PEI / PEKK. The Bambu X1C, around $1000, is aimed
at GF / CF filaments, with a far higher hot end range than P1/P2 series,
but at 300 C doesn't get quite hot enough for PEEK. Some machine shops
are making satisfactory short-run work-holding fixtures with PLA, which
is ok in compression, easy to print, inexpensive. I've printed several thousand small parts in PLA and a few hundred in PETG (tougher and more flexible than PLA), and a few slightly bigger parts, like a 7" crown gear.
Re design, https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/wiki/makingmodels/ has a selection guide for choosing a CAD program, certainly worth looking at if
what you want to do falls into one of the several categories they cover.
In my experience, simple parts (with either only a handful of features,
or with quite-repetitive features) are easy to do with OpenSCAD, but with
more features or complex shapes it gets out of hand. I've done some
fancier parts using FreeCAD, which gets criticized for having a steep
learning curve, although there's excellent in-depth coverage of it in
youtube videos if you have a few weeks to assimilate them.
--
jiw
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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"James Waldby" wrote in message news:10gra31$3vjr2$1@dont-email.me...

... I've done some
fancier parts using FreeCAD, which gets criticized for having a steep
learning curve, although there's excellent in-depth coverage of it in
youtube videos if you have a few weeks to assimilate them.
jiw
------------------------------------

I used PADS PCB for circuit board and machined enclosure design for many
years and learned to tolerate its many quirks and annoyances. It could do everything but the command sequence differs among object types and it
doesn't allow hopping sideways between menu tree branches, which at least helps avoid modifying an adjacent wrong selection, circuit boards are
densely packed in 3 dimensions.

https://community.sw.siemens.com/s/question/0D54O00006ksLqlSAE/how-can-this-product-be-so-bad
"Unfortunately, I can't stop using this software: The company is committed
to it, based on my recommendation (pounds head on desk EfyY ) , so I'll just have to live with it."

It originated at DEC and used the numbered function keys for commands, which was handy for the simpler DOS version but limiting when upgraded for
Windows.

A particularly serious gotcha was that pin designation of diodes varies between libraries, as it's not obvious which should be 1 or 2, A and C are only aliases. I created my own library of all components I used, often with slightly extended pads for soldering rework or test point wires and
tolerances matched to the fabricators' improving capabilities.

New users received and needed a two week training course at their headquarters, fortunately nearby. Electrical engineers using my workstation network for Viewlogic schematic capture stopped asking questions in half a day, with PADS they were still having trouble for a week.

Multilayer high speed circuit board design is tricky anyway and evidently
not taught well enough in college, I had to learn it on my own with little help from above. I also learned ASIC and FPGA (customized IC logic) design
and G code quickly without help.

How relatively difficult is FreeCAD?

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 21:53:48 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

How would you add a metal threaded insert to a 3D print?

Don't have a 3D Printer... only know about what I've readEfn+N+A
Hackaday has several pointers for this, mostly by using inserts: https://hackaday.com/blog/?s=3d+insert
I've read that nuts can be embedded while printing too. Nut Traps?
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI
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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:10gs4gg$989n$1@dont-email.me...
On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 21:53:48 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

How would you add a metal threaded insert to a 3D print?

Don't have a 3D Printer... only know about what I've readEfn+N+A
Hackaday has several pointers for this, mostly by using inserts: https://hackaday.com/blog/?s=3d+insert
I've read that nuts can be embedded while printing too. Nut Traps?
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

-----------------------------------
Thanks, I didn't know about that type of insert.

At Segway 'someone' inadvertently screwed a valuable injection molded prototype part together with permanent Loctite and I was tasked to salvage
it. Such tasks are thankless to protect the guilty, typically a department head with little hands-on experience.

Molten solder on the screw heads softened the plastic around the brass
inserts enough to ease out and unscrew them and epoxy in the hole secured
them back in well enough that I heard nothing more.

I made a number of repairs with epoxy covered with clear tape or plastic
film to make it hand moldable as it stiffened. Often in an electronics lab
one has to make repairs with office supplies, like Wite-Out as solder mask
and file folders to model sheet metal.

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/3/2025 7:53 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

How would you add a metal threaded insert to a 3D print?

Generally they seem to be melted in. I've seen a hot iron tool used
with the insert stuck on the end. I always wondered if the plastic
flowed in enough to really bond them. A hot screw in insert, in my
mind, might hold better.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/4/2025 6:04 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

How relatively difficult is FreeCAD?

I have used to other 3D CAD systems with some success. Fusion and
ViaCAD. I found the strictly parametric modeling of Fusion slow and restrictive. Use that as a basis for evaluating if ther eis any vlaue
in my opinion of FreeCAD.

From what I have "seen" it is very powerful, but I have failed to
complete any work with it.* It has a steep learning curve couple with different standards and interface look/feel in different modules. I
guess there are some "skins" that can reduce some of that or be selected
so atleast part of it has a similar feel to some other CAD program you
may already be familiar with. I never got to the point of seeing that.
The steep learning curve is partly because there is a lot power there,
partly because it was created by coders who may or may not have had
design backgrounds, and partly because it is open source with lots of
add-ons written be different people who wrote their own part to suit themselves.

*Well, I did use it to analyze some third party surface meshes, but I
didn't actually succeed in repairing them.

FreeCAD may very well be the most cpable free CAD there is, but as has mentioned the learning curve is steep. It may very well be more capable
than many commercial CAD programs.

I have a FreeCAD icon on my desktop, but I can't recall the last time I
opened the program.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10gsmpq$k1a2$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/4/2025 6:04 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

How relatively difficult is FreeCAD?

I have used to other 3D CAD systems with some success. Fusion and
ViaCAD. I found the strictly parametric modeling of Fusion slow and restrictive.

------------------------------------- https://wiki.freecad.org/Creating_a_simple_part_with_Part_WB

This is very similar to the way I create line drawings in PADS by assembling and moving models of features and subassemblies such as bolts and ball bearings and rolled steel sections. FreeCAD looks like a good winter
project.

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/2/2025 4:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The sand has at minimum a little clay in it and when dampened can be
formed like a snowball.

Preferably bentonite clay, and what you describe is called green sand.
In the hobby realm atleast, it seems many small foundries are
transitioning to petrobond where managing moisture content when not
engaged in the hobby for some time is not an issue. Petrobond uses oil instead of water for the same/similar affect. To make it clump when
rammed. I think Windy Hill Foundry (cast iron foundry business) also
uses petropond as their default casting sand.

Sodium silicate. Its used in solution in place of just plain water.
CO2 causes it to harden allowing for few or no inclusions, and more
detailed molds made from more complex patterns. The CO2 in air is
enough, but venting can help for faster mold prep, and for even faster
casting C02 is sometimes flushed through the mold from a gas bottle. I
first ran across it when I was researching how to recycle 6061 which is
not a good casting alloy unmodified. That was when I first discovered
the guys building the SV Seeker marine research vessel. They were
casting custom porthole covers in sand molds using sodium silicate to
make more rigid sand molds.

FYI: The addition of more silicon metal can improve the cast-ability of
6061. I think I read 6-7% additional silicon, but one fellow I chatted
with claimed he got usable results with as little as 4% more silicon. I
have a small gas foundry furnace on the shelf along side a couple bags
of silicon metal, but I have not had the time to play with it. I also
have a LOT of 6061 scrap. I've thrown away barrels of the stuff, but
lately I've been cutting the tops out of old Roundup(tm) barrels
purchased cheap and using them to store scrap. Its why I asked a while
back about aftermarket barrel covers.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff

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From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/1/2025 12:58 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

I think I've been a victim of a constant pummeling of promotion,
ignorant people asking if I 3D print, an onslaught of influencers, and
being weak willed due to an oncoming sniffle.

I ordered a 3D printer over the weekend.-a Now here is the deal.-a I can't think of a single think I "need" to print.-a Well, there are a couple
things that I could print FOR the new printer when it arrives, but if I never ordered it I wouldn't "need" to print those things.

I've done the math.-a For 99.99% of the things I make its cheaper and
faster (time is money) to machine it from raw stock.

3D printing is slow.-a Its not as good.-a It still requires a CAD model to start. There is one place where it may be a trade off.-a Using a slicer
on a 3D model is semi automated, and it might be faster than doing CAM
for a 3 or 3+1 milling operation for some jobs... I think.

There is one area where it might have an edge.-a Material price.-a Hold on.-a Hold on.-a I know PLA starts at around $6 per pound on average and wrought aluminum at about $2-3, but the volumetric difference is huge,
and with good 3D prints there is much less waste & much greater volume
per weight depending on your machining strategy.

After I get things figured out I'll probably be using much more
expensive filaments.-a ASA and carbon fiber reinforced-a polymers among them.-a Maybe even some of the metalized filaments.

I have some logistical problems.

1.-a I don't really know squat about the basic nuts and bolts of 3D
printing (filament printing).
2.-a I don't have a good clean room (not lab clean room) I want to use
for printing.
3.-a I don't know what I want to print.

I thought about mimicking some of the work by Print Shoot Repeat, but I
have already machined receivers from metal.-a I'm not sure what would be gained by making a weaker if lighter receiver, and of course it only
works for certain types of receivers where the force is mostly managed
and contained within the upper like a Glock, AR, SR40, etc.

I did have a customer once tell me to go pound sand once, because I
wouldn't add 3D test prints and multiple iterations to making his parts
for the same price as making his parts.-a "Price sounds great.-a Now do
all this extra work too and you got a deal."-a Honestly I don't want that customer anyway.-a I don't mind doing more work, but I expect to get paid for it.

Some of you guys must have gotten dragged kicking and screaming into the
3D print world.-a Tell me what its better for than subtractive machining other than a handful of parts that can't easily be machine.

I do see where injection molding is good for production parts, but
injection molding makes a stronger part in seconds per cycle.-a 3D
printing escapes me and yet I have fallen victim after a long time struggling with finding significant advantages.

I've recently run into two things that may expand the scope of 3D
printing in my mind. No real epiphany here, but maybe an expansion of
scope.

One I already knew and mentioned. Undercuts. You can 3D print stuff
with undercuts impractical or evne impossible to make by sutractive
machining without complex setups, and changing relatively simple single structures into complex multiple part assembled structures. I'm talking
about things beyond a non-uniform parting line. I had a customer
recently send me a nice 3D .stp STEP file. One of the few that didn't translate broke or with artifacts. They had 3D printed a mold from it.
There are many things wrong with plastic for mold making, but was
injecting a soft cure media, and the undercuts did not prevent the part
from being demolded. A machined aluminum mold would be superior for
this media for many many reasons, but cutting it would be a lot of work requiring very very small cutters. I don't think I could tilt the plate enough to use those tiny cutters with their very short stick out enough
to cut the features with crashing the tool holder into the part. I
suggested some alternatives, but I have not heard back from them. That
last part is no surprise. When I tell people the truth about what they
want they often ghost me. I prefer that to those who imply I am a liar
or competent, and they will just get somebody who knows what they are
doing. In their case I don't think I would make their part by
subtractive machining even on an articulating head 5+ axis machine.
Maybe...

Parts where the raw material cost is. You need a bronze bushing.
Bronze is expensive. You can usually buy a bronze bushing cheaper than
the raw stock to machine one. If you are setup for it, and have been
saving scrap you might be able to cast a bronze blank and then finish to
spec, but generally the raw material is expensive. If a usable bushing
is already available its probably cheaper. How about 3D printed bronze?
You might make the argument that, "Sure, that's great if you can stock
10 grand worth of bronze powder,and you already have a quarter million
dollar laser sintering 3D printer. The part is cheap, but the barrier
to entry is quite high. No. There are filaments that can be printed (according to the manufacturer) on the same printers as PLA as easily as
PLA. I can only assume they mean with a hardened steel or carbide
nozzle. At this point I am falling back on sales propaganda, but it
might have some potential. The thing is its not the price of PLA. A
1/2 kg spool of aluminum filament is over two hundred bucks. Amazingly
a 1/2 KG spool of bronze filament is a little less (not much). Still
its expensive, and to finish with a full metal part you have cook it in
a furnace after printing to burn off the binder. It sounds like a
compromise part, but maybe there is something there. I'm leaning
towards probably not. If I already have a furnace (I do) I think it
would still be faster and cheaper to cast a blank and machine to spec.
There may be something there, but I am sure the nuance escapes me.

Well, I have a dozen(+) blanks to cut from wrought stock and a bunch of
molds to cut. Another Sunday spent in the shop trying to catch up.
Hopefully nobody falls, dies, or has a personal emergency today dragging
me out of the shop yet again.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10h4d93$3jrfc$1@dont-email.me...

Parts where the raw material cost is. You need a bronze bushing.
Bronze is expensive. You can usually buy a bronze bushing cheaper than
the raw stock to machine one. If you are setup for it, and have been
saving scrap you might be able to cast a bronze blank and then finish to
spec, but generally the raw material is expensive. If a usable bushing
is already available its probably cheaper. How about 3D printed bronze?
You might make the argument that, "Sure, that's great if you can stock
10 grand worth of bronze powder,and you already have a quarter million
dollar laser sintering 3D printer. The part is cheap, but the barrier
to entry is quite high. No. There are filaments that can be printed (according to the manufacturer) on the same printers as PLA as easily as
PLA. I can only assume they mean with a hardened steel or carbide
nozzle. At this point I am falling back on sales propaganda, but it
might have some potential. The thing is its not the price of PLA. A
1/2 kg spool of aluminum filament is over two hundred bucks. Amazingly
a 1/2 KG spool of bronze filament is a little less (not much). Still
its expensive, and to finish with a full metal part you have cook it in
a furnace after printing to burn off the binder. It sounds like a
compromise part, but maybe there is something there. I'm leaning
towards probably not. If I already have a furnace (I do) I think it
would still be faster and cheaper to cast a blank and machine to spec.
There may be something there, but I am sure the nuance escapes me.

------------------------
Interesting but not yet useful for me. https://thevirtualfoundry.com/debind-sinter/?

I watch what 3D has made to learn to think in its design terms, as I now
think and design in terms of what my lathe and mill can (or can't) do. I was introduced to 3D printing of ABS at Segway 20 years ago and saw that it
isn't strong enough for stressed parts of moving machinery, the sort of
thing I may have to make or repair. I've seen some impressive recent 3D work at a Maker Space but not enough to tempt me to join.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

So far 3D printing seems to me similar to the scenery and prop making of theatre, it can form artistic shapes mostly without function. I take it as incompletely substituting for expensive machine tools or the skill of a sculptor instead of replacing them.

I've been practicing hammering sheet metal into compound curves instead of pursuing 3D, to make things I need but can't buy. For example a replacement floor panel for my truck unnecessarily copies the no longer needed factory
dip priming drain hole of the original, my patch continues a stiffening rib across that area instead.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

This rule would be a severe restriction for me. I've cut pulley grooves for vee belts, steel cable and serpentine belts, all of which violate it. https://3dplatform.com/blogs/blog/printing-overhangs-beyond-45-degrees

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 07:43:42 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

So far 3D printing seems to me similar to the scenery and prop making of >theatre, it can form artistic shapes mostly without function. I take it as >incompletely substituting for expensive machine tools or the skill of a >sculptor instead of replacing them.

There are some commercial 3D machines out building structure parts.
Read this awhile back, took me awhile to find it again...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/3d-printing-isnt-just-for-supercars-now-its-for-drone-wings-too/
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:10h6km0$4b7q$1@dont-email.me...

There are some commercial 3D machines out building structure parts.
Read this awhile back, took me awhile to find it again...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/3d-printing-isnt-just-for-supercars-now-its-for-drone-wings-too/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

----------------------------------------

Thanks, that is very interesting. I don't have the mechanical engineering education to design beyond stock shapes of known properties. I just built
what the Ph.Ds designed.

I've been considering hobby level 3D printing versus manual machining, not high end industrial equipment for which there was little to no need in
testing or communications electronics. The machining I did at Segway was mainly to accommodate added electronics.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Mon, 8 Dec 2025 11:44:54 -0500
"Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:10h6km0$4b7q$1@dont-email.me...

There are some commercial 3D machines out building structure parts.
Read this awhile back, took me awhile to find it again...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/08/3d-printing-isnt-just-for-supercars-now-its-for-drone-wings-too/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

----------------------------------------

Thanks, that is very interesting. I don't have the mechanical engineering >education to design beyond stock shapes of known properties. I just built >what the Ph.Ds designed.

I've been considering hobby level 3D printing versus manual machining, not >high end industrial equipment for which there was little to no need in >testing or communications electronics. The machining I did at Segway was >mainly to accommodate added electronics.

The parts being made were really interesting in shape. They look like
something animal and plants would grow for structure rather than cast
or machined.

I realize these 3D "printers" are out of reach for us peons to have
about just now. I suspect the techniques and material will come down in
price eventually.

There are some 3D Color printers now in our price range...

https://hackaday.com/2025/12/03/3d-printering-that-new-color-printer/
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/7/2025 3:02 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Bob La Londe"-a wrote in message news:10h4d93$3jrfc$1@dont-email.me...

Parts where the raw material cost is.-a You need a bronze bushing.
Bronze is expensive.-a You can usually buy a bronze bushing cheaper than
the raw stock to machine one.-a If you are setup for it, and have been
saving scrap you might be able to cast a bronze blank and then finish to spec, but generally the raw material is expensive.-a If a usable bushing
is already available its probably cheaper.-a How about 3D printed bronze?
-aYou might make the argument that, "Sure, that's great if you can stock
10 grand worth of bronze powder,and you already have a quarter million
dollar laser sintering 3D printer.-a The part is cheap, but the barrier
to entry is quite high.-a No.-a There are filaments that can be printed (according to the manufacturer) on the same printers as PLA as easily as PLA.-a I can only assume they mean with a hardened steel or carbide
nozzle.-a At this point I am falling back on sales propaganda, but it
might have some potential.-a-a The thing is its not the price of PLA.-a A
1/2 kg spool of aluminum filament is over two hundred bucks.-a Amazingly
a 1/2 KG spool of bronze filament is a little less (not much).-a Still
its expensive, and to finish with a full metal part you have cook it in
a furnace after printing to burn off the binder.-a It sounds like a compromise part, but maybe there is something there.-a I'm leaning
towards probably not.-a If I already have a furnace (I do) I think it
would still be faster and cheaper to cast a blank and machine to spec.
There may be something there, but I am sure the nuance escapes me.

------------------------
Interesting but not yet useful for me. https://thevirtualfoundry.com/debind-sinter/?

I watch what 3D has made to learn to think in its design terms, as I now think and design in terms of what my lathe and mill can (or can't) do. I
was introduced to 3D printing of ABS at Segway 20 years ago and saw that
it isn't strong enough for stressed parts of moving machinery, the sort
of thing I may have to make or repair. I've seen some impressive recent
3D work at a Maker Space but not enough to tempt me to join.

I find most things machine faster out of better materials, but for
"additive" manufacturing I would like to be able to turn my scrap into
some form of usable raw stock again. Foundry work.

I found a use case for some supplemental black smithing. You can argue
that blacksmithing is both additive and subtractive manufacturing. I
made a set of wrenches a while back using normal 2.5D machining specific
to some collet chuck tool holders I use everyday. I managed to
partially mangle one end of one of the wrenches. Its 4140HT, and I
figured it would be strong enough before it deformed. It would have
been, but I let it slip. I had cut deep enough for a second wrench, so
I just sliced a wrench off the stock. However, the old wrench could
have been fixed a little faster by taking a step back in time. I set it
out back on the bench near where I use the forge, and the next time I
fireup the forge I'll deform it a little further, and just machine out
the working surfaces that hold the tool holder. Then I can heat treat
it like I should have the first time around. While I did already have a
2nd wrench 90% machined if I didn't it would certainly have been faster
to reforge the mangled wrench than to make a new one from raw stock.

So far none of these thoughts have given me an epiphany about 3D
printing, but thinking about them has started to change how I think
about other processes.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/8/2025 5:43 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

So far 3D printing seems to me similar to the scenery and prop making of theatre, it can form artistic shapes mostly without function. I take it
as incompletely substituting for expensive machine tools or the skill of
a sculptor instead of replacing them.

Look at this cool looking thing I made. Yep. for the most part I
agree, but there are companies selling 3D printed plastic parts.

I've been practicing hammering sheet metal into compound curves instead
of pursuing 3D, to make things I need but can't buy. For example a replacement floor panel for my truck unnecessarily copies the no longer needed factory dip priming drain hole of the original, my patch
continues a stiffening rib across that area instead.

There is one place 3D might be useful. To make one off hammer form or
foam press form tools. I am sure you are familiar with the process of pressing a mold (die?) into heavy rubber foam to form sheet metal.


--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/8/2025 6:21 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

This rule would be a severe restriction for me. I've cut pulley grooves
for vee belts, steel cable and serpentine belts, all of which violate it. https://3dplatform.com/blogs/blog/printing-overhangs-beyond-45-degrees

There are other forms of 3D printing where it might not be an issue.
Filamant and resin to my meager knowledge level might not be suitable,
but laser sintered metal powder might just do the trick. A truly
capable machine would no doubt be beyond the budget of most of us here
in this group, well except for our rich mining magnate from the UK
(GRIN), but it can probably do that kind of work.

I'd have to ask my son about resin printing. I can think of some
strategies where it might work.
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message news:10h76hd$apre$1@dont-email.me...

There are some 3D Color printers now in our price range...

https://hackaday.com/2025/12/03/3d-printering-that-new-color-printer/
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

--------------------------------------------
The inspiration for 3D printing was a molten plastic ink color printer that could pile up ink as Braille or offset printing plates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_printing
"In 1982, Robert Howard came up with the idea to produce a small color printing system that used piezos to spit drops of ink. He formed the
company, R.H. (Robert Howard) Research (named Howtek, Inc. in Feb 1984), and developed the revolutionary technology that led to the Pixelmaster color printer with solid ink using Thermojet technology."

Many of the engineers had been at Centronics. I was their lab tech.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/8/2025 2:28 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The inspiration for 3D printing was a molten plastic ink color printer
that could pile up ink as Braille or offset printing plates.

How does coloring the dots help with braille? ;^)
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10h7agm$cbgu$1@dont-email.me...

There is one place 3D might be useful. To make one off hammer form or
foam press form tools. I am sure you are familiar with the process of
pressing a mold (die?) into heavy rubber foam to form sheet metal.
--
Bob La Londe
---------------------------

Actually my process is medieval, hammer stretching the metal freehand into a deeper depression in end grain oak or flaring a hole into a trumpet horn
shape on the anvil horn and edges. Once stretched spherical it can be
reshaped oval or whatever, the hardest were a watertight rust patch for
where an inner fender well transitions into the conical strut tower and a closely fitted costume armor helmet from a salad bowl that was cylindrical above and conical below.

A punch and die aren't necessary though I have a jewelry-sized dapping punch and block set and have made a hollow silver ball necklace ornament with one. I'd like to find or make a blacksmith swage block. https://blacksmithsdepot.com/products/swage-blocks.html?




--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10h7gea$6q1r$1@dont-email.me...

On 12/8/2025 2:28 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

The inspiration for 3D printing was a molten plastic ink color printer
that could pile up ink as Braille or offset printing plates.

How does coloring the dots help with braille? ;^)
Bob La Londe
---------------------------------
It tests for color blindness.

The inspiration was Ink that had piled up several inches high at the jet
test station.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 08/12/2025 20:15, Bob La Londe wrote:

On 12/8/2025 6:21 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

This rule would be a severe restriction for me. I've cut pulley
grooves for vee belts, steel cable and serpentine belts, all of which
violate it.
https://3dplatform.com/blogs/blog/printing-overhangs-beyond-45-degrees

There are other forms of 3D printing where it might not be an issue. Filamant and resin to my meager knowledge level might not be suitable,
but laser sintered metal powder might just do the trick.-a A truly
capable machine would no doubt be beyond the budget of most of us here
in this group, well except for our rich mining magnate from the UK
(GRIN), but it can probably do that kind of work.

I'd have to ask my son about resin printing.-a I can think of some strategies where it might work.

A mate has had a thermostat housing for his car engine commercially 3D
printed here in the UK and wants to get a metal print of another item
but too expensive here, Hong Kong is a possibility he said as prices are
much lower. the housing has been in use over a year without issue as I understand it.

The one he has had done is nylon base material IIRC and is a powder bed process where a layer of powder is spread and then that has a binder
sprayed on the area requiring bonding and then it's UV cured IIRC.
Overhang not a problem as the powder provides support. Not low end
currently AFAIK but these things creep downwards.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:10h6v97$8qr4$1@dont-email.me...

I've been considering hobby level 3D printing ...

I signed up for night classes in 3D CAD using OnShape, which I can't use at home with a cellular data limit of 10GB a month (no Cable). I downloaded FreeCAD 1.1 which I think works off-line. Is anyone familiar with one or
both?

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

On 12/15/2025 9:10 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

"Jim Wilkins"-a wrote in message news:10h6v97$8qr4$1@dont-email.me...

I've been considering hobby level 3D printing ...

I signed up for night classes in 3D CAD using OnShape, which I can't use
at home with a cellular data limit of 10GB a month (no Cable). I
downloaded FreeCAD 1.1 which I think works off-line. Is anyone familiar
with one or both?

On Shape is free sorta. It is strictly cloud based, and your models are public on the free plan from what I have read.

FreeCAD is free, and it runs completely on your PC, but you may want to
be connected to download upgrades and modules that are specific to your application. Having an absolutely HUGE open source community there are
a lot of them.

I use ViaCAD 2D3DPro64. Its definitely not free, but it its not the
price of other high end CAD software, and its a permanent license. Not
a rental agreement like many others.

I've also heard good things about Plasticity, and may get more involved
with it since it has Linux compilations available. (also not free)
--
Bob La Londe
CNC Molds N Stuff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2