This will probably work if only because the Philistines are so badly
wounded, it's either yield or die.
On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 20:44:22 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
This will probably work if only because the Philistines are so badly
wounded, it's either yield or die.
So much for owe donAt negotiate with terroristso, eh?
On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 01:40:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro wrote:
So much for rCLwe donrCOt negotiate with terroristsrCY, eh?
This will only work long term if the Philistines remove HAMAS from
power. It isn't the Gazans that are the terrorists, it's their HAMAS leadership.
On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:27:23 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Sat, 11 Oct 2025 01:40:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro wrote:
So much for owe donAt negotiate with terroristso, eh?
This will only work long term if the Philistines remove HAMAS from
power. It isn't the Gazans that are the terrorists, it's their HAMAS
leadership.
Nice to say, pity the Israel Government only pays lip service to that
claim.
I wonder why Hamas should be treated differently from Sinn Fein, though: >after peace came to Northern Ireland, their armed wing, the IRA, agreed to >disband, so that the political arm could become part of the political >process; once the Qassam Brigades disarm, why shouldnAt Hamas be accorded >the same opportunity?
On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 03:25:41 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I wonder why Hamas should be treated differently from Sinn Fein,
though: after peace came to Northern Ireland, their armed wing, the
IRA, agreed to disband, so that the political arm could become part
of the political process; once the Qassam Brigades disarm, why
shouldnrCOt Hamas be accorded the same opportunity?
They have the opportunity now.
They've had the opportunity several times over the decades.
Consider the West Bank. Fatah took that route but only after Israel
built the wall and made terrorist attacks all but impossible.
On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 19:07:58 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 03:25:41 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I wonder why Hamas should be treated differently from Sinn Fein,
though: after peace came to Northern Ireland, their armed wing, the
IRA, agreed to disband, so that the political arm could become part
of the political process; once the Qassam Brigades disarm, why
shouldnrCOt Hamas be accorded the same opportunity?
They have the opportunity now.
Are you sure they do? Remember what Israel did to the last ceasefire,
just a few months ago.
They've had the opportunity several times over the decades.
Israel has never done anything more than agree to stalling tactics,
while it continues to kill and evict Palestinians and steal their
land.
Consider the West Bank. Fatah took that route but only after Israel
built the wall and made terrorist attacks all but impossible.
The attacks still keep happening, though. Every time Israel retaliates
by destroying the family home of one rCLterroristrCY, they encourage 10 others to recruit to the same cause.
The civilized world should just diplomatically wall off the Middle
East and let these factions work out their own solution, much as the
world did during the US Civil War.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 01:42:08 +0000, Mitchell Holman wrote:
The civilized world should just diplomatically wall off the Middle
East and let these factions work out their own solution, much as the
world did during the US Civil War.
The US, of all countries, would never agree to that.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 02:53:20 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence iso-8 wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 01:42:08 +0000, Mitchell Holman wrote:
The civilized world should just diplomatically wall off the Middle
East and let these factions work out their own solution, much as the
world did during the US Civil War.
The US, of all countries, would never agree to that.
"The Jews in the US, of all countries, would never agree to that."
It's more the Christians I'm worried about.
In article <10ci32h$204g6$1@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence DrCOOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
It's more the Christians I'm worried about.
You should be worried about the Muslims, who still butcher each other by
the millions, and who want to take over the world.
On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 19:07:58 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Sun, 12 Oct 2025 03:25:41 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I wonder why Hamas should be treated differently from Sinn Fein,
though: after peace came to Northern Ireland, their armed wing, the
IRA, agreed to disband, so that the political arm could become part
of the political process; once the Qassam Brigades disarm, why
shouldnAt Hamas be accorded the same opportunity?
They have the opportunity now.
Are you sure they do? Remember what Israel did to the last ceasefire,
just a few months ago.
They've had the opportunity several times over the decades.
Israel has never done anything more than agree to stalling tactics,
while it continues to kill and evict Palestinians and steal their
land.
Consider the West Bank. Fatah took that route but only after Israel
built the wall and made terrorist attacks all but impossible.
The attacks still keep happening, though. Every time Israel retaliates
by destroying the family home of one oterroristo, they encourage 10
others to recruit to the same cause.
The civilized world should just
diplomatically wall off the Middle
East and let these factions work
out their own solution, much as the
world did during the US Civil War.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 02:53:20 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence iso-8 wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 01:42:08 +0000, Mitchell Holman wrote:
The civilized world should just diplomatically wall off the Middle
East and let these factions work out their own solution, much as the
world did during the US Civil War.
The US, of all countries, would never agree to that.
"The Jews in the US, of all countries, would never agree to that."
They've been fighting in that region for 10,000+ years. Nothing we
do now will ever stop that.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 05:40:22 +0000 (UTC), hello there wrote:
In article <10ci32h$204g6$1@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence DAOliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
It's more the Christians I'm worried about.
You should be worried about the Muslims, who still butcher each other by
the millions, and who want to take over the world.
At least, if you insist on looking on it that way, they want to have a >world. As opposed to the loony Evangelical Christians, who want to bring >about the oEnd Timeso and the oRaptureo and all the rest of it, and who
see the foundation of the modern state of Israel as a key requirement, in >their mythology, for this to happen.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 00:45:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Are you sure they do? Remember what Israel did to the last ceasefire,
just a few months ago.
I remember Oct 7.
Israel has never done anything more than agree to stalling tactics,
while it continues to kill and evict Palestinians and steal their
land.
Then we disagree. "From the river to the sea." Sounds like a plan to
share, doesn't it? /s
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 18:35:13 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2025 00:45:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Are you sure they do? Remember what Israel did to the last ceasefire,
just a few months ago.
I remember Oct 7.
oIt is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen
in a vacuum. The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of
suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by
settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their
people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a
political solution to their plight have been vanishing.
oThe grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling
attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the
collective punishment of the Palestinian people.o
-- Antonio Guterrez, UN Secretary-General
from ><https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/un-chief-says-hamas-attacks-did-not-occur-in-vacuum-sparking-israeli-fury/>
How far back do you want to go?
Israel has never done anything more than agree to stalling tactics,
while it continues to kill and evict Palestinians and steal their
land.
Then we disagree. "From the river to the sea." Sounds like a plan to
share, doesn't it? /s
How about obetween the Sea and the Jordano -- is that any better?
Let me know, then IAll tell you where it came from.
They've been fighting for thousands of years.
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:55:55 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
They've been fighting for thousands of years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Things have never been the same since.--
You want to just walk away from that? Go ahead.
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 19:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:55:55 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
They've been fighting for thousands of years.
The involvement of the Christians and their rCLCrusadesrCY to rCLreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelsrCY took that fight to a whole new level.
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local Christians.
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 21:02:51 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 19:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:55:55 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
They've been fighting for thousands of years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >Christians.
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that their
meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle East are
now.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D-|Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European
Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local
Christians.
That was 500 years ago.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European
Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local
Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:28:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Utter nonsense. It all began because the Muslim entities made war
against Christians and Israelites forcing them out of their cities and territories. See ArabuByzantine wars for reference
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European
Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local
Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
ImagineNoleftists <MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote in >news:cljuekhm45cfbi27amg6aum09nv5ia74r7@4ax.com:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:28:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the >>>Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Utter nonsense. It all began because the Muslim entities made war
against Christians and Israelites forcing them out of their cities and
territories. See ArabuByzantine wars for reference
"The capture of Jerusalem from Muslim control
was the primary goal of the First Crusade
(1095-1102 CE), a combined military campaign
organised by western rulers, the Pope, and
the Byzantine Empire. There followed a mass
slaughter of all the Muslims and Jews of
Jerusalem, the latter being seen as
accomplices. The city was systematically
ransacked and looted for its precious
objects, and when the dead piled up
to such an extent that they threatened
to spread disease, Muslim prisoners were
forced to burn the bodies of their fellows
outside the city in huge pyres before
themselves being massacred in cold blood."
https://tinyurl.com/zmmd5va
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 21:02:51 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 19:48:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro wrote:
On Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:55:55 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
They've been fighting for thousands of years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >Christians.
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that their
meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle East are
now.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 06:31:58 +0000 (UTC), hello there wrote:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European
Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local
Christians.
That was 500 years ago.
Your culture may have a shorter attention span than that, theirs doesnAt.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com>
wrote:
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >>@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >>>> Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >>>> Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
Tribal territorial conflict is about way more than religion, Dummy.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:37:47 -0400, ImagineNoleftists
<MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com> >>wrote:
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >>>@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >>>>> Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >>>>> Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
Tribal territorial conflict is about way more than religion, Dummy.
Religion is the rallying call, stupid.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Things have never been the same since.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:22:00 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:37:47 -0400, ImagineNoleftists >><MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com> >>>wrote:
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >>>>@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader >>>>>> horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >>>>>> Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >>>>>> Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
Tribal territorial conflict is about way more than religion, Dummy.
Religion is the rallying call, stupid.
I don't believe religion was the reason Greece and Rome went off
conquering territory. I believe it was gold and silver, and maybe
slaves.
ImagineNoleftists <MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote in >news:cljuekhm45cfbi27amg6aum09nv5ia74r7@4ax.com:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:28:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle
East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the >>>Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Utter nonsense. It all began because the Muslim entities made war
against Christians and Israelites forcing them out of their cities and
territories. See ArabuByzantine wars for reference
"The capture of Jerusalem from Muslim control
was the primary goal of the First Crusade
(1095-1102 CE), a combined military campaign
organised by western rulers, the Pope, and
the Byzantine Empire. There followed a mass
slaughter of all the Muslims and Jews of
Jerusalem, the latter being seen as
accomplices. The city was systematically
ransacked and looted for its precious
objects, and when the dead piled up
to such an extent that they threatened
to spread disease, Muslim prisoners were
forced to burn the bodies of their fellows
outside the city in huge pyres before
themselves being massacred in cold blood."
https://tinyurl.com/zmmd5va
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:21:54 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com>
wrote:
ImagineNoleftists <MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote in >>news:cljuekhm45cfbi27amg6aum09nv5ia74r7@4ax.com:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:28:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 03:09:43 -0400, ImagineNoRightists did not write:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 01:34:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Europeans (and their descendant Americans) cannot pretend that
their meddling had nothing to do with the way things in the Middle >>>>>> East are now.
Not that I approve of the "crusades," but the tribal hostility
preceeded that unfortunate event by many years.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the >>>>Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Utter nonsense. It all began because the Muslim entities made war
against Christians and Israelites forcing them out of their cities and
territories. See ArabuByzantine wars for reference
Bullshit. Modern distraction.
"The capture of Jerusalem from Muslim control
was the primary goal of the First Crusade
(1095-1102 CE), a combined military campaign
organised by western rulers, the Pope, and
the Byzantine Empire. There followed a mass
slaughter of all the Muslims and Jews of
Jerusalem, the latter being seen as
accomplices. The city was systematically
ransacked and looted for its precious
objects, and when the dead piled up
to such an extent that they threatened
to spread disease, Muslim prisoners were
forced to burn the bodies of their fellows
outside the city in huge pyres before
themselves being massacred in cold blood."
https://tinyurl.com/zmmd5va
Bullshit. Modern distraction.
This fight between the Philistines and Hebrews has been going on for
over three thousand years - long before there were Muslims or
Christians. They've been fighting since before the Babylonian
captivity which marked great evolution in Hebrew religious traditions.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:European
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 06:31:58 +0000 (UTC), hello there wrote:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the
localChristians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the
doesnAt.Christians.
That was 500 years ago.
Your culture may have a shorter attention span than that, theirs
Their culture includes an endless cycle of revenge. Nobody seems to
get the idea that the violence can stop. The Irish and English did
it. Muslims can't?
Muslims have a long history of welcoming
other faiths in their midst.
The problem is with religion. Period.
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab Byzantine wars.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoRightists didnAt write:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab Byzantine
wars.
And then the Christians came along and really showed them what a obig >religion based waro was like.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman wrote:
The problem is with religion. Period.
The problem is with a religion that says its god is the only true god, all >other gods are false.
The problem is with religions that say they are the arbiters of what is >wrong and right, you must follow the religious rulebook rather than your
own human conscience.
There are religions that donAt do these things: animism, shamanism ... in >short, the really old religions, predating the time of the monotheists,
seem to have a better hold on the human instinct to believe in Something >Other, without exploiting it for the gain of the power elite.
Governor Swill <governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote in >news:btevek963niarrm4h24u0efr68eigbfklh@4ax.com:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D OliveiroEuropean
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 06:31:58 +0000 (UTC), hello there wrote:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the
localChristians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the
doesnAt.Christians.
That was 500 years ago.
Your culture may have a shorter attention span than that, theirs
Their culture includes an endless cycle of revenge. Nobody seems to
get the idea that the violence can stop. The Irish and English did
it. Muslims can't?
Muslims have a long history of welcoming
other faiths in their midst. When Europe was
busy expelling Jews, Islamic countries were
welcoming them. In the Lavant, in Africa, in
Moorish Spain.
The whole reason the "Inquisition" was
"Spanish" was the large number of Jews found
in Moorish Spain during the "Reconquista". The
Jews were not in Spain because they liked the
weather, it was the muslims accepted them when
all the Christian nations of Europe expelled them.
There was no "Inquisistion" of Jews under
Islam. That was a strictly Christian thing.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 18:35:13 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com>
wrote:
Muslims have a long history of welcoming
other faiths in their midst.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C2657980978
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:22:00 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:37:47 -0400, ImagineNoleftists >><MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com> >>>wrote:
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >>>>@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader >>>>>> horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >>>>>> Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >>>>>> Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
Tribal territorial conflict is about way more than religion, Dummy.
Religion is the rallying call, stupid.
I don't believe religion was the reason Greece and Rome went off
conquering territory. I believe it was gold and silver, and maybe
slaves.
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars. In modern times, most of the wars were not based on
religion at all. It's mostly in the Middle East where "religion is the >rallying call."
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 18:35:13 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com>Crusader
wrote:
Governor Swill <governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote in >>news:btevek963niarrm4h24u0efr68eigbfklh@4ax.com:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 07:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 06:31:58 +0000 (UTC), hello there wrote:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding
horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the >>European
Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the >>local
Christians.
That was 500 years ago.
Your culture may have a shorter attention span than that, theirs >>doesnAt.
Their culture includes an endless cycle of revenge. Nobody seems to
get the idea that the violence can stop. The Irish and English did
it. Muslims can't?
Muslims have a long history of welcoming
other faiths in their midst. When Europe was
busy expelling Jews, Islamic countries were
welcoming them. In the Lavant, in Africa, in
Moorish Spain.
The whole reason the "Inquisition" was
"Spanish" was the large number of Jews found
in Moorish Spain during the "Reconquista". The
Jews were not in Spain because they liked the
weather, it was the muslims accepted them when
all the Christian nations of Europe expelled them.
There was no "Inquisistion" of Jews under
Islam. That was a strictly Christian thing.
That was 500 years ago. This is now.
Squables abetween the Philistines and Hebrews were, of course, not
between Christians and Muslims. That was the issue raised about the
Crusades in this thread.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:27:23 -0400, ImagineNoleftists
<MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:22:00 -0400, Governor Swill >><governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 10:37:47 -0400, ImagineNoleftists >>><MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 13:13:15 +0000, Mitchell Holman <noemail@aol.com> >>>>wrote:
hello there <no-spam-thank-you@not.home> wrote in news:10cnf4u$5tn$1 >>>>>@pcls7.std.com:
In article <10cmtmi$3bg6j$3@dont-email.me>,
Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The Crusades had fuck all to do with the Philistines.
They were there, unfortunately in the way of the marauding Crusader >>>>>>> horde, along with everybody else. They got slaughtered by the European >>>>>>> Christians, along with everybody else -- Jews, Muslims, even the local >>>>>>> Christians.
That was 500 years ago. Get on with the sodding program, and drop
this Crusaders/Evangelists BS. The problem is the Muslims, their
endless wars with each other (and with Israel), and the goal many
of them cherish -- to take over the world.
The problem is with religion. Period.
"God gave this land to us!"
"No, God gave this land to US!"
Century after century, generation
after generation.
Tribal territorial conflict is about way more than religion, Dummy.
Religion is the rallying call, stupid.
I don't believe religion was the reason Greece and Rome went off
conquering territory. I believe it was gold and silver, and maybe
slaves.
We weren't talking about Greece and Rome. We were talking about the >Crusades. If you can't keep up, at least refrain from moving the goal
posts.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoleftists wrote:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars. In modern times, most of the wars were not based on >>religion at all. It's mostly in the Middle East where "religion is the >>rallying call."
That might be true if you completely skipped European history from
about 1450 to 1800.
The Crusades was an ill-advised attempt to retake the "holy Land" for Christianity after the Muslims took it from the Christians.
When secular Israelis claim rCLGod gave this land to usrCY May 29, 2019
Israeli Ambassador to the UN, Danny Danon, created something of a
viral sensation last week when, during a speech in the Security
Council, he dramatically brandished a Bible and declared "This is
the deed to our land."
Times change. Religious intepretation changes. What was then, is not neccessarily now.
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and Christianity by millennia.
... the root of the discussion is the current Philistine/Hebrew
conflict in Palestine.
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 14:01:39 -0400, ImagineNoleftists wrote:
The Crusades was an ill-advised attempt to retake the "holy Land" for
Christianity after the Muslims took it from the Christians.
Multiple attempts. Not some minor peccadillo from some fringe group which >was quickly abandoned, but an ongoing, systematic, violent and bloody
series of campaigns, sanctioned from the very top of the Christian power >hierarchy, the damage from which reverberates down through the ages to >today.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 13:32:14 -0400, Governor Swill
<governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoleftists wrote:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars. In modern times, most of the wars were not based on >>>religion at all. It's mostly in the Middle East where "religion is the >>>rallying call."
That might be true if you completely skipped European history from
about 1450 to 1800.
Eastern Europe and the Middle East, perhaps.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 13:52:48 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
... the root of the discussion is the current Philistine/Hebrew
conflict in Palestine.
There was no modern conflict, until the Christians decided to get rid of >their unwanted Jewish population (or the remnants of it, after that
attempt at exterminating them) by offering them ovoluntary migrationo to a >ohomelando far enough away to be oout of sight, out of mindo.
Remember the Zionist slogan: oa land without a people, for a people
without a lando.
The fact that there were already people on that land that was supposedly >owithout a peopleo ... a slightly inconvenient fact, ignored for the
moment, but eventually paving the way for (another) genocide ...
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim the
Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 14:06:33 -0400, ImagineNoleftists
<MeanDog@NoLefties.dot> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 13:32:14 -0400, Governor Swill >><governor.swill@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoleftists wrote:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab >>>>Byzantine wars. In modern times, most of the wars were not based on >>>>religion at all. It's mostly in the Middle East where "religion is the >>>>rallying call."
That might be true if you completely skipped European history from
about 1450 to 1800.
Eastern Europe and the Middle East, perhaps.
LOL! You got some reading to do, boy!
The Reformation kicked off about the time Guttenburg printed his first
bible and Columbus landed in the Americas. The sixteenth century was >dominated by the struggles of Catholic Spain and eastern Europe
against England and northern Europe. Read up a bit on Elizabeth I of
England for a primer.
The English Civil War came about because the king had secretly
converted to Catholocism.
Religious issues continued through the middle of the 17th century with
the Thirty Years War.
---
The Thirty Years' War,[h] fought primarily in Central Europe between
1618 and 1648, was one of the most destructive conflicts in human
history. An estimated 4.5 to 8 million soldiers and civilians died
from battle, famine, or disease, while parts of Germany reported
population declines of over 50%.[19] Related conflicts include the
Eighty Years' War, the War of the Mantuan Succession, the
Franco-Spanish War, the Torstenson War, the DutchuPortuguese War, and
the Portuguese Restoration War.
Its causes derived from religious conflict within the Holy Roman
Empire, sparked by the 16th-century Reformation. The 1555 Peace of
Augsburg attempted to resolve this by dividing the Empire into
Catholic and Lutheran states, but was later destabilised by the
expansion of Protestantism beyond these boundaries. Combined with >disagreements over the limits of imperial authority, religion was thus
an important factor in starting the war. However, its scope and extent
was largely the consequence of external drivers such as the
FrenchuHabsburg rivalry and the Dutch Revolt.[20]
---
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War>
LOL! You got some reading to do, boy!
<snip>
The Reformation kicked off about the time Guttenburg printed his first
bible and Columbus landed in the Americas. The sixteenth century was dominated by the struggles of Catholic Spain and eastern Europe
against England and northern Europe. Read up a bit on Elizabeth I of
England for a primer.
The English Civil War came about because the king had secretly
converted to Catholocism.
Religious issues continued through the middle of the 17th century with
the Thirty Years War.
<snip>
So fucking what? They are a wild, violent and childish people, every
single one. They've been fighting for over three thousand years using
one excuse or another and today's conflicts are no different. Even
the Arabs have smartened up enough to get out of the way.
They will continue to fight for thousands of years more. There will
be no peace in the ME until the last Philistine and the last Hebrew
are dead.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 06:52:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D-|Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoRightists didnrCOt write:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars.
And then the Christians came along and really showed them what a
rCLbig religion based warrCY was like.
Actually, the Christians were there first. They were there before
Islam existed. The Byzantine empire was Christian under Constantine.
I might want to check your history knowledge before you talk about
it.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 02:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D-|Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their rCLCrusadesrCY to rCLreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelsrCY took that fight to a whole new level.
Actually, it was the Muslims who began that fight.
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 03:59:07 -0400, ImagineNorightists did not write:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 06:52:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoRightists didnAt write:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars.
And then the Christians came along and really showed them what a
obig religion based waro was like.
Actually, the Christians were there first. They were there before
Islam existed. The Byzantine empire was Christian under Constantine.
Those were more peaceful, non-European Christians.
And they were also victims of the genocide when the European
Christians turned up.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2You might want to check your history knowledge before you talk about
it.
Do that.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 03:10:54 -0400, ImagineNoleftists wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 02:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new level.
Actually, it was the Muslims who began that fight.
Strange. I thought your side was arguing the fight had been going on
for omillenniao, predating both Islam and Christianity -- predating
Judaism, even.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 02:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|+Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their rCLCrusadesrCY to rCLreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelsrCY took that fight to a whole new
level.
Then maybe Mohammed shouldn't have taken Palestine from the
Christians.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 22:36:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 03:59:07 -0400, ImagineNorightists did not write:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 06:52:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoRightists didnAt write:
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars.
And then the Christians came along and really showed them what a
obig religion based waro was like.
Actually, the Christians were there first. They were there before
Islam existed. The Byzantine empire was Christian under Constantine.
<LOL> Constantine was a Roman emperor, you pathetic moron.
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send
the Crusades, Dimwit.
You might want to check your history knowledge before you talk about
it.
Do that.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 12:39:05 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 02:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new
level.
Then maybe Mohammed shouldn't have taken Palestine from the
Christians.
What?? Trying to say that was originally CHRISTIAN land, now?
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
<LOL> Not necessarly originally, you ignorent fool, but it was
officially Christian under the Roman empire before it was Muslum.
All this information is available on the internet, Dummy. I'm only
rubbing your nose in it so that you understand what an ignorant moron
you are.
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 00:57:55 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro ><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 12:39:05 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 02:29:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:29:27 -0400, Governor Swill wrote:
Still not getting it, are you? This fight preceded both Islam and
Christianity by millennia.
The involvement of the Christians and their oCrusadeso to oreclaim
the Holy Land from the infidelso took that fight to a whole new
level.
Then maybe Mohammed shouldn't have taken Palestine from the
Christians.
What?? Trying to say that was originally CHRISTIAN land, now?
<LOL> Not necessarly originally, you ignorent fool, but it was
officially Christian under the Roman empire before it was Muslum.
All this information is available on the internet, Dummy. I'm only--
rubbing your nose in it so that you understand what an ignorant moron
you are.
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 19:37:13 -0400, No_Leftists_Here
<MeanDog@Menace.dot> wrote:
On Fri, 17 Oct 2025 22:36:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro >><ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 03:59:07 -0400, ImagineNorightists did not write:
On Thu, 16 Oct 2025 06:52:33 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D|Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:39:42 -0400, ImagineNoRightists didnAt write: >>>>>
I believe the very first big religion based wars were the Arab
Byzantine wars.
And then the Christians came along and really showed them what a
obig religion based waro was like.
Actually, the Christians were there first. They were there before
Islam existed. The Byzantine empire was Christian under Constantine.
Those were more peaceful, non-European Christians.
<LOL> Constantine was a Roman emperor, you pathetic moron.
Yes and the Byzantine was the eastern Roman Empire. It got that name
after the fall of Rome for it's capital, Byzantium, later,
Constantinople, today, Istanbul.
And they were also victims of the genocide when the European
Christians turned up.
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send
the Crusades, Dimwit.
The Byzantines were Greek Christians.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2You might want to check your history knowledge before you talk about
it.
Do that.
Details, details, details.
Nope. The Christians took it from the Jews who took it from pagans.Then maybe Mohammed shouldn't have taken Palestine from the
Christians.
What?? Trying to say that was originally CHRISTIAN land, now?
The Jews have left and come back to Palestine a few times, each time
being replaced by some other ethnicity/religion.
The Christians have allied with the Jews on Palestine because the Jews
have promised access to Holy Christian sites which Islam has not.
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send
the Crusades, Dimwit.
The Byzantines were Greek Christians.
It was part of the Roman Empire, under Constantine, the first
Christian Roman Emperor.
Governor Swill wrote:
Nope. The Christians took it from the Jews who took it from pagans.Then maybe Mohammed shouldn't have taken Palestine from the
Christians.
What?? Trying to say that was originally CHRISTIAN land, now?
The Jews have left and come back to Palestine a few times, each time
being replaced by some other ethnicity/religion.
Soon after Christianity began Jews rebelled against Rome. This resulted
in Rome kicking Jews out, not a voluntary exit.
To escape Roman wrath--
Christians declared themselves separate from Jews. Their neighbours
included Greeks, Egyptians, anyone wanderring through.
The Christians have allied with the Jews on Palestine because the Jews
have promised access to Holy Christian sites which Islam has not.
Palestinians include Christians whom Israel murders. Israel murders >non-Palestinian Christian clergy.
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 12:53:06 -0400, No_Leftists_Here wrote:
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send
the Crusades, Dimwit.
The Byzantines were Greek Christians.
It was part of the Roman Empire, under Constantine, the first
Christian Roman Emperor.
Technically earlier than that. Rome was divide among multiple
emperors at different times in its history. Byzantium served as the
capitol of the eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire) for centuries.
Constantine was a Byzantine who took over Rome.
Governor Swill wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 12:53:06 -0400, No_Leftists_Here wrote:
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send >>>>> the Crusades, Dimwit.
The Byzantines were Greek Christians.
It was part of the Roman Empire, under Constantine, the first
Christian Roman Emperor.
Technically earlier than that. Rome was divide among multiple
emperors at different times in its history. Byzantium served as the
capitol of the eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire) for
centuries.
Constantine was a Byzantine who took over Rome.
Rome was a united empire (nominally). Diocletian became emperor and >reorganised the government to have four shared emperors, including >Constantine. He ran the northeast empire, building its capitol >Constantinople which is renamed Istanbul by Turks.
Diocletian resigned but the territorial split became permanent resulting
in the Western and Eastern empires.
Constantine converted from pagan to christian. He ended repression of >christianity, introducing religious freedom.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2025 13:51:47 -0700, "chine.bleu"
<chine.bleu@yahoo.com> wrote:
Governor Swill wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2025 12:53:06 -0400, No_Leftists_Here wrote:
<LOL> The Byzantines were Roman Christians and asked the Pope to send >>>>>> the Crusades, Dimwit.
The Byzantines were Greek Christians.
It was part of the Roman Empire, under Constantine, the first
Christian Roman Emperor.
Technically earlier than that. Rome was divide among multiple
emperors at different times in its history. Byzantium served as the
capitol of the eastern Roman Empire (later the Byzantine Empire) for
centuries.
Constantine was a Byzantine who took over Rome.
Rome was a united empire (nominally). Diocletian became emperor and
reorganised the government to have four shared emperors, including
Constantine. He ran the northeast empire, building its capitol
Constantinople which is renamed Istanbul by Turks.
Diocletian resigned but the territorial split became permanent resulting
in the Western and Eastern empires.
Constantine converted from pagan to christian. He ended repression of
christianity, introducing religious freedom.
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches are hardly bastions of religious
freedom.
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