Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:<snippo>
Or not, as in my case.I am put off by the nonsense being spouted ("free" A/C when you have
to pay for the electricity used to run the heat pump). And the
descriptions of how to use one (same temp 24/7).
The "Free A/C" likely refers to the fact that the compressor
can be used for both heating and cooling, one need not
purchase a separate A/C compressor as with conventional
forced air heating systems.
Ah, but that was gas.I had a furnace replaced about 20 years ago.
So did I.
They basically assembled
it from about a gazillion parts.
They removed the outer box and placed in in the closet,
plumbed in the gas, attached the thermostat wiring and
plugged it in. Replacing the cold air return venting
took far longer (total job was about 2 hours).
--I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
I'll take wires over either of your mentioned alternatives, myself.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 16:22:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
<snippo>
I am put off by the nonsense being spouted ("free" A/C when you have
to pay for the electricity used to run the heat pump). And the >>>descriptions of how to use one (same temp 24/7).
The "Free A/C" likely refers to the fact that the compressor
can be used for both heating and cooling, one need not
purchase a separate A/C compressor as with conventional
forced air heating systems.
Or not, as in my case.
Until the Blob of a decade or so ago, AC was rarely needed here.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 12:58:58 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-20 15:22:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
<snippo>
I could say the same about such "innovations" as 3D BD Players and
associated TVs, TVs with enormous screens, and other tech stuff which
is useful in itself but subject to "improvements" nobody really cares
about except "the more-money-than-sense brigade", as you so aptly
describe them.
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first",=20 >>> because there was/is very little actual content to play on them at=20
those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such=20 >>> content for years yet (if ever).
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick=20 >>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them
to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 16:22:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
<snippo>
I am put off by the nonsense being spouted ("free" A/C when you have
to pay for the electricity used to run the heat pump). And the
descriptions of how to use one (same temp 24/7).
The "Free A/C" likely refers to the fact that the compressor
can be used for both heating and cooling, one need not
purchase a separate A/C compressor as with conventional
forced air heating systems.
Or not, as in my case.
Until the Blob of a decade or so ago, AC was rarely needed here.
More recently it has become a much more reasonable idea.
Not last summer, however. Lots of nice sunny days, and several
shopping days where I went in the morning ("70s feels like 80s")
rather than the afternoons ("80s feels like 90s"), but nothing like
the summers before ("90s feels like 100s" and worse).
I had a furnace replaced about 20 years ago.
So did I.
They basically assembled
it from about a gazillion parts.
They removed the outer box and placed in in the closet,
plumbed in the gas, attached the thermostat wiring and
plugged it in. Replacing the cold air return venting
took far longer (total job was about 2 hours).
Ah, but that was gas.
Mine was oil. Currently burning Bioheat (C) Fuel, which is basically
diesel plus enought biofuel to avoid a tax passed by the city some
time back. Or maybe a bit more biofuel, who can say?
As to being forced, I don't know how that is coming along. The plan I
last heard about involved updating the Fire Code to make all existing
oil tanks illegal [1]. They would have to retired (hello, heat pump!)
or replaced with a modern version satisfying the code.
[1] Apparently, there was a major push back in the 50s (when my
parents went from coal to oil) to convert to oil, so most of those
tanks are now 75 or so years old. So this may be a prudent thing to
do, as leaks are ecodisasters, particularly if they leave your
property and affect your neighbors.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
I'll take wires over either of your mentioned alternatives, myself.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 16:22:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
<snippo>
I am put off by the nonsense being spouted ("free" A/C when you have
to pay for the electricity used to run the heat pump). And the
descriptions of how to use one (same temp 24/7).
The "Free A/C" likely refers to the fact that the compressor
can be used for both heating and cooling, one need not
purchase a separate A/C compressor as with conventional
forced air heating systems.
Or not, as in my case.
Until the Blob of a decade or so ago, AC was rarely needed here.
More recently it has become a much more reasonable idea.
Not last summer, however. Lots of nice sunny days, and several
shopping days where I went in the morning ("70s feels like 80s")
rather than the afternoons ("80s feels like 90s"), but nothing like
the summers before ("90s feels like 100s" and worse).
I had a furnace replaced about 20 years ago.
So did I.
They basically assembled
it from about a gazillion parts.
They removed the outer box and placed in in the closet,
plumbed in the gas, attached the thermostat wiring and
plugged it in. Replacing the cold air return venting
took far longer (total job was about 2 hours).
Ah, but that was gas.
Mine was oil. Currently burning Bioheat (C) Fuel, which is basically
diesel plus enought biofuel to avoid a tax passed by the city some
time back. Or maybe a bit more biofuel, who can say?
As to being forced, I don't know how that is coming along. The plan I
last heard about involved updating the Fire Code to make all existing
oil tanks illegal [1]. They would have to retired (hello, heat pump!)
or replaced with a modern version satisfying the code.
[1] Apparently, there was a major push back in the 50s (when my
parents went from coal to oil) to convert to oil, so most of those
tanks are now 75 or so years old. So this may be a prudent thing to
do, as leaks are ecodisasters, particularly if they leave your
property and affect your neighbors.
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first", because-a there was/is very little actual content to play on them at
those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such content for years yet (if ever).
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick
thier nose against the screen.-a :-\
On 10/16/2025 8:52 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 17/10/25 12:14, Your Name wrote:
Even Muskrat's own employees say his most of his silly ideas are
unworkable or can't be done as quickly / easily as he believes. Of
course, the lunatic then simply fires them for saying that.
When you say his own employees, do you mean all of them or just your
fellow janitorial staff?
What makes you think Musk even notices the existence of the janitorial
staff?
I had a furnace replaced about 20 years ago. They basically assembled
it from about a gazillion parts. It took all day. I really don't
expect a heat pump to be the same, but I won't know till I decide/am
forced to have it done.
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it
was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
On 21/10/25 12:58, Your Name wrote:
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first",
because-a there was/is very little actual content to play on them at
those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such
content for years yet (if ever).
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick
thier nose against the screen.-a :-\
You seem to be a very unhappy poster whose main complaint is people.
Your scornful dismissal of Musk's technological visions, (some of which
have earned him incredible wealth), and your criticism of those spending money on minor or unnecessary technological improvements reeks of envy.
If you can't find your local tinny house, get some valium from your doctor.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 12:58:58 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-20 15:22:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
<snippo>
I could say the same about such "innovations" as 3D BD Players and
associated TVs, TVs with enormous screens, and other tech stuff which
is useful in itself but subject to "improvements" nobody really cares
about except "the more-money-than-sense brigade", as you so aptly
describe them.
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first",=20 >>> because there was/is very little actual content to play on them at=20
those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such=20 >>> content for years yet (if ever).
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick=20 >>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them
to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
On 18/10/25 03:57, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
On 10/16/2025 8:52 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 17/10/25 12:14, Your Name wrote:
Even Muskrat's own employees say his most of his silly ideas are
unworkable or can't be done as quickly / easily as he believes. Of
course, the lunatic then simply fires them for saying that.
When you say his own employees, do you mean all of them or just your
fellow janitorial staff?
What makes you think Musk even notices the existence of the janitorial
staff?
I was evilly plotting to wind up Your Name by belittling his societal contribution in comparison to that of Musk.
On 2025-10-21 15:54:41 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Not for a while. There was a gap between 4K TV sets and 4K discs, and
there weren't that many discs to begin with.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
They do now, but they didn't when 4K TV sets first began to be sold.
When the 4K TV sets first arrived in stores, basically the only content
was the in-store demo.
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick=20 >>>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them
to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
Depends on how close you sit to the screen. On a smaller computer
monitor where you sitting right in front of it, you'll see the
difference. On a large TV where you have to sit further back to see the >whole screen properly, you won't really see any difference.
As I said, the only real way you'll notice any difference between 4K
and 8K is if you stick your nose on the screen. The up-coming 16K, 24K,
etc. displays are simply pointless gimmicks. :-\
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-21 15:54:41 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Not for a while. There was a gap between 4K TV sets and 4K discs, and
there weren't that many discs to begin with.
Small gap of a few months. I got my 4k in 2016, and a 4K OPPO
a month later. Both still going strong.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
They do now, but they didn't when 4K TV sets first began to be sold.
It is a bit pointless to produce content that nobody can watch;
and converting film to 4k digital costs $$. Once there were
enough consumers for 4K content, the studios produced it happily.
When the 4K TV sets first arrived in stores, basically the only content
was the in-store demo.
And those TV's sure looked good upscaling 1080p, for the most part. So
a win-win for the purchaser once the ecosystem started producing 4k content.
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick >>>>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them
to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
Depends on how close you sit to the screen. On a smaller computer
monitor where you sitting right in front of it, you'll see the
difference. On a large TV where you have to sit further back to see the
whole screen properly, you won't really see any difference.
As I said, the only real way you'll notice any difference between 4K
and 8K is if you stick your nose on the screen. The up-coming 16K, 24K,
etc. displays are simply pointless gimmicks. :-\
While the conversation was about 1080P vs 4k, you bring up
4k vs. 8k, upon which I will not opine, other than to note
that absent compelling content, I see no reason to upgrade
my OLED 4K display.
I had a furnace replaced about 20 years ago. They basically assembled
it from about a gazillion parts. It took all day. I really don't
expect a heat pump to be the same, but I won't know till I decide/am
forced to have it done.
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it
was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first", because-a there was/is very little actual content to play on them at
those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such content for years yet (if ever).
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick
thier nose against the screen.-a :-\
On 10/16/2025 8:52 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 17/10/25 12:14, Your Name wrote:
Even Muskrat's own employees say his most of his silly ideas are
unworkable or can't be done as quickly / easily as he believes. Of
course, the lunatic then simply fires them for saying that.
When you say his own employees, do you mean all of them or just your
fellow janitorial staff?
What makes you think Musk even notices the existence of the janitorial
staff?
According to Mr Google:
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac computers.
On 21/10/25 04:51, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it
was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
Three years ago, I had another heat pump installed for NZ$3K.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
Both mine have limited range remote controls but my three year old heat
pump is almost as dumb as the ten year old one which is slightly more
clever than my $10 electric kettle which requires close proximity to be switched on manually.
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners
and has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple
were prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily
replace batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external
drives with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less
money than Musk?
On 2025-10-21 20:51:53 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-21 15:54:41 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Not for a while. There was a gap between 4K TV sets and 4K discs, and
there weren't that many discs to begin with.
Small gap of a few months. I got my 4k in 2016, and a 4K OPPO
a month later. Both still going strong.
According to Mr Google:
First 4K TV set released = 25 October, 2012
First 4K Blu-ray disc released = 14 February, 2016.
So, roughly 16 months.
While those "get it now" fools rushed out to buy their new TV set, the manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank and released at
least one newer model before any discs were available.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
They do now, but they didn't when 4K TV sets first began to be sold.
It is a bit pointless to produce content that nobody can watch;
and converting film to 4k digital costs $$. Once there were
enough consumers for 4K content, the studios produced it happily.
Yes, and it's equally pointless to buy a device that has no content availbale for it.
When the 4K TV sets first arrived in stores, basically the only content
was the in-store demo.
And those TV's sure looked good upscaling 1080p, for the most part. So
a win-win for the purchaser once the ecosystem started producing 4k content.
Nope, because as above, the companies updated their TVs at least once
before the discs became available.
Realistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick >>>>>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them >>>>> to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
Depends on how close you sit to the screen. On a smaller computer
monitor where you sitting right in front of it, you'll see the
difference. On a large TV where you have to sit further back to see the
whole screen properly, you won't really see any difference.
As I said, the only real way you'll notice any difference between 4K
and 8K is if you stick your nose on the screen. The up-coming 16K, 24K,
etc. displays are simply pointless gimmicks. :-\
While the conversation was about 1080P vs 4k, you bring up
4k vs. 8k, upon which I will not opine, other than to note
that absent compelling content, I see no reason to upgrade
my OLED 4K display.
"absent compelling content" ... that's precisely the point I was making about "1080p vs 4k". :-p
The same can also be said for SD vs 1080p, floppy discs vs CD-ROMs,
etc. Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
computers leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of
the older Mac computers.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable onI do not doubt this, for I have no basis for doing so.
a 4k capable screen.
On 2025-10-21 15:54:41 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2025 12:58:58 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-20 15:22:58 +0000, Paul S Person said:
<snippo>
I could say the same about such "innovations" as 3D BD Players and
associated TVs, TVs with enormous screens, and other tech stuff which >>>>> is useful in itself but subject to "improvements" nobody really cares >>>>> about except "the more-money-than-sense brigade", as you so aptly
describe them.
Yep. All these fools buying 4K and now 8K TV sets just to be "first",=20 >>>> because there was/is very little actual content to play on them at=20 >>>> those resolutions anyway and brodacast TV networks won't have any such=20 >>>> content for years yet (if ever).
There were 4K blu-rays available about the same time as 4K TV sets.
Not for a while. There was a gap between 4K TV sets and 4K discs, and
there weren't that many discs to begin with.
Who cares about broadcast TV networks in this modern era? Loads
of reality-tv crap not worth watching.
Netflix, on the other hand, provides high quality 4K content as
do other streamers.
They do now, but they didn't when 4K TV sets first began to be sold.
When the 4K TV sets first arrived in stores, basically the only content
was the in-store demo.
This sort of thing reminds me of a discussion in which theRealistically, few people would notice the difference unless they stick=20 >>>> thier nose against the screen. :-\
Huh. I would have thought that the additional pixels would allow them
to sit closer to the TV without the individual pixels becoming
visible.
The difference between 1080p and 4k content is very notable on
a 4k capable screen.
Depends on how close you sit to the screen. On a smaller computer
monitor where you sitting right in front of it, you'll see the
difference. On a large TV where you have to sit further back to see the >whole screen properly, you won't really see any difference.
As I said, the only real way you'll notice any difference between 4K
and 8K is if you stick your nose on the screen. The up-coming 16K, 24K,
etc. displays are simply pointless gimmicks. :-\
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A >patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were >prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace >batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk? That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
On 2025-10-22 03:13:38 +0000, Your Name said:<snippo: the eternal battle between the tech pioneers and those
On 2025-10-21 20:51:53 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
How did the "3d" (stereoscopy) disaster go?Small gap of a few months. I got my 4k in 2016, and a 4K OPPO
a month later. Both still going strong.
According to Mr Google:
First 4K TV set released = 25 October, 2012
First 4K Blu-ray disc released = 14 February, 2016.
So, roughly 16 months.
Oops! That's obviously a miscalculation ... it should actually say 39
months ... or 3.25 years!
While those "get it now" fools rushed out to buy their new TV set, the
manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank and released at
least one newer model before any discs were available.
That corrected calculation means there could have been three new models
of TV released before any discs (or players for that matter) were
available.
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:Thanks for the information.
On 21/10/25 04:51, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
[...]
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it
was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
Three years ago, I had another heat pump installed for NZ$3K.
I replaced a 20+ year old head pump (non-inverter) with an inverter >heat-pump at AUD3.5k for much of the house and a smaller one for AUD2.4k
for two other roomsin 2022. I also replaced the gas hot-water unit with
a heat-pump hot water service. Then I replaced the gas oven and cooktop
with an electric oven and induction cooktop AUD4k. Then I had solar >installed and now have a yearly energy bill of under AUD170 saving about >AUD1,1k per year.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
I avoid WiFi, even my solar inverter is connecteted by ethernet.
Both mine have limited range remote controls but my three year old heat
pump is almost as dumb as the ten year old one which is slightly more
clever than my $10 electric kettle which requires close proximity to be
switched on manually.
Both of mine have remote controls and can be controlled by WiFi, but as
said I don't use it, but it is there if I need to or change my mind.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:Yes. Humidity is very much part of the problem here. Something to do
On Mon, 20 Oct 2025 16:22:29 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) >>wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
<snippo>
I am put off by the nonsense being spouted ("free" A/C when you have
to pay for the electricity used to run the heat pump). And the >>>>descriptions of how to use one (same temp 24/7).
The "Free A/C" likely refers to the fact that the compressor
can be used for both heating and cooling, one need not
purchase a separate A/C compressor as with conventional
forced air heating systems.
Or not, as in my case.
Until the Blob of a decade or so ago, AC was rarely needed here.
I've lived in California for four decades and have
never had (or really needed) air conditioning. Even days
that reach over 110F cool down into the upper 50's/lower 60's
overnight.
My current home is well insulated and even on a 116F day,
doesn't exceed 82F inside, where a ceiling fan suffices.
It helps that the humidity is usually in the teens
during the hottest days.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 16:34:27 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 21/10/25 04:51, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
[...]
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it >>>> was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
Three years ago, I had another heat pump installed for NZ$3K.
I replaced a 20+ year old head pump (non-inverter) with an inverter
heat-pump at AUD3.5k for much of the house and a smaller one for AUD2.4k
for two other roomsin 2022. I also replaced the gas hot-water unit with
a heat-pump hot water service. Then I replaced the gas oven and cooktop
with an electric oven and induction cooktop AUD4k. Then I had solar
installed and now have a yearly energy bill of under AUD170 saving about
AUD1,1k per year.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 19:47:55 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-22 03:13:38 +0000, Your Name said:
On 2025-10-21 20:51:53 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
<snippo: the eternal battle between the tech pioneers and those
plodding settlers bringing up the rear -- that is, the rest of us>
Small gap of a few months. I got my 4k in 2016, and a 4K OPPO
a month later. Both still going strong.
According to Mr Google:
First 4K TV set released = 25 October, 2012
First 4K Blu-ray disc released = 14 February, 2016.
So, roughly 16 months.
Oops! That's obviously a miscalculation ... it should actually say
months ... or 3.25 years!
While those "get it now" fools rushed out to buy their new TV set,
manufacturers were laughing all the way to the bank and released
least one newer model before any discs were available.
That corrected calculation means there could have been three new
models>of TV released before any discs (or players for that matter)
were available.
How did the "3d" (stereoscopy) disaster go?
You know, the one where the theaters used polarized glasses but the TV manufacturers used what I call "flicker glasses", a term based on if
not actually used in an early /Consumer Reports/ article on them. Note
that this may (or may not) have changed.
Oh, and you only got 1 pair. If you wanted to watch a "3d"
(stereoscopic) film with your honey, you had to fork out $125.00 or so
(2000 or so dollars) for a second pair. Now /that's/ family-friendly --
not.
IOW, what you got for home use was /not/ the same as what was used in
the theater. Since "3d" (stereoscopy) is an illusion created by
presenting slightly different images to each eye, the tech used
matters. As most people agree: they consider the 1950's version
(red/blue lenses) to be different from and inferior to the polarized version. So those inclined to claim that the illusion is always the
same may want to rethink that.
The real problem, though, is illustrated by my /DVD/ of /Coraline/: the
disk has two sides. It also has a few sets of (small) red/blue paper eyeglasses. One side of the disk (the one I watch) is presented "flat".
The other side is "3d" (stereoscopic). And I believe there is at least
one other, although I don't own a copy and don't recall the name.
That's right -- "3d" (stereoscopic) movies do /not/ require a special
player and a special TV and glasses costing $125 a pair. The entire
"3d" (stereoscopic) BD/HD thing was a cynical marketing ploy.
On 10/22/25 08:51, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 16:34:27 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 21/10/25 04:51, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
[...]
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around
$8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it >>>>> was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
Three years ago, I had another heat pump installed for NZ$3K.
I replaced a 20+ year old-a head pump (non-inverter) with an inverter
heat-pump at AUD3.5k for much of the house and a smaller one for AUD2.4k >>> for two other roomsin 2022.-a I also replaced the gas hot-water unit with >>> a heat-pump hot water service. Then I replaced the gas oven and cooktop
with an electric oven and induction cooktop AUD4k.-a Then I had solar
installed and now have a yearly energy bill of under AUD170 saving about >>> AUD1,1k per year.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi
(or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of
wires.
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a If you can control it by WiFi or Bluetooth so can someone else.-a Maybe as
a relatively harmless prank or maybe to overload the heat pump and
destroy it or
the place it is heating or cooling.
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Snip of sensible content about using Ethernet.
In his first book on investing, "One up on Wall Street", Peter Lynch >discussed SmithKline, whose stock had been on a tear because of the drug >Tagamet.Well, that's one way to not have to worry about what happens when they
He commented that Tagamet is the ideal investor's drug, as patients have
to take it forever, as opposed to antibiotics, which cure the underlying >disease and are ideal patient's drugs.
Don't invest, in other words, in companies that try to cure disease.Or treat some "condition" that their doctor doesn't like, at least.
Invest in those that treat is.
On 2025-10-22 15:40:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:<snippo my rant on "3d" (stereoscopic) BD players/HD TVs>
I've never actually experienced it. I already have glasses, thank youThat's right -- "3d" (stereoscopic) movies do /not/ require a special
player and a special TV and glasses costing $125 a pair. The entire
"3d" (stereoscopic) BD/HD thing was a cynical marketing ploy.
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer >monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch >(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard ofNow /here/ is something on the topic of interest to me that makes
someone doing this?
I have heat pumps - one is controlled by short range IR remotes, and
the other by a wall panel.
I would not put them on WiFi, but not because I'm worried about someone >futzing with the temperature. I'm suspicious of the 'Internet of Things' >devices made by companies with zero notion of security. There are WiFi
'smart bulbs' that will leak your WiFi password.
I spent too long in the cybersecurity world to attach random devices
to my network.
On 10/22/2025 12:36 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 10/22/25 08:51, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 16:34:27 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 21/10/25 04:51, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
[...]
I don't know about that; I found a few years back where Consumer
Reports stated that the average cost of a heat pump was now around >>>>>> $8K. When I asked about it back when my furnace was being replaced, it >>>>>> was around $25K. $25K is quite expensive; $8K is less so (still
expensive, though).
Three years ago, I had another heat pump installed for NZ$3K.
I replaced a 20+ year old-a head pump (non-inverter) with an inverter
heat-pump at AUD3.5k for much of the house and a smaller one for AUD2.4k >>>> for two other roomsin 2022.-a I also replaced the gas hot-water unit with >>>> a heat-pump hot water service. Then I replaced the gas oven and cooktop >>>> with an electric oven and induction cooktop AUD4k.-a Then I had solar
installed and now have a yearly energy bill of under AUD170 saving about >>>> AUD1,1k per year.
I notice a distinct lack of answers to my question about using WiFi >>>>>> (or Bluetooth) to control a heat pump. Thus avoiding the pulling of >>>>>> wires.
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a If you can control it by WiFi or Bluetooth so can someone
else.-a Maybe as
a relatively harmless prank or maybe to overload the heat pump and
destroy it or
the place it is heating or cooling.
-a-a-a-a-a-a-a Snip of sensible content about using Ethernet.
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard of
someone doing this?
I have heat pumps - one is controlled by short range IR remotes, and
the other by a wall panel.
I would not put them on WiFi, but not because I'm worried about someone futzing with the temperature. I'm suspicious of the 'Internet of Things' devices made by companies with zero notion of security. There are WiFi
'smart bulbs' that will leak your WiFi password.
I spent too long in the cybersecurity world to attach random devices
to my network.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 21:25:09 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo -- WiFi attack on heat pump>
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard of
someone doing this?
I have heat pumps - one is controlled by short range IR remotes, and
the other by a wall panel.
I would not put them on WiFi, but not because I'm worried about someone
futzing with the temperature. I'm suspicious of the 'Internet of Things'
devices made by companies with zero notion of security. There are WiFi
'smart bulbs' that will leak your WiFi password.
I spent too long in the cybersecurity world to attach random devices
to my network.
Now /here/ is something on the topic of interest to me that makes
sense.
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-22 15:40:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
<snippo my rant on "3d" (stereoscopic) BD players/HD TVs>
<reference is to a DVD with a "3d" (stereoscopic) side>
That's right -- "3d" (stereoscopic) movies do /not/ require a special>> >>> player and a special TV and glasses costing $125 a pair. The entire>>
"3d" (stereoscopic) BD/HD thing was a cynical marketing ploy.
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies,
like>"Jaws 3D").
I've never actually experienced it. I already have glasses, thank you
very much.
And the reports of people barfing are off-putting.
That I have some experience with, in that I saw some of the early
Cinerama films (including /How the West was Won/) and those had scenes
known to produce barfing when actually seen in Cinerama in a Cinerama theater. Not in me, thank goodness.
Basically, it's the bits that had the viewpoint swirling around and
around that did it. Keep in mind that actual Cinerama completely
filled the eyes with the projected image: the brain had no external
reference in its visual field and so tended to accept what it was
seeing as real. Without, BTW, "3d" (stereoscopic) images or special
glasses of any kind.
As to "awful old 3D movies", I should note that the /trailer/ to
/Creature from the Black Lagoon/ boasts of its being the first film
shot in 3D underwater. Also, /Dial M for Murder/ was apparently
Hitchcock's one forey into 3D[1]. Hence the hand pointing straight at
the audience in the scene on the poster. I don't know about you, but I
don't think either of those was "awful". Not that I want to see them
in 3D.
OTOH, I have never had any particular desire to see /The Blob/ in any
format.
[1] I use "3d" (stereoscopic) to distinguish this from 3D animation.
But for live-action films, "3D" is unambiguous.
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
The one on the wall panel gets cranked up and down a bit - it's
for my bedroom as well as my office, and I prefer to sleep warmer
than I like it during the day.
The other is in the family room, and I tend to economize whan I'm
not in there.
So, they do get changed, but WiFi would be overkill.
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or >>> then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get >>> an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
I rarely turn it on in summer as it takes three days of high 30's or
40's (C) to warm up enough to require cooling in Melbourne.
In winter I usually turn it off during the day when at work and
manually turn it on in winter when it is cool enough to warrant it. I
could program it to come on in the afternoon to bank solar, but usually
am back in time to do so.
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard of
someone doing this?
On 2025-10-24 05:32:26 +0000, Stephen Harker said:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
Those look like they're the wrong way around ... unless you like
freezing in winter and baking in sumer. :-)
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers >>>> leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or >>>> then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get >>>> an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac >>>> computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and >>> has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were >>> prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their phones?
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer >monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch >(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
I wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d" (stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:The assertion of the article was that that does /not/ economize
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 21:25:09 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo -- WiFi attack on heat pump>
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard of
someone doing this?
I have heat pumps - one is controlled by short range IR remotes, and
the other by a wall panel.
I would not put them on WiFi, but not because I'm worried about someone
futzing with the temperature. I'm suspicious of the 'Internet of Things' >>> devices made by companies with zero notion of security. There are WiFi
'smart bulbs' that will leak your WiFi password.
I spent too long in the cybersecurity world to attach random devices
to my network.
Now /here/ is something on the topic of interest to me that makes
sense.
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
The one on the wall panel gets cranked up and down a bit - it's
for my bedroom as well as my office, and I prefer to sleep warmer
than I like it during the day.
The other is in the family room, and I tend to economize whan I'm
not in there.
So, they do get changed, but WiFi would be overkill.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used byI am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically. There were repors of this being used tofind houses which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling. Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak. Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling
or washing) in similar times. This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
On 2025-10-24 05:32:26 +0000, Stephen Harker said:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
Those look like they're the wrong way around ... unless you like
freezing in winter and baking in sumer. :-)
I rarely turn it on in summer as it takes three days of high 30's or
40's (C) to warm up enough to require cooling in Melbourne.
In winter I usually turn it off during the day when at work and
manually turn it on in winter when it is cool enough to warrant it.
I could program it to come on in the afternoon to bank solar, but
usually am back in time to do so.
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers >>>>> leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or >>>>> then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get >>>>> an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac >>>>> computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and >>>> has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A >>>> patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were >>>> prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically. There were repors of this being used tofind houses which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling. Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak. Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling
or washing) in similar times. This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
This is similar to my phone/internet bill: I got an email some time
back (and a letter yesterday) stating that they will be split so I
will get and have to pay two bills a month /starting in October/, and
yet my October bill (payment due 10/28/25) had both still combined.
Maybe the November bill will come in two parts ... maybe they meant
October 26 ... who can say until it happens?
At least I will finally see how the various fees, taxes, and other
petty annoyances are divided between the two!
On 2025-10-24 16:05:43 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>>
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow
internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra >>>>>> to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older >>>>>> Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its
owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health'
system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple >>>>> were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace >>>>> batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives >>>>> with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money
than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Apple has created a few connection port technologies over the years, including being a co-creator of USB-C. Some formats became popular and widely used, others didn't.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
That was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars because there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.-a There were repors of this being used tofind houses which >>> were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.-a Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in >>> the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak.-a Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling >>> or washing) in similar times.-a This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have, although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed one that we know of.
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.-a There were repors of this being used tofind houses which >>>> were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.-a Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in >>>> the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak.-a Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling >>>> or washing) in similar times.-a This is laragely to bank the solar when >>>> at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter. Does it have a digital display which is flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc. If so, it is a smart meter. If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
On 2025-10-24 16:05:43 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>>
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow
internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra >>>>>> to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older >>>>>> Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its
owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health'
system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple >>>>> were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace >>>>> batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives >>>>> with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money
than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Apple has created a few connection port technologies over the years, including being a co-creator of USB-C. Some formats became popular and widely used, others didn't.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
That was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars because there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.|e-a There were repors of this being used tofind houses >>>>> which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.|e-a Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to
heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid >>>>> power is on non-peak.|e-a Some also progarm other devices (heating/
cooling
or washing) in similar times.|e-a This is laragely to bank the solar >>>>> when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.-a Does it have a digital display which is
flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.-a If so, it is a smart meter.-a If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little plastic window has become discoloured and clouded over the years.-a :-)
On 25/10/25 15:52, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.|e-a There were repors of this being used tofind houses >>>>>> which were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for >>>>>> burgling.|e-a Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to >>>>>> heat in the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and >>>>>> the grid power is on non-peak.|e-a Some also progarm other devices >>>>>> (heating/ cooling or washing) in similar times.|e-a This is laragely to >>>>>> bank the solar when at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because >>>>> it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates >>>>> ("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and >>>>> one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy >>>>> demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see >>>>> it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.a Does it have a digital display which is
flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.a If so, it is a smart meter.a If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little plastic
window has become discoloured and clouded over the years.-a :-)
If it is not possible to see the meter, then your power company will be getting its information from your smart meter which they think you have.
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:And the Tandy 1000 I purchased back in the late 80s had a parallel
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers >>>>> leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or >>>>> then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get >>>>> an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac >>>>> computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and >>>> has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A >>>> patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were >>>> prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out >compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then >refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
On 10/24/2025 6:08 PM, Your Name wrote:<snippo: companies that tried to control their customers by creating Super-Special connectors for their equipment>
He's not talking about "the past few years". And you appear to agreeThat was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars because
there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
Yet another Shit On Stuff I Know Nothing About post from this guy....
In North America, over the past few years, pretty much every company
which sells EVs has announced cutting over to the NACS connector:
SAE standard J3400. So, yes, there's a standard. Mitsubishi is the
only holdout.
NACS is basically the Tesla connector, which proved far easier toReminds me of a dongle or two that I have that came with at least two
use, and has a larger installed base of public chargers, than any
other in the US. Older non-Teslas used CCS1 or CHAdeMO. There
are adapters available to let them use the Tesla Supercharger
network.
In Europe and Oceania, CCS2 is the standard.
In Japan, CHAdeMO.
In China, GB/T
Adapters are available for most combinations.
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:<snippo>
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows afterSo did I, but I never fooled myself that I wasn't violating the
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I could >never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
I should have pointed out that this would been in the late 90s/earlyI wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that
letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d"
(stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
Personally I am happy with a decent HD screen on the TV but lately as theIt sounds like you are using an antenna. How quaint.
weather undergoes changes I am lucky to have one good channel out of
over 50.
On 10/24/2025 12:27 PM, Paul S Person wrote:Thanks for answering a question I raised elsewhere.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools >>>from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
When was this? Time shifting TV has been legal for over 40 years:
From Wikipedia:
"Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417
(1984), also known as the "Betamax case", is a decision by the Supreme
Court of the United States which ruled that the making of individual
copies of complete television shows for purposes of time shifting does
not constitute copyright infringement, but can instead be defended as
fair use."
On 2025-10-24 05:32:26 +0000, Stephen Harker said:Actually, in terms of Fahrenheit, that is about 65 for heating and
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
Those look like they're the wrong way around ... unless you like
freezing in winter and baking in sumer. :-)
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use
Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
On 2025-10-25 04:05:10 +0000, Titus G said:Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
On 25/10/25 15:52, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au >>>>>> (Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>>>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.|e-a There were repors of this being used tofind houses >>>>>>> which were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for >>>>>>> burgling.|e-a Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to >>>>>>> heat in the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and >>>>>>> the grid power is on non-peak.|e-a Some also progarm other devices >>>>>>> (heating/ cooling or washing) in similar times.|e-a This is laragely to
bank the solar when at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because >>>>>> it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates >>>>>> ("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and >>>>>> one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy >>>>>> demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see >>>>>> it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have, >>>>> although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed >>>>> one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.a Does it have a digital display which is
flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.a If so, it is a smart meter.a If it has the five or >>>> six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little plastic
window has become discoloured and clouded over the years.-a :-)
If it is not possible to see the meter, then your power company will be
getting its information from your smart meter which they think you have.
Or the meter reader person simply opens the cabinet to read the meter. :-) >As above, I've never bothered or needed to look at how it opens.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 09:43:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows after
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I could >> never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
So did I, but I never fooled myself that I wasn't violating the
Copyright Law. Or did the Courts rule this to be Reasonable Use?
Recording the whole program, with commercials (presumably), to be seen
again later again and again and again if one wanted to?
I had some hard-to-find movies on such tapes for some time before
replacing them. I think they all came out on VHS, but any that did not
were replaced with DVDs when they came out on DVD.
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that
letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d"
(stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
I should have pointed out that this would been in the late 90s/early
00s, as I stop subscribing to /Consumer Reports/ after they insisted
on limited online access without additional payment, would not
consider a higher subscription price which would include the web-site,
and, oh yes, started treating us as "customers" with "accounts"
instead of Members of the Consumer's Union.
My last annual issue (a summary of the preceding year, and a
convenient reference as it was a PB book not a magazine issue) was 2/3
the size of the year before, and mostly descriptive articles as
opposed to articles with ratings. To get the ratings, you had to go
online. And pay extra.
Personally I am happy with a decent HD screen on the TV but lately as the
weather undergoes changes I am lucky to have one good channel out of
over 50.
It sounds like you are using an antenna. How quaint.
Have you considered using a computer and a web browser? Several offer
TV shows, organized in channels with fixed start times. I just checked
Plex and it does, so other free streaming services probably do as
well. Not 50 channels, perhaps, but then not mostly in a language you
don't understand or religious (unless you choose that category)
either.
Judging from the films I have occasionally streamed from them, there
are lots of ads. But what is TV without advertising?
I long ago realized that (at least at that time) the advertisements
often had higher production values and were more entertaining than the programs, after all.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 12:05:43 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
And the Tandy 1000 I purchased back in the late 80s had a parallel
port that required a special connector. That was, IIRC, toward the end
of "our PC must be unique even though we sell it as an IBM PC clone
idiocy".
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
On 10/25/2025 10:54 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that
timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many
infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I didn't have that problem with Doctor Who as it aired on our PBS
station. On the other hand, Babylon 5 was on UPN (and then CW) and the
local station would show the Orlando Magic basketball home games,
preempting whatever was normally shown. So start it at normal time and
let it run.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 09:43:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows after
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I could >> never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
So did I, but I never fooled myself that I wasn't violating the
Copyright Law. Or did the Courts rule this to be Reasonable Use?
Recording the whole program, with commercials (presumably), to be seen
again later again and again and again if one wanted to?
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:That's encouraging.
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use
Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
On 10/25/2025 10:54 AM, Paul S Person wrote:When I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, watching "Siskel & Ebert" on
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that
timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many
infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I didn't have that problem with Doctor Who as it aired on our PBS
station. On the other hand, Babylon 5 was on UPN (and then CW) and the
local station would show the Orlando Magic basketball home games,
preempting whatever was normally shown. So start it at normal time and
let it run.
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:<snippo text>
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
Do they actually say it uses WiFi? According to this >https://envocore.com/blog/how-do-smart-meters-communicate/
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
Do they actually say it uses WiFi? According to
this>https://envocore.com/blog/how-do-smart-meters-communicate/
<snippo text>
According to <https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/in-the-community/current-projects/advanced-metering-installations#frequentlyaskedquestions>,
which looks very similar to what I got when this first happened and
may, indeed, be more of an historical document (note reference to
masks, social distancing, and COVID) than a current project, it uses "wireless advanced meter[s]".
Guess what the "Wi" in "WiFi" stands for?
Of course it doesn't use my local WiFi network; it may not even use a
"WiFi" network or protocol as such. So your quote may be quite
correct, keeping in mind that the network used is still wireless.
Indeed, IIRC, it was attacked in part as being part of the switch to (cellular) 5G networks, which were said to rot the brain or something.
I don't pay a lot of attention to this sort of nonsense.
Note that I am not waving my arms around and claiming that "WiFi" had
a more general meaning. I am content to point out that my main point
was that the smart readers installed here were wireless and so does
not need to be read by an employee.
The article also has the cost of keeping an old meter and having it
read. The start date was March 2021, so this was some time back.
we do have a smart meter,
but I don't know when it was installed. We certainly never asked for one
nor ever paid for it to be 'upgraded' (other than being included in the standard, ever-increasing electricity prices).
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
we do have a smart meter, but I don't know when it was installed. We
certainly never asked for one nor ever paid for it to be 'upgraded'
(other than being included in the standard, ever-increasing electricity
prices).
It is slightly surprising after such inane verbosity claiming a
profundity of ignorance with regard to your meter's housing or
existence, that you now concede that you do have a smart meter in
agreement with your power company which you hate because it keeps
increasing prices.
An elderly aunt of mine tells of how in her youth she could buy an ice
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof
and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
I would touch anything Tesla made with a bazillion mile barge pole. It's
a garbage company, with garbage products, run by a drug-addled lunatic.
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
If HP actually gave a damn about reliability they would first of all
fix their firmware bugs but secondly they would let end-users install
random disks in order to make last-minute workarounds.
All HP cares about is taking my money. They are not really HP any
more.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
And we turn as much of that stuff off because it usually reduces
reliability of a standalone system. Can be a big win in the virtual
system world, but that is not my world.
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even
bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
Well that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic electrical
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>>option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But >>>>whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:I mentioned a coming change to the electric bill, which requires them
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not >>>> only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
How did we get onto smart meters? Smart meters use the 900 MHz ISM band,
not 2.4 GHz, because they want the added range. The ones in our area use
a fairly primitive interrogate-reply protocol at 1200bps.
This wasn't about smart meters inititally, it was about home thermostats,Which is nice to know.
and many of them DO use wifi to link to the furnace as well as to allow >people to control the temperature and schedule from their phones.
Two differnet ISM band applications, two different protocols, two different >ISM bands.--
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart metersThey told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We never asked
for a smart meter and we were never told one had been installed, so we
had no idea we did now have a smart meter. Presumably the power company
went around installing them (without notice for some silly reason) at
some point so they could save on wages and fuel costs of having real
people employed as meter readers.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:an
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be =
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But >>>>>whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is >>>>>unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get >>>>checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a >>>>SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=3D20 >>>>servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>>>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=3D20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
Yes. All of those enclosures pretty much use the same three USB-to-SATA >chipsets.
I do urge you to get an enclosure that supports USB3 if you value your time, >however.
--scott
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>>> option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays,
redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
That's the question here, after all.
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even >>> bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
Well that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic electrical
Pretty much everything 'Your Name' wrote is just plain wrong.
- Massively expensive to install. Incorrect. My 7.5kw panels have
paid for themselves in less than five years, and now _make_ money,
and will continue to do so for the next two decades.
- Provide very little power. While there are some geographical
areas with better insolation, solar panels even generate power on
cloudy days, albeit less than on a sunny day.
- Constant cleaning. Depends on climate, rain will wash most of
the dust off. I clean mine once a year during the dry season.
- I get wholesale rates for offsetting generation, and near-wholesale
for excess generation (yes, the power companies are greedy, and for
new connections, the excess generation isn't compensated as well as
mine).
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:an
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>> Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be =
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>> back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. ButHP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem -- >>>>>
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=3D20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=3D20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>> redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
I don't understand your question. All disk drives have standard
interfaces (IDE, SATA, SCSI, SAS, FC) and are compatable with all
enclosures that provide a standard interface. The issue with HP
systems is that the system adds a requirement that only certain drives
are qualified to work with their on-board disk management software and
boot firmware (formerly known as BIOS); purely a software issue - the hardware interface is bog-standard.
I've never had an issue with any hard drive working with any suitable enclosure (or even with no enclosure), absent defects in the hard drive itself (e.g. crashed heads).
On 10/27/25 08:14, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>> Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>>>> option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>> back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. ButHP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem -- >>>>>
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>> redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
That's the question here, after all.
As along as you match up the drive and interface in the purchased box
you should have no problems. That is if the drive is ide you have to have an
ide to USB interface. Or if a SATA drive then a SATA to USB interface.
I have assemble my own external drives for years but it is easier now than
when it was 50 pin scsi to 50 pin scsi.
The only caveat I can see it that you have to use anti-static measures to avoid component damage.
bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2025.10 Linux 6.12.55-pclos1- KDE
Plasma 6.5.0
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter. Presumably
the power company went around installing them (without notice for some
silly reason) at some point so they could save on wages and fuel costs
of having real>people employed as meter readers.
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
On 2025-10-27 14:31:29 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive >>>> to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an
even
bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy >>>> the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
-a-a-a-aWell that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic
electrical
Pretty much everything 'Your Name' wrote is just plain wrong.
-a - Massively expensive to install.-a-a Incorrect.-a-a My 7.5kw panels have >> -a-a-a paid for themselves in less than five years, and now _make_ money,
-a-a-a and will continue to do so for the next two decades.
-a - Provide very little power.-a-a-a While there are some geographical
-a-a-a areas with better insolation, solar panels even generate power on
-a-a-a cloudy days, albeit less than on a sunny day.
-a - Constant cleaning.-a-a Depends on climate, rain will wash most of
-a-a-a the dust off.-a-a I clean mine once a year during the dry season.
-a - I get wholesale rates for offsetting generation, and near-wholesale
-a-a-a for excess generation (yes, the power companies are greedy, and for >> -a-a-a new connections, the excess generation isn't compensated as well as >> -a-a-a mine).
It wasn't "wrong", although it does depend on where you are. Some places
are better than others for any one or more of those problems,b ut they
are real problems with solar panels.
I did forget one problem ... solar panels look damn ugly. This creates another problem, since some people don't want to see the panels on their house from the road or from certain rooms, they put the panels in less
than ideal locations, which of course again means less power generated.
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as >electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
In article <10dmfof$d3a9$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
An elderly aunt of mine tells of how in her youth she could buy an ice
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as
electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
If I had the choice of giving up ice cream or giving up air conditioning,
I would definitely give up air conditioning. Ice cream will serve you
well when there is no air conditioning, but when there is no ice cream,
air conditioning is no substitute.
Today's ice cream is chocolate hazelnut swirl. With homemade swirl that
is much less sweet than Nutella.
--scott
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter.
Presumably the power company went around installing them (without
notice for some silly reason) at some point so they could save on
wages and fuel costs of having real>people employed as meter readers.
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect. At worst you could run an aerial cable along side the pipe and
up onto the house's roof (of course, that would be easiest with houses
being built or major rennovations).
* "Box" is a relative term. It doesn't have a base and is simply slid
over the water meter as protection from weather, mowers, etc. Now that
the weather here is getting less wet, I'll have to remember to go out
and dig out our meter box so I can bury it a little deeper - the plumber repair a minor mains leak recently didn't re-bury the box proerpy, so it
now sticks up above the ground level.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
We had that. Because of the mains leak, the estimated amount directly
after the repair had been done was higher than it should have been.
Lukckily the water company here gives refunds for quickly repaired mains leaks outside the house when you provide them with proof from a
registered plumber.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
On 28/10/25 12:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
Probably less than half New Zealand homes are metered for water.
Auckland, the largest city, is metered. There is a separate water charge
on annual Council rates where water is not metered.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >>> generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services (along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >>> generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services >(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
In article <10do7ti$oss$1@panix2.panix.com>,I have a 2T disk because that is what the HP Envy came with.
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
Yes. All of those enclosures pretty much use the same three USB-to-SATA >>chipsets.
I do urge you to get an enclosure that supports USB3 if you value your time, >>however.
--scott
As I recall, copying my data back from a 4T drive after a OS re-install
was a several day task.
I did forget one problem ... solar panels look damn ugly. This creates >another problem, since some people don't want to see the panels onJudging from articles I have seen online, HOA's have been known to
their house from the road or from certain rooms, they put the panels in
less than ideal locations, which of course again means less power
generated.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:Locally, another problem might be that work on the plumbing from the
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >generally present at the water company valve box.
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:<snippo>
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
At each meter? Or further up the pipe system?Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:<snippo: topic is hypothetical wireless smart water meters>
Up here, they are all aerial.Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services >(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
On 2025-10-28 00:08:37 +0000, Your Name said:Up here, that would rather confuse the distinction between "City
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless >>>>>> signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >>>> generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the >>> power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services
(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
Or, even easier, just put the smart meter inside the house where the
mains supply enters the building. (External garden taps might be a
problem if the pipes branch off befoer entering the house.)
On 10/27/2025 5:09 PM, Your Name wrote:That would work.
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter.
Presumably the power company went around installing them (without
notice for some silly reason) at some point so they could save on
wages and fuel costs of having real>people employed as meter readers.
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect. At worst you could run an aerial cable along side the pipe and
up onto the house's roof (of course, that would be easiest with houses
being built or major rennovations).
* "Box" is a relative term. It doesn't have a base and is simply slid
over the water meter as protection from weather, mowers, etc. Now that
the weather here is getting less wet, I'll have to remember to go out
and dig out our meter box so I can bury it a little deeper - the plumber
repair a minor mains leak recently didn't re-bury the box proerpy, so it
now sticks up above the ground level.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
We had that. Because of the mains leak, the estimated amount directly
after the repair had been done was higher than it should have been.
Lukckily the water company here gives refunds for quickly repaired mains
leaks outside the house when you provide them with proof from a
registered plumber.
Our water meter has a small black box sitting on top of it which is a >wireless interface. I believe they just slowly drive down to street
pinging each one.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 23:05:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2025 18:45:48 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-28 00:08:37 +0000, Your Name said:
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here -- >>>>>>> because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless >>>>>>> signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is >>>>> not generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the >>>> power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered
services>> (along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly closethe smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water
together>> anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
Or, even easier, just put the smart meter inside the house where
mains supply enters the building. (External garden taps might be
problem if the pipes branch off befoer entering the house.)
Up here, that would rather confuse the distinction between "City
Utilities' responsibility" and "homeowner's/landlord's"
responsibility.
Then again, there /is/ a simple shut-down where the water enters our
house. For use when needed, obviously.
The houses around here have two shut-off points - one in the water
meter box and another where water pipe enters the house (usually behind
a panel in the garage's external wall). That's how we were able to out
our leak was somewhere in the short pipe between the meter and the
house, and not inside the house itself.
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