• The Maori Party in Governmnet?

    From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Thu Oct 9 21:36:05 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/09/te-pati-maori-must-walk-away-from-any-aspiration-to-govern/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dbd037664f-Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-41c1b1e3d3-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025%29&mc_cid=dbd037664f&mc_eid=67296b087d

    This article clearly spells out the pros and cons for the Maori Party
    being in a government. Their co-leaders would do well to read and
    understand that article. After the coalition agreement is done, they
    are bound by it for as long as the Government survives. Don't like
    being dependent on Labour/Watermelons as a minor player? Tough luck
    folks because outside the bounds of the negotiated coalition agreement
    you have no power. With snap elections, minor parties that cause them
    do not do well, and Labour will forever think they have a chance with
    a snap election to take back the Maori seats.
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mutley@mutley2000@hotmail.com to nz.general on Fri Oct 10 08:54:27 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/09/te-pati-maori-must-walk-away-from-any-aspiration-to-govern/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dbd037664f-Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-41c1b1e3d3-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025%29&mc_cid=dbd037664f&mc_eid=67296b087d

    This article clearly spells out the pros and cons for the Maori Party
    being in a government. Their co-leaders would do well to read and
    understand that article. After the coalition agreement is done, they
    are bound by it for as long as the Government survives. Don't like
    being dependent on Labour/Watermelons as a minor player? Tough luck
    folks because outside the bounds of the negotiated coalition agreement
    you have no power. With snap elections, minor parties that cause them
    do not do well, and Labour will forever think they have a chance with
    a snap election to take back the Maori seats.

    Pay walled.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Crash@nogood@dontbother.invalid to nz.general on Fri Oct 10 10:06:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 08:54:27 +1300, Mutley <mutley2000@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/09/te-pati-maori-must-walk-away-from-any-aspiration-to-govern/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dbd037664f-Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-41c1b1e3d3-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025%29&mc_cid=dbd037664f&mc_eid=67296b087d

    This article clearly spells out the pros and cons for the Maori Party
    being in a government. Their co-leaders would do well to read and >>understand that article. After the coalition agreement is done, they
    are bound by it for as long as the Government survives. Don't like
    being dependent on Labour/Watermelons as a minor player? Tough luck
    folks because outside the bounds of the negotiated coalition agreement
    you have no power. With snap elections, minor parties that cause them
    do not do well, and Labour will forever think they have a chance with
    a snap election to take back the Maori seats.

    Pay walled.

    My apologies - I did not check. Here is the article written by Peter
    Dunne:
    -----
    Recent ructions within Te Pati Maori, culminating in the Toitu Te
    Tiriti movement cutting its ties with the party, have raised questions
    about how it might function, were it to become part of a centre-left
    government after next yearAs election.

    Already, Chris Hipkins has distanced Labour from what has been
    happening, saying Te Pati Maori needs to sort itself out, and that it
    appears to be a olong way awayo from being able to play a role in a
    future government.

    But he has left the door ajar to the possibility of Te Pati Maori
    joining a Labour-led government, knowing that without it the chances
    of Labour (and the Green Party) having the numbers to take control of
    the Treasury benches next year are minimal.

    Two more fundamental issues arise from these events u first, what are
    Te Pati MaoriAs longer-term ambitions about being part of a
    government. And second, how does Labour manage u let alone sell to its
    more conservative supporters u the prospect of having to work with Te
    Pati Maori to form a government?

    It is not immediately obvious that Te Pati Maori even wants to be a
    party of government, as either a confidence and supply partner or a
    full member of a formal coalition. Though the party has made it clear
    it has no desire to sustain a National-led government in office like
    the previous Maori Party, its intentions towards Labour seem more
    ambiguous.

    Te Pati Maori will be mindful of the experience of the earlier Maori
    Party in its confidence and supply agreement with the last
    National-led government. While it was able to achieve significant
    policy gains u like the repeal of LabourAs foreshore and seabed
    legislation that had spawned the Maori Party in the first place, and
    the establishment of Whanau Ora u the arrangement had cost the party
    all its seats at the 2017 election.

    It will also be aware that formal coalition partners u like the
    Alliance in 2002, and NZ First in 1999 and 2020 u have suffered
    heavily after a term in government. It will be wary of risking a
    similar fate in the future.

    Te Pati Maori could therefore decide that the best way of securing its long-term political future is to stay out of any coalition, or
    confidence and supply arrangements, and sit independently on
    ParliamentAs cross-benches. If a Labour-led government required its
    support to pass specific government legislation, it would have to
    negotiate directly with Te Pati Maori on a case-by-case basis, or risk
    defeat.

    While Te Pati MaoriAs antipathy towards National and especially ACT
    and New Zealand First is well-known and unlikely to change, it would
    be wrong to assume similar antipathies do not exist towards Labour.

    Party president John Tamihere has long been resentful of his treatment
    when he was an MP and minister during the Clark years. A sense of utu
    against todayAs Labour cannot be ruled out, his friendship with senior
    Labour MP Willie Jackson notwithstanding.

    Moreover, Te Pati MaoriAs ambition to fully and permanently supplant
    Labour as the dominant political voice for Maori would be better
    served by Labour remaining out-of-office and therefore politically
    ineffectual, rather than coming to office and implementing policies
    that might win back votes from Te Pati MaoriAs supporters.

    From LabourAs perspective, Te Pati Maori choosing to keep its distance
    would be the best solution of a potentially difficult conundrum.

    Labour is keen to avoid having to work at all closely with Te Pati
    Maori in government, but it also knows, given the probable numbers, it
    is extremely unlikely to be able to form a government without some
    form of relationship with Te Pati Maori.

    That very possibility contains the risk of turning away enough
    potential Labour voters to deny it the election victory it is seeking.
    But while Labour cannot afford to be overly encouraging about
    involving Te Pati Maori in some way in government, it cannot afford to
    appear too discouraging either.

    That dilemma makes it unlikely that Labour would contemplate a formal
    coalition with Te Pati Maori, and that a confidence and supply
    agreement or looser form of arrangement for support (or even
    abstention) on matters of supply could be a more realistic option.
    Even that would be fraught with challenge. A less formal arrangement
    would be much easier for Te Pati Maori to abandon, if it became
    aggrieved about an aspect of government policy.

    Faced with these difficulties, LabourAs response so far (as in so many
    other areas) has been to deflect the question by publicly ignoring it,
    so that the focus is kept on the governmentAs performance, rather than
    LabourAs challenges. Hipkins needs to keep his options open for as
    long as possible. He knows that acting too soon to rule Te Pati Maori
    in or out of government formation calculations u in whatever form u
    would be extremely unwise.

    And he also knows that National and its allies are ready to pounce the
    moment Labour makes a call about Te Pati Maori. Labour will be
    attacked hyperbolically for either having surrendered to Te Pati
    MaoriAs alleged separatist agenda, or for potentially setting up the
    type of disorganised three-way partnership National campaigned so
    successfully against in 2014. That could be just the distraction
    National needs to get its own campaign back on track.

    Therefore, the best outcome for Labour might be if Te Pati Maori
    proactively decides it does not want to be a formal part of a
    Labour-led government, but would stay on the sidelines, supporting the government as and when required in return for specific policy gains.

    That would leave Te Pati Maori free to maintain its mana and
    independence, without the taint of government, and to criticise
    without constraint. Such a move would also de-fang much of the
    centre-rightAs potential attack lines and bring the focus of the
    election campaign back to the GovernmentAs performance.

    It could prove to be the best outcome for all concerned.

    -----
    --
    Crash McBash
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Gordon@Gordon@leaf.net.nz to nz.general on Thu Oct 9 21:27:10 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    On 2025-10-09, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/09/te-pati-maori-must-walk-away-from-any-aspiration-to-govern/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dbd037664f-Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-41c1b1e3d3-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025%29&mc_cid=dbd037664f&mc_eid=67296b087d

    This article clearly spells out the pros and cons for the Maori Party
    being in a government. Their co-leaders would do well to read and
    understand that article. After the coalition agreement is done, they
    are bound by it for as long as the Government survives. Don't like
    being dependent on Labour/Watermelons as a minor player? Tough luck
    folks because outside the bounds of the negotiated coalition agreement
    you have no power. With snap elections, minor parties that cause them
    do not do well, and Labour will forever think they have a chance with
    a snap election to take back the Maori seats.

    They may also wish to study and understand how the present Coalition Government is functioning with two minor parties without scrapping in public and staying the term.

    MMP is about the minor views of the public being considered. This has been
    the case since the Old Greens agreed to supporting Labour as long as Labour would support would support the Green Bill.

    A minor party can not rule the House as they do not have the numbers.
    However they can get Bills into the House which otherwise would not happen,
    and in doing so create a better Government.

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mutley@mutley2000@hotmail.com to nz.general on Sat Oct 11 13:28:52 2025
    From Newsgroup: nz.general

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:

    On Fri, 10 Oct 2025 08:54:27 +1300, Mutley <mutley2000@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid> wrote:
    https://newsroom.co.nz/2025/10/09/te-pati-maori-must-walk-away-from-any-aspiration-to-govern/?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=dbd037664f-Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_-41c1b1e3d3-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&ct=t%28Newsroom+Pro+8+Things+09.10.2025%29&mc_cid=dbd037664f&mc_eid=67296b087d

    This article clearly spells out the pros and cons for the Maori Party >>>being in a government. Their co-leaders would do well to read and >>>understand that article. After the coalition agreement is done, they
    are bound by it for as long as the Government survives. Don't like
    being dependent on Labour/Watermelons as a minor player? Tough luck >>>folks because outside the bounds of the negotiated coalition agreement >>>you have no power. With snap elections, minor parties that cause them
    do not do well, and Labour will forever think they have a chance with
    a snap election to take back the Maori seats.

    Pay walled.

    My apologies - I did not check. Here is the article written by Peter
    Dunne:
    -----
    Recent ructions within Te Pati Maori, culminating in the Toitu Te
    Tiriti movement cutting its ties with the party, have raised questions
    about how it might function, were it to become part of a centre-left >government after next yearAs election.

    Already, Chris Hipkins has distanced Labour from what has been
    happening, saying Te Pati Maori needs to sort itself out, and that it
    appears to be a olong way awayo from being able to play a role in a
    future government.

    But he has left the door ajar to the possibility of Te Pati Maori
    joining a Labour-led government, knowing that without it the chances
    of Labour (and the Green Party) having the numbers to take control of
    the Treasury benches next year are minimal.

    Two more fundamental issues arise from these events u first, what are
    Te Pati MaoriAs longer-term ambitions about being part of a
    government. And second, how does Labour manage u let alone sell to its
    more conservative supporters u the prospect of having to work with Te
    Pati Maori to form a government?

    It is not immediately obvious that Te Pati Maori even wants to be a
    party of government, as either a confidence and supply partner or a
    full member of a formal coalition. Though the party has made it clear
    it has no desire to sustain a National-led government in office like
    the previous Maori Party, its intentions towards Labour seem more
    ambiguous.

    Te Pati Maori will be mindful of the experience of the earlier Maori
    Party in its confidence and supply agreement with the last
    National-led government. While it was able to achieve significant
    policy gains u like the repeal of LabourAs foreshore and seabed
    legislation that had spawned the Maori Party in the first place, and
    the establishment of Whanau Ora u the arrangement had cost the party
    all its seats at the 2017 election.

    It will also be aware that formal coalition partners u like the
    Alliance in 2002, and NZ First in 1999 and 2020 u have suffered
    heavily after a term in government. It will be wary of risking a
    similar fate in the future.

    Te Pati Maori could therefore decide that the best way of securing its >long-term political future is to stay out of any coalition, or
    confidence and supply arrangements, and sit independently on
    ParliamentAs cross-benches. If a Labour-led government required its
    support to pass specific government legislation, it would have to
    negotiate directly with Te Pati Maori on a case-by-case basis, or risk >defeat.

    While Te Pati MaoriAs antipathy towards National and especially ACT
    and New Zealand First is well-known and unlikely to change, it would
    be wrong to assume similar antipathies do not exist towards Labour.

    Party president John Tamihere has long been resentful of his treatment
    when he was an MP and minister during the Clark years. A sense of utu
    against todayAs Labour cannot be ruled out, his friendship with senior
    Labour MP Willie Jackson notwithstanding.

    Moreover, Te Pati MaoriAs ambition to fully and permanently supplant
    Labour as the dominant political voice for Maori would be better
    served by Labour remaining out-of-office and therefore politically >ineffectual, rather than coming to office and implementing policies
    that might win back votes from Te Pati MaoriAs supporters.

    From LabourAs perspective, Te Pati Maori choosing to keep its distance
    would be the best solution of a potentially difficult conundrum.

    Labour is keen to avoid having to work at all closely with Te Pati
    Maori in government, but it also knows, given the probable numbers, it
    is extremely unlikely to be able to form a government without some
    form of relationship with Te Pati Maori.

    That very possibility contains the risk of turning away enough
    potential Labour voters to deny it the election victory it is seeking.
    But while Labour cannot afford to be overly encouraging about
    involving Te Pati Maori in some way in government, it cannot afford to
    appear too discouraging either.

    That dilemma makes it unlikely that Labour would contemplate a formal >coalition with Te Pati Maori, and that a confidence and supply
    agreement or looser form of arrangement for support (or even
    abstention) on matters of supply could be a more realistic option.
    Even that would be fraught with challenge. A less formal arrangement
    would be much easier for Te Pati Maori to abandon, if it became
    aggrieved about an aspect of government policy.

    Faced with these difficulties, LabourAs response so far (as in so many
    other areas) has been to deflect the question by publicly ignoring it,
    so that the focus is kept on the governmentAs performance, rather than >LabourAs challenges. Hipkins needs to keep his options open for as
    long as possible. He knows that acting too soon to rule Te Pati Maori
    in or out of government formation calculations u in whatever form u
    would be extremely unwise.

    And he also knows that National and its allies are ready to pounce the
    moment Labour makes a call about Te Pati Maori. Labour will be
    attacked hyperbolically for either having surrendered to Te Pati
    MaoriAs alleged separatist agenda, or for potentially setting up the
    type of disorganised three-way partnership National campaigned so >successfully against in 2014. That could be just the distraction
    National needs to get its own campaign back on track.

    Therefore, the best outcome for Labour might be if Te Pati Maori
    proactively decides it does not want to be a formal part of a
    Labour-led government, but would stay on the sidelines, supporting the >government as and when required in return for specific policy gains.

    That would leave Te Pati Maori free to maintain its mana and
    independence, without the taint of government, and to criticise
    without constraint. Such a move would also de-fang much of the
    centre-rightAs potential attack lines and bring the focus of the
    election campaign back to the GovernmentAs performance.

    It could prove to be the best outcome for all concerned.

    -----
    Thank you for that.
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2