From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.stable

On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 07:52:55AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
! On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:45rC>AM Peter 'PMc' Much <
! pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org> wrote:
!
! > Sorry, what kind of "side attack" are You talking about?
! >
!
! Hot button political issue causing professional info warriors to launch
! harassment campaigns against members of the project. Needless to say, it's
! a bit stressful, even though I'm not in the main path of these attacks. You
! never know what the other fellow's day has been like.
Okay, then I'm probably not involved, since my political issues mainly
circle about building bicycle lanes in our village...
! Also, I hadn't intended anything I did around the boot loader to be secret.
! I made a mistake in not documenting the change thoroughly enough, though
! it's easily remedied by building a custom loader. In hindsight somebody
! should have caught it.
Well, from the viewpoint of the observer it appears quite strange:
One finally finds this brief release note, which typically was skipped
for irrelevance on first read, and notices that it actually is very
relevant.
Then one starts to wonder: sponsored by Netflix? This is not a
development or bugfixing effort needing sponsorship. It is just
changing a compile time option.
Is Netflix now uncapable of compiling the sources by themselves with
whatever options they would like to have? And do we all have to
follwo along the changes they impose, only because they can wave
with a chequebook?
I do *NOT* say that would be the truth! It is just the THOUGHTS that
come up from the available input (or lack thereof).
In fact, I for my part have no idea what the majority of users
might prefer to have in the loader. I don't even know any longer what
the majority is actually doing.
In the last century we had user-groups, we were meeting once a week,
we talked about and knew almost everything - but this has gone away
with the advent of "social media" :(
cheerio,
PMc
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From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.stable

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On Thu, Sep 18, 2025 at 6:36=E2=80=AFAM Peter 'PMc' Much < pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 07:52:55AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
! On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:45=E2=80=AFAM Peter 'PMc' Much <
! pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org> wrote:
!
! > Sorry, what kind of "side attack" are You talking about?
! >
!
! Hot button political issue causing professional info warriors to launch
! harassment campaigns against members of the project. Needless to say,
it's
! a bit stressful, even though I'm not in the main path of these attacks.
You
! never know what the other fellow's day has been like.

Okay, then I'm probably not involved, since my political issues mainly
circle about building bicycle lanes in our village...

! Also, I hadn't intended anything I did around the boot loader to be
secret.
! I made a mistake in not documenting the change thoroughly enough, thoug=

h

! it's easily remedied by building a custom loader. In hindsight somebody
! should have caught it.

Well, from the viewpoint of the observer it appears quite strange:
One finally finds this brief release note, which typically was skipped
for irrelevance on first read, and notices that it actually is very
relevant.

Then one starts to wonder: sponsored by Netflix? This is not a
development or bugfixing effort needing sponsorship. It is just
changing a compile time option.
Is Netflix now uncapable of compiling the sources by themselves with
whatever options they would like to have? And do we all have to
follwo along the changes they impose, only because they can wave
with a chequebook?

This doesn't follow, and is gratuitously insulting. The setting / feature
was changed in the best interest of the largest number of users in the community as BIOS booting starts to sunset. ZFS keeps growing, and we need
the space so that we don't have silent failures on some OpenZFS imports
that bring in a newer compression or crypto algorithm that gets too close
to the line (there's not an exact hard limit due to runtime stack usage
being a factor).

Netflix pays me to maintain the boot loader. Part of that is to make sure
it works for the largest number of people. BIOS has a hard limit, and after consultation with others in the community, we made the hard choice here.
See the discussion at https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2024-October/000792.html
This wasn't a convenience for Netflix: We build FreeBSD with dozens of
options for our systems. One more would take me less time to add/remove
than it took me to write this paragraph.

I do *NOT* say that would be the truth! It is just the THOUGHTS that

come up from the available input (or lack thereof).

Not all thoughts need to be shared. We're a community and in this together. Sharing thoughts that allege bad faith or bad dealing is corrosive to the community, especially when done so without any real evidence of motivation.

Warner

In fact, I for my part have no idea what the majority of users
might prefer to have in the loader. I don't even know any longer what
the majority is actually doing.
In the last century we had user-groups, we were meeting once a week,
we talked about and knew almost everything - but this has gone away
with the advent of "social media" :(

cheerio,
PMc

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g= mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 18,=
2025 at 6:36=E2=80=AFAM Peter &#39;PMc&#39; Much &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pmc= @citylink.dinoex.sub.org">pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></d= iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord= er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 a=
t 07:52:55AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:<br>
! On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:45=E2=80=AFAM Peter &#39;PMc&#39; Much &lt;<br>
! <a href=3D"mailto:pmc@citylink.dinoex.sub.org" target=3D"_blank">pmc@city= link.dinoex.sub.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
! <br>
! &gt; Sorry, what kind of &quot;side attack&quot; are You talking about?<b=

! &gt;<br>
! <br>
! Hot button political issue causing professional info warriors to launch<b=

! harassment campaigns against members of the project. Needless to say, it&= #39;s<br>
! a bit stressful, even though I&#39;m not in the main path of these attack=
s. You<br>
! never know what the other fellow&#39;s day has been like.<br>

Okay, then I&#39;m probably not involved, since my political issues mainly<=

circle about building bicycle lanes in our village...<br>

! Also, I hadn&#39;t intended anything I did around the boot loader to be s= ecret.<br>
! I made a mistake in not documenting the change thoroughly enough, though<=

! it&#39;s easily remedied by building a custom loader. In hindsight somebo= dy<br>
! should have caught it.<br>

Well, from the viewpoint of the observer it appears quite strange:<br>
One finally finds this brief release note, which typically was skipped<br>
for irrelevance on first read, and notices that it actually is very<br> relevant. <br>

Then one starts to wonder: sponsored by Netflix? This is not a<br>
development or bugfixing effort needing sponsorship. It is just<br>
changing a compile time option.<br>
Is Netflix now uncapable of compiling the sources by themselves with<br> whatever options they would like to have? And do we all have to<br>
follwo along the changes they impose, only because they can wave<br>
with a chequebook?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This doesn&#39;t fol= low, and is gratuitously=C2=A0insulting. The setting / feature was changed =
in the best interest of the largest number of users in the community as BIO=
S booting starts to sunset. ZFS keeps growing, and we need the space so tha=
t we don&#39;t have silent failures on some OpenZFS imports that bring in a=
newer compression or crypto algorithm that gets too close to the line (the= re&#39;s not an exact hard limit due to runtime stack usage being a factor)= .</div><div><br></div><div>Netflix pays me to maintain the boot loader. Par=
t of that is to make sure it works for the largest number of people. BIOS h=
as a hard limit, and after consultation with others in the community, we ma=
de the hard choice here. See the discussion at <a href=3D"https://lists.fre= ebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2024-October/000792.html">https://lists.free= bsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch/2024-October/000792.html</a> This wasn&#39;t =
a convenience for Netflix: We build FreeBSD with dozens of options for our = systems. One more would take me less time to add/remove than it took me to = write this paragraph.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p= adding-left:1ex">I do *NOT* say that would be the truth! It is just the THO= UGHTS that<br>
come up from the available input (or lack thereof).<br></blockquote><div><b= r></div><div>Not all thoughts need to be shared. We&#39;re a community and =
in this together. Sharing thoughts that allege bad faith or bad dealing is = corrosive to the community, especially when done so without any real eviden=
ce of motivation.</div><div><br></div><div>Warner</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bl= ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef= t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
In fact, I for my part have no idea what the majority of users<br>
might prefer to have in the loader. I don&#39;t even know any longer what<b=

the majority is actually doing.<br>
In the last century we had user-groups, we were meeting once a week,<br>
we talked about and knew almost everything - but this has gone away<br>
with the advent of &quot;social media&quot; :(<br>


cheerio,<br>
PMc<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From Newsgroup: muc.lists.freebsd.stable

how do we avoid stepping on that rake?
this always tends come up every so often
decisions get made, noone tells, until it goes live
local governmental processes are very good at this. but here it is quite similar
local governmental process that made someone very pissed in my town was when trying to drive a car out of front gate, it wasn't possible as someone started digging there seemingly out of nowhere just a ~hour earlier
while at national level, it was told that taxes won't go up, later they did and reason to lie on live video was supposedly that this was unpopular decision. what it looked like, was giving a middle finger
i was reading at that bootloader story and apparently it has going on for a long time in many variations. until it slapped someone in the face so to say. oh and reactions would be similar with irl slaps. either no reaction or last thing you ever did. fortunately you can't kill anyone via tcp/ip yet
i'm giving up on that video issue i have i think. somehow the vt needs to reset video despite resolution is same and that's it. user experience of that is a broken system. could be technical marvel
i think many don't even talk about all the issues they encounter. that doesn't mean they accept it. they could insult the decisionmakers behind they backs, including the fact that it wasn't allowed to tell it. the fact that fbsd also has some kind of coc now doesn't do anything to those "dinner table" talks
no way to fix, eh, isn't it?
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