On 02/03/26 09:30, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2026 23:23:17 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:
Just to clarify the timeline:
1549: First Portuguese Missionaries arrive. Many converts made.
~1597: Christianity brutally suppressed. A few crypto-Christians
remain underground until after the opening.
From roughly 1600 to 1853, Japan is 'closed'. The only foreign
mission was a small Dutch group on an island in Hiroshima harbor.
1871: Freedom of religion restored, many Christian missions
arrive.
DoesnrCOt it make you wonder, in a country where Buddhism and
Shintoism, and I think even animism and Confucianism, could coexist
peacefully for centuries, the moment Christianity appears on the
scene, the trouble starts?
Could it be because this was the first time the Japanese were
exposed to a religion with intolerance built deeply into its core
doctrines? Namely: rCLour god is the true god, all other gods are
falserCY?
That's part of it, I guess, but the Portuguese missionaries also tried
to interfere in domestic politics.
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:00:54 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 28/02/2026 17:23, Cryptoengineer wrote:
snip for brevity
Just to clarify the timeline:
1549: First Portuguese Missionaries arrive. Many converts made.
~1597: Christianity brutally suppressed. A few crypto-Christians remain
underground until after the opening.
From roughly 1600 to 1853, Japan is 'closed'. The only foreign mission
was a small Dutch group on an island in Hiroshima harbor.
OBSF: The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet. David Mitchell. 5 stars.
(Begins in 1799.)
Enjoyed it, but it was my least favourite Mitchell.
He seemed to be hedging his bets as to whether the villain had powers
or was just a lunatic (and whether the novel was SF or purely
historic).
We didn't get the definitive answer until (I think) Utopia Avenue.
On 3/1/26 15:33, Peter Moylan wrote:
On 02/03/26 09:30, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2026 23:23:17 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:
Just to clarify the timeline:
1549: First Portuguese Missionaries arrive. Many converts made.
~1597: Christianity brutally suppressed. A few crypto-Christians
remain underground until after the opening.
From roughly 1600 to 1853, Japan is 'closed'. The only foreign
mission was a small Dutch group on an island in Hiroshima harbor.
1871: Freedom of religion restored, many Christian missions
arrive.
DoesnrCOt it make you wonder, in a country where Buddhism and
Shintoism, and I think even animism and Confucianism, could coexist
peacefully for centuries, the moment Christianity appears on the
scene, the trouble starts?
Could it be because this was the first time the Japanese were
exposed to a religion with intolerance built deeply into its core
doctrines? Namely: rCLour god is the true god, all other gods are
falserCY?
That's part of it, I guess, but the Portuguese missionaries also tried
to interfere in domestic politics.
The Shogunate was the final authority in Japan.
The Pope was not going to be allowed to compete and
since the Daimyo aka Samurai Nobles were being converted
it was a bad deal for the Portuguese missionaries.
Also the Emperor of Japan was the leader of the Native Faith
thus if Christianity became a part of the nation his legitimacy
would be undermined.
So tread on a picture of Jesus and foreswear your new
faith or become a Martyr for it. Some were crucified and
a Christian Rebellion in the South of Japan was put down
with exteme prejudice. The Japanese were aware of
what the colonizing nations were doing to the East Asian
nations and they did not want it done to them.
On 01/03/2026 22:17, Jerry Brown wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:00:54 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 28/02/2026 17:23, Cryptoengineer wrote:
snip for brevity
Just to clarify the timeline:
1549: First Portuguese Missionaries arrive. Many converts made.
~1597: Christianity brutally suppressed. A few crypto-Christians remain >>>> underground until after the opening.
From roughly 1600 to 1853, Japan is 'closed'. The only foreign mission >>>> was a small Dutch group on an island in Hiroshima harbor.
OBSF: The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet. David Mitchell. 5 stars.
(Begins in 1799.)
Enjoyed it, but it was my least favourite Mitchell.
It is over a decade since I read it but I instantly remembered de Zoet's >voluntary service on that island when I read Crptoengineer's summary
above. The harshness and corruption are now my main memories so time for
a reread. To some Japanese, Japan of the 18th century was known as the
land of a Thousand Autumns and de Zoet is Dutch.
He seemed to be hedging his bets as to whether the villain had powers
or was just a lunatic (and whether the novel was SF or purely
historic).
But he has mostly done that, (hide the supernatural aspect). And that
makes it more plausible for me. de Zoet had no supernatural powers but
the monks who ran the Nunnery where babies, including that of his
Japanese lover, disappeared from, were reputed to have unnatural powers.
And you are right, I think, that it could be purely historical.
We didn't get the definitive answer until (I think) Utopia Avenue.
In Utopia Avenue, there was only a small reference to the Bone Clocks to
keep the hook imbedded.
All the characters in his stories are manipulated or exploited in
different ways by other forces especially chance but perhaps by some
aspect of the supernatural. As there are links between these aspects in >different novels, they do appear to be real.
On Tue, 3 Mar 2026 17:24:10 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 01/03/2026 22:17, Jerry Brown wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026 12:00:54 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 28/02/2026 17:23, Cryptoengineer wrote:
snip for brevity
Just to clarify the timeline:
1549: First Portuguese Missionaries arrive. Many converts made.
~1597: Christianity brutally suppressed. A few crypto-Christians remain >>>>> underground until after the opening.
From roughly 1600 to 1853, Japan is 'closed'. The only foreign mission >>>>> was a small Dutch group on an island in Hiroshima harbor.
OBSF: The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet. David Mitchell. 5 stars.
(Begins in 1799.)
Enjoyed it, but it was my least favourite Mitchell.
It is over a decade since I read it but I instantly remembered de Zoet's
voluntary service on that island when I read Crptoengineer's summary
above. The harshness and corruption are now my main memories so time for
a reread. To some Japanese, Japan of the 18th century was known as the
land of a Thousand Autumns and de Zoet is Dutch.
He seemed to be hedging his bets as to whether the villain had powers
or was just a lunatic (and whether the novel was SF or purely
historic).
But he has mostly done that, (hide the supernatural aspect). And that
makes it more plausible for me. de Zoet had no supernatural powers but
the monks who ran the Nunnery where babies, including that of his
Japanese lover, disappeared from, were reputed to have unnatural powers.
And you are right, I think, that it could be purely historical.
We didn't get the definitive answer until (I think) Utopia Avenue.
In Utopia Avenue, there was only a small reference to the Bone Clocks to
keep the hook imbedded.
Tried to find the exact passage in Utopia Avenue, gave up and took the
lazy path:
<https://mitchelluniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Lord_Abbot_Enomoto>
Lord Abbot Enomoto is the villain in David Mitchell's The Thousand
Autumns of Jacob de Zoet.
He was the abbot of an esoteric shinto order located at a monastery in
the Kirishima Mountains at Mount Shiranui. His order operated a harem
of women to maintain a supply of babies who were distilled by a psycho-decanter into what the order called tamashi-abura or Oil of
Souls. The monks were able to postpone death by consuming this
substance.
In Mitchell's 2020 novel, Utopia Avenue, it is revealed that upon his
death, Abbot Enomoto, a practitioner of psychosoterica, was able to
hide his soul within Jacob de Zoet's mind. Enomoto spent hundreds of
years biding his time and, once his strength was collected, he sought vengeance against Jasper de Zoet, a descendent of Jacob de Zoet.
Jasper came to know this evil presence as "Knock Knock," since he used
that sound to torture the young man.
All the characters in his stories are manipulated or exploited in
different ways by other forces especially chance but perhaps by some
aspect of the supernatural. As there are links between these aspects in
different novels, they do appear to be real.
Might do a complete Mitchell reread (this time in order) soon, since
nothing new seems to be forthcoming until 2114.
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