TLotR 50th Anniversary page 947,end of "Mount Doom" chapter:
"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
On page 950,third page of "Field of Cormallen" chapter:
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
Is this a recapitulation of the same statement,
as the narrative returns to the perspective of
Frodo and Sam?...or is it (as the interpolated
"that" might argue,has it been stable in all
editions?) an instance in which he repeated himself
to Sam for whatever reason having previously said
the same words without the "that"?
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Louis Epstein wrote:
TLotR 50th Anniversary page 947,end of "Mount Doom" chapter:
"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
On page 950,third page of "Field of Cormallen" chapter:
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
Is this a recapitulation of the same statement,
as the narrative returns to the perspective of
Frodo and Sam?...or is it (as the interpolated
"that" might argue,has it been stable in all
editions?) an instance in which he repeated himself
to Sam for whatever reason having previously said
the same words without the "that"?
I am going to say that it is 'recapitulation' indeed, to tie the
diverging narratives back together. Good catch, though! Would be
interesting to see the comparison... there ought to be multi-edition
eBook versions of all the books, where one may easily switch between them.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and >Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of >Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in
_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where
Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out >before now. :)
On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:40:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com>
wrote:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and >>Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of >>Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in >>_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where >>Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out >>before now. :)
Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two situations produced similar thoughts.
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >> On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:40:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com>It's been too long since I read the book to be clear.
wrote:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and >>>Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of >>>Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in >>>_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where >>>Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out >>>before now. :)
Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two
situations produced similar thoughts.
So you believe it was two different situations and lines
rather than the same line chronicled differently?
On Tue, 6 Jan 2026 05:07:18 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws>
wrote:
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >>> On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:40:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com>
wrote:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and >>>>Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of >>>>Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in >>>>_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where >>>>Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out >>>>before now. :)
Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two
situations produced similar thoughts.
So you believe it was two different situations and lines
rather than the same line chronicled differently?
It's been too long since I read the book to be clear.
But my memory does suggest that they occur in very different contexts.
With the same Hobbit reacting to similar psychological states the same
way.
But, if you prefer the path of the Higher Criticism, feel free. It can
do no harm, for it is ultimately pointless.
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >> On Tue, 6 Jan 2026 05:07:18 -0000 (UTC), Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws>Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost a
wrote:
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >>>> On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:40:16 -0000 (UTC), "O. Sharp" <ohh@panix.com>
wrote:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
[...]"'Yes,'said Frodo.'...now all is over.
I am glad you are here with me.Here at
the end of all things,Sam.'"
"'I am glad that you are here with me,'
said Frodo.'Here at the end of all things,
Sam.'"
I do not have any pre-1966 "First Edition" copies,but my oldest
Ballantine and HMCo Second Editions both have the discrepancy.
Did Hammond & Scull flag this in their work?
The First Edition has the same discrepancy for "that", and Hammond and >>>>>Scull's _Reader's Companion_ makes no note of it. In fact that line of >>>>>Frodo's (or those lines, if you prefer) doesn't even rate a mention in >>>>>_HoME IX_, even though it includes a reference to a plot outline where >>>>>Frodo was still named "Bingo". I guess _nobody_ wanted to point it out >>>>>before now. :)
Or perhaps everybody else was sane enough to recognize that the two
situations produced similar thoughts.
So you believe it was two different situations and lines
rather than the same line chronicled differently?
It's been too long since I read the book to be clear.
But my memory does suggest that they occur in very different contexts.
With the same Hobbit reacting to similar psychological states the same
way.
But, if you prefer the path of the Higher Criticism, feel free. It can
do no harm, for it is ultimately pointless.
Both of them refer to Frodo speaking to Sam on the slopes of Orodruin
after the collapse of Barad-dur...there would not be confusion over whether >this is a repetition of the exact same speech if there were any clear >distinction.
Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost a
finger, is in shock and not thinking clearly? And reacting to Sam the
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >> Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost aYou snipped this:
finger, is in shock and not thinking clearly? And reacting to Sam the
I doubt it. Frodo was awake hours before Sam woke up, but slept again. >Nothing indicates that he was in anyway bewildered. Sam showed more
signs than Frodo.
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:It has been a long time since I read the book, but am I really to
Both of them refer to Frodo speaking to Sam on the slopes of Orodruin
after the collapse of Barad-dur...there would not be confusion over whether >>this is a repetition of the exact same speech if there were any clear >>distinction.
On 7 Jan 2026 18:01:15 GMT, Stephan Seitz <stse+usenet@rootsland.net>
wrote:
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >>> Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost a
finger, is in shock and not thinking clearly? And reacting to Sam the
I doubt it. Frodo was awake hours before Sam woke up, but slept again. >>Nothing indicates that he was in anyway bewildered. Sam showed more
signs than Frodo.
You snipped this:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
Both of them refer to Frodo speaking to Sam on the slopes of Orodruin >>>after the collapse of Barad-dur...there would not be confusion over whether >>>this is a repetition of the exact same speech if there were any clear >>>distinction.
It has been a long time since I read the book, but am I really to
understand that Frodo and Sam took hours-long naps after the Ring went
into the Cracks of Doom while waiting for the Eagles?
And I didn't say "bewildered". I said "in shock". Losing a finger by
having it bitten off by Gollum tends to do that to people.
Very strange. Perhaps, the next time I have a pause in my eBook
reading, it would be time to reread (some of) JRRT.
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >> On 7 Jan 2026 18:01:15 GMT, Stephan Seitz <stse+usenet@rootsland.net>It's called PTSD, once the actual shock disappears.
wrote:
In rec.arts.books.tolkien Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote: >>>> Well, have you considered the possibility that Frodo, having lost a
finger, is in shock and not thinking clearly? And reacting to Sam the
I doubt it. Frodo was awake hours before Sam woke up, but slept again. >>>Nothing indicates that he was in anyway bewildered. Sam showed more
signs than Frodo.
You snipped this:
Louis Epstein <le@lekno.ws> quotes and asks:
Both of them refer to Frodo speaking to Sam on the slopes of Orodruin >>>>after the collapse of Barad-dur...there would not be confusion over whether >>>>this is a repetition of the exact same speech if there were any clear >>>>distinction.
It has been a long time since I read the book, but am I really to
understand that Frodo and Sam took hours-long naps after the Ring went
into the Cracks of Doom while waiting for the Eagles?
And I didn't say "bewildered". I said "in shock". Losing a finger by
having it bitten off by Gollum tends to do that to people.
How large a sample size of similarly affected individuals are you
relying on to posit this conclusion?
--Very strange. Perhaps, the next time I have a pause in my eBook
reading, it would be time to reread (some of) JRRT.
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