From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

THE MT VOID
12/12/25 -- Vol. 44, No. 24, Whole Number 2410

Editor: Evelyn Leeper, evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com
All material is the opinion of the author and is copyrighted by
the author unless otherwise noted.
All comments sent or posted will be assumed authorized for
inclusion unless otherwise noted.

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Topics:
Riddle
Mini Reviews, Part 30 (IN SEARCH OF TOMORROW, FRANKENSTEIN
(2025), HIDALGO) (film reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper)
Pronouns (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)
NASA's Asteroid Bennu Samples (comments by Greg Frederick)
Amusing Book-Lovers' Video (pointer from Kate Pott)
Circumnavigating the Globe (letters of comment
by Gary McGath, Keith F. Lynch, Peter Trei,
and Hal Heydt)
This Week's Reading (bookshops, Philcon, PRIDE AND
PREJUDICE, SENSE AND SENSIBILITY) (book comments
by Evelyn C. Leeper)

===================================================================

TOPIC: Riddle

What do Laos, Vietnam, Israel, Croatia, and possibly the United
States have in common?

[If no one gets it, another hint next week.]

[-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Mini Reviews, Part 30 (film reviews by Evelyn C. Leeper)

IN SEARCH OF TOMORROW (2022): IN SEARCH OF TOMORROW is a look at
the science fiction films of the 1980s--all the science fiction
films of the 1980s. Okay, that may be an exaggeration, but not
much of one, and it is the reason that this documentary is over
five hours long. (And I watched it on Tubi, where the commercials
added another hour and fifteen minutes.

In addition to interviews about individual films with actors,
directors, writers, crew, reviewers, and other people connected to
the science fiction film scene, there are also thematic segments
which talk about special effects, music, and other specific
aspects of the films.

One unsettling aspect is how old some of the actors look now; if
they didn't label them on screen, you might never figure out who
they are. You expect this of those who were child actors forty
years ago, but for those people who were adults then, such as
Nancy Allen, or Dennis Quaid, or Craig Miller, it is a bit of a
shock. (After all, I haven't changed much since then, right?)

One nice feature is that when they show you a film clip other than
a specific film being discussed, they give you a small caption at
the bottom left that tells you what film it is, and they caption
the actors and others throughout the film. (Too many documentaries
tell you who the person is the first time they are on screen, and
then never again.)

Obviously, just as WOODLANDS DARK AND DAYS BEWITCHED is required
viewing for fans of folk horror films, IN SEARCH OF TOMORROW is
required viewing for fans of 1980s science fiction films. It is
available free on Tubi, but Tubi does add 25% to the viewing time
with its ads.

Released theatrically 10 March 2022; currently streaming on Tubi.

Film Credits:
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11341742/reference>

What others are saying: <https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/in_search_of_tomorrow>

FRANKENSTEIN (2025): This is the latest in the long line of
adaptations of Mary Shelley's FRANKENSTEIN. It starts (as few of
them do) with the Creature chasing Victor over the ice in the
Arctic, and Victor telling his story to a ship's captain, just as
Shelley described.

From there, though, writer/director Guillermo del Toro changes the
story considerably. Victor's career, the introduction of
Harlander, the roles of Elizabeth and William, ... all of these
are changed.

A few random observations:

The first image of the tower and the light is reminiscent of
images in THE NINTH GATE.

How does the Creature learn to read? There is no way for the blind
man to teach him Or for that matter, for him to teach his
granddaughter).

The Creature is very much a Christ figure here, first constructed
on a cross as if crucified, and later not just driven from the old
man's hut, but killed and then "born again", coming back to life
on his own.

Jacob Elordi is 6'5" tall, and Oscar Isaac is 5'8". This makes
showing the giant size of the Creature easier in scenes of just
the two of them, though ultimately I expect some special effects
were used as well.

Released streaming 07 November 2025; currently streaming on
Netflix.

Film Credits:
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1312221/reference>

What others are saying:
<https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/frankenstein_2025>


HIDALGO (2004): HIDALGO is a film of doubtful historical accuracy,
though largely based on Frank Hopkins's own accounts. But it is
also based on David Lean's LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, including having
Omar Sharif star as the sheikh, having someone sitting watching
over the desert waiting for riders, having many high-speed scenes
(of horses rather than camels, and racing rather than a cavalry
charge), having the competitors encounter quicksand, and having
one of those races end at the sea. There is also a bit of DANCES
WITH WOLVES.

The plot is complicated by there being a three-way conflict,
rather than just two sides, and a lot of the scenes seem contrived
and rushed. For example, someone tells him about locusts as a
"gift from God" and later there is a swarm of them, and after it
passes, he eats some and feeds some to his horse. The swarm and
eating takes less than two minutes screen time; one wonders why it
is included at all.

Released theatrically 05 March 2004.

Film Credits:
<https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317648/reference>

What others are saying:
<https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/hidalgo>


[-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Pronouns (comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

I've been having problems with pronouns lately. No, not the
third-person pronouns everyone talks about, but first-person
pronouns.

For example, I want to say that Mark and I went to Second Time
Books for many years and I still go there. Saying "I have gone to
Second Time Books for many years" makes it sound as though it was
just me, yet "Mark and I have gone to Second Time Books for many
years" sounds like he is still going. So I'm stuck with the rather awkward-sounding "Mark and I went to Second Time Books for many
years and I still go there."

And of course, I still keep referring to "our house", "our books",
and "our DVDs", although somehow it's now "my car". Some things
just seem like they're still both of ours. In particular, I think
of our money as, well "our" money. (I know the government has a
different theory.)

I suspect this is not uncommon, just as when I read something
interesting, I find myself thinking, "I have to show this to
Mark." (Someone said that five years after their mother died, they
found themselves halfway through dialing her old number to tell
her something they had read.

And that last paragraph shows where I stand on third-person
pronouns. I didn't even think twice about typing "they" and
"their". In this, I am a Janeite.

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar. On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

[-ecl]

===================================================================

TOPIC: NASA's Asteroid Bennu Samples (comments by Greg Frederick)

Pristine samples of the asteroid Bennu was delivered to Earth by
NASArCOs OSIRIS-REx spacecraft which visited the asteroid a few
years ago. It touched down briefly with a vacuum device to scoop
up some material from Bennu. An amazing amount of material was
gathered. All five nucleobases used to construct both DNA and RNA,
along with phosphates, have been found in the Bennu samples
brought to Earth by OSIRIS-REx. [Earth] life uses twenty amino
acids to create the proteins we need. They found thirteen of them
on Bennu. They also found dust from ancient supernova stellar
explosions on Bennu. The following short You Tube video explains a
complete summary of the findings from the Bennu samples:

<https://www.youtube.com/shorts/stbcn0QB6C0>

[-gf]

===================================================================

TOPIC: Amusing Book-Lovers' Video (pointer from Kate Pott)

<https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1aFKV4yVkV/>

===================================================================

TOPIC: Circumnavigating the Globe (letters of comment by Gary
McGath, Keith F. Lynch, Peter Trei, and Hal Heydt)

In response to Evelyn's comments on circumnavigating the globe in
the 12/05/25 issue of the MT VOID, Gary McGath writes:

[Evelyn wrote,] "Magellan was not the first to circumnavigate the
globe, nor was Sebastian Elcano. That was Enrique of Malacca."
[-ecl]

The Wikipedia article says this is open to dispute, and the
explanation of how he might have been is confusing. Magellan, of
course, died before completing the trip. It seems to me that the
first to circumnavigate Earth would be an N-way tie among the
survivors of the expedition. [-gmg]

Keith F. Lynch responds with further details on Evelyn's statement:

It's not clear where Enrique was originally from, but it's
undisputed that he discovered he could speak the local language in
the Philippines. So he had almost certainly circled the Earth.
And done so before the survivors of the expedition made it back to
Europe. [-kfl]

Peter Trei argues:

It's possible, but not proven.

He was enslaved in Malacca by Magellan on an earlier voyage east
in 1511. He was on Magellan's later circumnavigation 1519-1522. He
could speak Malay. He was understood in Cebu, but Malay was a
common trade language in the area.

He left the expedition at Cebu. Cebu is about 20 degrees, or 2500
km NE of Malacca, which Mindanao is about 100 km south of Cebu.

So the question is: Was he actually from the Philippines, and
learned Malay later, settling in Malacca, or was he Malay from
Malacca? If the former case, he almost certainly circumnavigated.
If the latter, he still had quite a long way to go, but not an
impossible distance, and we just don't know if he did it. [-pt]

And Hal Heydt responds to Gary's claim of an N-way tie:

As I recall reading, if one claims the Magellan expedition as the
first circumnavigation, the honors as "leader" for the whole trip
would go to his First Mate.

On the other hand, I don't know if anyone disputes Joshua Slocum
as being first to do a solo circumnavigation. [-hh]

===================================================================

TOPIC: This Week's Reading (book comments by Evelyn C. Leeper)

I have been reading, but Philcon weekend has been "one step
forward, twenty steps back" in terms of clearing my "to-read"
shelf, not to mention that the acquisition of another ten Great
Courses is wreaking havoc with my "to-watch" list.

Most of my Second Time Books purchases (other than the Great
Courses) were books about ancient Rome, with titles such as PUBLIC
SPECTACLES IN ROME AND LATE ANTIQUE PALESTINE, and EMOTION,
RESTRAINT, AND COMMUNITY IN ANCIENT ROME. (Emma Southon's ROME OF
ONE'S OWN--THE FORGOTTEN WOEMN OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE may be a little
less dry than these.)

Then came Philcon, which will be reported on in due course and
much length. The overview is that I attended as an ordinary
attendee, not as a program participant, and it was much more
relaxing. I also decided I would not try to attend four panels in
a row. And I managed to get rid of a lot of books and magazines on
the freebie table--they had been accumulating for several years,

But I also picked up some freebie stuff, including C. S. Lewis's
WHILE WE HAVE FACES, Simon Winchester's THE PROFESSOR AND THE
MADMAN, and three graphic novels based on Ayn Ran's work: RED
PAWN, ANTHEM (a science fiction work), and TOP SECRET (based on an
unproduced script about Robert Oppenheimer and the Bomb).

After Philcon we went to Baldwin's Book Barn in West Chester,
Pennsylvania, where I got another three books: JESUS AT THE
MOVIES, Tom Holland's RUBICON, and Sir John Mandeville's BOOK OF
MARVELS AND TRAVELS. Then home, and on Monday up to Massachusetts,
with stops at Book Moon (nothing for me) and Gray Matter Books
(HOW LANGUAGE WORKS, George Gamow's THIRTY YEARS THAT SHOOK
PHYSICS, and a biography of Julian the Apostate). The Gamow is the
perfect adjunct to the panel on "100 Years of Quantum Mechanics!"

I did manage to finish off several books I was partway through:
THE ANGLO-SAXON AGE--A VERY SHORT INTRODUCTION, TIME IN HISTORY,
and MADE TO ORDER. I also wanted to read PRIDE AND PREJUDICE.
because I listened to the "classical Stuff You Should Know"
podcast about it while I was stuck in several traffic jams
returning from Massachusetts. (I also listened to two on logical
fallacies, two on the poetic Edda, the House of Atreus, and "What
Is Classical?".) And I read George Gamow's MR. TOMPKINS IN
PAPERBACK.

I will add some comments about PRIDE AND PREJUDICE (and SENSE AND
SENSIBILITY) here, since they occurred to me during the podcast
and while reading the book. Everyone seems to talk about Darcy
being prideful and Elizabeth being prejudiced (against him), but
as I listened to the podcast, I realized that it applied the words
"pride" and "proud" as much to her: she was prideful of her
(supposed) ability to judge people quickly and correctly, for
example. And Darcy was clearly prejudiced against anyone not of
his class. So in fact, each of the two terms apply to both of them.

There is also a confusion of the words "sense" and "sensibility"
in another of Austen's titles. Modern readers invariably apply the
word "sense" (meaning pertaining to the senses) to Marianne and
"sensibility" to Elinor. Apparently, however, the words as used in
Austen's time meant that the associations were reversed: Elinor
has the sense, and Marianne the sensibility (meaning relying on
her emotions, or perhaps "sensitivity").

For example, of the death of Henry Dashwood, Austen writes,
"Elinor saw, with concern, the excess of her sisterrCOs sensibility;
but by Mrs. Dashwood it was valued and cherished. They encouraged
each other now in the violence of their affliction."

Marianne complains of Colonel Brandon, "But it would have broke
*my* heart, had I loved him, to hear him read with so little
sensibility."

Austen writes, "Elinor had not needed this to be assured of the
injustice to which her sister was often led in her opinion of
others, by the irritable refinement of her own mind, and the too
great importance placed by her on the delicacies of a strong
sensibility."

Clearly, Marianne is associated with sensibility, so sense must
refer to Elinor (as in having good sense).

And indeed, if one digs around, one finds that "sensibility" did
have this different meaning back then. <https://femalescriblerian.com/2023/07/04/ making-sense-and-sensibility-the-truth-behind-the-title/> discusses
this; it is by no means the only place I have read this, but this
seems to explain it the best.

It's convenient, however, that with today's meanings the title
*still* makes sense [no pun intended!], though completely reversed
from its original intent.

At least the rest of Austen's titles have no ambiguities. [-ecl]

===================================================================

Evelyn C. Leeper
evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com


He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent
hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people,
and eat out their substance. ... He has kept among us,
in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent
of our legislatures. ... He has affected to render the
Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
... For protecting [armed troops] ... from punishment
for any Murders which they should commit on the
Inhabitants of these States: ... For cutting off our
Trade with all parts of the world: ... For imposing
Taxes on us without our Consent: For depriving us in
many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: ... For
transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended
offences: ... He has excited domestic insurrections
amongst us ...
--Thomas Jefferson
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <10hmhv6$12ff7$1@dont-email.me>,
Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been having problems with pronouns lately. No, not the
third-person pronouns everyone talks about, but first-person
pronouns.

For example, I want to say that Mark and I went to Second Time
Books for many years and I still go there. Saying "I have gone to
Second Time Books for many years" makes it sound as though it was
just me, yet "Mark and I have gone to Second Time Books for many
years" sounds like he is still going. So I'm stuck with the rather >awkward-sounding "Mark and I went to Second Time Books for many
years and I still go there."

[Hal Heydt]
I suspect this problem may be common where there was a very long
association between two people and one of them has died.
Parrticulary with a long-married couple. I have similar issues
with respect to Dorothy. And why not? We were married for 51
years, which is still effectively 2/3 of my life.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In Message-ID:<10hmhv6$12ff7$1@dont-email.me>,
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent
hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people,
and eat out their substance.

<snip>

--Thomas Jefferson

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary
for the public good. ... He has endeavoured to prevent the population
of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for
Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage
their migrations hither ...
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

begin fnord
"Evelyn C. Leeper" <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> writes:

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar. On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

Similar to the would-be English Academy members who disparage the
passive voice while demonstrating by clear example that they have no
idea what it is - and often using it themselves.
--
Steve Coltrin spcoltri@omcl.org
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <10hmhv6$12ff7$1@dont-email.me>,
evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) wrote:

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar. On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

Incidentally, I was taught at school back in the sixties this was
perfectly OK when referring to a person of an unknown gender. I think
Ben Yagoda in his Not-one-off Britishisms blog call this epicene pronouns
and they are much more common in British English.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In Message-ID:<memo.20251215175122.12160A@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>, prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

In article <10hmhv6$12ff7$1@dont-email.me>,
evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) wrote:

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar. On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

Incidentally, I was taught at school back in the sixties this was
perfectly OK when referring to a person of an unknown gender. I think
Ben Yagoda in his Not-one-off Britishisms blog call this epicene pronouns
and they are much more common in British English.

I don't know where I read this, but James Redekop (whoever that is)
said, 'And before anyone complains about singular "they", just
remember: it's older than singular "you".'
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

On 12/14/25 9:35 AM, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

And that last paragraph shows where I stand on third-person
pronouns. I didn't even think twice about typing "they" and
"their". In this, I am a Janeite.

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar.-a On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

I sometimes use "they" when referring to an indefinite individual.
However, I don't think a person should declare oneself a committee.

In the dystopia of Ayn Rand's _Anthem_, plural pronouns are used
exclusively, and using a first person singular pronoun is a capital
crime. Most people don't know such pronouns ever existed.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <8931kkh1dg26km34egs7n85jqjp04kbni8@4ax.com>, someone.else@example.com.invalid (Someone Else) wrote:

I don't know where I read this, but James Redekop (whoever that is)
said, 'And before anyone complains about singular "they", just
remember: it's older than singular "you".'

Good point!

The earliest citation for singular they in the OED is 15th century, I
recall.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <10hrir7$2nqai$1@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:

On 12/14/25 9:35 AM, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

And that last paragraph shows where I stand on third-person
pronouns. I didn't even think twice about typing "they" and
"their". In this, I am a Janeite.

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar.-a On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

I sometimes use "they" when referring to an indefinite individual.
However, I don't think a person should declare oneself a committee.

In the dystopia of Ayn Rand's _Anthem_, plural pronouns are used >exclusively, and using a first person singular pronoun is a capital
crime. Most people don't know such pronouns ever existed.

[Hal Heydt]
In Graydon SAuders _Commonweal_ series, "they"/"them" is used for
persons who are not intimate partners.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

On 12/16/2025 3:07 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

In article <10hrir7$2nqai$1@dont-email.me>,
Gary McGath <garym@mcgath.com> wrote:

On 12/14/25 9:35 AM, Evelyn C. Leeper wrote:

And that last paragraph shows where I stand on third-person
pronouns. I didn't even think twice about typing "they" and
"their". In this, I am a Janeite.

[I wish I could find the comment someone left on a pronoun article
declaring emphatically that people shouldn't use "they" and
"their" as singular pronouns--and did so themself when using
pronouns to refer back to "someone" or something similar.-a On the
other hand, this is apparently fairly common.]

I sometimes use "they" when referring to an indefinite individual.
However, I don't think a person should declare oneself a committee.

In the dystopia of Ayn Rand's _Anthem_, plural pronouns are used
exclusively, and using a first person singular pronoun is a capital
crime. Most people don't know such pronouns ever existed.

[Hal Heydt]
In Graydon SAuders _Commonweal_ series, "they"/"them" is used for
persons who are not intimate partners.

Its interesting how this is a recurring topic in this group, and
its a shame that English doesn't have word for a singular person
of indefinite sex.

'They/them' is fine when the phrase makes clear its one person:
"Someone called. They need a lift."

but when the sex is obvious, its kind of awkward:

"Henry called. They need a lift."

I've actually run into situations where the singular them
created confusion, where I was asked to give a lift, but
it was unclear how many seats in the car were involved.

"Not everyone has a ride. Can you give them a lift?

pt
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <10i18rr$drob$1@dont-email.me>, petertrei@gmail.com
(Cryptoengineer) wrote:

"Henry called. They need a lift."

That seems a perfectly reasonable construction to me. British.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

On 12/18/2025 8:57 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:

In article <10i18rr$drob$1@dont-email.me>, petertrei@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:

"Henry called. They need a lift."

That seems a perfectly reasonable construction to me. British.

The default there, assuming one doesn't know Henry's preferred pronouns,
would be "Henry called, he needs a lift." Making assumptions based on
the name.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

On 19/12/2025 03:57, Paul Dormer wrote:

In article <10i18rr$drob$1@dont-email.me>, petertrei@gmail.com (Cryptoengineer) wrote:

"Henry called. They need a lift."

That seems a perfectly reasonable construction to me. British.

Perfectly correct usage in Australia, as I was taught by my
Grand-parents who were born here in the (late) 19th century.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <inne1m-6cf.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
grschmidt@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt) wrote:

Perfectly correct usage in Australia, as I was taught by my

Cheers,

By your what?
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <10i1c6s$etf0$1@dont-email.me>, tppm@rr.ca.com (Tim Merrigan)
wrote:

The default there, assuming one doesn't know Henry's preferred
pronouns, would be "Henry called, he needs a lift." Making
assumptions based on the name.

I'm sure there are women called Henry, short for Henrietta. And Enid
Blyton had a girl called George in the Famous Five. For that matter, the
main character in Dead Like Me was called George.
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

On 12/19/2025 10:07 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:

In article <inne1m-6cf.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
grschmidt@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt) wrote:

Perfectly correct usage in Australia, as I was taught by my

Cheers,

By your what?

By their grand parents, as it says in the original post you truncated.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.sf.fandom

In article <memo.20251219180659.2520A@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i1c6s$etf0$1@dont-email.me>, tppm@rr.ca.com (Tim Merrigan) >wrote:

The default there, assuming one doesn't know Henry's preferred
pronouns, would be "Henry called, he needs a lift." Making
assumptions based on the name.

I'm sure there are women called Henry, short for Henrietta. And Enid
Blyton had a girl called George in the Famous Five. For that matter, the >main character in Dead Like Me was called George.

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

The classic example of course is "Man is viviparous and he bears live young." --scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 12/19/25 2:38 PM, Tim Merrigan wrote:

On 12/19/2025 10:07 AM, Paul Dormer wrote:

In article <inne1m-6cf.ln1@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,
grschmidt@acm.org (Gary R. Schmidt) wrote:

Perfectly correct usage in Australia, as I was taught by my

-a-a-a-aCheers,

By your what?

By their grand parents, as it says in the original post you truncated.

In Thunderbird, it's rendered as an unusually long unwrapped line. There
may be something odd about it that gets truncated by some newsgroup readers.
--
Gary McGath http://www.mcgath.com
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In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.
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In article <10i49j2$1divc$1@dont-email.me>, tppm@rr.ca.com (Tim Merrigan) wrote:

By their grand parents, as it says in the original post you
truncated.

Not by me, and I'm not using Thunderbird, but an off-line reader.
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In article <memo.20251220161633.24716B@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

To be honest, both of those options are often confusing.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 12/20/25 11:40, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <memo.20251220161633.24716B@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

To be honest, both of those options are often confusing.
--scott

And when we're done, we can talk about the Oxford comma.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. --Jack Shafer
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Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/20/25 11:40, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <memo.20251220161633.24716B@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

To be honest, both of those options are often confusing.
--scott

And when we're done, we can talk about the Oxford comma.

And this, in short, is why we need a language academy.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On 12/20/2025 12:04 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/20/25 11:40, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <memo.20251220161633.24716B@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

To be honest, both of those options are often confusing.
--scott

And when we're done, we can talk about the Oxford comma.

And this, in short, is why we need a language academy.
--scott

A dozen or so slightly different style guides aren't enough, now you
want to add a language academy, too.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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On 12/20/25 15:04, Scott Dorsey wrote:

Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/20/25 11:40, Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article <memo.20251220161633.24716B@pauldormer.cix.co.uk>,
Paul Dormer <prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk> wrote:

In article <10i4agq$51t$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:

Yes, older OED editions mentioned the male pronouns including the
female. This has been removed and I think that is unfortunate.

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

To be honest, both of those options are often confusing.
--scott

And when we're done, we can talk about the Oxford comma.

And this, in short, is why we need a language academy.
--scott

The French have the Acad|-mie Fran|oaise, but the French still continue to
use anglicisms such as "email" (rather than "courriel") and "streaming" (rather than "diffusion en direct"). Given how independent-minded
Americans can be, why on earth would you think an official language
academy would have any effect?

(Example: In New York, probably only about ten percent call it "Avenue
of the Americas" rather than "Sixth Avenue". And we've seen how popular
the diktat to rename the Gulf of Mexico or Denali has been.)
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. --Jack Shafer
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Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

The French have the Academie Francaise, but the French still continue to
use anglicisms such as "email" (rather than "courriel") and "streaming" >(rather than "diffusion en direct"). Given how independent-minded
Americans can be, why on earth would you think an official language
academy would have any effect?

The problem with the French, Spanish, and Swedish academies is that they
have no actual enforcement capacity. Once we start putting people in jail
for using "party" as a verb and for incorrect use of semicolons, then we
will see some progress in language standardization.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

(Example: In New York, probably only about ten percent call it
"Avenue of the Americas" rather than "Sixth Avenue". And we've seen
how popular the diktat to rename the Gulf of Mexico or Denali has
been.)

He may have finally reached the limit now that he's renamed the
Kennedy Center for himself. People have been comparing this to
adding one's own name to someoene else's tombstone.
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
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On 12/20/25 23:04, Keith F. Lynch wrote:

Evelyn C. Leeper <evelynchimelisleeper@gmail.com> wrote:

(Example: In New York, probably only about ten percent call it
"Avenue of the Americas" rather than "Sixth Avenue". And we've seen
how popular the diktat to rename the Gulf of Mexico or Denali has
been.)

He may have finally reached the limit now that he's renamed the
Kennedy Center for himself. People have been comparing this to
adding one's own name to someoene else's tombstone.

If only.

(As in, I expect my name to be added to what is now Mark's headstone.)
--
Evelyn C. Leeper, http://leepers.us/evelyn
Golden ages always shine more brightly from a distance. --Jack Shafer
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On Sat, 20 Dec 2025 16:16 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

Has anybody said "they-all" yet?
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


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On 12/21/2025 8:25 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2025 16:16 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
prd@pauldormer.cix.co.uk (Paul Dormer) wrote:

I'd much rather people used the singular they.

Has anybody said "they-all" yet?

I don't think I've heard it, though I have heard they all (did
something), no hyphen and clearly plural, from context.
--

Qualified immunity = virtual impunity.

Tim Merrigan

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com
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