• 4130 vs 1020 - Racing Carts

    From Bob La Londe@none@none.com99 to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat Oct 18 13:32:09 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    Don't get to bogged down in the basics. We know most of it. 4130 is
    easier to weld than 4140, and maybe harder to heat treat. 1020 is easier
    yet to weld, but lower tensile strength.

    My son's engineering class (club?) is build a 4wd race cart for a big competition. He has done the structural calculations with what he
    considers a decent safety margin using 4130. Some years back I had a
    chat with a local marine shop owner (Keith) who was building race carts
    for his son at the local speedway for their 2wd youth cart racing class.
    He said they were using 1020 DOM because it flexed more in hard racing.

    Now there are some class differences. The cart my son's group is
    building is using a specific nominal 14hp motor and using a full 4x4
    drive train. The Keith's son was racing nominal 6.5hp Subaru Robin
    clones like the Predator 212.

    I'm not sure what my question is. I'm just trying to wrap my head around
    it as "not an engineer."
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff


    --
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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sat Oct 18 19:50:13 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10d0tg9$21llh$1@dont-email.me...

    Don't get to bogged down in the basics. We know most of it. 4130 is
    easier to weld than 4140, and maybe harder to heat treat. 1020 is easier
    yet to weld, but lower tensile strength.

    My son's engineering class (club?) is build a 4wd race cart for a big competition. He has done the structural calculations with what he
    considers a decent safety margin using 4130. Some years back I had a
    chat with a local marine shop owner (Keith) who was building race carts
    for his son at the local speedway for their 2wd youth cart racing class.
    He said they were using 1020 DOM because it flexed more in hard racing.

    Now there are some class differences. The cart my son's group is
    building is using a specific nominal 14hp motor and using a full 4x4
    drive train. The Keith's son was racing nominal 6.5hp Subaru Robin
    clones like the Predator 212.

    I'm not sure what my question is. I'm just trying to wrap my head around
    it as "not an engineer."
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff

    -----------------------------------------
    There are some strongly believed misunderstandings about the properties of steel, and physics in general.

    I think the choice depends on how they deform vs break in a crash. Below
    their yield points their bending resistance (Young's Modulus) and thus
    chassis stiffness is practically identical, like all steel, but 4130 has a higher yield point.

    https://classicmotorracingclub.nz/chassis-stiffness-and-tuning-how-much-is-enough/

    https://amesweb.info/Materials/Youngs-Modulus-of-Steel.aspx

    Likewise hardening steel doesn't make it stiffer, hardness lets it bend further before taking a permanent set. You can see this with two long bugle head screws held in a vise by the tips. Annealing one with a torch doesn't change how far it bends with equal moderate pressure on both..

    The suspension geometry's job is to keep the tire tread flat on the track while the body rolls in turns, and chassis flex can interfere. My understanding is that 1020 controls the limited deflection permissible as
    well as the same size and weight of 4130.

    The goal is to limit crash deceleration to what the driver can handle
    because race car frames became too strong and stiff, the car survived but
    the driver didn't. I don't remember the auto numbers, for aircraft Col. John Paul Stapp raised the limit of survival from an estimated 20g to a proven
    40g with proper restraint.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stapp

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sun Oct 19 06:55:32 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:10d0tg9$21llh$1@dont-email.me...

    Don't get to bogged down in the basics. We know most of it. 4130 is
    easier to weld than 4140, and maybe harder to heat treat. 1020 is easier
    yet to weld, but lower tensile strength.

    My son's engineering class (club?) is build a 4wd race cart for a big competition. He has done the structural calculations with what he
    considers a decent safety margin using 4130. Some years back I had a
    chat with a local marine shop owner (Keith) who was building race carts
    for his son at the local speedway for their 2wd youth cart racing class.
    He said they were using 1020 DOM because it flexed more in hard racing.

    Now there are some class differences. The cart my son's group is
    building is using a specific nominal 14hp motor and using a full 4x4
    drive train. The Keith's son was racing nominal 6.5hp Subaru Robin
    clones like the Predator 212.

    I'm not sure what my question is. I'm just trying to wrap my head around
    it as "not an engineer."
    --
    Bob La Londe
    CNC Molds N Stuff
    ---------------------------------

    The reviews for Carroll Smith's books on race car engineering suggest that Calculus is necessary to understand the basic design principles, though Tune to Win is helpful without it. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/engineer-to-win-motorbooks-workshop_carroll-smith/308112/item/5831395/?

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  • From Jim Wilkins@muratlanne@gmail.com to rec.crafts.metalworking on Sun Oct 19 17:29:25 2025
    From Newsgroup: rec.crafts.metalworking

    "Jim Wilkins" wrote in message news:10d194f$25lng$1@dont-email.me...

    I think the choice depends on how they deform vs break in a crash. ...

    The engineer who explained that to me wasn't talking about go karts.
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