From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.tolkien


Of course we all know what that refers to in Tolkien's writings.

But that phrase also occurs in Act II Scene 4 of /Der Freischntz/ as
part of Caspar's incantation when making the magic bullets: "Bless
the seven, nine, and three". "The seven" could be the bullets, but do
the "nine" and "three" have any specific meaning, or is the whole
phrase just part of the mumbo-jumbo of the spell?

The Wolf's Glen scene was one of the examples in the lecture series
/How to Listen to and Understand Opera/, which I've been working
through, but that was my first exposure to Freischntz so I don't know
the opera at all well yet.
--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
Guide to the Letters: https://www.tolkienguide.com/guide/letters/
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.tolkien

Stan Brown <someone@example.com> writes:

But that phrase also occurs in Act II Scene 4 of /Der Freisch|+tz/ as
part of Caspar's incantation when making the magic bullets: "Bless
the seven, nine, and three". "The seven" could be the bullets, but do
the "nine" and "three" have any specific meaning, or is the whole
phrase just part of the mumbo-jumbo of the spell?

I just reread through the scene (which I mostly know by heart) on

https://opera-guide.ch/operas/der+freischutz/libretto/de/
https://opera-guide.ch/operas/der+freischutz/libretto/en/

There are 8 ingredients in the casting ladle, so I could not make any
sense from the 9. The 3 has Christian relevance and is also due to the
rhyme ("drei" ... "dass die Kugel tuechtig sei"). A 2 ("zwei") would
also work, but lacks the Christian connotation.

The 7 alludes to the bullets, but also plays a prominent role throughout
the opera, just search for "seven" in the English libretto.

Good catch and interesting connection!

Axel
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.tolkien

On 2025-11-15, Stan Brown <someone@example.com> wrote:

But that phrase also occurs in Act II Scene 4 of /Der Freisch|+tz/ as
part of Caspar's incantation when making the magic bullets: "Bless
the seven, nine, and three". "The seven" could be the bullets, but do
the "nine" and "three" have any specific meaning, or is the whole
phrase just part of the mumbo-jumbo of the spell?

I'm not sure that's the correct meaning. The whole sentence is
Salbe mir so Kraut, als Blei,
Segn' es sieben, neun und drei,
Dass die Kugel t|+chtig sei!

Anoint for me herb and lead
bless it seven, nine and three
that the bullet effective be.

"it" probably refers to "lead"?
I suspect that "sieben, neun und drei" should be understood either as
"7-fold, 9-fold, and 3-fold", or "by 7, 9 and 3 [magical or mystical
objects]".

The opera-guide.ch English libretto says

Bless for me the herb and lead,
Bless them by seven, nine and three,
That the bullet be obedient!


Any German speakers on the group still? (If so, can you also explain
the so ... als construction?)

I doubt that Friedrich Kind had any actual knowledge of magical
practices, so I'd go with the "mumbo-jumbo" analysis!
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.tolkien

Julian Bradfield <jcb@inf.ed.ac.uk> writes:

I'm not sure that's the correct meaning. The whole sentence is
Salbe mir so Kraut, als Blei,
Segn' es sieben, neun und drei,
Dass die Kugel t|+chtig sei!

Anoint for me herb and lead
bless it seven, nine and three
that the bullet effective be.

"it" probably refers to "lead"?

Not clear, but in my understanding "it" ("es") refers to the whole
"magical process".

Any German speakers on the group still? (If so, can you also explain
the so ... als construction?)

It is poetic/old-fashioned for "sowohl ... als auch" ("anoint for me
BOTH herb AND lead" or "anoint for me herb AS WELL AS lead").

I'd go with the "mumbo-jumbo" analysis!

+1

Axel

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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.books.tolkien

On Sat, 15 Nov 2025 13:51:42 -0800, Stan Brown wrote:

Of course we all know what that refers to in Tolkien's writings.

But that phrase also occurs in Act II Scene 4 of /Der Freischntz/ as
part of Caspar's incantation when making the magic bullets: "Bless
the seven, nine, and three". "The seven" could be the bullets, but do
the "nine" and "three" have any specific meaning, or is the whole
phrase just part of the mumbo-jumbo of the spell?

The Wolf's Glen scene was one of the examples in the lecture series
/How to Listen to and Understand Opera/, which I've been working
through, but that was my first exposure to Freischntz so I don't know
the opera at all well yet.

Thanks for replying, Axel and Julian! I was hoping for some
correspondence with the specific numbers, but at least I know now
that that wasn't the librettist's intention.
--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
Guide to the Letters: https://www.tolkienguide.com/guide/letters/
FAQ of the Rings: https://BrownMath.com/general/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
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