https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense requirement, isn't it.
pH in Aptos
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense requirement, isn't it.
pH in Aptos
On 2/19/2026 9:49 PM, pH wrote:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples'
liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense
requirement, isn't it.
pH in Aptos
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >requirement, isn't it.
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples'
liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense
requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to
ride those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty
people? Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do
that going up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France
participants could do that continuously.
...the Pros really are not like us. They have power and
stamina. (to paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53 "
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >>> liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >>> requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
While I'm with you on the electric bicycle points, the Pros
really are not like us.
They have power and stamina. (to
paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53 "
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
And we regular cyclists can't sustain anything for 300km!
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 09:57:16 -0600 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >>>> liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession? >>>> Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >>>> requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
While I'm with you on the electric bicycle points, the Pros
really are not like us.
Of course they aren't. But your comparison is misleading, or at
least incomplete. In fact, the pros don't ride as hard as most
people, including inexpericed cyclists, seem to believe.
They have power and stamina. (to
paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53"
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
And we regular cyclists can't sustain anything for 300km!
Quoting from
<https://tempocyclist.com/2021/05/24/pro-cyclist-power-numbers/>
"Over the course of four hours, 175km and only 400m of elevation
gain, he averaged 42.9kph (26.7mph) with an average power output
of 164 watts."
164 watts is only enough for a meager speed of about 26 km/h,
when riding an ordinary MTB.
"Racing cyclists who ride in the middle of a large peloton use
only 5 to 10% of the energy they would otherwise need if riding
solo."
quoted from <https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/racing-cyclist-in-peloton-saves-more-energy-than-previously-thought>
"While zooming along at 50 km/h with the peloton, a rider feels
as if he or she is only driving at the lowly pace of 12.5 km/h rCo
more in line with the speed of a recreational cyclist on a gentle
leisurely ride."
Riding 45 km/h on an average Dutch style bicycle ("roadster")
would need more than 900 watts, or about half as much when riding
a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
An average cyclist who does leisure rides at a pace of about
15-20 km/h needs about 50 to 100 watts on a well maintained
roadster <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadster_(bicycle)>, or
25-50 watts on a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
25 km/h E-bikes similar to US class 1 e-bikes are limited to a
nominal power of 250 watts, in Europe. That's already more than
even what trained amateurs can sustain for a very long time.
Let's not forget that this is _additional_ power. Class 1
e-bikes are limited to 750 watts, in the US. That's enough for
climbing a 8 percent ramp with 20 mph, as long as the battery has
power. AFIK, there isn't any limit for battery capacity, neither
in the US nor in Europe.
In short, these vehicles, including class 1 ones aren't bicycles,
but motorcycles with engines that have both more power and more
endurance than most healthy middle-aged people have.
On 2/20/2026 4:18 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 09:57:16 -0600 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >>>>> liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession? >>>>> Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >>>>> requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
While I'm with you on the electric bicycle points, the Pros
really are not like us.
Of course they aren't. But your comparison is misleading, or at
least incomplete. In fact, the pros don't ride as hard as most
people, including inexpericed cyclists, seem to believe.
They have power and stamina. (to
paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53"
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
And we regular cyclists can't sustain anything for 300km!
Quoting from
<https://tempocyclist.com/2021/05/24/pro-cyclist-power-numbers/>
"Over the course of four hours, 175km and only 400m of elevation
gain, he averaged 42.9kph (26.7mph) with an average power output
of 164 watts."
164 watts is only enough for a meager speed of about 26 km/h,
when riding an ordinary MTB.
"Racing cyclists who ride in the middle of a large peloton use
only 5 to 10% of the energy they would otherwise need if riding
solo."
quoted from
<https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/racing-cyclist-in-peloton-saves-more-energy-than-previously-thought>
"While zooming along at 50 km/h with the peloton, a rider feels
as if he or she is only driving at the lowly pace of 12.5 km/h rCo
more in line with the speed of a recreational cyclist on a gentle
leisurely ride."
Riding 45 km/h on an average Dutch style bicycle ("roadster")
would need more than 900 watts, or about half as much when riding
a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
An average cyclist who does leisure rides at a pace of about
15-20 km/h needs about 50 to 100 watts on a well maintained
roadster <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadster_(bicycle)>, or
25-50 watts on a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
25 km/h E-bikes similar to US class 1 e-bikes are limited to a
nominal power of 250 watts, in Europe. That's already more than
even what trained amateurs can sustain for a very long time.
Let's not forget that this is _additional_ power. Class 1
e-bikes are limited to 750 watts, in the US. That's enough for
climbing a 8 percent ramp with 20 mph, as long as the battery has
power. AFIK, there isn't any limit for battery capacity, neither
in the US nor in Europe.
In short, these vehicles, including class 1 ones aren't bicycles,
but motorcycles with engines that have both more power and more
endurance than most healthy middle-aged people have.
Yes, I already agreed with you on electrics.
But not so much about rider power output. I can't recall
ever an omafeitsen daily commuter who changed that for a
race bike and took a weekend medal.
Yes race bikes are lighter. Yes peloton aerodynamics matter.
But there's still a huge gap in power and stamina from us
average riders to the Pros.
On 2/20/2026 4:18 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 09:57:16 -0600 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >>>>> liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession? >>>>> Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >>>>> requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
While I'm with you on the electric bicycle points, the Pros
really are not like us.
Of course they aren't. But your comparison is misleading, or at
least incomplete. In fact, the pros don't ride as hard as most
people, including inexpericed cyclists, seem to believe.
They have power and stamina. (to
paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53"
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
And we regular cyclists can't sustain anything for 300km!
Quoting from
<https://tempocyclist.com/2021/05/24/pro-cyclist-power-numbers/>
"Over the course of four hours, 175km and only 400m of elevation
gain, he averaged 42.9kph (26.7mph) with an average power output
of 164 watts."
164 watts is only enough for a meager speed of about 26 km/h,
when riding an ordinary MTB.
"Racing cyclists who ride in the middle of a large peloton use
only 5 to 10% of the energy they would otherwise need if riding
solo."
quoted from
<https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/racing-cyclist-in-peloton-saves-more-energy-than-previously-thought>
"While zooming along at 50 km/h with the peloton, a rider feels
as if he or she is only driving at the lowly pace of 12.5 km/h rCo
more in line with the speed of a recreational cyclist on a gentle
leisurely ride."
Riding 45 km/h on an average Dutch style bicycle ("roadster")
would need more than 900 watts, or about half as much when riding
a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
An average cyclist who does leisure rides at a pace of about
15-20 km/h needs about 50 to 100 watts on a well maintained
roadster <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadster_(bicycle)>, or
25-50 watts on a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
25 km/h E-bikes similar to US class 1 e-bikes are limited to a
nominal power of 250 watts, in Europe. That's already more than
even what trained amateurs can sustain for a very long time.
Let's not forget that this is _additional_ power. Class 1
e-bikes are limited to 750 watts, in the US. That's enough for
climbing a 8 percent ramp with 20 mph, as long as the battery has
power. AFIK, there isn't any limit for battery capacity, neither
in the US nor in Europe.
In short, these vehicles, including class 1 ones aren't bicycles,
but motorcycles with engines that have both more power and more
endurance than most healthy middle-aged people have.
Yes, I already agreed with you on electrics.
But not so much about rider power output. I can't recall
ever an omafeitsen daily commuter who changed that for a
race bike and took a weekend medal.
Yes race bikes are lighter.
Yes peloton aerodynamics matter.
But there's still a huge gap in power and stamina from us
average riders to the Pros.
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples' >liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession?
Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >requirement, isn't it.
pH in Aptos
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine aWhich do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
OK, let's posit vehicle titles, registration, plates, annual
tag fee, insurance requirement, operator license and
enforcement of the same traffic rules to which other
vehicles adhere? (e.g., brake lights, signal turns/ lane
changes, full and complete stop, etc)
I don't necessarily disagree but that's death to the crappy
cheap electric moped business.
OTOH good luck with enforcement of speed limits on
not-motor-vehicle paths and trails, for one example of
'ignored'.
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 17:57:41 -0600 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
On 2/20/2026 4:18 PM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 09:57:16 -0600 schrieb AMuzi
<am@yellowjersey.org>:
On 2/20/2026 9:47 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
Am Fri, 20 Feb 2026 03:49:20 -0000 (UTC) schrieb pH
<wNOSPAMp@gmail.org>:
On 2026-02-20, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
https://ktla.com/news/california/proposed-california-bill-seeks-to-require-license-plates-for-some-e-bikes/
Anytime I see a politician refer to his proposed restrictions on peoples'
liberties as "common sense".....well.
And it requires the rider to have proof of ownership in his possession? >>>>>> Oh? No loaning your bike out or borrowing your pal's? That's a nonsense >>>>>> requirement, isn't it.
Even Class 1 e-bikes, which are not even covered by this
regulation, are not bicycles, but motorcycles disguised as
bicycles. Users of Class 2 e-bikes do not even have to pretend to
pedal. These are obviously not bicycles and should not be treated
as such.
What percentage of people riding real bicycles are able to ride
those continuously with 20 mph (32 km/h)? One in twenty people?
Even less? Now how many of those would be able to do that going
up a 5 percent grade? Not even Tour de France participants could
do that continuously.
While in Europe our regulations wrt. e-bikes are far from
perfect, we got it right at least for those e-bikes that don't
require pedaling at all. Those e-bikes need a a license plate
which is essentially just a proof of having insurance covering
damages to other people or their properties. No registration
necessary, just pay for such a license plate from the insurance
of you choice and mount the plate.
While I'm with you on the electric bicycle points, the Pros
really are not like us.
Of course they aren't. But your comparison is misleading, or at
least incomplete. In fact, the pros don't ride as hard as most
people, including inexpericed cyclists, seem to believe.
They have power and stamina. (to
paraphrase F Scott Fitzgerald)
https://www.cyclistshub.com/milan-san-remo-statistics/
"290.7km route at 6:22:53"
average 45.288 km/h or 28.14 mph
And we regular cyclists can't sustain anything for 300km!
Quoting from
<https://tempocyclist.com/2021/05/24/pro-cyclist-power-numbers/>
"Over the course of four hours, 175km and only 400m of elevation
gain, he averaged 42.9kph (26.7mph) with an average power output
of 164 watts."
164 watts is only enough for a meager speed of about 26 km/h,
when riding an ordinary MTB.
"Racing cyclists who ride in the middle of a large peloton use
only 5 to 10% of the energy they would otherwise need if riding
solo."
quoted from
<https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/racing-cyclist-in-peloton-saves-more-energy-than-previously-thought>
"While zooming along at 50 km/h with the peloton, a rider feels
as if he or she is only driving at the lowly pace of 12.5 km/h rCo
more in line with the speed of a recreational cyclist on a gentle
leisurely ride."
Riding 45 km/h on an average Dutch style bicycle ("roadster")
would need more than 900 watts, or about half as much when riding
a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
An average cyclist who does leisure rides at a pace of about
15-20 km/h needs about 50 to 100 watts on a well maintained
roadster <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadster_(bicycle)>, or
25-50 watts on a race bike with hands on the drop bars.
25 km/h E-bikes similar to US class 1 e-bikes are limited to a
nominal power of 250 watts, in Europe. That's already more than
even what trained amateurs can sustain for a very long time.
Let's not forget that this is _additional_ power. Class 1
e-bikes are limited to 750 watts, in the US. That's enough for
climbing a 8 percent ramp with 20 mph, as long as the battery has
power. AFIK, there isn't any limit for battery capacity, neither
in the US nor in Europe.
In short, these vehicles, including class 1 ones aren't bicycles,
but motorcycles with engines that have both more power and more
endurance than most healthy middle-aged people have.
Yes, I already agreed with you on electrics.
But not so much about rider power output. I can't recall
ever an omafeitsen daily commuter who changed that for a
race bike and took a weekend medal.
Nobody claimed that, that's a red herring. What I wrote was "the
pros don't ride as hard as most people, including inexpericed
cyclists, seem to believe". I stand by my point.
People who don't know much about the technical details of
cycling, most people, that is, grossly overestimate the average
power actually used in a biycle race. Road races are a team
sport. Again, have a look at that graph <https://deingenieur.nl/_Resources/Persistent/e/5/d/f/e5df207c66defbc0bf3953a5fa68e63070465ead/1.jpg>
in <https://deingenieur.nl/artikelen/racing-cyclist-in-peloton-saves-more-energy-than-previously-thought>
The goal of a team is to give the most promising team member as
much slipstream as possible so that they can save their energy
for the final sprint. But you probably know that better than
me. :)
<https://rocketcyclist.com/slipstreaming-in-cycling/>
Yes race bikes are lighter.
Somewhat lighter than ordinary bikes, but that doesn't matter
that much. Ordinary bikes got lighter, too. On the other hand,
e-bikes are getting heavier all the time, mostly because there
is almost no regulatione and no weight limit, because these bikes
essentially are _not_ muscle powered. Having some pedals doesn't
mean that the rider has to deliver real power.
Yes peloton aerodynamics matter.
That's the point. Again, have a look at the graph linked above.
A Rider in a good spot in the peleton needs only ~5% of what a
solo rider has to deliver. But even two or three riders taking
turns to slipstream each other are already much faster than a
single rider.
But there's still a huge gap in power and stamina from us
average riders to the Pros.
Of course. But that gap is not nearly as large as a naive
cyclist comparing his average speed to the average speed in a
bicycle race might believe.
I'm not talking about amateur athletes who train with their
clubs, but about the general public who watch these races and
occasionally take their bike out of the garage to do a leisure
ride in the park.
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Today we have a great example of the bureaucratic approach
to actual problems:
https://nypost.com/2026/02/21/us-news/mamdani-blasted-for-requiring-5-forms-of-id-to-shovel-while-dsa-opposes-voter-id/
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Today we have a great example of the bureaucratic approach
to actual problems:
https://nypost.com/2026/02/21/us-news/mamdani-blasted-for-requiring-5-forms-of-id-to-shovel-while-dsa-opposes-voter-id/
And the connection to the topic at hand is .....?
bob prohaska
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
OK, let's posit vehicle titles, registration, plates, annual
tag fee, insurance requirement, operator license and
enforcement of the same traffic rules to which other
vehicles adhere? (e.g., brake lights, signal turns/ lane
changes, full and complete stop, etc)
I don't necessarily disagree but that's death to the crappy
cheap electric moped business.
OTOH good luck with enforcement of speed limits on
not-motor-vehicle paths and trails, for one example of
'ignored'.
ThatrCOs one reason that throttles are bad idea, in that if allowed, itrCOs difficult for enforcement in that can they tell or even prove its not the right class etc at the roadside or risk expounding it to discover its
legal.
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Today we have a great example of the bureaucratic approach
to actual problems:
https://nypost.com/2026/02/21/us-news/mamdani-blasted-for-requiring-5-forms-of-id-to-shovel-while-dsa-opposes-voter-id/
And the connection to the topic at hand is .....?
On 2/23/2026 12:58 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Today we have a great example of the bureaucratic approach
to actual problems:
https://nypost.com/2026/02/21/us-news/mamdani-blasted-for-requiring-5-forms-of-id-to-shovel-while-dsa-opposes-voter-id/
And the connection to the topic at hand is .....?
That Andrew can't help from bashing a socialist.
Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com> wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best. In the usual pattern,Can you suggest those "cures"? All that come to my mind
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
OK, let's posit vehicle titles, registration, plates, annual
tag fee, insurance requirement, operator license and
enforcement of the same traffic rules to which other
vehicles adhere? (e.g., brake lights, signal turns/ lane
changes, full and complete stop, etc)
I don't necessarily disagree but that's death to the crappy
cheap electric moped business.
OTOH good luck with enforcement of speed limits on
not-motor-vehicle paths and trails, for one example of
'ignored'.
ThatrCOs one reason that throttles are bad idea, in that if allowed, itrCOs >> difficult for enforcement in that can they tell or even prove its not the
right class etc at the roadside or risk expounding it to discover its
legal.
Details of how something works matters far less than the intent to which
it's used. Speed and weight limits are easier to test and enforce. Theyr're also much better gauges of potential harm to others. An "assist-only"
e-bike doing 30 mph has much more in common with a motor vehicle than with
a bicycle, especially if it's on an HPV path.
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
On 2/23/2026 12:58 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
On 2/21/2026 5:56 PM, bp@www.zefox.net wrote:
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
Which do you have in mind? I can think of several, but harm
Well, there are actual problems/issues but to imagine a
to other riders and bystanders seem the most obvious.
legislative cure is fanciful at best.-a In the usualCan you suggest those-a "cures"? All that come to my mind
pattern,
closely parallel those for motor vehicles.
whatever they do will either destroy the market or be
widely
ignored.
What are you anticipating? Motor vehicle regs certainly
haven't
destroyed the automobile business 8-)
Thanks for reading,
bob prohaska
Today we have a great example of the bureaucratic approach
to actual problems:
https://nypost.com/2026/02/21/us-news/mamdani-blasted-
for-requiring-5-forms-of-id-to-shovel-while-dsa-opposes-
voter-id/
And the connection to the topic at hand is .....?
That Andrew can't help from bashing a socialist.
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