No doubt I'll remember this 30 seconds after posting, but
so far my brain is drawing a blank.
They're all on a spaceship with Heinlein's main character
in charge. Two of the passengers are first cousins (or
maybe even brother/sister) and... have the hots for each other.
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then
works out the actual math (at least as he figures it) and
regards to inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's
pretty small, and has them go for it.
Any recollections? Thanks
_Time Enough For Love_
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then works out
the actual math (at least as he figures it) and regards to
inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's pretty small, and has
them go for it.
In <mv4vf3FetaaU1@mid.individual.net> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) writes:
[snip]
_Time Enough For Love_
Thanks! The Wiki writeup pretty much matches my memory (except they
were even more closely related..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"
Also, I was contemplating the contrast between the Westermarck Effect
and Genetic Sexual Attraction; the one says that individuals brought
up together, whether related or not, tend not to be sexually attracted
to each other, yet the other says that individuals who are very
closely related (e.g. siblings) who are brought up separately *do*
often end up sexually attracted to each other.
Can you discern any coherent evolutionary pattern in any of that?
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:29:21 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:1. It's pay whine boldly offers, for $15/mo, "Far fewer asks for
In <mv4vf3FetaaU1@mid.individual.net> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) writes:
[snip]
_Time Enough For Love_
Thanks! The Wiki writeup pretty much matches my memory (except they
were even more closely related..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"
Coincidentally this was published by The Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/12/one-in-14-children-who- >die-in-england-have-closely-related-parents-study-finds
Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/3x44tnu7
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:07:57 +0000, danny burstein wrote:They were "gods". The commoners were not.
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then works out
the actual math (at least as he figures it) and regards to
inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's pretty small, and has
them go for it.
The Egyptian Royals had brother marrying sister, because royal blood
was considered too precious to dilute with that from commoners.
At least, this was true of the Ptolemaic Dynasty (the one with all the >Cleopatras). What would that kind of thing do to the gene pool after aEver wonder why they had all those dynasties lasting several
few generations straight?
Also, I was contemplating the contrast between the Westermarck EffectWhen I was in College, a Professor reported that, at one time, the
and Genetic Sexual Attraction; the one says that individuals brought
up together, whether related or not, tend not to be sexually attracted
to each other, yet the other says that individuals who are very
closely related (e.g. siblings) who are brought up separately *do*
often end up sexually attracted to each other.
Can you discern any coherent evolutionary pattern in any of that?Avoidance of inbreeding.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:29:21 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:
In <mv4vf3FetaaU1@mid.individual.net> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) writes:
[snip]
_Time Enough For Love_
Thanks! The Wiki writeup pretty much matches my memory (except they
were even more closely related..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"
Coincidentally this was published by The Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/12/one-in-14-children-who- die-in-england-have-closely-related-parents-study-finds
Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/3x44tnu7
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:07:57 +0000, danny burstein wrote:
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then works out
the actual math (at least as he figures it) and regards to
inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's pretty small, and has
them go for it.
The Egyptian Royals had brother marrying sister, because royal blood
was considered too precious to dilute with that from commoners.
At least, this was true of the Ptolemaic Dynasty (the one with all the Cleopatras). What would that kind of thing do to the gene pool after a
few generations straight?
On 2/12/2026 12:51 AM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:07:57 +0000, danny burstein wrote:
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then works out
the actual math (at least as he figures it) and regards to
inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's pretty small, and
has them go for it.
The Egyptian Royals had brother marrying sister, because royal
blood was considered too precious to dilute with that from
commoners.
At least, this was true of the Ptolemaic Dynasty (the one with all
the Cleopatras). What would that kind of thing do to the gene pool
after a few generations straight?
Much earlier, both Akhenaten and Tutankhamen show genetic issues due
to inbreeding.
Verily, in article <10mjpp7$17fp9$1@dont-email.me>, did ldo@nz.invalid deliver unto us this message:
We are programmed to bond with people like ourselves --members of
Also, I was contemplating the contrast between the Westermarck
Effect and Genetic Sexual Attraction; the one says that individuals
brought up together, whether related or not, tend not to be
sexually attracted to each other, yet the other says that
individuals who are very closely related (e.g. siblings) who are
brought up separately *do* often end up sexually attracted to each
other.
Can you discern any coherent evolutionary pattern in any of that?
the same tribe, with the same assumptions and customs and habits --
but also programmed to avoid members of the same immediate sib, to
increase genetic mixing.
Most of us don't ever meet long-lost relatives, but many of us marry
people who resemble our parents.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:13:23 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 2/12/2026 12:51 AM, Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:07:57 +0000, danny burstein wrote:
Heinlein's character is initially disapproving, but then works out
the actual math (at least as he figures it) and regards to
inbreeding of genetic issues, determines it's pretty small, and
has them go for it.
The Egyptian Royals had brother marrying sister, because royal
blood was considered too precious to dilute with that from
commoners.
At least, this was true of the Ptolemaic Dynasty (the one with all
the Cleopatras). What would that kind of thing do to the gene pool
after a few generations straight?
Much earlier, both Akhenaten and Tutankhamen show genetic issues due
to inbreeding.
Just those two? Because they were part of ancient EgyptrCOs brief fling
with monotheism. Coincidence?
Oh, and another SF-relevant reference: Theodore SturgeonrCOs short story rCLIf All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?rCY,
which I read in one of Harlan EllisonrCOs rCLDangerous VisionsrCY collections.
On 2/12/2026 3:49 AM, Charles Packer wrote:The article says this.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:29:21 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:
In <mv4vf3FetaaU1@mid.individual.net> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) writes:
[snip]
_Time Enough For Love_
Thanks! The Wiki writeup pretty much matches my memory (except they
were even more closely related..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"
Coincidentally this was published by The Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/12/one-in-14-children-who-
die-in-england-have-closely-related-parents-study-finds
Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/3x44tnu7
In the UK, by far the highest rates of genetic diseases are among
children of immigrants from Pakistan, where over 60% of marriages
are consanguineous. Cousin marriages are common in Muslim countries.
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, itsExcept, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia and
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
On 2/13/2026 11:34 AM, Paul S Person wrote:<snippo>
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/12/2026 3:49 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
OK, although at the top it statesCoincidentally this was published by The Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/12/one-in-14-children-who- >>>> die-in-england-have-closely-related-parents-study-finds
Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/3x44tnu7
In the UK, by far the highest rates of genetic diseases are among
children of immigrants from Pakistan, where over 60% of marriages
are consanguineous. Cousin marriages are common in Muslim countries.
The article says this.
But does that mean that we /know/ this? Is the source, perchance, a
wee bit biased here?
Will you accept Wikipedia? >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East
On 2/13/2026 11:34 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia and
the Habsburg chin are notorious examples of the result.
The notion of an elite above the law is very old, and still with us.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, Cryptoengineer
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia
the Habsburg chin are notorious examples of the result.
On 2/13/2026 11:34 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2/12/2026 3:49 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 03:29:21 -0000 (UTC), danny burstein wrote:
In <mv4vf3FetaaU1@mid.individual.net> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan >>>>> <tednolan>) writes:
[snip]
_Time Enough For Love_
Thanks!-a The Wiki writeup pretty much matches my memory (except they >>>>> were even more closely related..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Enough_for_Love
"The Tale of the Twins Who Weren't"
Coincidentally this was published by The Guardian yesterday:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2026/feb/12/one-in-14-children-who- >>>> die-in-england-have-closely-related-parents-study-finds
Shortened:
https://tinyurl.com/3x44tnu7
In the UK, by far the highest rates of genetic diseases are among
children of immigrants from Pakistan, where over 60% of marriages
are consanguineous. Cousin marriages are common in Muslim countries.
The article says this.
But does that mean that we /know/ this? Is the source, perchance, a
wee bit biased here?
Will you accept Wikipedia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia and
the Habsburg chin are notorious examples of the result.
The notion of an elite above the law is very old, and still with us.
pt
Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, Cryptoengineer
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia
Somewhere in her family tree, one of Victoria's ancestors, or Victoria herself, had a mutation on her X chromosome which led to the most famous cases of royal Hemophilia.-a It was probably Victoria herself or her
mother, but it is just possible that it existed earlier and was never
passed to a male child.-a Unlikely but possible.
Queen Victoria had no siblings, but she passed her defective X
chromosome to three of her children.-a As the elder sons were healthy it
did not become clear for some time that she carried the disease.
Naturally the royalty of Europe were eager to marry into the royal
family of what was then the world's dominant power.-a Some did this
before the disease was suspected, others took a chance, sometimes on
dubious medical advice (carriers generally bruise more easily than non- carriers, and some experts were overconfident of their ability to use
this to detect a carrier).
Poor Leopold, Alexei and the others were not victims of their ancestor's martial practices. Just of bad luck and sometimes, bad judgment.
On Sat, 14 Feb 2026 08:37:09 -0500, Cryptoengineer wrote:Actually, they were mostly considered to be gods. You do not mix the
On 2/13/2026 11:34 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia and
the Habsburg chin are notorious examples of the result.
The notion of an elite above the law is very old, and still with us.
ItAs not clear why such a thing would be considered some kind of
special privilege, where the usual law didnAt apply. More likely it
would be seen as an obligation, to avoid contaminating the royal
bloodline with commoner genes.
We are programmed to bond with people like ourselves --members of the
same tribe, with the same assumptions and customs and habits -- but also >programmed to avoid members of the same immediate sib, to increase
genetic mixing.
Most of us don't ever meet long-lost relatives, but many of us marry
people who resemble our parents.
4. The ethnic analysis, OTOH, might indeed be worth following up on
when allocating resources -- allocate them to mininize consanguineous >marriages, that is. Specially-trained nurses are all very well, but >preventing the problem to begin with (using persuasion, with an
investigation of the cultural background, not force) is a better idea.
In the UK, by far the highest rates of genetic diseases are among
children of immigrants from Pakistan, where over 60% of marriages
are consanguineous. Cousin marriages are common in Muslim countries.
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 08:19:16 -0500, The True Melissa <thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:
We are programmed to bond with people like ourselves --members of the
same tribe, with the same assumptions and customs and habits -- but also >programmed to avoid members of the same immediate sib, to increase
genetic mixing.
Most of us don't ever meet long-lost relatives, but many of us marry >people who resemble our parents.
I have pictures of my parents and grandparents (and my wife's) in the
hallway between kitchen and living room so see them all the time and
my daughter does resemble my mother; similarly I have a picture of my great-grandfather (happens to be in WW1 naval uniform) who the details
of his face look nothing like mine but the overall shape of face is
very close.
I wouldn't say my wife looked at all like my parents (but then her
family and mine grew up 1500 miles apart which is a big deal when
we're discussing Europe)
And of course my son looks nothing at all like his wife (hardly
surprising since her biological father was Vietnamese)
So perhaps you're right at the 10000' level but up close?
I read one article suggesting strongly that the blood tests that used to
be required in many states before issuance of a marriage licence was not
so much about minimizing consanguineous marriages but rather to avoid marriages where one or both partners had an active case of one or
another venereal disease and if positive to hustle them off to treatment "muyo pronto" (which did not of course prevent sexual contact outside marriage but to give people information they didn't already have)
I have pictures of my parents and grandparents (and my wife's) in
the hallway between kitchen and living room so see them all the time
and my daughter does resemble my mother ...
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 08:42:22 -0800, Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
4. The ethnic analysis, OTOH, might indeed be worth following up on
when allocating resources -- allocate them to mininize consanguineous
marriages, that is. Specially-trained nurses are all very well, but
preventing the problem to begin with (using persuasion, with an
investigation of the cultural background, not force) is a better idea.
I read one article suggesting strongly that the blood tests that used
to be required in many states before issuance of a marriage licence
was not so much about minimizing consanguineous marriages but rather
to avoid marriages where one or both partners had an active case of
one or another venereal disease and if positive to hustle them off to treatment "muyo pronto" (which did not of course prevent sexual
contact outside marriage but to give people information they didn't
already have)
Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 2/14/2026 4:13 PM, William Hyde wrote:
Paul S Person wrote:My father was a hemophiliac from this matriarchal carrier type.-a (It
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, Cryptoengineer
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
Except, of course, for the nobility and the royalty. Hemophilia
Somewhere in her family tree, one of Victoria's ancestors, or
Victoria herself, had a mutation on her X chromosome which led to the
most famous cases of royal Hemophilia.-a It was probably Victoria
herself or her mother, but it is just possible that it existed
earlier and was never passed to a male child.-a Unlikely but possible.
Queen Victoria had no siblings, but she passed her defective X
chromosome to three of her children.-a As the elder sons were healthy
it did not become clear for some time that she carried the disease.
Naturally the royalty of Europe were eager to marry into the royal
family of what was then the world's dominant power.-a Some did this
before the disease was suspected, others took a chance, sometimes on
dubious medical advice (carriers generally bruise more easily than
non- carriers, and some experts were overconfident of their ability
to use this to detect a carrier).
Poor Leopold, Alexei and the others were not victims of their
ancestor's martial practices. Just of bad luck and sometimes, bad
judgment.
was a factor in his death in his 60's.)-a Female children do not have
hemophilia from this but pass it down.-a Male children do not pass it
down but have hemophilia.
Male sufferers cannot pass hemophilia onto their sons, as the son's x chromosome must come from the mother.-a On the other hand their daughters are always carriers (unless they suffer from Turner Syndrome, I suppose).
When I got married nearly 40 years ago, the blood test I had to take
was explicitly for syphilis, and it had been implemented decades
earlier.
There was no coordination between the tests for me and my fiance,
so testing for consanguinity was out.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 15:09:16 -0500, CryptoengineerIsn't it funny how it's always "specific regions" and never "our
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
In the UK, by far the highest rates of genetic diseases are among
children of immigrants from Pakistan, where over 60% of marriages
are consanguineous. Cousin marriages are common in Muslim countries.
While I have a lot of issues with the Catholic church, its
extreme takes on how close a relative could marry (7 degrees of
separation) had the good effect of avoiding this inbreeding,
and also flattening society by destroying the 'hereditary clan'
or 'tribal' layer of social organization, and encouraging far
flung social connections.
I've watched numerous Youtubes that make the same point about Pakistan
but make the point that that is not the whole country but specific
regions (some of which send numerous people - usually about 80% male -
to Britain). They also say that that's true of the Pakistani rape
gangs in Britain where while they prey on (often underage) English
girls and pass them around freely within their sub-community with the >exception of a few Sikh victims, don't prey on anyone except English
victims.
On Thu, 12 Feb 2026 08:19:16 -0500, The True Melissa ><thetruemelissa@gmail.com> wrote:When I have read examples of this in novels, it usually /is/ at the
We are programmed to bond with people like ourselves --members of theI have pictures of my parents and grandparents (and my wife's) in the
same tribe, with the same assumptions and customs and habits -- but also >>programmed to avoid members of the same immediate sib, to increase
genetic mixing.
Most of us don't ever meet long-lost relatives, but many of us marry >>people who resemble our parents.
hallway between kitchen and living room so see them all the time and
my daughter does resemble my mother; similarly I have a picture of my >great-grandfather (happens to be in WW1 naval uniform) who the details
of his face look nothing like mine but the overall shape of face is
very close.
I wouldn't say my wife looked at all like my parents (but then her
family and mine grew up 1500 miles apart which is a big deal when
we're discussing Europe)
And of course my son looks nothing at all like his wife (hardly
surprising since her biological father was Vietnamese)
So perhaps you're right at the 10000' level but up close?
There are a lot of tests that I'd like to see someone take before marriage, for example assuring that one is not about to marry an ax murderer. But these are not likely to be performed.
Male sufferers cannot pass hemophilia onto their sons, as the son's
x chromosome must come from the mother. On the other hand their
daughters are always carriers (unless they suffer from Turner
Syndrome, I suppose).
On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:20:05 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
There are a lot of tests that I'd like to see someone take before marriage, >> for example assuring that one is not about to marry an ax murderer. But
these are not likely to be performed.
Questionnaire item "Have you murdered any axes lately?"
On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 21:25:52 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence DrCOOliveiro wrote:
On Mon, 16 Feb 2026 10:20:05 -0500 (EST), Scott Dorsey wrote:
There are a lot of tests that I'd like to see someone take before
marriage, for example assuring that one is not about to marry an
ax murderer. But these are not likely to be performed.
Questionnaire item "Have you murdered any axes lately?"
My ex's sister murdered a beautiful santoku knife over the holidays.
The edge is totally rolled and I am not sure if it can even be
reground.
There is only one functional gene on the human Y-chromosome, which is
why itrCOs so tiny.
On Sun, 15 Feb 2026 15:52:31 -0500, William Hyde wrote:
Male sufferers cannot pass hemophilia onto their sons, as the son's
x chromosome must come from the mother. On the other hand their
daughters are always carriers (unless they suffer from Turner
Syndrome, I suppose).
There is only one functional gene on the human Y-chromosome, which is
why itrCOs so tiny.
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