With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and
others.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
A case in point - and this does not apply generally[1] to Android is
Passkeys, the growing secure login method for a rapidly growing number
of sites.
On Apple, the same Passkey one has set up from any of his iCloud linked
accounts is near instantly available via iCloud/Passwords on his other
devices that have secure login (biometric or password guarded: ie on my
Mac it's fingerprint, Phone:FaceID). No special app needed - it's in
the bones of iOS, MacOS, etc.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. Everything works together. Something Arlen will never admit - or even understand.
Because Troll.
Smooth sailing at the Apple Country Club. A gated facility with free
access to the wilder world outside.
[1] This is possible on an Android phone - via "Google Password Manager"
in Chrome. Eeeeeiiii ! What a stinkin' plop of proposition that is!
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>> others.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51rC>PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
No we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. Everything
works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows nothing about
iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even know how
the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple. Neither
does the SMB Server app.
You REALLY do prattle on, don't you? Why don't you start ANOTHER topic
where you talk to yourself?
Delusional nonsense snipped.
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51rC>PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
No we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows nothing about iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even know how the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple. Neither does the SMB Server app.
You REALLY do prattle on, don't you? Why don't you start ANOTHER topic where you talk to yourself?
Delusional nonsense snipped.
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51rC>PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
No we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows nothing about iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even know how the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple. Neither does the SMB Server app.
You REALLY do prattle on, don't you? Why don't you start ANOTHER topic where you talk to yourself?
Delusional nonsense snipped.
True, but there are plenty of tutors, teachers, and even university lecturers who believe they can and get apid for it. :-(
In high school I had a mathematics teacher who wrote "X + X = 3X" on
the blackboard as part of a bigger equation, and then spent the rest of
the one hour lesson trying to figure out where he went wrong. :-\
That was near the start of the year, and I completely ignoref the fool
for the rest of the year and went thought the text book by myself.
In university, there was a computer science lecturer who claimed that
"no personal computer can do multitasking" ... until several people
pointed out to him that the Commodore Amiga had been doing it for at
least a year by that time.
True, but there are plenty of tutors, teachers, and even university lecturers who believe they can and get apid for it. :-(
In high school I had a mathematics teacher who wrote "X + X = 3X" on
the blackboard as part of a bigger equation, and then spent the rest of
the one hour lesson trying to figure out where he went wrong. :-\
That was near the start of the year, and I completely ignoref the fool
for the rest of the year and went thought the text book by myself.
In university, there was a computer science lecturer who claimed that
"no personal computer can do multitasking" ... until several people
pointed out to him that the Commodore Amiga had been doing it for at
least a year by that time.
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51rC>PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
No we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows nothing about iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even know how the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple.
On 2025-12-25, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51'PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> >> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning fromNo we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed. >>
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience >>>>> emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows >> nothing about iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even >> know how the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand >>> iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"? >>
I remember his claim that the Files app required connecting to the Apple mothership, which is ridiculous to anyone who has actually used the
Files app to connect to a NAS or other SMB shared volume on their local network.
"Marian" doesn't know how Apple kit actually works, yet constantly calls anyone who corrects his bullshit "low-IQ" "moron" "Apple trolls" (among
other schoolyard insults). He's a piece of shit, and so is anyone who
backs him.
On 2025-12-25, Tyrone <none@none.none> wrote:
On Dec 25, 2025 at 4:07:51'PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> >> wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning fromNo we don't. Again, one can't "teach" a topic when one knows nothing about the
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed. >>
topic.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience >>>>> emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>>>> others.
I did not write the above. But it IS 100% correct.
It can be titled "These are Arlen's fantasies about iOS, because Arlen knows >> nothing about iOS since Arlen clearly has no iOS devices". He did not even >> know how the Files app worked. Which BTW, requires no login to Apple.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand >>> iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"? >>
I remember his claim that the Files app required connecting to the Apple mothership, which is ridiculous to anyone who has actually used the
Files app to connect to a NAS or other SMB shared volume on their local network.
"Marian" doesn't know how Apple kit actually works, yet constantly calls anyone who corrects his bullshit "low-IQ" "moron" "Apple trolls" (among
other schoolyard insults). He's a piece of shit, and so is anyone who
backs him.
On 2025-12-25 17:57:10 +0000, Tyrone said:
On Dec 25, 2025 at 12:10:14rC>PM EST, "Alan Browne" <bitbucket@blackhole.com>
wrote:
On 2025-12-25 11:46, Marian wrote:
...to log into the various Apple mothership tracking servers... which most >>>> Apple owners have no idea they're always tethered to... because an iOS >>>> device doesn't do much without them...
Distorted Reality message again from Arlen. Par I guess.
1) iOS runs fine w/o any connection to Apple cloud at all. Can surf the >>> web, do one's e-mail, use myriad other apps and web based services, etc.
Yep. You can easily use an iPhone, iPad, or Mac computer without any connection to the outside world at all. The iPhone will of course
simply be a small iPad / iPod Touch / digital diary rather than an
actual 'phone' (although in many places a mobile phone even without a
SIM card can still be used to call emergency services).
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually designed.
Tyrone wrote:
With ones Apple devices meshed via iCloud - and all the secure
communications and storage therein, the powerful personal experience
emerges when one daily drives a Mac/iPhone/Watch and if need be iPad and >>> others.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem.
Everything works together.
This thread can be titled any of the following to help people understand
iOS Design, and specifically "What Happens When You Refuse the Apple ID"?
iOS Design Assumptions and Apple ID Dependence
How iOS Behaves When You Decline an Apple ID
The Role of Apple ID in iOS Functionality
iOS Architecture and Mandatory Cloud Integration
iOS as a Cloud-Dependent Platform: Design or Limitation?
The Apple Ecosystem and Forced Cloud Integration
iOS Without an Apple ID: What Actually Happens
Living Signed-Out on iOS: A Technical Reality Check
iOS Prompts and Apple ID Lock-In: A Closer Look
etc.
If you refuse to sign in, like I do, then iOS will repeatedly prompt you. That part is absolutely real whether or not people are aware of it.
The system is built around the assumption that an Apple ID is always
present, so if you decline to provide one, you end up in a permanent "incomplete setup" state that keeps resurfacing.
Obviously iOS relies heavily on Apple ID for syncing, App Store access, iMessage, FaceTime, passkeys, and almost every other integrated feature.
So yes, once you are signed into the Cupertino servers, "everything works together" because the device is designed to treat the cloud services as
the center of gravity. The local device becomes the interface layer for
that larger system.
Once you're signed in, the system handles authentication silently in the background, but hiding that sign-in does not mean it is not happening.
It simply means the prompts are suppressed because the device finally has
the credentials it keeps asking for.
If you refuse to sign in (as I have been testing for years), then you
will eventually be forced by Apple to sign in again. The system will keep trying to complete tasks that require an Apple ID, and each failure
triggers another prompt. That is not a bug. It is how the platform is designed.
And one of the clearest examples is that you cannot update apps at all
unless you are signed into an Apple ID. Even apps you already have
installed cannot be updated without logging into the Apple servers. At
the same time, the OS itself *can* be updated without an Apple ID. This
means that over time, the OS will advance while the apps remain frozen,
and eventually many of them will refuse to run because they no longer
match the newer OS requirements. This is not hypothetical. It is built
into the design.
Every common consumer ecosystem "works together" if you are willing to
stay logged into the mothership all day long. Apple simply pushes that
model harder than most.
A case in point - and this does not apply generally[1] to Android is
Passkeys, the growing secure login method for a rapidly growing number
of sites.
There are fundamental concepts that need to be stated about the locked-in nature of the Apple ecosystem, which we may need to discuss in a separate thread.
It seems we need a separate thread on the topic of how iOS is designed.
On Apple, the same Passkey one has set up from any of his iCloud linked
accounts is near instantly available via iCloud/Passwords on his other
devices that have secure login (biometric or password guarded: ie on my
Mac it's fingerprint, Phone:FaceID). No special app needed - it's in
the bones of iOS, MacOS, etc.
What needs to be taught is that iOS is designed around the assumption that the cloud is the authoritative source. Once you're signed into the Apple servers, of course things appear seamless. That is the whole point of the design. The device is not meant to operate independently of that system.
It seems we need a separate thread on the topic of how iOS is designed.
Exactly. This is the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. Everything
works
together. Something Arlen will never admit - or even understand.
What needs to be taught is that iOS devices lose major functionality when
you are not logged into the Apple servers. The platform is structured so
that the cloud account is not optional. If you decline to sign in, you
will be prompted constantly because the system is trying to complete tasks that it cannot complete without those credentials.
It seems we need a separate thread on the topic of how iOS is designed.
Because Troll.
Smooth sailing at the Apple Country Club. A gated facility with free
access to the wilder world outside.
The frequency of sign-ins to Apple's Cupertino matrix is high simply
because almost every subsystem on iOS expects an Apple ID:
App Store
iCloud
iMessage
FaceTime
Keychain / Passkeys
Find My
Device backups
App updates
Subscriptions
Apple Pay
Screen Time
Family Sharing
Photos sync
Notes sync
Safari sync
Password autofill
Two-factor prompts
System services that check entitlement status
etc.
When you're signed out, each of these tries to initialize, fails, and triggers a prompt. So the frequency I am describing is rational and predictable given the architecture.
[1] This is possible on an Android phone - via "Google Password Manager" >>> in Chrome. Eeeeeiiii ! What a stinkin' plop of proposition that is!
The fact is that iOS devices are designed around the assumption that the cloud account is always present. That is why the experience feels like a
dumb terminal when you decline to participate in that model.
Any OS can behave like iOS if you are willing to log into the mothership servers constantly. The difference is that on iOS, the design makes that model unavoidable, and if you refuse to sign in, you see the underlying mechanics exposed all day, every day, forever.
Marian wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually
designed.
To help users on this Apple newsgroup LEARN how iOS actually works, and to help further the conversation to discuss how iOS actually works, here are
the unavoidable facts based on long-term testing of iOS devices while avoiding manual Apple ID logins & avoiding Apple's cloud ecosystem as much
as possible so that the true nature of the iOS ecosystem was being tested.
1. *Device activation and Apple servers with respect to the AppleID*
-a An iOS device cannot be brought into a usable state without contacting
-a Apple's activation servers. This activation step is mandatory and is
-a separate from creating or signing into an Apple ID.
-a Even if you skip the Apple ID portion, the device must still check
-a in with Apple before setup can complete.
2. *Operating an iOS device without signing into an Apple ID*
-a It is possible to skip signing into an Apple ID during setup, but the
-a device operates in a limited state. Many system components repeatedly
-a prompt for Apple ID credentials because the OS assumes that an Apple ID
-a will eventually be provided.
3. *App updates versus OS updates with & without logging into an AppleID*
-a If you do not sign into an Apple ID, you cannot update any apps at all,
-a including apps that were already installed on the device. -a However, the OS itself can still be updated without an Apple ID. -a Over time,
this causes a mismatch where the OS continues to advance -a but the apps remain frozen.
-a Eventually, some apps stop functioning because they are no longer
-a compatible with the newer OS version.
4. *Long-term testing without manually signing into the AppleID*
-a Two different iPads were operated for roughly two years without signing
-a back into the associated Apple ID. After that period, both devices became activation-locked.
-a To regain access, it was necessary to visit Apple in person and I had
-a to present government-issued identification. After verification,
-a the devices were unlocked, and the same Apple ID credentials that
had always worked were accepted.
-a This shows that the lockout was triggered solely & unilaterally
-a by Apple's systems, not by any forgotten or incorrect password.
5. *Two-factor verification (2FV) when signing into the AppleID*
-a Apple now requires two-factor verification for Apple IDs. -a It is no longer possible to create an Apple ID without enabling 2FV.
-a Even for old grandfathered AppleIDs, once 2FV is enabled, Apple does
-a not allow 2FV/MFV to be removed after the standard waiting period
-a has passed. Attempts to operate an older device without 2FV eventually
-a result in the account being forced into 2FV with no option to revert.
6. *Attempting to initialize an iOS device without contacting Apple*
-a It is not possible to activate or initialize an iOS device entirely
-a offline. Even without creating an Apple ID, the activation step still
-a requires communication with Apple's servers.
-a Without that server contact, the device cannot complete setup.
These behaviors are not theoretical. They are the observed results of deliberately operating multiple iOS devices for extended periods without signing into an Apple ID, without enabling 2FV, and without allowing the devices to complete the cloud-dependent workflows that iOS expects.
Thus this is the true nature of how iOS really works, which I'd guess that likely one out of a million Apple owners has any inkling of understanding.
They make it attractive by offering a suite of useful services.
I LIKE that my passwords are seamlessly and securely synched across my devices.
Likewise for my:
Notes
Messages
Contacts
Calendars
Reminders
Safari bookmarks
News
Stocks
Wallet
FaceTime
Books
Maps
Etc.!
The frequency of sign-ins to Apple's Cupertino matrix is high simply
because almost every subsystem on iOS expects an Apple ID:
App Store
Which you almost certainly need.
iCloud
Which you can decline to use.
iMessage
Which you can decline to use.
FaceTime
Which you can decline to use.
Keychain / Passkeys
Which you can decline to use.
Find My
Which you can decline to use.
Device backups
Which you can decline to use.
App updates
Which is the same as "App Store"
Subscriptions
Which you can decline to use.
Apple Pay
Which you can decline to use.
Screen Time
Which you can decline to use.
Family Sharing
Which you can decline to use.
Photos sync
Which you can decline to use.
Notes sync
Which you can decline to use.
Safari sync
Which you can decline to use.
Password autofill
Which you can decline to use.
Two-factor prompts
Which you can decline to use.
On Dec 29, 2025 at 8:09:29rC>PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
They make it attractive by offering a suite of useful services.
I LIKE that my passwords are seamlessly and securely synched across my devices.
Likewise for my:
Notes
Messages
Contacts
Calendars
Reminders
Safari bookmarks
News
Stocks
Wallet
FaceTime
Books
Maps
Etc.!
Exactly. The whole point of Apple.
The frequency of sign-ins to Apple's Cupertino matrix is high simply
because almost every subsystem on iOS expects an Apple ID:
App Store
Which you almost certainly need.
iCloud
Which you can decline to use.
iMessage
Which you can decline to use.
FaceTime
Which you can decline to use.
Keychain / Passkeys
Which you can decline to use.
Find My
Which you can decline to use.
Device backups
Which you can decline to use.
App updates
Which is the same as "App Store"
Subscriptions
Which you can decline to use.
Apple Pay
Which you can decline to use.
Screen Time
Which you can decline to use.
Family Sharing
Which you can decline to use.
Photos sync
Which you can decline to use.
Notes sync
Which you can decline to use.
Safari sync
Which you can decline to use.
Password autofill
Which you can decline to use.
Two-factor prompts
Which you can decline to use.
And once you stop using all of these built-in Apple services, you would have an Android phone.
No thanks.
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple
device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or
Windoze.
On 2025-12-30 01:59:37 +0000, Tyrone said:
On Dec 29, 2025 at 8:09:29rC>PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
They make it attractive by offering a suite of useful services.
I LIKE that my passwords are seamlessly and securely synched across
my devices.
Likewise for my:
Notes
Messages
Contacts
Calendars
Reminders
Safari bookmarks
News
Stocks
Wallet
FaceTime
Books
Maps
Etc.!
Exactly.-a-a The whole point of Apple.
Well, not the "whole point" ... personally I only have one device (a
desktop Mac) and do not use any of the iCloud stuff. We also have an
iPad, but that is used by someone else so is separate (although does use
my Apple ID for ease of my being the "tech support" for system
updates).-a :-)
The frequency of sign-ins to Apple's Cupertino matrix is high simply
because almost every subsystem on iOS expects an Apple ID:
App Store
Which you almost certainly need.
Only if you want to install other apps or any updates, which isn't a necessity for many people.
iCloud
Which you can decline to use.
iMessage
Which you can decline to use.
FaceTime
Which you can decline to use.
Keychain / Passkeys
Which you can decline to use.
Find My
Which you can decline to use.
Device backups
Which you can decline to use.
App updates
Which is the same as "App Store"
Subscriptions
Which you can decline to use.
Apple Pay
Which you can decline to use.
Screen Time
Which you can decline to use.
Family Sharing
Which you can decline to use.
Photos sync
Which you can decline to use.
Notes sync
Which you can decline to use.
Safari sync
Which you can decline to use.
Password autofill
Which you can decline to use.
Two-factor prompts
Which you can decline to use.
And once you stop using all of these built-in Apple services, you
would have
an Android phone.
I've never used any of those services, other than OS updates. I simply
have zero need for them. My computer and the other person's iPad
function perfectly well.
No thanks.
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple device
then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or Windoze.
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple
device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or
Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes things easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same OS and the same apps and services. All tied together by a single cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if you ever need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android phone from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a waste of time and energy. I don't need such challenges in my personal life. I have no desire
to do systems integration for free.
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple
device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or
Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes
things
easy.-a Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same OS and
the same
apps and services. All tied together by a single cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if
you ever
need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android
phone
from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a waste
of time
and energy. I don't need such challenges in my personal life. I have
no desire
to do systems integration for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple propaganda.
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks you're
doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your email into a specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On Android it's one
step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and moving one of the files into a specific app's folder, where, on Android it's a two-tap action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of share sheets and hidden menus.
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple
device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or
Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes things >> easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same OS and the same
apps and services. All tied together by a single cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if you ever
need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android phone >> from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a waste of time >> and energy. I don't need such challenges in my personal life. I have no desire
to do systems integration for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple propaganda.
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks you're
doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your email into a specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On Android it's one
step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and moving one of the files into a specific app's folder, where, on Android it's a two-tap action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of share sheets and hidden menus.
What's easier on iOS or Android depends greatly on what you're doing.
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is easier for bidirectional file transfers, or try to load an app from anywhere outside
of the app store, or even from the app store WITHOUT an account.
Hell, try to re-install any IPA/APK of any version on Android versus iOS? What's impossible to do with iOS is trivial to do on Android in many cases.
Anyone who parrots Apple propaganda doesn't understand anything about iOS.
Try to customize your home screen, or change the default app for dialing, messaging, app launcher, file manager, assistant, camera, etc.
Android lets you set a default dialer, SMS app, launcher, assistant, camera and file manager, while iOS locks every one of those defaults to Apple.
Worse, you can't even DO on iOS half the things that you can do on Android.
There's a reason I assess anyone who parrots Apple's meaningless (but brilliant) propaganda, doesn't know anything about iOS nor about Android.
On Dec 30, 2025 at 6:49:15rC>PM MST, "Marian" wrote <10j1veq$2oai$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an
Apple device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of
Andud or Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes
things easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same
OS and the same apps and services. All tied together by a single
cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if
you ever need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android
phone from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a
waste of time and energy. I don't need such challenges in my
personal life. I have no desire to do systems integration for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple
propaganda.
Can you point to this propaganda Apple is publishing?
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a
parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
No evidence you have an iOS device.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks you're
doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your email into
a specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On Android it's
one step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
This is similar to the task I compared for macOS. Would love to see
your Android video showing how you do it. I will then show how I do a
similar task on iOS. Look forward to your video.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and moving
one of the files into a specific app's folder, where, on Android it's
a two-tap action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of share sheets and
hidden menus.
Again, show a video and I will, too. We can both learn.
What's easier on iOS or Android depends greatly on what you're doing.
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is
easier for bidirectional file transfers, or try to load an app from
anywhere outside of the app store, or even from the app store WITHOUT
an account.
You do not like security features. OK.
Hell, try to re-install any IPA/APK of any version on Android versus
iOS? What's impossible to do with iOS is trivial to do on Android in
many cases.
Anyone who parrots Apple propaganda doesn't understand anything about
iOS.
Again: please point to this propaganda Apple is posting.
Try to customize your home screen, or change the default app for
dialing, messaging, app launcher, file manager, assistant, camera,
etc.
Sure. Show how you do it in a video and I will show how on iOS.
Android lets you set a default dialer, SMS app, launcher, assistant,
camera and file manager, while iOS locks every one of those defaults
to Apple.
That is not in the slightest true. I thought you said you use iOS.
Worse, you can't even DO on iOS half the things that you can do on
Android.
Apparently you cannot make a simple video. :)
There's a reason I assess anyone who parrots Apple's meaningless (but
brilliant) propaganda, doesn't know anything about iOS nor about
Android.
Show the videos. But off you run. 100% predictable.
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in news:69548b9a$0$23$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
On Dec 30, 2025 at 6:49:15rC>PM MST, "Marian" wrote
<10j1veq$2oai$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an
Apple device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of
Andud or Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes
things easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same
OS and the same apps and services. All tied together by a single
cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if
you ever need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android
phone from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a
waste of time and energy. I don't need such challenges in my
personal life. I have no desire to do systems integration for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple
propaganda.
Can you point to this propaganda Apple is publishing?
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a
parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
No evidence you have an iOS device.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks you're
doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your email into
a specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On Android it's
one step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
This is similar to the task I compared for macOS. Would love to see
your Android video showing how you do it. I will then show how I do a
similar task on iOS. Look forward to your video.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and moving
one of the files into a specific app's folder, where, on Android it's
a two-tap action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of share sheets and
hidden menus.
Again, show a video and I will, too. We can both learn.
What's easier on iOS or Android depends greatly on what you're doing.
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is
easier for bidirectional file transfers, or try to load an app from
anywhere outside of the app store, or even from the app store WITHOUT
an account.
You do not like security features. OK.
Hell, try to re-install any IPA/APK of any version on Android versus
iOS? What's impossible to do with iOS is trivial to do on Android in
many cases.
Anyone who parrots Apple propaganda doesn't understand anything about
iOS.
Again: please point to this propaganda Apple is posting.
Try to customize your home screen, or change the default app for
dialing, messaging, app launcher, file manager, assistant, camera,
etc.
Sure. Show how you do it in a video and I will show how on iOS.
Android lets you set a default dialer, SMS app, launcher, assistant,
camera and file manager, while iOS locks every one of those defaults
to Apple.
That is not in the slightest true. I thought you said you use iOS.
Worse, you can't even DO on iOS half the things that you can do on
Android.
Apparently you cannot make a simple video. :)
There's a reason I assess anyone who parrots Apple's meaningless (but
brilliant) propaganda, doesn't know anything about iOS nor about
Android.
Show the videos. But off you run. 100% predictable.
This is a classic example of snit,
On Dec 30, 2025 at 8:03:59rC>PM MST, ""Jose' Francisco de Paula Juan
Soto"" wrote <6954929f$0$23$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
Brock McNuggets <brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com> wrote in
news:69548b9a$0$23$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com:
On Dec 30, 2025 at 6:49:15rC>PM MST, "Marian" wrote
<10j1veq$2oai$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an
Apple device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of
Andud or Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really
makes things easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running
the same OS and the same apps and services. All tied together by a
single cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point,
if you ever need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an
Android phone from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever
is just a waste of time and energy. I don't need such challenges
in my personal life. I have no desire to do systems integration
for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple
propaganda.
Can you point to this propaganda Apple is publishing?
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a
parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
No evidence you have an iOS device.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks
you're doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your
email into a specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On
Android it's one step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
This is similar to the task I compared for macOS. Would love to see
your Android video showing how you do it. I will then show how I do
a similar task on iOS. Look forward to your video.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and
moving one of the files into a specific app's folder, where, on
Android it's a two-tap action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of
share sheets and hidden menus.
Again, show a video and I will, too. We can both learn.
What's easier on iOS or Android depends greatly on what you're
doing.
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is
easier for bidirectional file transfers, or try to load an app from
anywhere outside of the app store, or even from the app store
WITHOUT an account.
You do not like security features. OK.
Hell, try to re-install any IPA/APK of any version on Android
versus iOS? What's impossible to do with iOS is trivial to do on
Android in many cases.
Anyone who parrots Apple propaganda doesn't understand anything
about iOS.
Again: please point to this propaganda Apple is posting.
Try to customize your home screen, or change the default app for
dialing, messaging, app launcher, file manager, assistant, camera,
etc.
Sure. Show how you do it in a video and I will show how on iOS.
Android lets you set a default dialer, SMS app, launcher,
assistant, camera and file manager, while iOS locks every one of
those defaults to Apple.
That is not in the slightest true. I thought you said you use iOS.
Worse, you can't even DO on iOS half the things that you can do on
Android.
Apparently you cannot make a simple video. :)
There's a reason I assess anyone who parrots Apple's meaningless
(but brilliant) propaganda, doesn't know anything about iOS nor
about Android.
Show the videos. But off you run. 100% predictable.
This is a classic example of snit,
Right... asking for evidence and offering my own. Thanks for noticing.
On 2025-12-30 17:49, Marian wrote:
Tyrone wrote:
The real reason most people use Apple devices is because they are
simply much easier to actually use. Almost everybody who uses an Apple >>>> device then does not want to go back to the awful mess of Andud or
Windoze.
Very true.
But it is the combined ecosystem of Apple devices that really makes
things
easy. Phones, tablets, PCs and watches. All running the same OS and
the same
apps and services. All tied together by a single cloud service.
To me, if you have a iPhone then you need an iPad. At that point, if
you ever
need a laptop then a Mac is the obvious choice.
A Windows (or even worse, Linux) PC from THIS company and an Android
phone
from THAT company and an Android tablet from whoever is just a waste
of time
and energy. I don't need such challenges in my personal life. I have
no desire
to do systems integration for free.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
The problem is all you're doing is parroting baseless Apple propaganda.
You don't actually understand iOS, nor Android - you're just a parrot.
I use Android & iOS all day, every day, so I understand them both.
You understand neither.
Whether iOS or Android is easier depends greatly on what tasks you're
doing. For example, try moving a downloaded PDF from your email into a
specific folder and opening it in a non-Apple app. On Android it's one
step. On iOS it's a scavenger hunt.
Nope. It's one step to save it in a specific folder.
Likewise after downloading a ZIP file on iOS, opening it, and moving one of >> the files into a specific app's folder, where, on Android it's a two-tap
action, yet on iOS it turns into a maze of share sheets and hidden menus.
Is this as accurate a claim as your claim that iOS wouldn't allow an app
to provide an SMB service on standard Windows ports?
<snip>
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is easier for bidirectional file transfers.
2. *Operating an iOS device without signing into an Apple ID*
-a-a It is possible to skip signing into an Apple ID during setup, but the >> -a-a device operates in a limited state. Many system components repeatedly >> -a-a prompt for Apple ID credentials because the OS assumes that an
Apple ID
-a-a will eventually be provided.
This is false.
I have a freshly set up iPad immediately to the left of me, and I have signed out of the Apple Account (formerly "AppleID"; get the details
right). I'll see how many prompts I get in the next day and you'll see.
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is easier for >> bidirectional file transfers.
This AGAIN? Are you drunk?
This is the 21st century. You don't NEED to "plug an iPhone into Windows". You can do Wi-Fi networking file transfers using the Files app on iOS to connect to the standard Windows networking. Both directions. As you know, I do
this all the time.
Is this as accurate a claim as your claim that iOS wouldn't allow an app
to provide an SMB service on standard Windows ports?
<snip>
Yes. Just as accurate.
On Dec 30, 2025 at 8:49:15rC>PM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
Plug an iPhone and an Android into Windows and tell me which is
easier for bidirectional file transfers.
This AGAIN? Are you drunk?
This is the 21st century. You don't NEED to "plug an iPhone into
Windows". You can do Wi-Fi networking file transfers using the Files
app on iOS to connect to the standard Windows networking. Both
directions. As you know, I do this all the time.
AND, you can install an SMB Server on iOS and do wi-fi file transfers
THAT way, from Windows File Explorer. Both directions. Remember
this?
On 2025-12-25 13:39, Marian wrote:...and I finally received a prompt!
Marian wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from
others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually
designed.
To help users on this Apple newsgroup LEARN how iOS actually works,
and to
help further the conversation to discuss how iOS actually works, here are
the unavoidable facts based on long-term testing of iOS devices while
avoiding manual Apple ID logins & avoiding Apple's cloud ecosystem as
much
as possible so that the true nature of the iOS ecosystem was being
tested.
1. *Device activation and Apple servers with respect to the AppleID*
-a-a An iOS device cannot be brought into a usable state without contacting >> -a-a Apple's activation servers. This activation step is mandatory and is
-a-a separate from creating or signing into an Apple ID.
-a-a Even if you skip the Apple ID portion, the device must still check
-a-a in with Apple before setup can complete.
So that it can be ascertained whether or not the device has been stolen.
2. *Operating an iOS device without signing into an Apple ID*
-a-a It is possible to skip signing into an Apple ID during setup, but the >> -a-a device operates in a limited state. Many system components repeatedly >> -a-a prompt for Apple ID credentials because the OS assumes that an
Apple ID
-a-a will eventually be provided.
This is false.
I have a freshly set up iPad immediately to the left of me, and I have signed out of the Apple Account (formerly "AppleID"; get the details
right). I'll see how many prompts I get in the next day and you'll see.
On 2025-12-29 17:19, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-25 13:39, Marian wrote:...and I finally received a prompt!
Marian wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from >>>> others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually
designed.
To help users on this Apple newsgroup LEARN how iOS actually works,
and to
help further the conversation to discuss how iOS actually works, here are >>> the unavoidable facts based on long-term testing of iOS devices while
avoiding manual Apple ID logins & avoiding Apple's cloud ecosystem as
much
as possible so that the true nature of the iOS ecosystem was being
tested.
1. *Device activation and Apple servers with respect to the AppleID*
An iOS device cannot be brought into a usable state without contacting >>> Apple's activation servers. This activation step is mandatory and is
separate from creating or signing into an Apple ID.
Even if you skip the Apple ID portion, the device must still check
in with Apple before setup can complete.
So that it can be ascertained whether or not the device has been stolen.
2. *Operating an iOS device without signing into an Apple ID*
It is possible to skip signing into an Apple ID during setup, but the >>> device operates in a limited state. Many system components repeatedly >>> prompt for Apple ID credentials because the OS assumes that an
Apple ID
will eventually be provided.
This is false.
I have a freshly set up iPad immediately to the left of me, and I have
signed out of the Apple Account (formerly "AppleID"; get the details
right). I'll see how many prompts I get in the next day and you'll see.
There was red badge on the Settings app, and when I opened it, there was
a suggestion (with no dire warnings at all, mind you!) that I start
using iCloud, and a few words about the advantages it offers.
I tapped "Not now" and it's gone!
:-)
On Jan 6, 2026 at 1:42:17 AM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-29 17:19, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-25 13:39, Marian wrote:...and I finally received a prompt!
Marian wrote:
It seems we need a separate thread on teaching others and learning from >>>> others more about the very important topic of how iOS is actually
designed.
To help users on this Apple newsgroup LEARN how iOS actually works,
and to
help further the conversation to discuss how iOS actually works, here are >>> the unavoidable facts based on long-term testing of iOS devices while
avoiding manual Apple ID logins & avoiding Apple's cloud ecosystem as
much
as possible so that the true nature of the iOS ecosystem was being
tested.
1. *Device activation and Apple servers with respect to the AppleID*
An iOS device cannot be brought into a usable state without contacting >>> Apple's activation servers. This activation step is mandatory and is >>> separate from creating or signing into an Apple ID.
Even if you skip the Apple ID portion, the device must still check
in with Apple before setup can complete.
So that it can be ascertained whether or not the device has been stolen. >>
2. *Operating an iOS device without signing into an Apple ID*
It is possible to skip signing into an Apple ID during setup, but the >>> device operates in a limited state. Many system components repeatedly >>> prompt for Apple ID credentials because the OS assumes that an
Apple ID
will eventually be provided.
This is false.
I have a freshly set up iPad immediately to the left of me, and I have
signed out of the Apple Account (formerly "AppleID"; get the details
right). I'll see how many prompts I get in the next day and you'll see.
There was red badge on the Settings app, and when I opened it, there was
a suggestion (with no dire warnings at all, mind you!) that I start
using iCloud, and a few words about the advantages it offers.
I tapped "Not now" and it's gone!
:-)
Wait. So you are saying that Arlen is AGAIN lying?
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this. Arlen is SUCH a fountain of info!
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
Every day, all day, my iPad asks me to sign in multiple times in a row. That's just a fact.
It's not an opinion.
It's how iOS works.
You just don't see it because when it asks, you log in.
But watch what happens when you do NOT log in.
Note: You're already logged in. Keep that in mind. You never logged out.
Yet, over time, Apple requires you to log in again. And again. And again.
Every iOS device in the world does this, Tyrone.
You simply log in when it asks you to log in, so you don't remember it.
But mine constantly asks me all day, every day, to log into my accounts.
Even though I never logged out.
Every iOS device in the world would do that too, if you did what I did.
Which you didn't do.
Because you're not testing how iOS actually works, Tyrone.
I am.
Try this to better understand how iOS actually works:
1. Initialize your iOS device on Apple's mothership tracking servers.
2. Then create an Apple Account (Apple ID) on other mothership servers.
3. Do the normal Apple-specific login steps (iCloud mail, App Store, etc.)
Then... wait... wait... wait...
Just wait.
That's all.
Wait.
Watch what happens.
Only after you do that "can" you begin to understand how iOS works.
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
Every day, all day, my iPad asks me to sign in multiple times in a row. That's just a fact.
It's not an opinion.
It's how iOS works.
You just don't see it because when it asks, you log in.
But watch what happens when you do NOT log in.
Note: You're already logged in. Keep that in mind. You never logged out.
Yet, over time, Apple requires you to log in again. And again. And again.
Every iOS device in the world does this, Tyrone.
You simply log in when it asks you to log in, so you don't remember it.
But mine constantly asks me all day, every day, to log into my accounts.
Even though I never logged out.
Every iOS device in the world would do that too, if you did what I did.
Which you didn't do.
Because you're not testing how iOS actually works, Tyrone.
I am.
Try this to better understand how iOS actually works:
1. Initialize your iOS device on Apple's mothership tracking servers.
2. Then create an Apple Account (Apple ID) on other mothership servers.
3. Do the normal Apple-specific login steps (iCloud mail, App Store, etc.)
Then... wait... wait... wait...
Just wait.
That's all.
Wait.
Watch what happens.
Only after you do that "can" you begin to understand how iOS works.
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
Every day, all day, my iPad asks me to sign in multiple times in a row. That's just a fact.
It's not an opinion.
It's how iOS works.
You just don't see it because when it asks, you log in.
But watch what happens when you do NOT log in.
Note: You're already logged in. Keep that in mind. You never logged out.
Yet, over time, Apple requires you to log in again. And again. And again.
Every iOS device in the world does this, Tyrone.
You simply log in when it asks you to log in, so you don't remember it.
But mine constantly asks me all day, every day, to log into my accounts.
Even though I never logged out.
Every iOS device in the world would do that too, if you did what I did.
Which you didn't do.
Because you're not testing how iOS actually works, Tyrone.
I am.
Try this to better understand how iOS actually works:
1. Initialize your iOS device on Apple's mothership tracking servers.
2. Then create an Apple Account (Apple ID) on other mothership servers.
3. Do the normal Apple-specific login steps (iCloud mail, App Store, etc.)
Then... wait... wait... wait...
Just wait.
That's all.
Wait.
Watch what happens.
Only after you do that "can" you begin to understand how iOS works.
Maria Sophia <mariasophia@comprehension.com> wrote:
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
Every day, all day, my iPad asks me to sign in multiple times in a row.
That's just a fact.
It's not an opinion.
It's how iOS works.
No it isn't. It's the way iOS works *for you*.
You just don't see it because when it asks, you log in.
But watch what happens when you do NOT log in.
Note: You're already logged in. Keep that in mind. You never logged out.
Yet, over time, Apple requires you to log in again. And again. And again.
Nope. Never happens here. Neither ipad nor iphone.
Every iOS device in the world does this, Tyrone.
You simply log in when it asks you to log in, so you don't remember it.
But mine constantly asks me all day, every day, to log into my accounts.
Even though I never logged out.
Clearly this is a you problem. Alan just gave an example where his device only suggested once in a week.
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
On Jan 6, 2026 at 10:10:03rC>AM EST, "Maria Sophia" <mariasophia@comprehension.com> wrote:
Tyrone wrote:
I am stunned. My head is spinning. I can't process this.
Hi Tyrone,
Happy New Year!
Of course you "can't process this", because you've never tested iOS.
I have.
That was sarcasm you moron. I don't believe a word you say.
In fact, no one does.
| Sysop: | Amessyroom |
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| D/L today: |
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