• The next Governmnet: a coalition of National and Labour?

    From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Tue Dec 30 16:10:11 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an
    outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on
    consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance
    (tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership
    behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes
    (CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free
    doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour
    after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring
    coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Tony@lizandtony@orcon.net.nz to nz.general on Tue Dec 30 19:41:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an
    outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance
    (tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership
    behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes
    (CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free
    doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour
    after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring
    coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.

    Labour should seriously consider this following the partial (maybe total) collapse of TPM and the currently idiotic Greens but I am not sure NZ politicians are mature enough to work towards a common goal - this country's wellbeing.
    I would like to be proven wrong.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Gordon@Gordon@leaf.net.nz to nz.general on Tue Dec 30 20:57:00 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On 2025-12-30, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.

    Labour should seriously consider this following the partial (maybe total) collapse of TPM and the currently idiotic Greens but I am not sure NZ politicians are mature enough to work towards a common goal - this country's wellbeing.
    I would like to be proven wrong.

    I am of the view that any non fringe party is actions are good for the
    country as a whole. It is the method which is in question.

    There is also the matter of politics and the people. Fundermentally the Left can not agree with the Right as they are on the other side so it is not the way of doing it. At present this is felt strongly.

    The public can not put up with the other side's ideas being good for the Country's well being.


    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Wed Dec 31 11:18:13 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 19:41:01 -0000 (UTC), Tony
    <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.

    Labour should seriously consider this following the partial (maybe total) >collapse of TPM and the currently idiotic Greens but I am not sure NZ >politicians are mature enough to work towards a common goal - this country's >wellbeing.
    I would like to be proven wrong.

    The question also applies to National: would they prefer to form a
    Government with Labour, now that the Ardern/Robertson era is over, or
    ACT and NZF? Having a single partner is generally much easier to
    manage than 2, given a fair coalition agreement with good-faith
    relationships maintained.
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BR@blah@blah.blah to nz.general on Thu Jan 1 05:55:43 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an
    outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance
    (tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership
    behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes
    (CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free
    doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour
    after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring
    coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's
    guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP
    has been for this country.

    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that
    the two never amalgamate.

    Bill.
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Thu Jan 1 10:47:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from
    ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current
    Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to
    major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through
    leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count,
    the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority
    position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them
    into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy
    than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's
    guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.

    What an absurd and extreme view. Hate is such a destructive emotion
    and it has no place in Parliament. Having said that I agree that
    there are no longer any insurmountable policy hurdles between National
    and Labour, and a 2-party dominant coalition has advantages in terms
    of a contest of ideas.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP
    has been for this country.

    MMP has delivered us from single-party minority Governments. With
    every Parliament elected under FPP since the emergence of political
    parties, the government was formed by the party that won the most
    seats, and in every case most voters did not vote for that party.
    Despite this lack of popular support, that party could do what it
    liked.

    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that
    the two never amalgamate.

    Forming a coalition Government is not amalgamation and never will be.
    MMP has taken us exactly where it was supposed to - proportional
    representation in Parliament and is a huge improvement over what
    happened with the Muldoon and Lange governments.

    MMP is not perfect and does need tweaking, but reverting to FPP is
    most certainly the preserve only of dictator-style minority
    government.
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?=@ldo@nz.invalid to nz.general on Thu Jan 1 01:08:26 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR wrote:

    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each
    other's guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They
    would conspire against the population to further their own self
    interest, and there would be no effective opposition.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster
    MMP has been for this country.

    Because of course it wasnrCOt possible under the old system, was it ...
    oh wait, it was.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mutley@mutley2000@hotmail.com to nz.general on Fri Jan 2 15:00:09 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from >>>ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current >>>Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to >>>major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through >>>leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count, >>>the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority >>>position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them >>>into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy >>>than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's
    guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.

    What an absurd and extreme view. Hate is such a destructive emotion
    and it has no place in Parliament. Having said that I agree that
    there are no longer any insurmountable policy hurdles between National
    and Labour, and a 2-party dominant coalition has advantages in terms
    of a contest of ideas.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP
    has been for this country.

    MMP has delivered us from single-party minority Governments. With
    every Parliament elected under FPP since the emergence of political
    parties, the government was formed by the party that won the most
    seats, and in every case most voters did not vote for that party.
    Despite this lack of popular support, that party could do what it
    liked.

    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that
    the two never amalgamate.

    Forming a coalition Government is not amalgamation and never will be.
    MMP has taken us exactly where it was supposed to - proportional >representation in Parliament and is a huge improvement over what
    happened with the Muldoon and Lange governments.

    MMP is not perfect and does need tweaking, but reverting to FPP is
    most certainly the preserve only of dictator-style minority
    government.

    Just like it was during the Adern 2020 government..
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From BR@blah@blah.blah to nz.general on Wed Jan 7 05:10:17 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 10:47:25 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside
    the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from >>>ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government
    is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy
    meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current >>>Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to >>>major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in
    1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through >>>leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing
    young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical
    practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT
    will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count, >>>the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority >>>position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them >>>into Government without relying on parties who have become more
    extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not
    as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to
    Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy >>>than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's
    guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.

    What an absurd and extreme view.

    I would rather see politicians bleating and bickering with each other
    than to see an orderly and well behaved debating chamber.
    Dictatorships have quiet parliaments.

    Hate is such a destructive emotion
    and it has no place in Parliament.

    Nevertheless, there is plenty of it on display. It seems quite evident
    that the Maori party and the greens despise those who stand in their
    way. I suspect they don't like each other very much either. Hate is
    one of those emotions that those with an unhealthy lust for political
    power have seem to have in abundance.

    There is an unpleasant quirk in human nature that is particularly
    strong in some people (not all, but certainly far too many). The
    desire to control other people and boss them around. Politics
    represens a very attractive carreer path for such people, and they are
    over represented in the politics of every country. The default
    political system is dictatorship. You only have to look at the vast
    majority of governments around the world to see evidence of that. Representative government is very fragile, and a grand coalition
    formed out of the gutless and evil politicians that make up a
    significant part of today's parliament would be very difficult to get
    rid of.

    Having said that I agree that
    there are no longer any insurmountable policy hurdles between National
    and Labour, and a 2-party dominant coalition has advantages in terms
    of a contest of ideas.

    I suspect that any coalition formed between National and Labour would
    feature the worst aspects of both parties.

    There are only two political stripes. Rich80105 used to blather on
    about a 2 dimensional political compass, but the political spectrum is
    a one dimensional line, with big controlling government at one end and
    small, core-function focused government at the other. All political
    parties are either in favour of more taxes, regulations and
    restrictions, or the opposite. There is no political system, either
    real or conceived, that does not have a place on this like somewhere.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP
    has been for this country.

    MMP has delivered us from single-party minority Governments. With
    every Parliament elected under FPP since the emergence of political
    parties, the government was formed by the party that won the most
    seats, and in every case most voters did not vote for that party.
    Despite this lack of popular support, that party could do what it
    liked.

    I have never promoted FPP as an ideal system, but it is better than
    MMP which puts people in parliament who have no public mandate and are motivated only by party loyalty. MMP was sold to a gullible public by
    the media. STV seems to be a far better system than either of these.
    No voting system is perfect, but MMP was a retrograte step in this
    country's politcal history, particularly since the racist Maori seats
    still exist, and which MMP should have rendered unnecessary.


    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that
    the two never amalgamate.

    Forming a coalition Government is not amalgamation and never will be.

    It would be if the two major parties unified and formed a government.
    Who could stand against it?

    MMP has taken us exactly where it was supposed to - proportional >representation in Parliament and is a huge improvement over what
    happened with the Muldoon and Lange governments.

    It's not though. A small party has the ability to hold a government to
    ransom. That is not proportional representation.

    MMP is not perfect and does need tweaking, but reverting to FPP is
    most certainly the preserve only of dictator-style minority
    government.

    Where have I ever advocated a return to FPP? The most obvious tweak
    would be to get rid of the Maori seats and replace MMP with STV.

    Bill.
    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Gordon@Gordon@leaf.net.nz to nz.general on Tue Jan 6 23:35:32 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On 2026-01-06, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:
    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 10:47:25 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside >>>>the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>>>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from >>>>ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government >>>>is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy >>>>meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current >>>>Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>>>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to >>>>major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in >>>>1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through >>>>leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>>>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>>>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>>>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing >>>>young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical >>>>practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>>>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT >>>>will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>>>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>>>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count, >>>>the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority >>>>position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them >>>>into Government without relying on parties who have become more >>>>extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not >>>>as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to >>>>Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>>>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy >>>>than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's >>>guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.


    People seem to forget the ballot box appears ever 3 years. All MP's do keep this in mind. Is a section goes rouge they are likely to be removed at the
    next election.


    What an absurd and extreme view.

    I would rather see politicians bleating and bickering with each other
    than to see an orderly and well behaved debating chamber.
    Dictatorships have quiet parliaments.




    Hate is such a destructive emotion
    and it has no place in Parliament.

    Nevertheless, there is plenty of it on display. It seems quite evident
    that the Maori party and the greens despise those who stand in their
    way. I suspect they don't like each other very much either. Hate is
    one of those emotions that those with an unhealthy lust for political
    power have seem to have in abundance.

    These are certainly the times. There are far to many people working on the principle that its is all black and white, which it is not. Politices is
    varied and complicated.


    There is an unpleasant quirk in human nature that is particularly
    strong in some people (not all, but certainly far too many). The
    desire to control other people and boss them around.

    I have seen that this is 4% of the human race, and they need to be controlled by the remaining 96%.

    Politics
    represens a very attractive carreer path for such people, and they are
    over represented in the politics of every country. The default
    political system is dictatorship. You only have to look at the vast
    majority of governments around the world to see evidence of that. Representative government is very fragile, and a grand coalition
    formed out of the gutless and evil politicians that make up a
    significant part of today's parliament would be very difficult to get
    rid of.

    No it the right people stood and got in. (A fat chance I know) However it is either this or civil unrest.


    Having said that I agree that
    there are no longer any insurmountable policy hurdles between National
    and Labour, and a 2-party dominant coalition has advantages in terms
    of a contest of ideas.

    I suspect that any coalition formed between National and Labour would
    feature the worst aspects of both parties.

    A very good chance as they see thmselves as the alpha party and the other
    side as rubbish.


    There are only two political stripes. Rich80105 used to blather on
    about a 2 dimensional political compass, but the political spectrum is
    a one dimensional line, with big controlling government at one end and
    small, core-function focused government at the other. All political
    parties are either in favour of more taxes, regulations and
    restrictions, or the opposite. There is no political system, either
    real or conceived, that does not have a place on this like somewhere.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP >>>has been for this country.

    MMP has delivered us from single-party minority Governments. With
    every Parliament elected under FPP since the emergence of political >>parties, the government was formed by the party that won the most
    seats, and in every case most voters did not vote for that party.
    Despite this lack of popular support, that party could do what it
    liked.

    I have never promoted FPP as an ideal system, but it is better than
    MMP which puts people in parliament who have no public mandate and are motivated only by party loyalty.

    The MPs who get into the House have a mandate, as they got enough votes
    under the present system.

    The matter of the need a list under MMP is the greatest flaw. To my mind
    these people have not been voted in. They are just gap fillers, needed to
    get the party numbers right.

    MMP was sold to a gullible public by
    the media. STV seems to be a far better system than either of these.
    No voting system is perfect, but MMP was a retrograte step in this
    country's politcal history, particularly since the racist Maori seats
    still exist, and which MMP should have rendered unnecessary.

    STV has many advantages but has the complexity to bamboozle the average
    voter. It is cam in for a few of the local elections so there is hope that
    it will spread.
    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that >>>the two never amalgamate.

    Forming a coalition Government is not amalgamation and never will be.

    It would be if the two major parties unified and formed a government.
    Who could stand against it?

    MMP has taken us exactly where it was supposed to - proportional >>representation in Parliament and is a huge improvement over what
    happened with the Muldoon and Lange governments.

    It's not though. A small party has the ability to hold a government to ransom. That is not proportional representation.

    That maybe the case but the minor partner(s) are there to avocate for those voters who voted for them.


    MMP is not perfect and does need tweaking, but reverting to FPP is
    most certainly the preserve only of dictator-style minority
    government.

    Where have I ever advocated a return to FPP? The most obvious tweak
    would be to get rid of the Maori seats and replace MMP with STV.

    Bill.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Thu Jan 8 11:29:05 2026
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Wed, 07 Jan 2026 05:10:17 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 10:47:25 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 01 Jan 2026 05:55:43 +1300, BR <blah@blah.blah> wrote:

    On Tue, 30 Dec 2025 16:10:11 +1300, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> >>>wrote:

    A stupid notion at first sight, but for those of us who think outside >>>>the square, along with political developments since 2023, there is an >>>>outside chance this could be considered.

    The current Government has seen 'reformist' actions come entirely from >>>>ACT and to a minor extent NZF. Inherited from the previous government >>>>is mountainous debt and shrinking revenue from a stagnant economy >>>>meaning spending outstrips revenue by some margin. The current >>>>Government have tinkered at the margins, reducing some spending on >>>>consultants downsizing some government departments, but committing to >>>>major road and rail projects. The incoming Bolger-led government in >>>>1990 was in a similar situation, but Richardson's first budget was
    very different to Willis'. Luxon is a likeable but muddle-through >>>>leader, more intent on style (quarterly targets etc) than substance >>>>(tackling economic pain), and lacking in courage.

    Labour are looking to not only leave the legacy of Ardern's leadership >>>>behind but actually jettison it completely under Hipkins. Under his >>>>leadership, they are steering a very different course with backing >>>>young GPs and Nurses to buy into co-operatively-owned medical >>>>practices. They are also steering a traditional course with new taxes >>>>(CGT) and spending it before there is revenue to support it (the CGT >>>>will not bring in significant revenues until beyond 2030, the 3 free >>>>doctors visits starts immediately). While there is a lot of policy
    not released yet by Labour, there is also not the wide gap in
    political philosophy between the two. It should be remembered that
    ACT was founded by former Labour and former National MPs (Roger
    Douglas and Derek Quigley).

    So what chance of a coalition government featuring National and Labour >>>>after the 2026 election? Assuming both parties dominate the MP count, >>>>the one with the most MPs leads, the other has a strong minority >>>>position. The opposition is all the other parties.

    For Labour in particular, if they are the largest party this gets them >>>>into Government without relying on parties who have become more >>>>extremist in recent years - the watermelons and the Tamihere party.

    For National, if they are not the largest party then retaining power
    as the minor party with Labour may well be preferred to a repeat of
    the current coalition. I acknowledge though that NZF and ACT are not >>>>as toxic to National as the watermelons and Tamihere party are to >>>>Labour.

    If Labour are the largest party after the 2026 election, exploring >>>>coalition options with National may well be vastly preferable to Hippy >>>>than coalition options with the watermelons and Tamihere party.


    --
    Crash McBash


    That would be a disaster. It is far better that they hate each other's >>>guts than for them to start kissing up to each other. They would
    conspire against the population to further their own self interest,
    and there would be no effective opposition.

    What an absurd and extreme view.

    I would rather see politicians bleating and bickering with each other
    than to see an orderly and well behaved debating chamber.
    Dictatorships have quiet parliaments.

    Hate is such a destructive emotion
    and it has no place in Parliament.

    Nevertheless, there is plenty of it on display. It seems quite evident
    that the Maori party and the greens despise those who stand in their
    way. I suspect they don't like each other very much either. Hate is
    one of those emotions that those with an unhealthy lust for political
    power have seem to have in abundance.

    'Hate' to me has always been a personal emotion. Parliament is a
    place for debate and MPs know and expect that they will encounter
    other MPs that have very different political viewpoints. That should
    never generate hatred, and I doubt that it does for Maori Party MPs.
    Being disruptive and performing Haka on in the debating chamber are
    not examples of hate, but examples of disrespect and political
    posture. A Haka is itself non-violent posturing.

    There is an unpleasant quirk in human nature that is particularly
    strong in some people (not all, but certainly far too many). The
    desire to control other people and boss them around. Politics
    represens a very attractive carreer path for such people, and they are
    over represented in the politics of every country. The default
    political system is dictatorship. You only have to look at the vast
    majority of governments around the world to see evidence of that. >Representative government is very fragile, and a grand coalition
    formed out of the gutless and evil politicians that make up a
    significant part of today's parliament would be very difficult to get
    rid of.

    Governments are elected to govern - to do what they said they would in
    policy announcements prior to the election. Dictatorship is unlimited
    power that comes with no future free elections.

    Having said that I agree that
    there are no longer any insurmountable policy hurdles between National
    and Labour, and a 2-party dominant coalition has advantages in terms
    of a contest of ideas.

    I suspect that any coalition formed between National and Labour would
    feature the worst aspects of both parties.

    There are only two political stripes. Rich80105 used to blather on
    about a 2 dimensional political compass, but the political spectrum is
    a one dimensional line, with big controlling government at one end and
    small, core-function focused government at the other. All political
    parties are either in favour of more taxes, regulations and
    restrictions, or the opposite. There is no political system, either
    real or conceived, that does not have a place on this like somewhere.

    That is a particularly restricted viewpoint. The current Government
    has reduced income taxes and done nothing to reduce the size of
    Government (as you put it). The reality is that NZ Governments are
    far more nuanced than you portray.

    The fact that this is even remotely possible shows what a disaster MMP >>>has been for this country.

    MMP has delivered us from single-party minority Governments. With
    every Parliament elected under FPP since the emergence of political >>parties, the government was formed by the party that won the most
    seats, and in every case most voters did not vote for that party.
    Despite this lack of popular support, that party could do what it
    liked.

    I have never promoted FPP as an ideal system, but it is better than
    MMP which puts people in parliament who have no public mandate

    List MPs were elected through the party vote. That is why there are
    no Maori Party list MPs - almost no-one party-voted for them.

    and are
    motivated only by party loyalty. MMP was sold to a gullible public by
    the media.

    The public is not gullible. There was a well-funded anti-MMP campaign
    run at the time prior to the second referendum (FPP vs MMP) run with
    the 1993 general election.

    STV seems to be a far better system than either of these.
    No voting system is perfect, but MMP was a retrograte step in this
    country's politcal history, particularly since the racist Maori seats
    still exist, and which MMP should have rendered unnecessary.

    Here we agree. I would be happy for STV to be considered, with all
    MPs being electorate representatives but with the proviso that
    electorates are far smaller than currently.

    New Zealand has arrived at the place MMP was always going to take us.
    An electoral choice between villainy and gutlessness. Let us hope that >>>the two never amalgamate.

    Forming a coalition Government is not amalgamation and never will be.

    It would be if the two major parties unified and formed a government.
    Who could stand against it?

    A coalition of National and Labour is no different to the current
    coalition. With the current Parliament all 3 parties have policy
    positions of their own. The coalition agreements set that Government
    agenda, with some initiatives coming from the minor parties (hint -
    the Treaty Principles bill an ACT initiative), and the Peters party
    will vote against the FTA with India.

    MMP has taken us exactly where it was supposed to - proportional >>representation in Parliament and is a huge improvement over what
    happened with the Muldoon and Lange governments.

    It's not though. A small party has the ability to hold a government to >ransom. That is not proportional representation.

    Yes it is - it is exactly what the party voters decided, modified only
    by the 5% threshold.

    MMP is not perfect and does need tweaking, but reverting to FPP is
    most certainly the preserve only of dictator-style minority
    government.

    Where have I ever advocated a return to FPP? The most obvious tweak
    would be to get rid of the Maori seats and replace MMP with STV.

    I would also support any party that proposes STV be considered as an
    MMP replacement.
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2