From Newsgroup: nz.general

https://matuakahurangi.com/p/colonisation-was-liberation
How refreshing.
And while we are at it -
https://matuakahurangi.com/p/te-pati-maori-are-racists
Calling it as it is.
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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 2025-09-17, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://matuakahurangi.com/p/colonisation-was-liberation
How refreshing.
And while we are at it - https://matuakahurangi.com/p/te-pati-maori-are-racists
Calling it as it is.

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came
to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and along which lines.

They might have evolved into a peaceful race living in harmony with nature.
Or would it be something different.

We also have to acknowledge that the Western world life was not the same as
at it is to-day. Education, and health care were no where the same. The
energy to allow the better standard of life to evolve in the form of cheap
oil was still underground.

The industrial revolution has just begun 200 years ago. Things were very different then compared to to-day.

The important points is How were the Maori treated with the standard of the time and what is needed to transistion to a country in which civilised discussion of the issues is all that happens to sort things out.
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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 2025-09-17 23:12:06 +0000, Gordon said:

On 2025-09-17, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://matuakahurangi.com/p/colonisation-was-liberation
How refreshing.
And while we are at it -
https://matuakahurangi.com/p/te-pati-maori-are-racists
Calling it as it is.

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and along which lines.

They might have evolved into a peaceful race living in harmony with nature. Or would it be something different.

Depends on how you define "no white settlers". If the Maori had
continued to in solitary with no contact with other countries, then
they would still be living in huts and probably fighting among
themselves ... much like other tribes of indigenous people in places
like South America and Papua New Guinea who have never had contact with
the outside world.

We also have to acknowledge that the Western world life was not the same as at it is to-day. Education, and health care were no where the same. The energy to allow the better standard of life to evolve in the form of cheap oil was still underground.

The industrial revolution has just begun 200 years ago. Things were very different then compared to to-day.

The important points is How were the Maori treated with the standard of the time and what is needed to transistion to a country in which civilised discussion of the issues is all that happens to sort things out.

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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 17 Sep 2025 23:12:06 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2025-09-17, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://matuakahurangi.com/p/colonisation-was-liberation
How refreshing.
And while we are at it -
https://matuakahurangi.com/p/te-pati-maori-are-racists
Calling it as it is.

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came >to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and >along which lines.

They might have evolved into a peaceful race living in harmony with nature. >Or would it be something different.

There is no way that NZ would remain populated only by Maori.
Europeans would have arrived sooner or later. Given that British
colonisation remained largely the same (benevolent settlement with
military might) practices well into the 20th century, the results
would have largely been the same.

We also have to acknowledge that the Western world life was not the same as >at it is to-day. Education, and health care were no where the same. The >energy to allow the better standard of life to evolve in the form of cheap >oil was still underground.

The industrial revolution has just begun 200 years ago. Things were very >different then compared to to-day.

The important points is How were the Maori treated with the standard of the >time and what is needed to transistion to a country in which civilised >discussion of the issues is all that happens to sort things out.

That is an impossible dream. Maori are now well-integrated into a
society whose structure came entirely from the colonisers. While
there was no doubt unjustified military suppression meted out to Maori
by the early colonialist government, the Waitangi Tribunal has ensured
that the grievance industry this generated is alive and not only well
but thriving.
--
Crash McBash
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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 2025-09-18 02:04:30 +0000, Crash said:

On 17 Sep 2025 23:12:06 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

On 2025-09-17, Tony <lizandtony@orcon.net.nz> wrote:

https://matuakahurangi.com/p/colonisation-was-liberation
How refreshing.
And while we are at it -
https://matuakahurangi.com/p/te-pati-maori-are-racists
Calling it as it is.

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came >> to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and >> along which lines.

They might have evolved into a peaceful race living in harmony with nature. >> Or would it be something different.

There is no way that NZ would remain populated only by Maori.
Europeans would have arrived sooner or later. Given that British colonisation remained largely the same (benevolent settlement with
military might) practices well into the 20th century, the results
would have largely been the same.

We also have to acknowledge that the Western world life was not the same as >> at it is to-day. Education, and health care were no where the same. The
energy to allow the better standard of life to evolve in the form of cheap >> oil was still underground.

The industrial revolution has just begun 200 years ago. Things were very
different then compared to to-day.

The important points is How were the Maori treated with the standard of the >> time and what is needed to transistion to a country in which civilised
discussion of the issues is all that happens to sort things out.

That is an impossible dream. Maori are now well-integrated into a
society whose structure came entirely from the colonisers. While
there was no doubt unjustified military suppression meted out to Maori
by the early colonialist government, the Waitangi Tribunal has ensured
that the grievance industry this generated is alive and not only well
but thriving.

Considering that the various Maori tribes were at war with each other
(and the Moriori), at least some of that land, etc. that has been
"returned" probably needs to be further returned to someone else
further down the historical list.



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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 17 Sep 2025 23:12:06 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came >to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and >along which lines.

My own thought experiment is how NZ colonisation would have gone had
the Maori not reached here first. Only the true Tangata Whenua -- the
Moas -- would be here to greet Tasman. The Dutch would probably have
come here in numbers.

It is a conceit for many Maori to favor native plants, excluding all
European imports. The conceit is that Maori consider themselves to be
Tangata Whenua, but they are not, having come here only 800 years ago.
The Moa and endemic creatures were here for 50 million years (counting
their earlier evolutionary analogues).

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From Newsgroup: nz.general

On 2025-09-18 03:24:53 +0000, Willy Nilly said:

On 17 Sep 2025 23:12:06 GMT, Gordon <Gordon@leaf.net.nz> wrote:

In respect to the first. As a thought experiement, if no white settlers came >> to NZ what would NZ look like to-day. How far would the Maori developed and >> along which lines.

My own thought experiment is how NZ colonisation would have gone had
the Maori not reached here first. Only the true Tangata Whenua -- the
Moas -- would be here to greet Tasman. The Dutch would probably have
come here in numbers.

It is a conceit for many Maori to favor native plants, excluding all
European imports. The conceit is that Maori consider themselves to be Tangata Whenua, but they are not, having come here only 800 years ago.
The Moa and endemic creatures were here for 50 million years (counting
their earlier evolutionary analogues).

There are theories (mostly wacky ones) that the ancient Greeks and/or
Romans visited Australia and New Zealand long before the Maori arrived.
:-)


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